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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 27, 2003

1555

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.)

1600

The Chair

Mr. John Maloney

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Maloney

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Mr. John Maloney

The Chair

Mr. John Maloney

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. John Maloney

The Chair

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Maloney

1605

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Maloney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Maloney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.))

Mr. John Maloney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.)

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

1610

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Scott Reid

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

1615

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. Rick Borotsik

1620

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Wright (Research Officer, Library of Parliament)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. André Cyr

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. John Wright

Hon. Steve Mahoney

Mr. John Wright

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. John Wright

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. André Cyr

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. André Cyr

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Hon. Steve Mahoney

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.)

1625

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

1630

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Janko Peric

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri (Mississauga East, Lib.)

1635

1640

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

1645

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. André Cyr

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

1650

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

1655

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Ms. Albina Guarnieri

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.)

1700

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

1705

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

1710

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

1715

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. André Cyr

1720

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

1725

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

1730

Hon. Susan Whelan

1735

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

1740

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

1745

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

1750

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

1755

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Hon. Susan Whelan

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 014

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, May 27, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1555)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order.

We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment, part of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

We have with us Mr. Maloney, who is from the riding of Erie—Lincoln.

Mr. Maloney, so you know, Mr. Sears from Elections Canada has all kinds of maps—past, present, and future. You should have a laser pen. Don't blind any of us, please, it hurts.

We are here to listen to you. I will time your presentation.

Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.): I currently represent the riding in Erie—Lincoln.

º (1600)

The Chair: It is the brown line.

Mr. John Maloney: It is the brown line. It includes the communities of Fort Erie, Port Colborne, Wainfleet, Dunnville, then it cuts into West Lincoln and Lincoln.

The new riding of Welland includes the regional municipalities of Port Colborne, Wainfleet, Welland, Thorold, and a sliver of south St. Catharines.

None of these regional municipalities has a majority of the population base. To name the entire riding after one regional municipality doesn't make sense. It's unfair to those who live in the four other communities. The larger geographic area is in the southern portion of the peninsula adjacent to Lake Erie. All of the communities, with the exception of south St. Catharines, are south of the Niagara Escarpment.

I have suggested that the name Niagara South would be more appropriate than simply the name Welland. In essence, from a parochial perspective, the only person who would probably support it may be the mayor of the community of Welland.

A boundary readjustment is difficult at the best of times. To make it a smooth transition, I think that reference to any one single municipality should be removed. Niagara South, I think, is the appropriate response.

I would perhaps go on record as saying that I disagreed entirely with what the commission had done with the riding. We made representations and they didn't listen. To make a further appeal I thought was pointless, as the rejigging would take it as far as Mr. Mahoney's riding, perhaps into Halton, and even the chair's area as well. We gave up the fight for practical reasons.

The name, I think, is most appropriate. It shouldn't be named after one community within the new riding of Welland.

The Chair: Are there any questions from Mr. Reid or Mr. Borotsik?

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Which name do you wish to have? Is it Niagara?

Mr. John Maloney: Niagara South is what I proposed.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What is the current name?

Mr. John Maloney: It's a combination of two ridings, Niagara Centre and Erie—Lincoln. We go down certainly to the south portion of the peninsula with the new additions.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Tirabassi also made an appearance before this committee. I can't remember now if he had any comments on the name of the riding.

Does anyone remember?

The Chair: Yes. He didn't want it called Welland either. He wanted it called Niagara Centre.

Mr. John Maloney: That's the name of his riding now. I don't believe that he came up with that proposal. I don't believe he made mention of it in his appeal. He may have.

When I told him what I thought the riding would be, he said that he would prefer Niagara Centre. He's ignoring the fact that it's no longer Niagara Centre.

The largest geographic area comprises the communities of Port Colborne and Wainfleet. They're in the southern portion of the riding. I think that Niagara South is more reflective of the actual geographic boundaries.

The Chair: Erie is not reflective because it wouldn't include the Welland part. Is that right?

Mr. John Maloney: That is right.

The Chair: Are there any other questions?

Mr. Scott Reid: Does the Welland Canal run basically all through the entire area?

Mr. John Maloney: The Welland Canal runs through Port Colborne, through Welland, and into St. Catharines.

Mr. Scott Reid: Would it run through the middle of the riding or along the edge of it?

Mr. John Maloney: It runs, I would say....

Mr. Scott Reid: I can see it. There are little arrows pointing it out.

The Chair: To clarify, then, the ridings would be Niagara Falls, Niagara West—Glanbrook, and Niagara South.

Mr. John Maloney: It fits in with the other ones as well, except for St. Catharines, which is predominantly the city of St. Catharines. That makes sense.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Maloney, this committee is also going to be considering the process of redistribution and whether or not to recommend that there be changes to the legislation in terms of quotients being different outside of the big urban centres of Toronto and GTA versus the rest of the province.

If you have some comments in that area for the future, we'll probably come back in September. Hopefully, we can get a mandate to do that and make some recommendations.

Mr. John Maloney: We would have strong comments to make in that respect.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I was wondering....

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: This is to Mr. Maloney, and I promise it'll be quick.

We have the two proposals. We have the original proposal and the final proposal. You said that it was rejigged a bit. You've had an opportunity, obviously, to see the rejigging with the boundaries. Do you have no difficulties with the proposal now after making your presentation to the commission?

Mr. John Maloney: I made a presentation to the commission that the commission....

º (1605)

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They disregarded it.

Mr. John Maloney: They made changes to the Niagara Falls riding, they made changes to the Niagara West riding, but they left the proposed Welland riding basically the way it was. I disagreed with that. I thought it made more sense to have Port Colborne, Wainfleet, Welland, and Fort Erie together, the four communities along Lake Erie.

The population adjustment was the problem. They indicated that the Niagara Peninsula had basically a static population growth. As a consequence, they couldn't justify it.

We had five ridings. They've now basically been reduced to four. They didn't buy my argument. Three of the four Niagara region representatives agreed with the proposal and the fourth one did not.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

Mr. John Maloney: It's not what I would want. Under the circumstances, I can't see changing it again unless Madam Chair had reference that the smaller rural ridings would have less population.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That may be part of the reason.

Mr. John Maloney: You see, with regard to the city of St. Catharines, they could have taken the whole....

The city of St. Catharines is basically all of St. Catharines, except for a sliver, and the south part of St. Catharines. Those people are going to go to the St. Catharines member notwithstanding. It doesn't cost any more to have that representative represent the whole city, which is maybe $19,000 or $20,000. That member would agree with that as well.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. John Maloney: Paddy, thank you.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)): Are there any other questions? That's it? All clear for everybody?

Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

Mr. John Maloney: Thank you.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Mr. Mahoney.

Hon. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have three requests. Two of them are fundamentally just name changes, recognizing the fact that there's more than one community. I'll give you the specifics.

The third one was part of a suggestion made by Carolyn Parrish that I agree with, to add...I can't show it there.

That's showing Mississauga West becoming Mississauga--Streetsville. That's not necessarily what's going to happen, because Mississauga--Erindale, frankly, is where I live and where I would intend to run. The Erindale area is the one that I and Ms. Parrish are both in agreement on making a change to.

So on the Mississauga--Erindale one, the suggestion is to add a small piece known as the village of Erindale. It's a historic village. It has been there for more than 100 years, I think. It has a population of about 1,000 people. It's just south of Dundas. It runs south of Dundas, east of the Credit River, which sort of sits all by itself.

I don't know that I can describe it from here with that map, but you can see it if the Mississauga--Erindale riding can come up.

While that's happening, the other request I had, had to do with name changes. What they're recommending is that one of the ridings be named Mississauga--Streetsville. I currently represent both of those, Streetsville and Meadowvale, and they're very distinct communities. They're separated by what is really a six-lane highway in Erin Mills Parkway. People in Meadowvale go shopping in Streetsville, and so on. I would just like to see the name “Meadowvale” recognized. So it would be called Mississauga--Streetsville--Meadowvale under my proposal.

In Mississauga--Erindale, the larger part of the community that represents Mississauga--Erindale is actually Erin Mills--Rick, you would know Erin Mills. So I'm just asking that it be called, as well, Mississauga--Erin Mills--Erindale or Erindale--Erin Mills--I don't really care which. But they're both very distinct, and people recognize the difference. When you talk to someone in Mississauga and ask where they live, they will say, I live in Erindale, or I live in Erin Mills. So I would like to see that happen.

A voice: Or I live in Meadowvale.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Yes, exactly. Or I live in Streetsville. Even though we're the sixth largest city in the country, it's still very much community based.

I would just add that there's nothing gained or lost by recognizing those communities. We're not leaving somebody out, unlike if you tried to do that in Mississauga South, where it would be the longest riding name in the history of the government, because there are about 12 communities down there that see themselves as distinctive. In these two that I'm referring to, there really are two: Streetsville and Meadowvale; and Erin Mills and Erindale. So I would ask that this be considered.

The third name change is one that Ms. Parrish and I also agree on, and it's supported by the city council. It's the new riding of Peel Centre, which we are asking be called Mississauga Centre--Brampton South.

I know they seem like a bit of a mouthful, but when you think of Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough and names like that, there are a lot of names like that. Or Bramalea--Gore--Malton--Springdale...it goes forever.

Mr. Scott Reid: Or John Bryden's riding, Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Or Mississauga Centre--Brampton South.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Yes, or Mississauga Centre--Brampton South.

That really is representative, by the way, of where they are geographically. Mississauga Centre would include the city hall, and the Square One area north and south, and then it takes in a chunk of Brampton South just to make sure the population numbers are there. The riding would properly represent both of those communities--without offending anyone, I might add.

I think that's it, those three name changes to Erin Mills--Erindale, Streetsville--Meadowvale, and Mississauga Centre--Brampton South; and then the change to add the village of Erindale on the south side of Dundas, east of the Credit River.

º (1610)

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Mr. Mahoney, just a point of clarification. We have a letter saying you are supporting the submission by Mrs. Parrish to change it to Mississauga—Erindale. Then we have a request from you to call it Mississauga—Erin Mills—Erindale.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: No. Mr. Chairman, I didn't suggest Mississauga—Erindale, the commission did. What we asked is that the village of Erindale be included in the riding of Mississauga—Erindale. That's one request. And that village, if you look on the boundary, is isolated. You can't get to it because of the river. If you leave it in the Mississauga South riding, you have to go up into Mississauga—Erindale to get to it. So it really should be part of the Erindale area. As I say, it's 1,000 people, it's a minor adjustment. That's what I was supporting.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Okay, two things. One is the name change, but the other one is adding Erindale.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Right.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Super.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: And the name change is simply to recognize the community of Erin Mills.

That's all I have.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Are there any questions?

Scott.

Mr. Scott Reid: I have a comment actually, rather than a question, but I think it would be of value.

When it comes to name changes recommended by MPs, my general feeling is there's a tendency to be inclusive of the community and to include areas that have been neglected. So I think we should tend to be supportive of the suggested name changes, as a general rule.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Okay.

Rick.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I'm still trying to find Erindale village. We don't have it on our maps. We can't show it on our maps.

I know Dundas and the Credit River, so if you're just taking the sliver--

Hon. Steve Mahoney: If you took the boundary and went like this....

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Is that sliver only 1,000 people?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Yes. It's an old historic village.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I appreciate that. I understand.

So Mississauga South will come up the Queensway, and they'll still get this little nickel here, right? You'll just have this.

Can you get that population, André?

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): Yes, that's what we're looking at now.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Did you make that presentation to the commission?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: No, I didn't, but the presentation I made was not dissimilar to what they adopted.

It was after they had...which I think was just inadvertent. If you look at Dundas, it looks like it should be the natural boundary. If you really know the community—which the commission wouldn't—you wouldn't understand the significance of that little blip of Erindale.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Do you know how many people you'd take, Mr. Mahoney, if you took it and squared it off right to Mavis Road?

There's that other little piece of the Queensway and Mavis.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: I think that's fairly heavily populated. You could go over there.

º (1615)

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, it just squares it off. I think there are a lot of high-rises there.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: No, they're actually all large lots and singles. They're ravine properties and golf course properties, etc. In the village of Erindale, I wouldn't think there's less than a 100-foot-front house, so the density is quite low.

Mr. André Cyr: The area includes all the way from the river to Mavis Road.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, no, that's what we were just talking about. He says no.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Well, are you saying the village of Erindale does?

Mr. André Cyr: It's according to Mrs. Parrish's presentation, if I recall correctly.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So that's taking it right to Mavis, right?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What's the population of that?

Mr. André Cyr: It's 6,000.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So 6,000. If you bring the cursor up halfway and take out those two....and take it up to the river, what have you got there?

Mr. André Cyr: Twelve hundred.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, that's what you're saying, Steve.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: That's what I'm saying, and I thought that's what Carolyn was saying.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But she wanted to go right to Mavis Road.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: But there is a boundary there that you can stop it at. It's a fairly major street, which I think is called Old Carriage Way. It's a fairly major street that you can stop it at.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So 6,000 would be right to Mavis Road.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: But 6,000 would be too many.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Would you have an objection going right to Mavis?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: My problem would simply be with the impact on the south; you might take too much away from the population numbers in the south and increase them too high in the new ridings.

The real community of interest is the village of Erindale, and not that other area over there, which is a different little community. It doesn't have a name as such, and I don't think it has pedestrian access and linkages, without going out onto Dundas Street.It's specifically the old village of Erindale.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: If you don't have Erindale in it, why do you call it Mississauga—Erindale?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: That's right.

Technically the area north of Dundas Street, or north of Erindale village, is called the Credit Woodlands, but that isn't a name that has any historical significance. It was more like a subdivision there.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Why don't we do Mississauga—Erindale—Credit Woodlands? Let's throw something else in there.

An hon. member: So you want this one, not that one?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Right, and that's 1,200 people, though I had said 1,000. With 1,200, it's a fairly minor adjustment.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: There are three names changes.

Is everybody okay with the name changes?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Yes, they are.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They're all new.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: I can tell you the opposite of that. You could call it Mississauga—Streetsville.

An hon. member: It is Old Carriage Road there.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: Yes, it is Old Carriage Road. That's what I thought.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Should we go to Glengarry?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: It depends on how much you adjust the population, because you're going outside of the boundaries of that old village.

Mr. André Cyr: We're not going to Glengarry?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: I was going to say, if you leave those names out and favour Streetsville over Meadowvale, or Erindale over Erin Mills—which is a very definite community—that's when you will get....

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Let's put that name too....

º (1620)

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): If we were to take all of the area Carolyn has suggested--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Did she suggest all the way to Mavis?

Mr. John Wright (Research Officer, Library of Parliament): Yes, she did suggest all the way to Mavis.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: She did? I missed that.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): That would mean plus 12%.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Per seat. No, no, for Mississauga—Erin Mills—Erindale. What would it be for Mississauga South if you took the whole of Mavis Road?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Well, her figures will bring Mississauga—Erindale to 117, Mississauga—Streetsville to 118, Mississauga—Centre to 116. Very close.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: But you said it was a 6,000 increase, not 3,000.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): I don't know where she gets this. We argued with her on that, do you remember? Her figures were wrong--

Mr. André Cyr: She provided figures that estimated--

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): --because she was saying the additions were only on 1,300 households and 3,000 residents, and you were saying 13,000 and she was saying you were wrong.

Mr. André Cyr: I think there was confusion there. I think this is the issue. I think she was thinking of Erin Mills and the 1,200 that she took the boundary to. That's conjecture, but I think that's what happened. And the village is considered to be just this area here.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Yes, but what are the street names there? I mean, if you're going over to Credit Woodlands Drive, which is here in the north, you could include this little block of townhouses and you've probably got a substantial number of--

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): So what you're saying is if we include all of that, as she wants, it's too much population.

Mr. André Cyr: But see, that's what she was showing you. But everything west of Old Carriage is 1,200--

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Yes, and that is the village of Erindale. This other stuff is not in the village of Erindale.

Mr. John Wright: I have a point of clarification, just so I can get it in the transcript.

For clarification, what we're talking about is approximately 1,200 people and it's bounded on the east side by Old Carriage Road. That would give us the village, as you called it, of Erindale.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: So the east is Old Carriage, the west is the Credit River as it meanders down there.

Mr. John Wright: Exactly, bounded on the west by the Credit. So when we're writing the description down, it should come to a proposal and that's what we want to say. Do we have the numbers for that?

Mr. André Cyr: It's 1,200 if we take what's between Old Carriage and the Credit River.

Mr. John Wright: Yes, that's great.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): If we were to go to...I guess you call it Mavis Road, the suggestion of Mrs. Parrish, how much would that give us?

Mr. André Cyr: That was 6,000.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Is that in addition to the 1,200?

Mr. André Cyr: No, including the 1,200.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Okay, so there's 3,800. No, there's 4,800. Okay. Thank you.

Is there anything else, Mr. Mahoney?

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Only the name changes.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Are there any questions for Mr. Mahoney? Rick. Scott.

Thank you, Mr. Mahoney.

Hon. Steve Mahoney: Thank you very much.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Okay, Mr. Peric.

Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the panel.

As I have indicated in my written statement, I have grave concerns about this proposal from whoever proposed it, that North Dumfries should be taken away from Cambridge.

North Dumfries is connected to CDF Cambridge. They're situated between Brantford and Cambridge. Their high schools are in Cambridge, the fire department is from Cambridge, the legion is from Cambridge, the hospital is from Cambridge, so they're physically part of Cambridge. If you take North Dumfries away and give it to the newly named riding of Kitchener—Conestoga, people would have to travel from, say, Highway 8 all the way to St. Jacobs, if you can find it on a map, to the constituency office. That's unacceptable for the people of North Dumfries.

As you know, the Township of North Dumfries unanimously passed a resolution that it wants to be part of the Cambridge federal riding. I would therefore urge you to seriously consider leaving North Dumfries as part of the Cambridge federal riding, that is, North Dumfries including the Town of Ayr.

º (1625)

Mr. Scott Reid: Would you mind pointing to that with the laser pointer?

Mr. Janko Peric: This is the city of Cambridge, and North Dumfries is here. The present proposal is that this part would be part of the newly named riding of Kitchener—Conestoga, which would go all the way around up there...God knows how far, I can't see it, but beyond the city of Waterloo. It makes no--

Mr. André Cyr: I'll go to this map.

Mr. Scott Reid: Do you have a map for Kitchener—Conestoga? That would be the best one to go to.

Mr. André Cyr: Okay. Is this better?

Mr. Janko Peric: It's all right for me. I know the riding, but I'm concerned about the members. You see, this is Cambridge and that's North Dumfries, which will be part of this here.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, that's perfect.

Mr. Janko Peric: Can you imagine people from here travelling somewhere...I don't know, but the present riding office is somewhere here. It makes no sense.

The present riding is part of Kitchener as well, this part here called Doon Pioneer Park. I don't mind, because they are part of the city of Kitchener. But North Dumfries is so connected to Cambridge that they consider themselves part of Cambridge. As I said, students from--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Can you go back to the old boundaries?

That little piece that goes to the east of--

Mr. Janko Peric: This piece here?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, right there.

Mr. Janko Peric: Yes, that's part of North Dumfries as well.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, I know. That's also part of Kitchener—Conestoga, isn't it?

Mr. Janko Peric: Yes, that would be under this proposal.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, under this proposal. What if that piece were put onto Cambridge?

Mr. Janko Peric: It doesn't matter. This is all connected. If you physically know the riding, people from here, which is...there you go, that's good. That's next to the Brant riding, which is the riding of the honourable minister Jane Stewart. Now, if they have to travel way beyond the city of Waterloo, it's unacceptable for those people. They use the hospital here in Cambridge. They use high schools, the legion, all the services are connected and are in Cambridge for those people.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What's the population, Mr. Cyr?

Mr. André Cyr: The population of North Dumfries is 8,800.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That whole yellow area?

Mr. André Cyr: The whole yellow area, correct.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's another 8,000, but it comes out of Kitchener--Conestoga.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Janko Peric: This is part of the riding right now.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I appreciate that, but it comes out of the Conestoga.

Mr. André Cyr: Kitchener--Conestoga is at minus 2% and Cambridge is at plus 2.5%, presently.

º (1630)

Mr. Scott Reid: In the original proposals put out last August...I only have a very small map, but on map 3, page 10, it shows Cambridge riding as including North Dumfries at that time, so are you basically asking for a return to...?

Mr. Janko Peric: Absolutely. Now, there is a small part of Kitchener here, part of the present Cambridge riding, it's called Doon Pioneer Park, and Conestoga College is there. Physically that is connected to the city of Kitchener, and I don't mind and even people sometimes ask, why are we part of Cambridge riding? But North Dumfries is a natural connection to Cambridge.

Mr. Scott Reid: When the changes were made between the August version and the March version of the proposals, between the first and second versions of the proposals put out by the boundaries commission, they changed North Dumfries. Did they move that other area as well, or was that the only change made?

Mr. Janko Peric: They moved Kitchener and North Dumfries, and that Kitchener part would go to Kitchener Centre, I believe, and then North Dumfries would go under the new name of Kitchener--Conestoga.

Mr. Scott Reid: What I'm getting at is, they took North Dumfries out. Was something else put into your riding to compensate for the population?

Mr. Janko Peric: No.

Mr. Scott Reid: The population had just been substantially larger. What was the population...I have the wrong version, it doesn't have populations, I don't think. Cambridge was 119,000 at the time under that proposal.

Mr. André Cyr: That's what I have presently on the screen, plus 10%, and Kitchener--Conestoga is at minus 10%.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And Cambridge is plus 10%.

Mr. Scott Reid: When the initial proposal was made, there was obviously something that motivated the boundaries commission to shift from what they had there to this proposal. Do you know what that was?

Mr. Janko Peric: I'm not aware of what it was, but when I talk to people in North Dumfries, including the township council, they are totally opposed to that idea. I've talked to the local publisher of the paper; people are totally against being part of something that is not naturally connected to them.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Did you make a presentation on this first proposal before the commission? You did not. So you were satisfied with that Cambridge configuration?

Mr. Janko Peric: Losing just part of Kitchener.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You were fine with that? So you made no presentation at all? You didn't say, I like it, just leave me alone?

Mr. Janko Peric: Naturally it's part of Kitchener, and even people in that part were asking questions--how come we are part of Cambridge riding and we are part of the city of Kitchener? But now the situation with North Dumfries is completely different. They are totally opposed to being a part of Kitchener--Conestoga.

[Translation]

The Chair: Any other questions? No.

Thank you very much, Mr. Peric.

Mrs. Guarnieri.

[English]

Ms. Albina Guarnieri (Mississauga East, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Translation]

I want to thank you all for giving me the opportunity to make a few suggestions about my riding.

[English]

I have come here today to express my concern surrounding a couple of changes planned for Mississauga, specifically Mississauga East, under redistribution. Mississauga East hasn't changed in terms of population for over a decade, and naturally I favour the original plan to leave it just as it is. However, in view of the clear intent to redraw the entire region, I would like to draw your attention today to two areas that are clearly misplaced in the new addition.

The proposed boundaries would create a border that would divide a traditional community of interest, as the report states was not its intent. As drafted, Central Parkway East would be an eastern dividing line. Central Parkway is not a main road and in fact is a 40-kilometre zone in the area contemplated as a border. I have brought a couple of photos to indicate that Central Parkway Boulevard is not the kind of border that we've become accustomed to in Mississauga. Not only is it not a highway or a main thoroughfare, the area of Burnhamthorpe, Cawthra Road, and Highway 403 is bordered; it is a focal point of a small community.

The area bordered by Hurontario, Burnhamthorpe, Cawthra Road, and Highway 403 is a single community nestled within these main roads. At the centre of this community is Central Parkway Mall, Charles Garnier Catholic School, and René Lamoureux, a Catholic school on the east side of these schools on the west side.

Under the proposed boundaries, most Mississauga--Cooksville voters in this community will have to vote outside the riding as their current voting stations are largely on the east side of Central Parkway. There's only one small polling place on the west side of this road. So of course we find ourselves in the situation where the boundaries are going to cause tremendous local confusion and compound an existing problem of inadequate voting stations. In addition, the main service centre for this community, Central Parkway Mall, would now be out of the riding.

In this mall is the local passport office, and selfishly I'd like to point out my constituency office. So should the boundaries not be modified, I will no doubt have to move my office across the street at a cost, in terms of moving expenses and lost leaseholds, of not less than $25,000.

The simple solution is to have the border at Cawthra Road rather than Central Parkway. This is a main road and the road that is used municipally to divide wards 3 and 4. No one on the east side of Cawthra currently votes at locations on the west side or vice versa. Altogether, Cawthra provides the most logical choice for a boundary in this vicinity.

As for the very small population change, I gather--and perhaps you can verify for me--some 3,000 voters, I would draw your attention to the rapidly expanding population of Peel Centre. There are countless new developments, and I expect that even with this change, Peel Centre, as depicted on the map, will have exceeded the population of Mississauga--Cooksville by the time these boundaries come into effect due to the new developments and the plans involved there.

A second area of concern to me is Coram Crescent. This is an isolated street in the southeast corner of my current riding of Mississauga East. Voters there have a difficult time voting as it is, with their polling station being kilometres away on the north side of Dundas even though they are literally across the street from other residential subdivisions in Mississauga East. However, they are nowhere near the next residential street in the proposed Mississauga South.

If you live on Coram Crescent, you would have to drive from the 427 to Dixie Road, travel south on Dixie to the Queensway, and carry on south before you find any sign of another Mississauga South residence, never mind a polling station. It will be a nightmare for these people to find their polling station, as it was in 1988 when the returning officer accidentally placed the polling station on a street called Tedwyn Drive, now part of Mississauga South in the last redistribution. Shuttles actually had to be set up to move the voters to the voting station, which was nearly 20 minutes away.

Naturally I propose to maintain Coram Crescent in the same riding as the subdivisions immediately north of Dundas, which is the proposed Mississauga--Cooksville.

º (1635)

This brings me to the final point, which is the name of the riding. The riding to be called Mississauga--Cooksville includes the area that used to be called Cooksville as well as communities such as Dixie and Applewood. But strangely, the best known facility bearing the Cooksville name, the Cooksville GO Station, is in Mississauga--Erindale under this plan, which should immediately indicate that there is something inexact about using Cooksville as the name of the riding.

Residents of this area rarely describe themselves as living in Cooksville. They are more likely to use terms such as Mississauga East, Applewood, Fleetwood, or Mississauga Valley. So I would commend the authors of the report for trying to incorporate riding names with some historical reference to the days before the city of Mississauga was formed. However, I would suggest that Mississauga East defines this community more clearly and unambiguously and should remain. Hence I've drafted the following proposal for new language under the Mississauga--Cooksville section:

Consisting of the part of the Regional Municipality of Peel comprised of that part of the City of Mississauga described as follows: commencing at the intersection of the northeasterly limit of said city with Queensway East; thence southwesterly along Queensway East and Queensway West to Mavis Road; thence northwesterly along said road to Highway No. 403; thence northeasterly along said highway to Cawthra Road; thence southeasterly along said road to Burnhamthorpe Road East; thence northeasterly along said road to the northeasterly limit of said city; thence generally southeasterly along said limit to the point of commencement.

We have a couple of maps, which I'll now distribute to you, that show you the areas that I highlighted for clarification for you. One is a map that contains the current riding being proposed of Mississauga--Cooksville, and in the other one I've shaded in the areas that I'm proposing to include in the new riding of Mississauga East. The shaded-in area is already part of my riding under Mississauga East, and Paul Szabo did sign my proposal, so he has no objection.

In the area of Coram Crescent, which is the bottom part here, the little oval part, there are railway tracks. There's no residential area there at all, except for Coram Crescent, which is often forgotten. In fact, in 1988 when I first ran, a returning officer accidentally had them voting in Mississauga South, in Tedwyn, so they had to cross the entire length of the riding and it was something that was caught only at the last minute.

º (1640)

The Chair: Sorry, but that was 1988, so if this were to stay there, wouldn't they just put in a voting station right in Coram Crescent?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: That's my point, there is none. If they are taken over by Mississauga South, they would have to cross over and go to great lengths. It would be a 20-minute drive for them to get to the nearest polling station.

Mr. Scott Reid: Isn't the problem that there are there no public buildings on Coram Crescent, there's no actual...?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: In this area where Coram Crescent is, do you see where the railway tracks are?

Mr. Scott Reid: I understand. My question was, I'm guessing that even if the electoral officer wanted to put a voting station there, there would be no public buildings, or schools, or fire halls.

The Chair: There are no apartment buildings, there's no school, there are no fire halls, there's nothing?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: Yes, it's a tiny little street. You know, they're often overlooked, and that's why I'm saying that.... I trust your judgment on this, but they're segregated there--

The Chair: So do you want them in or do you want them out?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: No, I want them in, because it makes sense for them to go north of Dundas to the nearest polling station.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you just square that off. Going straight down the Queensway to the east, you'd just square it off like that yellow that's right there now. How many people?

Mr. André Cyr: There are 370.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: It's a small group.

Mr. Scott Reid: Is the entire change that you're proposing to the riding what is shown there now?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: No. The other part is moving the boundary to Cawthra Road.

Mr. Scott Reid: From Central Parkway to Cawthra Road.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: Yes. It's a natural dividing line between wards.

The Chair: How many people are there, André?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: There's a whole community.

The Chair: Just a second, sorry.

How many people do you have in the whole area now?

Mr. André Cyr: In the whole area, there are 374. In the other area that I highlighted previously, there are 5,200.

º (1645)

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: There are 5,200 in that area.

The point I would make is that Peel Centre has so many new developments. The boundaries have been shifting. With a little bit of foresight, we'll probably be at a par with Peel Centre by the time the boundaries come into effect. That is the point I would make.

The Chair: For clarification, Mississauga—Cooksville, or whatever you want the riding to be called, is already 14% over the provincial quotient. Where would it put them with the two?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: I'm not sure what they've done. We had calculated that there were about 3,000 in that area to Cawthra Road.

Did you include the yellow portion?

Mr. André Cyr: No, we included only the area that you've highlighted on your sheet.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: That is the part from Central Parkway west. We looked at the voters list. I will double-check that.

The Chair: We have the latest census blocks from Statistics Canada. You would be above by 18% With the additional 300, it is minuscule; it's about 18%.

The next riding up, Peel Centre, would be at 1% and Mississauga South would be at 10%.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: In Peel Centre, there are so many new developments going up there that, if you know the area, they're going to catch up very quickly to us. That's my prediction.

One of the reasons my initial riding never changed was that there's no place for new development in my riding. It will be static. The point I would make is that Peel Centre will grow very rapidly because there are so many new developments in that area.

The Chair: What do you suggest the riding name should be?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: I'm suggesting that it would make sense to leave it as Mississauga East since approximately 72% is incorporated in the area.

The Chair: Is Cooksville in any other part?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: The Cooksville GO Station is actually in Mississauga.

The Chair: It is in Mississauga South.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: It is actually in Mississauga—Erindale. That's the most common feature. Everybody identifies with the GO station. Ironically, if we're trying to match up a landmark, it makes more sense to incorporate that name where the GO station is.

The Chair: I apologize if I zoned out there.

Did you make this presentation to the commission or not?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: We sent a letter.

The Chair: Okay. Did anyone ask for these particular changes, as far as you're aware?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: Nobody has objected to them because they don't really impact on any of the other members.

Coram Crescent was already in my riding. Paul Szabo signed my papers, as you know. The extension of the boundary to Cawthra is already part of my current riding. It doesn't impact on anyone else.

The Chair: The commissioners wrote that they think that Mississauga—Cooksville was established in an attempt to keep traditional communities of interest in the area intact.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: That's my point.

º (1650)

The Chair: They mostly achieved that, but they missed a couple of bits. Okay.

Are there any other questions? D'autres questions?

Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: I think the problem here is this. I'm looking through the population figures. According to the figures, Mississauga—Cooksville is already the largest constituency in the province out of 106. It makes me suspect that there might be some resistance to further increasing its population.

Therefore, is there any other area that might not have as close a community of interest with the other parts of your constituency that could be moved out in compensation, as one possibility?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: I have no objection to the map as drawn by the commissioners. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that Coram Crescent is a natural fit with my area.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, I'm not thinking Coram Crescent. It's the larger area.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: Yes, for the larger area I'm going to have to check my stats. We calculated it at 3,000. I will double-check that.

The point that I'm making is that the other areas surrounding me all have new developments. One of the reasons my riding of Mississauga East didn't change over the years is that there is absolutely no place for a developer to come in and raise buildings. It's all over-developed.

My riding, even if we were to incorporate the area to Cawthra, is not going to change over the years to come. Whereas in the other areas, I think you'll find that by the time the next redistribution comes into play, they'll have substantially not only caught up to me, if I'm the largest, but they'll actually surpass me. That's my prediction.

Mr. Scott Reid: I don't disagree with you. Having gone through some of the transcripts of the commission's hearings when this particular argument was raised, it was in a number of locations, including my own constituency. It is, at this point, about 30% over the provincial average.

The commissioners pointed out that they felt they had no right under the legislation to take into account future predicted growth.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: Wouldn't a little bit of foresight avoid redistributing ridings continuously?

If you know the area, you know there's a lot of land where developers have already put in their proposals. I would assume that with a little bit of foresight we could avoid redrafting the boundaries.

Mr. Scott Reid: What I'm trying to get at here is, while there might be good sense in that, the legislation doesn't permit the commissioner to take it into account. Therefore, if you base your presentation to us and the presentation you make to them on that, they're less likely to accept it than if you have some other way.

This is why I bring it up. You've made a case for community of interest. I'm only asking if there's some compensating means, because we don't do that. I suspect you'll have less chance of having them accept your presentation.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: How would you solve the problem that the people in this little area will have to go out of the riding to vote?

The Chair: That requirement is not the issue.

Mr. Scott Reid: My guess is that you'll have no problem with Coram. I think they'll give you that. It's the larger area to the north where I suspect you're going to run into some difficulties with them. I'm only trying to find a way of allowing you to achieve the goal that you're pointing to in a way that's likely to achieve success.

Remember that you don't only have to convince us. We send off a report. The commissioners then sit down, read it, and make a decision based upon what the legislation allows them to do. I have a suspicion that they will be more likely to be agreeable to what you're suggesting if there is some compensating reduction in population somewhere else in your constituency.

I know that it's difficult as an MP. We never want to indicate the parts that we don't want, but I think that would assist you.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: I want all of my riding. I'd be happy with the existing boundaries.

The Chair: If I may, Mr. Reid, I think Ms. Guarnieri's point was this. What she's proposing with the two areas may put her up above the provincial quotient to 18%, but she won't be inconsistent in a very short time from the other areas. She's not necessarily arguing about the other one, so she's still within the 25%.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: My riding, by the way, since I've represented it, has been stable at 100,000. I've been having my boundaries redefined every so often, even though my riding hasn't changed. The reason is the pressure of development from the surrounding areas. I'm just making a case that if there's a little bit of foresight in the planning we won't have to be continuously redefining the boundaries.

I just moved my riding office, by the way, to Central Parkway at the insistence of one of my Metro colleagues. Now under these proposed boundaries, where I had my riding office would actually have been fine; I went to the expense--taxpayers' expense--for nothing.

I guess I'm just arguing a little bit of logic in terms of maintaining the integrity of what I think the commissioners were trying to achieve. Hopefully I've made the case.

º (1655)

The Chair: I have one last question. It doesn't show Cawthra going right through to Highway 403 on the map, does it?

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: Yes.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Godin, avez-vous des autres questions? Non.

Peel Centre isn't a riding yet, so there's no MP there to comment.

Ms. Albina Guarnieri: That's right.

The Chair: Okay.

Thank you, Ms. Guarnieri.

Our next witness is Mr. Malhi.

Mr. Malhi, there is a laser pointer here that you need to hold your finger on if you want to use it with the map. Just be really careful. We prefer you didn't blind anybody on our team.

Mr. Malhi, we're ready when you are.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.): Thank you.

Dear honourable members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, Madam Chair, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to address the matter of my objection regarding the Electoral Boundaries Commission report and consolidation of the new electoral riding of Bramalea--Gore--Malton. This report recommends that the current riding of Bramalea--Gore--Malton--Springdale be adjusted in such a manner as to remove the new community of Springdale from the existing boundaries.

I object to this part of the proposal. I strongly believe the community of interest and the community of identity would be best settled by attempting to maintain the riding of Bramalea--Gore--Malton--Springdale in its present form to the greatest extent possible.

In terms of the northern Brampton community of Springdale, the community was first developed in 1993-94 in the area bounded by Bovaird Drive on the south, Airport Road on the east, Mayfield Road on the north, and Dixie Road on the west. The area on the west side of Dixie Road is known as the development of Trinity Mall. The community of Springdale more properly belongs with Gore and Malton as residents from those communities share a greater community of interest than do residents to the west of Springdale in the community of Trinity Mall. In fact, community, business and migration interests and the patterns have long incited residents of Malton to move northward to Bramalea, Gore and Springdale.

Geographically, only on its northern edge is the community of Malton able to find open land. Thus, this open land has been a natural pull to the residents of Malton towards Brampton. This attraction has enticed many former Malton residents, like me, to move to Springdale while at the same time maintaining connections, through family and friends, in Malton. However, in order to achieve the required population density, I propose to move the western boundary of the current riding and the proposed riding of Bramalea--Gore--Malton eastward to Bramalea Road. This constituency boundary would create a constituency of 112,799, well within the variance outlined by the Electoral Boundaries Commission.

In justifying the use of Bramalea Road as the dividing line on the western boundary of the constituency up to Bovaird Drive, I would like to advise you that many of my present constituents west of Bramalea Road often tend to visit the office of the Brampton Centre member of Parliament. As well, many constituents between Bramalea Road and Dixie Road occasionally receive mail from the Brampton Centre MP because Canada Post mail walks run across Dixie Road. Therefore, if the boundary became Bramalea Road, the confusion of the boundary line would be ameliorated.

Finally, as you will note in the attached map in your package, most of my recommendations vary little from the Electoral Boundaries Commission report; therefore, I believe my proposal will not adversely affect the proposed disposition of other ridings.

Once again, thank you for the opportunity to present my proposal by your consideration and review.

» (1700)

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Malhi.

Colleagues, are there questions? Do we have a number count from Mr. Cyr?

[Translation]

Any other questions?

[English]

Mr. Scott Reid: I would like to find out what the populations are in the other ridings, obviously.

Mr. André Cyr: Which ridings?

The Chair: You are currently Bramalea--Gore--Malton.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Before that they used to call it Bramalea--Gore--Malton--Springdale.

The Chair: You are already 11% over and you want to grab a little bit of Brampton--Springdale.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: No, I want to give some part of Brampton, east of Bramalea.

The Chair: You want to add what he has put up there as the yellow area.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: I want to add the yellow area and delete the green area.

The Chair: What is the red area?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: I want to add that.

The Chair: You want to add the red--

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes, and I want to delete a bit between Bramalea and Dixie Road.

Mr. André Cyr: The purple area that is to be added in--which is the yellow area on the screen--is 24,000.

The Chair: Okay, so put it in there.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And subtract the green area in his map, which is the strip that goes from--

The Chair: Below it, though you can't subtract all of it.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It now goes from Bovaird Drive all the way down to Derry Road.

The Chair: André, do you see the skinny strip?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And that's on Bramalea Road, right?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes.

The Chair: No.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's the skinny strip. You have it--well, not quite.

The Chair: No.

Mr. André Cyr: I omitted a few census blocks.

The Chair: I think it's bigger than that. Bramalea--Gore--Malton...no, I think you grabbed something extra or something less.

Did you bring an assistant with you?

Mr. André Cyr: No.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, well, it's pretty simple.

The Chair: Sorry, can you go back to the original one, André? I think I can help you out.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: It's actually very simple. It's a small portion--

The Chair: It's not so simple on this computer program when you're talking about some pretty dense territory.

Mr. André Cyr: I'll try to highlight this area first.

The Chair: There you go.

But I don't understand why that's 76, because it says Bramalea--Gore--Malton.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, that's it.

The Chair: That's it.

Mr. André Cyr: That's 35,000.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, so he's giving back 35,000 and taking how many, 20,000?

The Chair: No, it goes down a little further.

» (1705)

Mr. Scott Reid: The area goes down further than that, though, I think.

Mr. André Cyr: Okay, but it will be an industrial area.

The Chair: Oh, no it's.... Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: It goes down to Derry.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, it goes down to Derry Road.

Mr. Scott Reid: So it goes down right to where the 83 is, basically.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, and that is all industrial.

Mr. André Cyr: And just out of curiosity, we have 35,000--I'll just do the southern part, which was omitted. There are only five in there.

Mr. Scott Reid: Five people?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So that's 40,000.

The Chair: No, he means only five people--one, two, three, four, five--not 5,000.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Oh, really, it's only five people. Yes, because it is all industrial.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So what are the numbers again, taking in 20,000 and giving back 30,000?

Mr. André Cyr: I'll highlight the area and give it to the adjoining riding.

The Chair: Yes, because right now he's doing....

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Technology is a wonderful thing.

The Chair: Could I just clarify something, Mr. Malhi? Would you be Brampton--Springdale or Bramalea--Gore--Malton?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Under the new proposal, it would be Bramalea--Gore--Malton, but before that they called it Bramalea--Gore--Malton--Springdale.

The Chair: Okay. So you'd make Brampton--Springdale 18% over and Bramalea--Gore--Malton 2% over.

Mr. André Cyr: Correct.

The Chair: They are both over. Originally it was 11% over for Brampton--Gore--Malton.

Where is there more population? Where are there more housing developments, in Bramalea--Gore--Malton or in Brampton--Springdale?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: There are more in Springdale. Bramalea and Malton, that's the old area. There's no chance for further development. No land will be developed there; but in Springdale, yes.

But not on that side. Most of the development has come to the east of Highway 50 and west of the Airport Road.

The Chair: So are you suggesting that we make the riding that's already over, the one with the most growth, over by even more? Are you suggesting that in this way, when the next redistribution occurs, your area will feel less of an impact and those will be divided in half or something?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: I don't know.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Malhi, you indicated at the beginning of your presentation that you reside in Sandalwood.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes.

The Chair: Which is where?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It is the area he wants incorporated into the new riding, or into Bramalea--Gore--Malton.

Have you always resided in Sandalwood?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes, since 1996.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And you've always represented that ward, having resided in Sandalwood. Now your residence is being moved out of the proposed ward, so you have choices. You run either in Bramalea--Gore--Malton, or you run in Brampton--Springdale.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: No. In Brampton--Springdale there's a portion of that, a very small portion, that they are giving--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Sandalwood. Sandalwood is a very small portion.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes, they are giving that portion to Brampton Centre, so it's more than 90% of the population I've represented since 1993.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, but you live in Sandalwood, and it's now coming out of the constituency. That's the bottom line here.

The Chair: Yes, but he wasn't going to live there anyway.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you want to stay in Sandalwood, in Brampton--Gore--Malton. You're prepared to give up anything as long as Sandalwood stays in there, right?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes. Thanks.

The Chair: What did the commission consult on? Oh, something completely different.

They consulted on a Malton--Peel Centre, and a Brampton Centre, and a Brampton--East Caledon.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's quite a change.

The Chair: Oh, dear...and in terms of testimony at the hearings, they actually inverted that one section at the top. They changed it quite substantially.

Were there any persuasive arguments on this particular area? Is there a reason why the commission changed?

Did you like what the commission originally proposed? No. I'm trying to figure that out. Why don't I just let you answer.

» (1710)

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Right now, this is better than the one that was originally proposed.

No, that was totally changed. In the original proposal, they wanted Caledon and Bramalea, and then there was Peel Centre. That was totally different. That made no sense to me originally, but now, after that, I'm talking about this proposal, because most of the people in the area they're taking from me within Bramalea--Gore--Malton, the Springdale part, they moved from Malton. They have ties with Malton.

I used to live in Malton before the 1993 election, and I moved nearer to there because I knew this area was developing and it was going to be the same riding as I used to live in. That's why I moved from Malton to Springdale in 1995.

The Chair: What's the name of that community that you live in again?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Springdale.

The Chair: Sandalwood.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: No, Springdale, not Sandalwood.

The Chair: You live in Springdale. So--

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Sandalwood is a little different. That is further up. This is Springdale.

The Chair: The commission's report said:

These presentations generally suggested that Malton and Springdale be kept together at the expense of splitting the Bramalea area. The Commission decided that it could best keep communities of interest together by joining the Malton area of Mississauga to the eastern part of Brampton, including all of Bramalea, to create the electoral district of Bramalea--Gore--Malton.

In both cases the ridings are going to be over the provincial quotient, but by what you've suggested, you're asking us to make the Brampton--Springdale one, the one with the biggest growth potential, more above the provincial average than they proposed. I'm trying to figure out how we can justify that.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: This way, the population is 112,799. Even in the future, if the population increases, maybe within another two years, it will be close to another 5,000 or 6,000, not more than that. So that it will be about 119,000, 120,000, or 121,000.

The Chair: Are those the numbers you're giving us, Mr. Cyr?

Mr. André Cyr: Currently, with what Mr. Malhi's proposing, Brampton--Gore--Malton has 109,000, and Brampton--Springdale has 126,000, for plus 18%.

The Chair: Right. Is there something wrong with our numbers?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes, I think so.

The Chair: No, is there something wrong with our map? Our numbers are okay.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes. Which boundary are you considering for that, up to which street?

The Chair: I don't know. You need to look at it and tell us up to what street we need to go.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Go to Dixie Road. I go up to Dixie Road, not up to Sandalwood, up to Highway 410, or something.

Mr. André Cyr: We have up on the screen, where the arrow is, Dixie Road and Bovaird Drive. So that's the area you wish to incorporate in your riding, those limits?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes, up to Mayfield.

The Chair: Yes, Mayfield is at the top.

Mr. André Cyr: Up to Mayfield. Okay, I'll verify.

The Chair: Look for Mayfield at the top of the map, André. That's Mayfield. He has the right square.

» (1715)

Mr. André Cyr: So it's Mayfield on top, and the two other ones. Bramalea has the new area, new boundary to the southwest.

The Chair: Mr. Malhi, if we gave you between Dixie and Bramalea, between Bovaird and Mayfield, would that satisfy your concerns?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: No. I want--

The Chair: Right. You want all the way to Torbram Road.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: It's from Torbram to Dixie, north of Bovaird, north of Bovaird between Torbram up to Dixie Road, and the north side, Mayfield.

The Chair: All right. So then, just so you understand, Mr. Cyr has added that to the proposal, and that changes the numbers. So the area that's of lesser growth potential is just 2% above the provincial average, and the area that you said could grow more will be 18% above the provincial average. If you add another 5,000, it's going to be more than the legal limit, which would be 25%.

You said that's the area that's going to grow, so we're saying, is there some other split we should be looking at to make it not quite so much of a gap, 2% over to 18% over? Is there some way we could make them both 10% over? Is there some other dividing line that would be less difficult? Or no, in which case, fine, we'll have to figure out what we do with it.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Where can they go? Instead of Dixie Road, they can go all the way from Bramalea to Mayfield.

The Chair: Who goes?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: That's if they consider that way of doing it. I'm asking, instead of Dixie, you go all the way from Derry Road to Bramalea to Mayfield. How much is that?

The Chair: All right, sure. What if you go straight up and put half that square back in, André?

Mr. André Cyr: Along Rainforest Drive?

The Chair: No. That's only going to make it worse.

Mr. André Cyr: Okay, just a moment. Going east-west or north-south?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: West of Torbram Road, east of Dixie up to Bramalea.

Mr. André Cyr: So that area is Black Oak Drive, Bramalea, Bovaird, and Dixie Road. In that area there are 6,600.

» (1720)

The Chair: So what does that do to the numbers? That would make 77 even bigger, wouldn't it?

Mr. André Cyr: That puts Bramalea--Gore--Malton at plus 12% and Brampton--Springdale at plus 8%--116,000 and 120,000 respectively.

The Chair: Does that work for you, Mr. Malhi?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Bramalea Road, yes. All the way to Mayfield.

The Chair: Okay. Does anybody have any questions on that last one?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, we can play with lines and move lines, but now you're affecting different communities of interest, you're affecting community centres. Is there an effect on any of--

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: No.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What do you mean, no?

You can just make that delineation, you can cut that line out, and say everybody's happy on that side?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: There's no community centre involvement on that side. There are no community centres north of Bovaird.

Mr. Scott Reid: What about communities of interest?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: The community of interest, most of the people in that portion, between Dixie and Bramalea...at least half the people will be satisfied with this. I want to try Bovaird up north--at least half of them used to live in Malton. They moved from Malton to that area.

The Chair: Where is Malton exactly?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Malton is close to the Lester B. Pearson Airport.

The Chair: Yes, I know, but which streets?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Derry Road and the airport.

The Chair: Okay. I've got lost in there. In his map, it's toward...see that big empty space, 401 Derry Road? It's that corner. All I can tell you is there's never a shortcut.

Okay, does anybody have any other questions?

So what has been proposed certainly fits better within the provincial quotients for both seats. They're more similar in size, and you're saying they're more similar in community of interest. We don't have another member of Parliament who's affected, because they're all yours right now, right?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Yes.

The Chair: In terms of what was said at the commission hearings, we heard they consulted on a different set of ridings, anyway.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Are those the new boundaries you have up there? Those are the proposed changes?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes. Going to Williams Parkway.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): What would be the percentage?

Mr. André Cyr: The exact same percentage as we had in the report.

The Chair: I just have one last question. Even though there are only five people, the downward finger bit--André, do you want to get your pointer on that--is that not a natural geographic boundary just above it? That's a train line or something, right?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: No, that's Highway 410, I believe.

The Chair: That's Highway 410.

» (1725)

Mr. Scott Reid: It's Highway 407, I think. Those are the hydro lines and Highway 407 is there.

The Chair: Wouldn't it make sense to keep it attached to the airport? As opposed to shoving it with the other one, it should go to the pink zone, don't you think? It's not as clean.

André, just do it to the hydro line.

Mr. Scott Reid: Bring it to Highway 407. It has an area with a bunch of hydro lines and no people on one side of a highway, totally separated from the rest of the riding.

The Chair: I know, but I'm just looking at the next seat over. They've gone to the hydro line.

Mr. Scott Reid: That's true. They have.

The Chair: Just keep it nice and neat. Basically there's nobody between the hydro line and the highway, so it doesn't really matter. It just looks better in terms of the picture. And looks are important. Look at how far you've come.

Mr. Scott Reid: You're just making up for that cruel comment about coming in here today that you made last night.

The Chair: Okay, thank you very much.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: What are you talking about? I don't quite follow you about Williams Parkway. You mentioned something about Williams Parkway.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Cyr, you're up.

Mr. André Cyr: It's the area as currently up on the screen that goes from Mayfield to Williams Parkway.

The Chair: Otherwise the seats are too far off the provincial quotient and each other. We'd have trouble justifying that.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Williams Parkway.

The Chair: Is that a good boundary?

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: They want to include that one and this portion? Yes, that's okay.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Or they can do one more thing, if they want. So it will be Williams Parkway to the Dixie Road.

The Chair: We have Ms. Whelan, and then we were going to try to do a quick little in camera on a couple of the B.C. ones, if we can.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I have to go to a steering committee at 5:30.

The Chair: How could you let a steering committee meeting be rescheduled at the same time as this meeting?

Can I get you to stay for Ms. Whelan's testimony? Can we call over to the other committee for you?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, you've been letting them go for about and hour and half each. It would be really tough.

The Chair: Oh, stop it, she just walked in.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Oh, Ms. Whelan I have no problem with.

The Chair: Okay, we don't have to do the in camera part. We can do that another time. Okay.

Ms. Whelan.

Hon. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Madam Chair, I will do my best to be as succinct as possible. I understand you've had a very long day already and it's not over.

I believe you have a copy of my letter and presentation. I'm not sure if you have a copy of the letter I've received since. It was submitted from Bruce Crozier, the member of the provincial parliament who also represents the same boundaries as I do. Maybe I could give that to the clerk.

I'm here today to talk about the proposed change to the boundaries of the riding of Essex and I believe it would be an inappropriate procedure at this time to change those boundaries.

As I stated in my letter, I looked at what the commission states as a principal rule for constructing electoral boundaries. It talks about the population of each electoral district being as close as reasonably possible to the electoral quotient for the province. When I look at that, I see really no reason to change the boundaries of Essex, because the population adjustments would reduce the population to 114,330, a difference of just over 6% from the quotient or 7% from the existing population. There would be not a significant difference, in my opinion, to warrant the dislocation of the 7,420 residents from the riding of Essex. These residents have been accustomed--

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Is there a French version of the letter?

[English]

The Chair: Sorry. We'll get it to you. I apologize. I didn't realize it was only unilingual.

» (1730)

Hon. Susan Whelan: I'm sorry, I thought it was submitted in advance. I'm just double-checking. I apologize for that.

As I was saying, the difference in population is not much different from the provincial quotient, and it would not be a significant difference that would warrant dislocation of the 7,420 residents from the riding of Essex. These residents have been accustomed to identifying themselves as living in the electoral district of Essex. And as I said, I see no useful purpose in changing at this time.

The principal rule, as well, that is stated by the commission is that reasonable electoral boundaries shall reflect a community of interest. In the riding of Essex a significant portion of the area proposed for deletion is agricultural. When you look at the current riding redistribution, 61% of it is rural polls. The agriculture and agrifood sectors make up a sizeable portion of the riding. These communities of interest share much in common with the farm-related businesses that also make up a large part of the riding of Essex.

In the interest of effective representation for rural Canadians, it would not be appropriate, in my submission, to add them to an area where currently no similar interests exist.

In my letter of presentation, I quoted the ruling of the Attorney General for Saskatchewan v. Roger Carter. It determined that the purpose of the right to vote enshrined in the charter is not the equality of voting power per se, but the right to effective representation. The majority opinion argued that factors like geography, community history, community interests, and minority representation need to be taken into account to ensure that our legislative assemblies effectively represent the diversity of our social mosaic.

I would submit that this area of farm families is a community of interest that should remain together within the riding of Essex.

To back up that claim, I've included a map that shows the number of farms within Essex County to be 2,109. The number of 105 that exists in the top area that we're talking about is the former township of Sandwich South, now part of the town of Tecumseh.

The size of the farms, the acreage, is detailed in the second map, as well as the number of farms that presently exist in total in the year 2001. I went from 1996 to 2001 to show you that in fact the town of Tecumseh and the area of Sandwich South have maintained a large number of farms over the number of years. It still has a large rural area.

I've also enclosed letters from the vice-president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, the president of the Essex County Federation of Agriculture, and the Essex County Corn Producers' Association. They proposed that the movement of the boundaries of the ridings of Essex and Windsor—St. Clair would affect the agricultural community of interest that exists within the riding of Essex and, therefore, should remain in Essex.

I've also enclosed a copy of the letter from the mayor of the town of Tecumseh. They also are aware that much of the area to the south of the existing boundaries consists of family farms.

We have to understand that the town of Tecumseh is a new amalgamated town. The part in yellow that is shown on the map is all of the former township of Sandwich South. That's the part we're talking about here today. We're not talking about the whole town of Tecumseh. We're talking about the former Sandwich South township that is now part of the town of Tecumseh.

You can see that the proposal would remove the yellow part to create a funny ring-around riding and, at the same time, completely disassociate the people who live in the farming community from the rest of the riding of Essex.

There is also, as I said in my letter, a common Irish ancestry in the farming community. It's very strong in Sandwich South township and Maidstone. Maidstone is in the adjacent town of Lakeshore.

We can't look at old boundaries and old lines. We have to look at the new communities of interest that have evolved over time as well. I believe that we're creating a geographic artificial barrier by separating communities of common interest to the east and west of the proposed boundaries.

As well, the former township of Sandwich South that is now part of the town of Tecumseh was at one time linked to Sandwich West township. It is to the left of the yellow and is now the town of LaSalle. The common historical linkages of ancestry also exist there as well.

I think we have to remember how Essex County was formulated historically and what it means to the present makeup today.

I believe that the commission would be well within its mandate to apply the foregoing philosophy to the situation. The justifications for doing so are ample in terms of historical patterns, communities of interest and identity, and the population will also remain within the prescribed limits.

It seems, therefore, to me, based on my knowledge of the various communities that make up the constituency of Essex, that it would be in the best interest of the population of the riding for the boundaries to remain unchanged at this time until a review again is required following the next decennial census . By that time, it will also have allowed all of Essex County and the surrounding communities to readjust to what is called their new boundaries. There has been a forced amalgamation of communities within Essex County and they have not adjusted to it.

I think that to separate Sandwich South township from representation, at this time, would be premature and would create another situation of feeling isolated from a community that they have belonged to for so long.

» (1735)

As I said, I've included the graphical maps of the Agricultural Economic Impact and Development Study: For Essex, Windsor& Pelee Island, the number of farms, the land and crops, and, again, the number of farms in the Essex County region. I believe they clearly demonstrate the impact of the removal from the riding of Essex on the former Sandwich South area, as proposed.

If community of interest means anything, it definitely means something in the riding of Essex.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Cyr, can you give us the numbers, please, if we were to accept adding the yellow box.

Mr. André Cyr: If we add the former township of Sandwich South, it adds 7,500 to the electoral district of Essex, which will bring up the transfer. The riding of Essex is now at plus 13% and the electoral district of Windsor—Tecumseh is at 1% over.

The Chair: If we accept what you propose, we'd have a rural riding that is bigger than an urban riding, population-wise.

Hon. Susan Whelan: That's correct, but that's the way it exists today. In fact, the population in Essex has traditionally been larger than the two city ridings. The city of Windsor proper has experienced a recent growth.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next census. That's why I'm suggesting that the next decennial census would give a better indication than the last one, which this is based on. If you recall, this is based on the 1991 decennial census.

The Chair: 2001.

Hon. Susan Whelan: No, it's based on the 1991 results of the census.

The Chair: The current map is, yes. The seats that we currently hold are based on 1991. What's being proposed is based on 2001.

Hon. Susan Whelan: Let me understand this correctly. What we have in front of us is that in my riding right now Essex represents approximately 121,750 people, as I stated in the letter. The provincial quotient is 107,000. The present population is well within the allowable range for the province of Ontario of approximately 80,000 to 135,000.

I'm suggesting that, at the present time, it would not make sense to dislocate those 7,500 people. There is another opportunity after the next decennial to determine that.

Plus, if you look at the shape of the riding that will be left, it makes absolutely no sense. You've completely pulled out a section of a farming community. You have to go around LaSalle and around Tecumseh to get back to the town of Lakeshore. There are no access routes.

You've taken out a strong part of the industrial section as well for the automotive sector. In Sandwich South, there's a strong automotive parts manufacturing sector that employs a large number of the people in LaSalle, which surrounds it to the left, in Amherstburg, which surrounds it to the bottom, and in the towns of Lakeshore and Essex to the right.

If you look at it, you would see that the community of interest is so strong that, by pulling that part out, you've completely dislocated the riding of Essex. It absolutely makes no sense, regardless of the population size.

I'm not sure what the presentation was earlier today from our colleague from Windsor West. I'm not sure if he was asking that his boundaries remain as they are so they don't become bigger.

» (1740)

The Chair: We're not sure either. He didn't show up.

Hon. Susan Whelan: I apologize. I do know there has been a change between the two Windsor riding boundaries as well that could be readjusted, if you think that Windsor—Tecumseh or Windsor—St. Clair should have a larger population. I would have to say that Essex shouldn't suffer because of the way Windsor's boundaries have been drawn.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I have two very quick questions for my own curiosity.

Where is your constituency office?

Hon. Susan Whelan: It's actually in Essex. Essex would be in the centre. It would be at the bottom of Sandwich South township, almost to the centre of the riding.

The Chair: Does she have the pointer?

Hon. Susan Whelan: I don't have the pointer. Is there a pointer?

The Chair: Just don't blind us.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It doesn't matter. I know where it is. Essex is in the south.

Hon. Susan Whelan: Essex is right there.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Where do you reside?

Hon. Susan Whelan: I reside over here. My riding office is about in the centre of my riding, near Sandwich South.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Would most of the people in Tecumseh go to a riding office in Windsor, or would they come down to Essex?

Hon. Susan Whelan: In the part I'm talking about?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, the one you're talking about, Sandwich South.

Hon. Susan Whelan: They would come here.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They would currently, but I'm talking about whether there is—

Hon. Susan Whelan: This boundary line, just so we're all aware—and the reason, probably, that Mr. Masse didn't show up today—is actually E.C. Row Expressway,which is now going to become a six-lane highway for trucks as they come off Highway 401. It's going to completely divide this town of Tecumseh and completely isolate the community even more.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What you're saying is that would be a natural boundary. The highway is a natural boundary; therefore anything south of that natural boundary should be included in Essex.

Hon. Susan Whelan: It is already a natural boundary. That is what I'm suggesting.

The Chair: Monsieur Godin, et après, Monsieur Reid

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Have you had any discussions with Mr. Masse about the changes made by the Commission? I know that Mr. Masse apologizes for not being able to attend today but the Clerk told me he might be here next week.

[English]

Hon. Susan Whelan: Mr. Masse actually represents number 3, which is Windsor West. My boundary changes didn't change his riding.

Mr. Comartin represents Windsor—St. Clair. When I spoke to Mr. Comartin last fall before the hearing in Windsor, he was in agreement with me at that time that this part should remain part of the riding of Essex. He has never raised any opposition to that. He knows I'm appealing it, and we've had a couple of discussions on it.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: So, you had some discussions.

[English]

Hon. Susan Whelan: I haven't discussed it with him in the last couple of months, but we did discuss it last fall when it first came up, and I appealed it to the committee in November. He was aware of that.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Is the part you are now claiming in Mr. Comartin's riding, after the new changes, or in Mr. Masse's?

[English]

Hon. Susan Whelan: As it presently exists, no. Under the new proposed boundaries, this would become part of Mr. Comartin's riding. As the boundaries are right now, this is part of my riding.

All I'm saying is, leave the riding of Essex as is; do not make any changes at the present time, because the community of interest is so strong, and to get from LaSalle to the town of Lakeshore is not possible without going through this part of the riding. If you leave this change, this part of the riding doesn't have any community of interest or any way to join without going through this other area on the map. There is a complete lack of understanding by the original panel of how the community of interest and the farming interests work.

I couldn't appear at that meeting, unfortunately. I was out of the country at the time. I did send a letter, but I don't think it was accurately reflective of what was going on. That's why I thought it was important that I come here today, so that you could see and understand.

That's why I've had the farming organizations. I proposed it to them and have their letters of support, because they also recognize that the former Sandwich South, which is now part of the town of Tecumseh, and what was the town of Tecumseh and St. Clair Beach, belongs as a community of interest in this area—because that's the representation.

There are no farms whatsoever in number 2 if you don't include the part marked in yellow on the map—none whatsoever. Right now, Mr. Comartin doesn't represent a farming community. It's not part of Windsor—St. Clair. It would be a huge change for those boundaries.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: All right.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: The entire territory of the town of Tecumseh under the current proposals is included within the Windsor—St. Clair riding. You're proposing a return to the prior, pre-existing ridings. I'm just wondering if there is not some middle way. What I'm thinking is that the commission is being very respectful, and rightfully so, of municipal boundaries and is trying not to divide municipalities unnecessarily. Am I not correct that part of Tecumseh has been annexed, or will be annexed, to Windsor?

» (1745)

Hon. Susan Whelan: There's a small part of it.

When we made the presentation back in November we put forward two options. One was to leave the boundaries as they were, with all of Essex. The other option was to take that tiny part, which involves 200 residents, I think, right?

Mr. Scott Reid: So it's only 200 people?

Hon. Susan Whelan: Yes. It's the Windsor Airport. It's industrial land and about 200 people who go into the city of Windsor.

Mr. Scott Reid: On the aerial photograph you've given us, is that shown on here? I'm sorry, no.

Hon. Susan Whelan: I'm sorry, I didn't provide an aerial photograph, but I'd be happy to identify it for you on that map.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay, well, perhaps you can. I'm sorry. That's the airport, obviously.

Hon. Susan Whelan: Right. What you have here is farmland in the township of Sandwich South, and you have about 200 homes, or 200 residents in this area here. This is all airport, industrial land. There are no homes in this part whatsoever. This is all industrial land. This is commercial along here. Then you would find a few homes in that area there. This is a major settlement here in the town of Tecumseh, which is now a part of--

Mr. Scott Reid: So that's not part of Windsor, then, because this is obviously a major population centre.

The Chair: Just so that the two of you aren't having a private conversation, André is buzzing away and getting into some city lines. Those 200 people--

Mr. Scott Reid: He can do it for us.

Mr. André Cyr: I was just trying to figure it out. I'm not sure about the area that is supposed to be annexed, but I'm just doing the rough area to see how many people are in the area here.

The Chair: What did you come up with? We have great technology.

Hon. Susan Whelan: I see that. It's very good technology.

Mr. André Cyr: It's 5,500.

Hon. Susan Whelan: No, it's not possible, because I know that during the discussion with the annexation of the city of Windsor, there were very few homes involved in the annexed part from the city of Windsor, and you couldn't do it on a proportional basis of the size of the township of Sandwich South because of all the industrial land and the farmlands.

Mr. André Cyr: I've gone too far out here.

The Chair: And you're also on the wrong side of the border up there, too. Do you see that little cube?

Hon. Susan Whelan: Anyway, it has already been annexed and it is already part of the city of Windsor. It's not about to be annexed.

The Chair: Yes, but watch. You keep grabbing that one zone. There you go. How many people?

Mr. André Cyr: A little less than a 1,000.

The Chair: So those people could go to--

Hon. Susan Whelan: They could, but I would suggest, because of the farmland and because of the community of interest, that you would be segregating that part into the city of Windsor and an area that has no other community of interest and no representation.

It's very difficult to understand the agricultural industry and the agricultural community. If you have a riding that is made up of 120,000 people approximately, of which about 1,000 of them are in agriculture, I have to tell you they're not going to be well represented, with all due respect, as part of that urban riding. That's why I would argue that the entire former township of Sandwich South, regardless of the new boundaries of Windsor, regardless of the new boundaries of Tecumseh, should not be annexed, at this time, as part of the riding of Windsor--St. Clair.

The Chair: The commission actually wrote, and I quote:

There were some strong objections to the Commission's proposal to include all of the Town of Tecumseh within the proposed electoral district of Windsor--Tecumseh. Such objections were effectively asking the Commission to ignore the recent municipal amalgamation that created the current boundaries of Tecumseh. In the absence of any evidence from representative groups from Tecumseh that these municipal boundaries are not of significance, the Commission has decided to uphold its original proposal.

Do the letters that you represented to us...?

» (1750)

Hon. Susan Whelan: The letter I have now is from the mayor.

The Chair: I get to ask the questions and you give the answers.

Hon. Susan Whelan: I'm sorry.

The Chair: Does this package of letters address that issue? Is that the effective representation from people in Tecumseh to suggest that the commission has made a mistake?

Hon. Susan Whelan: The mayor of the town of Tecumseh, writing on behalf of the entire town, I think, would have to be definitely effective representation of the town of Tecumseh. I can't imagine what else we would want. He does represent the town. It was a council resolution that passed this, then agreed to this letter, on behalf of the residents.

Certainly they were not aware actually at the time of the meeting in November that they should have attended. They misunderstood that they should have been at the meeting.

The Chair: All right, Mr. Reid.

[Translation]

No other questions?

[English]

Mr. Scott Reid: Well, it's not really a question. I'll make an observation. I've been making this observation to other people who have come here, because I think it's important to realize this.

Although the commission has the right, by law, to go as far as 25% over or under, in this package of presentations they have gone as high as 13% over in, I think, only one riding in the entire province out of 106.

The Chair: She's only asking for 9%. It works out as 13%.

Mr. Scott Reid: This is the second largest riding in the province, by population. My suspicion is that they would be reluctant to endorse that.

The question I've asked to a number of other members of Parliament making presentations is this. Is there any compensating area where you feel that the communities of interest are such that they could be transferred over, in compensation for this? And I have no idea. I don't know this area of the problem at all.

Hon. Susan Whelan: Here's the situation we have as a result of amalgamation by the Province of Ontario. Unfortunately old boundaries were used to force municipalities together. They're still adjusting. I'm not suggesting that down the road there shouldn't be some changes. I'm suggesting that at this time it would be premature, because these municipalities are still learning how to get along themselves.

This former township of Sandwich South, I have to tell you, felt completely isolated. As they carved out a part, just now, to give it to the city of Windsor, those thousand people, or 250-plus homes, felt completely abandoned by the entire process.

I think at this time it would be incumbent upon us to say, look, we recognize there is a community of interest that existed, and historically, geographically, according to the Canada Elections Act, we will ensure that you are represented within that community of interest, regardless of which municipality you may find yourself in.

I think it is unfortunate that we draw arbitrary lines and ignore community of interest. If we're going to do that, and if we're just going to allow arbitrary lines that were drawn by the provincial Government of Ontario to dictate...then there's no point in having these meetings, these discussions on community of interest.

I recognize and understand the problem with the size; however, it's well within the quotient that's been set. It's well under the 135,000, and it also is no different from what we have today. So I'm arguing that the community of interest should be respected. The fact is that the mayor of the town of Tecumseh has recognized that part of the town would be in one riding and part would be in another, and he's recognized that for a reason, on behalf of all of the people of the town of Tecumseh.

The agricultural groups that I have addressed have written letters saying they also support that. The member of provincial parliament has also written, saying, look we have to recognize the rural component of the town of Tecumseh and where it best fits, and it's in the riding of Essex.

So I hear what you're saying, but you'd be doing the same thing, carving out a small piece of another community to try to adjust...and at the present time, until there's a substantial movement in population, my suggestion would be to leave boundaries as they are. Possibly in the next decennial it would make more sense, if you look at the map, to have part of a whole community go to another part, to join a more urban community.

The Chair: I would like to go to Mr. Reid's question. Chatham--Kent--Essex is under the provincial quotient. Is there any piece that touches on that border that should be going over to Chatham--Kent--Essex?

Hon. Susan Whelan: Well, this is the difficulty you have. If you start, you would start to carve up either the town of...if you look just to the left of the town....

» (1755)

The Chair: At that chunk?

Hon. Susan Whelan: Well, that's not a chunk any more. This is all one now, that's the problem. This is now all the town of Lakeshore. This used to be a chunk that you could separate. There was a chunk here called Tilbury West and a chunk here called Tilbury North. It would have made sense.

But this is now all the town of Lakeshore, which is problematic, because when we did this the last time, we did suggest that Tilbury North and Tilbury West should have gone in this direction. It didn't. Now they're all trying to come together, and it's difficult.

The Chair: So no is the answer?

Hon. Susan Whelan: At this present time I would say no.

Mr. Scott Reid: I have to say these municipal amalgamations were very ill-advised in many cases, in my opinion.

There is only one other thing I can see there, and I don't know anything about it, again. Is Pelee Island a separate municipality? I guess the question is, where does the ferry--

The Chair: The ferry leaves from Kingsville.

Hon. Susan Whelan: Well, in fact, I should clarify that. The ferry leaves from Kingsville for half the days and from Leamington for the other half of the days.

About 200 people live on Pelee Island. I think there are 182 voters in total. They want to know why we're more concerned about counting the blue racer snakes than about the number of people who live there right now, because there used to be 2,000 people who lived there and it's down to fewer than 200 permanent residents.

They feel more connected to this community, in some ways, although they do use the airport out of Leamington. And the problem is, the flights they have go to the city airport in the winter right now. So they would like to be able to use this....

The Chair: So 200 people isn't really going to affect the numbers?

Ms. Susan Whelan: Yes.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Reid, do you have any more questions?

Mr. Scott Reid: No, I think we're out.

The Chair: Good. Thank you.

All right. Madam Minister, thank you very much for appearing before our committee.

While Mr. Reid and I might be able to go in camera and decide the B.C. report, I think we need the rest of the members.

So we will adjourn.