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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, June 3, 2003

1615

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

The Chair

Mr. David Price

The Chair

Mr. David Price

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. David Price

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. David Price

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

1620

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. David Price

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. David Price

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. David Price

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. David Price

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. David Price

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. David Price

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

1625

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

1630

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John McKay

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

1635

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. John McKay

The Chair

The Hon. Don Boudria (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.)

The Chair

1640

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

1645

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

1650

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

1655

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Don Boudria

1700

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Don Boudria

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Don Boudria

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

1705

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ)

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

1710

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Rick Borotsik

1715

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

1720

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

1725

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

1730

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle)

The Chair

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Michel Guimond

1735

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Chair

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Chair

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

1740

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

1745

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

1750

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Georges Farrah

1755

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Marcel Proulx

1800

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 015

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, June 3, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

º (1615)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I will call this meeting to order. We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

We are meeting this afternoon to hear from witnesses from Quebec and Ontario. In the absence of the people from Ontario, we will start with Mr. Price from Compton--Stanstead.

[Translation]

Welcome, Mr. Price. I believe you have something to tell us.

[English]

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.) Merci, madame la présidente.

Basically, in my riding, in general everything is fine, but what I'm looking at are two municipalities, the municipality of Lennoxville and the municipality of Bromptonville. All I'm looking at is an interchange of the two. As it is now, I have agreement with all of the mayors concerned and all of the borough presidents concerned.

[Translation]

Mr. Cardin, of the Bloc Québécois, agrees. I would even say that he agrees 200 per cent.

[English]

All of the surrounding MPs are in favour. All of the surrounding MNAs are in favour. Everybody is in favour.

It's not really...I hate to say illogical, but that's what it comes down to. The problem is that Bromptonville is an industrial town much more attached to the Sherbrooke riding. The municipality of Lennoxville, which is part of the Sherbrooke amalgamation, is more semi-rural and therefore fits much better into Compton--Stanstead. People from the Compton--Stanstead riding have their services in Lennoxville. They do their shopping there. On the Bromptonville side, people have their services and do their shopping in Sherbrooke. Physically, the Lennoxville area is more attached to Compton--Stanstead and Bromptonville is more attached to Sherbrooke.

Those are the basic arguments. They're pretty straightforward. I'd be very open to questions. I tried to keep it nice and simple, a one pager.

As I said, everyone around is in agreement. They've all been talked to. I put it down there. Since then, I have talked to the new MNAs who surround the area, all of whom are also in favour.

[Translation]

The Chair: Are there any questions?

[English]

Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Can we start again?

The Chair: Do we have the figures, André?

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): The population of Lennoxville is 4,963.

The Chair: Mr. Price, what did they consult on for the name of your riding?

Mr. David Price: They brought it back to the original name.

The Chair: But what did they consult it on? I'm trying to find it in the book.

Mr. David Price: The original? They called it Memphremagog.

The Chair: Okay, thank you. That's what I was looking at.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): That was the original proposal?

Mr. David Price: They saw right off that it didn't really make a lot of sense.

Mr. André Cyr: The population of Bromptonville is 5,570.

The Chair: Where does it put his riding if we add what he wants?

Mr. André Cyr: There's a difference of 500. It'll be less than half a per cent.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Six of one and a half dozen of another.

The Chair: If we add the two zones, it puts him where in terms of provincial quotient? He's minus two right now.

Mr. André Cyr: It would be minus 1.5%.

The Chair: That's it? Who gets the community that you're...?

Mr. David Price: The riding of Sherbrooke.

The Chair: The riding of Sherbrooke. Where is Sherbrooke at?

Mr. André Cyr: Just a moment.

The Chair: It's a more urban population so it could support it.

A voice: It's totally urban.

Mr. André Cyr: It's at plus 1%.

º (1620)

The Chair: So it might make it 1.4% or something. Okay.

[Translation]

Are there any further questions?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Does everyone agree with this? Are all your neighbours in favour?

Mr. David Price: All our neighbours, all the mayors, all the reeves, and all the MNAs are in favour of this.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Do we know why they want to change this?

Mr. David Price: No, we have not been able to understand why. My riding completely surrounded Sherbrooke. At least now, there is some connection to the outside. The main reason is because all the parts do not really go together. You would get a rural area put with the city, and an industrial area with a rural area.

[English]

Mr. Scott Reid: The two areas, the towns, are they still independent municipalities or have they been merged?

Mr. David Price: No. They are all part of Sherbrooke.

Mr. Scott Reid: And Sherbrooke now is too large to have a single riding.

Mr. David Price: Yes, it's at 140,000.

Mr. Scott Reid: What's the average size in Quebec, 96,000 or 97,000, something like that?

Mr. David Price: It is 96,000.

A voice: It's 96,900.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay.

The Chair: Okay, 96,000.

[Translation]

Okay. Are there any other questions?

[English]

Thank you very much, Mr. Price.

Mr. David Price: Thank you, very much.

The Chair: We'll now switch over to Mr. McKay, who must have gotten lost on the way here.

Mr. John McKay: No, I was tied up.

I want you to recognize the spelling first.

The Chair: Of McKay?

Mr. John McKay: Of Pictou--Antigonish, and I am supporting the dissolution of that riding.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. John McKay: I thought I'd use a visual.

The Chair: Oh, wow.

Mr. John McKay: Do you like my visual? Does it make any sense to you?

This is the riding as it currently exists, roughly this area here. The proposal is to take this area and divide it and run it down here, take this half, which is in Toronto, and shoot it over to Pickering.

What you're doing is taking this chunk of the constituency, transporting it, if you will, across the largest urban wilderness park in North America and saying, oh well, don't worry about it; even though this part is in Toronto and this part is in Durham, you're going to represent two. If I could go to your territory, Madam Chair, it's like taking a piece of Etobicoke and sticking it in Mississauga. These are, if you will, the 905 and 416 boundaries. Over here, the east side of the Rouge River will be 905. On the other side of the Rouge River, it will be 416.

For the period of time, whoever represents this particular riding will never know whether they are a representative of Toronto or whether they are a representative of the Durham region. This is a bizarre solution to a difficulty where on the numbers, I think, Scarborough will be entitled to five and a half ridings and Durham will be entitled to four and a half ridings.

I understand what the rationale is, but I'm distinctly unsympathetic to the proposed solution. The 401 goes through the riding, and you might as well put up the Berlin Wall between the two communities because a community of interest just doesn't exist. There is a 905 mentality and a 416 mentality. There is no public transit between the two. If people on this side want to visit the constituency office over here, they're going to catch a taxi one way or another. And if you locate the constituency office over here, you're going to do the same thing.

There are a number of things. You've got the Durham region, which is a regional government in and of itself. There's no equivalent in Toronto. Toronto is simply a government in and of itself. So you've got another layer of government. You've got different councillors over here and different councillors over here. At all the various levels of government, the province has up to now followed the federal boundaries, and I relate to the MPP for the area. Now I'll relate to, and I don't know who, an MPP over here and another MPP over there. There just doesn't seem to be any consistency or logic to the whole thing.

I appreciate the need to adjust the numbers. On the other hand, this seems to be one of the more bizarre solutions to adjusting the numbers. I'm particularly upset by the fact that I was a bit blindsided by this. The initial draft had some adjustments between Scarborough--Rouge River and my riding of Scarborough East. That in and of itself was an acceptable adjustment. It ran along Sheppard Avenue and was kind of a clean cut down Markham Road. Mr. Lee went down a few thousand and I went up a few thousand. That kind of got us within the provincial territorial average. But this simply came right out of the blue and the first time I read about it was when it was published in the book.

Those are the various reasons that this is going to be a virtually impossible riding to represent. You'll always be either a Toronto MP or a Durham MP. You can't be both. To use another example, you can't be an Ottawa MP and be a Gatineau MP. That's the equivalency of the division.

º (1625)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That would be nice.

Mr. John McKay: It would also be extremely difficult.

Anyway, that is what the commission has stuck me with. I'm obviously not a happy camper by being stuck with this, but my happiness is not overly germane or relevant. I think it is a lousy deal for the constituents on both sides of the Rouge Valley. The folks over here clearly relate to another two different sets of governments compared to the folks on this side. They don't see themselves as having any kind of a community of interest.

I'll answer whatever questions I can.

The Chair: The commission listened to the City of Toronto, which said that they could support constituencies that went beyond it.

Mr. John McKay: Yes, I tracked that down. That is one councillor in Etobicoke saying they had no objection. That's what I understand that comment to be.

So if you're in Etobicoke, you might as well be in another part of the world from Scarborough. It would have been nice had they at least phoned us up and said, here's what we're thinking about doing. This is a hugely dramatic change in how an MP would represent this particular area. I reject absolutely that the City of Toronto was in any way meaningfully consulted on this issue.

The Chair: Let's clarify it. Was the City of Toronto itself represented at the public hearings?

Mr. John McKay: That I cannot answer because I was not there. What I'm told is that a councillor from Etobicoke made that representation on behalf of the City of Toronto.

The Chair: We'll have to find out, because that's not what's represented here. In other cases where city councillors made comments, they were referred to by the city councillor.

Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: I just wanted to ask a question. I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the City of Toronto did make some kind of fairly detailed written report to the commission, which of course I haven't seen. Do you know of its existence?

Mr. John McKay: No, I don't know of the existence of that at all.

Mr. Scott Reid: I have another question. One of the problems we would have in trying to make a recommendation for a change is that we would need to have some form of suggestion as to how this could be done. Obviously that would impact not only on your own constituency but on the surrounding ones. I'm just wondering if you have any recommendations you would care to make.

Mr. John McKay: The initial draft proposal was perfectly acceptable to the three members who would have been affected: Mr. Lee, Mr. Cannis, and me. It adjusted the numbers close to the average. Certainly this one is not.

Mr. Scott Reid: You can tell me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression from looking at the map that your boundaries with Scarborough--Rouge River have shifted, as I think have those with Scarborough Centre and Scarborough Southwest. Are you losing a lot of people to the west?

What I'm wondering about here is, if you're trying to make an adjustment from what is proposed here, would you have to move your constituency back, take more of those two ridings?

Mr. John McKay: Basically it's one-third, two-thirds: one-third east, two-thirds west. Ironically, I live right on that very edge of the valley, so for this side I'd be out of the riding and for this side I'd be in the riding, but I wouldn't be in the major part of the riding, which is in Pickering. How bizarre is that!

The proposal is to create a riding called Scarborough--Guildwood, which would push over into Scarborough Centre and run up Brimley Road, essentially. Probably that's an adjustable part. That's not that difficult.

Mr. Scott Reid: The boundary running along Highland Creek, is that a significant area or is it not significant?

Mr. John McKay: No, it's not nearly in the order of magnitude as this barrier. The creek is just that; it is a creek, as opposed to a river.

º (1630)

Mr. Scott Reid: Are there more roads crossing it?

Mr. John McKay: Yes, and there's public transit crossing it. That's the key thing here.

Mr. Scott Reid: What does cross the Rouge River? I can see the 401 from that map.

Mr. John McKay: The 401 crosses the Rouge River. Kingston Road crosses the Rouge River and then there's nothing because it dribbles off into a winding little strip of road, which eventually ends up in Pickering. Then you've got the zoo, and that is a no man's land, if you will, as well.

Mr. Scott Reid: And then toward the lake I see that the railroad track crosses it. Does anything else cross the Rouge River south of the 401?

Mr. John McKay: No. You can't cross the river south of the 401 unless you want to swim.

Mr. Scott Reid: So essentially, the 401 would be it. That's how you'd get from one half of the riding to the other. You have to get on the 401 and get off again.

Mr. John McKay: Yes. Well, you can use Kingston Road.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): I apologize for being late, Mr. McKay. I was dealing with mad cow.

I have a couple of questions. You're currently Scarborough East. In the original plan, as is identified in this first proposal by the commission, Scarborough East remains Scarborough East and the boundary was at Sheppard Avenue, as you indicated.

Mr. John McKay: Yes, that's right.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You were not unhappy with that particular proposal and you didn't make any representation because--

Mr. John McKay: No, I thought that the draft was pretty well it.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, you're not the first person to tell us that story, Mr. McKay, believe me. There will be a number of trees dying in order for us to get that message across.

However, I think you referred to the 401 as the Berlin Wall.

Mr. John McKay: That's about it.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Is Sheppard not north of the 401?

Mr. John McKay: Sheppard is north of the 401.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So when you had your original proposal--

Mr. John McKay: Yes, what happens to Sheppard is that it comes down to Meadowvale and merges. So it stays on the Toronto side. It does eventually cross the valley in a bizarre little way.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, but the original proposal had your riding on the north side of the 401?

Mr. John McKay: Yes, and that still stays.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But you said that was impossible because the 401 was like the Berlin Wall.

Mr. John McKay: The Berlin Wall I'm referring to is right here.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's the Berlin Wall?

Mr. John McKay: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay. So the 401 is not a Berlin Wall?

Mr. John McKay: Well, the 401 is a breach of the Berlin Wall.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: As I understand, the are two proposals now. There's Scarborough--Guildwood and there's Pickering--Scarborough East. You're saying that you're on the border of both of them as a sitting MP. That's fair ball, but on Pickering--Scarborough East, would the population know there'd be Pickering? Would Pickering be the centre or would Scarborough still be the centre?

Mr. John McKay: Well, I would think it would become dominated by Pickering, because about two-thirds of it is over here and one-third of it would be over here. These people would be orphaned, in my view.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair: I notice that the challenge is that in the Scarborough ridings it's all pretty close to the quotient, with the exception of the Scarborough--Rouge River, which is 7% over. All the others are under. Your proposal to stay on this side of the Rouge River will mean a huge domino right across. Is there some way to go north? Is there some other option anywhere?

º (1635)

Mr. John McKay: Yes, possibly there is. In my view, the Rouge River should be your boundary. You could go north a bit and possibly even into Markham a lot easier than you could go across the Rouge. How you would adjust all of that I don't pretend to know, but if you wanted to keep some riding integrity, I'd push north rather than push east. I would, as much as possible, stay consistent with the regional municipality governments. As you well know, Madam Chair, the sensitivities of the 905 belt versus the 401 sects are quite large.

The Chair: But the challenge is, is there not a Berlin Wall at the north that would prevent you from going up into Markham?

Mr. John McKay: No. You see, the crossover into Markham is Steeles, and Steeles at that point is a rural area. So you'd be picking it up--

The Chair: This week.

Mr. John McKay: Yes, this week. Well, we're just dealing with five-year segments or seven-year segments, or whatever the number is.

The Chair: So we need to check what happened with the City of Toronto. Clearly, there's a difference between what it consulted on and what it came up with.

Does the northern boundary that it added along the valley go up north between Finch and--

Mr. John McKay: I think it ran it all the way up to Finch.

The Chair: So it's Finch versus Sheppard?

Mr. John McKay: Yes.

The Chair: Any other questions?

Okay, thank you very much.

André, what are the splits between the Pickering side and the Scarborough East side?

Mr. André Cyr: It is 46,000 on the Toronto side and 60,000 on the Pickering side.

Mr. John McKay: So it's basically 60-40.

The Chair: So it's really a question of making up the difference in the other Durham ridings.

Mr. Boudria, the government House leader, is on map number 12, and in the consultation document he's in map number 3 on page 102.

[Translation]

The Hon. Don Boudria (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.): You had that, Madam Chair.

[English]

The Chair: He brought his own maps.

[Translation]

Is there a copy for everyone, or just for me?

º (1640)

Mr. Don Boudria: There is a copy for everyone. I was told there were six committee members, and I brought a copy for everyone.

[English]

The Chair: If we can get members to share and give one to the interpreter, that will make the interpreter happy.

[Translation]

Mr. Boudria, we should always think of the interpreters.

Mr. Don Boudria: Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank the subcommittee for the work it has done so far, and also for giving me this opportunity today to explain myself, even if my primary reason for being here is to invite you to approve the final proposal put forward by the Electoral Boundaries Commission.

With respect to my own riding, I am in favour of the commission's overall approach.

[English]

On the occasion of my presentation to the commission last November 4, I expressed satisfaction with the boundaries as they now exist in the Glengarry portion of my riding. I thought that was fine. I did have a minor problem but the commission fixed it.

However, the final report removed the entire portion over here. That's not the final report map?

The Chair: It's the current map, it's the dark brown one.

Mr. Don Boudria: Okay, the brown map then removed it. This is not in my riding anymore. The area I am outlining now is called the amalgamated township of South Glengarry. I have been representing Lancaster township and the village of Lancaster. That has now been taken away and put in the riding of Stormont--Dundas--Charlottenburgh, which is now Stormont--Dundas--South Glengarry.

It removes a very small number of people from my riding, disrupts what these people have been used to, and makes this riding more populated than mine. My argument is that if this riding can be slightly more populated than mine, surely mine can be slightly more populated, given that the difference is almost the same either way, and then it would not disturb the people who are living there.

My point is to ask that the people who live in former Lancaster township and Lancaster village remain in Glengarry--Prescott--Russell. Numerically, it would make my riding 102,000 people. I understand the quotient is 107,000 anyway. It would make the riding of Stormont--Dundas--Charlottenburgh at 94,500, which would be 12% under the quotient, but that is fully within the scope anyhow.

That is the point I am making this afternoon. In other words, it is for the yellow portion, that's been so ably outlined right now, to remain in my constituency. The yellow portion has a little dot on the west side of it, which is actually a little village, and I would like it to remain in my constituency. That's all.

[Translation]

The Chair: How many people would this involve, Mr. Cyr?

Mr. André Cyr: There are 4,600 people in this area, including the inhabitants of Lancaster.

Mr. Don Boudria: Here is the village of Lancaster. It is shown. We could not see it a few moments ago.

[English]

We actually see the village, which doesn't have a mayor anymore. The whole thing is an amalgamated municipality.

The Chair: So if it's amalgamated into the other riding, why would we move it into your riding?

Mr. Don Boudria: First of all, it's a two-level municipality, as we have in Ontario. In other words, all of it is called Stormont--Dundas--Glengarry. The city of Cornwall is not in that. It is already excluded. What we have now is a united county level, and no matter how you cut it, you're not going to have everything together. That's not possible. The commission hasn't even proposed it, so that's not at stake.

The Chair: I would like it clarified. Is Stormont--Dundas--South Glengarry all one municipality?

Mr. Don Boudria: Yes, but it already excludes North Glengarry, which is the populated part and, no matter what, will stay in my riding. Nobody has even proposed to change it. So it won't be united.

º (1645)

Mr. Scott Reid: That map shows different constituencies, not different counties.

The Chair: I was just looking to see if any of that amalgamated group was in his riding.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, one part is.

Mr. Don Boudria: Either way, that's going to be the case.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Regarding Lancaster and South Glengarry, would their community of interest and retail community not be Cornwall?

Mr. Don Boudria: No. That's the problem.

In fact, what you have is that for the west part of South Glengarry over here on the map, what we used to call Charlottenburgh township, Cornwall is right there, so they're definitely an extension of Cornwall. Most of the rest of them are an extension of a dot right there, which is the town of Alexandria, and it's not the same. It's largely not even the same at the linguistic level and so on. That line showing there is Highway 34; it goes like that, like this and roughly like that, and links Lancaster to Hawkesbury, Hawkesbury being there, Lancaster being here and Alexandria being just north of where you change--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So there wouldn't be any sort of east-west movement there between--

Mr. Don Boudria: There is some, because Highway 401 is right there, but when you get over here, you see, you really get into people, many of them, who actually work in Montreal. They don't work anywhere in Ontario anyway. This is so far in eastern Ontario that if you live there and you say “I'm going to town to shop”, you don't mean Hawkesbury, you don't mean Ottawa, and you don't mean Cornwall, you mean Montreal. Montreal is “aller en ville”; it gets that far east.

The Chair: Where is your constituency office?

Mr. Don Boudria: There are three of them, Madam Chair. Let me point them out to you on the map. One of them is about there; that community is known as Rockland. One of them is there, in Hawkesbury, and one of them is here, in Alexandria, right about here.

The Chair: So if you didn't have Lancaster, you could eliminate one constituency office?

Mr. Don Boudria: No.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Not really.

The Chair: It's good that you have helpers.

Mr. Don Boudria: No, no--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, but I know the area very well. You can't ask people from Alexandria to go to Hawkesbury, nor can you ask them to go to Rockland.

Mr. Don Boudria: It so happens, Madam Chair, that the member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell was born in Hull, and the member for Hull was born in Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, and his grandfather was my predecessor.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What he doesn't tell you, though, is that I would qualify him as having been the third best, the first one being my great-grandfather, the second being my grandfather, and the third being Mr. Boudria.

An hon. member: My gosh.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Rather than family trees, if I could get back--

The Chair: We're going to rename the riding “Boudria-land”.

An hon. member: Boom-boom Boudria.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: The original proposal put forward, this proposal, included that portion originally in the riding. Is that correct?

Mr. Don Boudria: That's correct. It wanted to put the entire yellow part in my riding. The existing condition is that this part is in my riding and this part is in the next one.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Exactly.

Mr. Don Boudria: I think it went from extreme to another. The original proposal proposed to put the entire thing in my riding, even though this is basically an extension of Cornwall. Now they've completely reversed it, thinking they'd put the entire thing with Cornwall, even though this part is more closely associated with--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So essentially the only change would be a 4,000 population to one at the expense of 4,000 population to the other. That's the balancing.

Mr. Don Boudria: That's correct.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: There are numbers--

The Chair: It's below 10% on Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Below 10%. Okay.

The Chair: Up to what, André?

Mr. André Cyr: One moment--

The Chair: Ten per cent below the quotient, but it is rural--

º (1650)

Mr. Don Boudria: I think one is below 5% and the other below 10%.

Mr. André Cyr: Currently they're respectively at minus 8% for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry and minus 9% for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell.

I'll move the area in yellow in Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, so the numbers are minus 12% for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry and minus 5% for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell.

The Chair: And no name change from one year to the next.

Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Would you let the other riding be called Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry so it's also South Glengarry?

Mr. Don Boudria: If I may, I don't pretend to speak on behalf of Mr. Kilger, but probably the best solution is to leave the existing name on both sides, in other words, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell for one and Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh for the other, but on that score perhaps it would be prudent to consult Mr. Kilger. It doesn't really make any difference. It's not a major thing, but if you ask me for my preference, I would say--

The Chair: Boudria-land.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Now that we're moving part of South Glengarry into his riding--

Mr. Don Boudria: Yes.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: I appreciate the community of interest concerns you've raised. I want to draw two things to your attention, remembering always that we don't make the final decision. We pass recommendations on to the commission and there's no point in our making a recommendation if it's something the commission is unlikely to accept.

I note two considerations that the commission has appeared to have taken into account in its design of constituencies, which I think would be violated by your proposal as it currently stands.

The first one is that as far as I know they have not divided a single bottom-tier municipality of this size anywhere in the province. I could be wrong on that, but I believe that nothing of South Glengarry's population has been divided, and I suspect they would be resistant, whereas they seem to have been willing to move the entire township either north or south. That's the first consideration.

The second one is that under the proposal, unless there's some compensating movement of some other municipality from somewhere else--not necessarily from your constituency, it could be from somewhere else--I suspect they would be reluctant to accept a constituency in Stormont--Dundas that is 12.4% under. I say this because the smallest riding south of Lake Nipissing that they've drawn is Leeds--Grenville, and I think it's tied with Renfrew--Nipissing at minus 10.4%. So this is a movement away.

In saying this, I'm leading up to asking whether you think there could be some compensating movement somewhere else.

Mr. Don Boudria: I would really be stretching it if I said that I knew of a consideration like that. That's something only Mr. Kilger would know. There are none in the periphery of my constituency that I can see, no. This is largely the uninhabited area here, south of St. Isidore, with Highway 417 roughly along that access. It's largely forested in the neighbouring area south of there and north of there, so no, there is nothing, unless there was something over here someplace as it fronts on the riding currently represented by Mr. Jordan, but I wouldn't know that. No, I can't say I do.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay.

The Chair: What's the local flavour, Mr. Boudria? Are people asking you to do this?

Mr. Don Boudria: I've sent a letter by North Glengarry. This is paradoxical because it doesn't really help us. North Glengarry wanted all of Glengarry to be together. This proposal is exactly half and half, so that doesn't do it.

The Chair: But asking for a quarter and three-quarters doesn't either.

Mr. Don Boudria: Yes, that's it. In other words, my proposal at least leaves it where it is, with three-quarters of Glengarry in my riding. Arguably it's 50% better than what's there now.

º (1655)

The Chair: Except if you're in the last quarter and feeling lonely.

Mr. Don Boudria: That's a good point, because in fact the people near Charlottenburgh are largely Cornwall commuters. The map shows this road here, which is called Boundary Road, and the postal address is Cornwall, Ontario, regardless of which side you live on. You're really an extension of Cornwall. The phone numbers are Cornwall 931 and 938 phone numbers and that sort of thing. It's clearly an extension of the city of Cornwall even if you're technically not in Cornwall.

That's certainly not true if you live in the village of North Lancaster or other communities over there. That's not so. You're just not part of Cornwall.

The Chair: Okay. We'll consult with the ouija board and check to see what Mr. Proulx's ancient relatives want us to do.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: How long has South Glengarry, these two parts, been together, Mr. Boudria?

Mr. Don Boudria: Since the last municipal amalgamation, only one election. They're still in their first term, aren't they?

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: They amalgamated in 2001, at the same time as Ottawa.

[English]

Mr. Don Boudria: Since 2001, but when I ran in my last election, this part and that part had two separate mayors: one here and one there, and there was one for the village. So they actually had three mayors: one here, one there, and one for the little village right there.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What I'm trying to establish is that in the entire yellow area are two distinct societies or two distinct groups.

The Chair: Distinct societies?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In eastern Ontario you have that sometimes--also. The one in the west, as Mr. Boudria was saying, is closely related to Cornwall, whereas for the one in the east it's either Alexandria or the province of Quebec.

The Chair: Will this affect the election outcome for you?

Mr. Don Boudria: Probably, shall we say, revenue neutral.

The Chair: Revenue neutral.

An hon. member: It might affect his opponents a little bit longer than that.

Mr. Godin, last question.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Boudria, when the commission decided to make this change, what in your opinion was its intent? As you say, it doesn't really matter which way the figures go; one riding or the other will get this part. But there should be some rationale for it.

Mr. Don Boudria: In fact, there are two rationales, because the commission changed its mind twice.

Here is the boundary before it was changed. When it was changed, this entire part was put into my riding. Then, as you can see on the second map, they took this whole part away from my riding. There are three different lines here: the current boundaries, the lines on the first map, which we saw on the newspaper, and the lines on the second map. We should not ask what their reasons are, but rather what their reasons were, given that the boundaries changed each time there was a new map. This changes nothing with respect to the population.

It doesn't matter whether my riding has 4,000 people more than the neighbouring riding, or whether the neighbouring riding has 4,000 people more than mine—in any case, one of them will have 4,000 people more. What I am trying to explain is that those people have been in that riding since 1952, and now they are being put into another riding for no particular reason. That is all I am trying to say.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Boudria, are there any other changes being made to the riding?

Mr. Don Boudria: Yes. If I may, Madam Chair, I will explain the other small change that has taken place. It affects a very small area. I will ask our assistant to show you the map.

Here, there has been a small change to the map. In the first map, the line was there, while in the second map, it is here. The area involved here is only about one square mile. That's all.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is this an area you had before the changes, or an area that you will have now?

Mr. Don Boudria: The riding is losing about one square mile, or even a little more—about two square miles. It's one mile by one mile here, and one mile by one mile there. So perhaps about two square miles are being taken from the riding. It includes new projects that were part of the Orléans extension, which was combined with the rest of Orléans. That doesn't worry me.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That makes sense.

Mr. Don Boudria: Yes, it does. I have no problem with that at all. I did not even mention it.

» (1700)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay.

[English]

The Chair: I have one last question. I apologize, colleagues. Apparently page 12 of the report talks about uniting the francophone populations around the city of Cornwall. Is there anything we should know about?

Mr. Don Boudria: [Inaudible--Editor]...argue that. Can I look at the rest? If you can give me back the map, I will explain some of this. That is factually the opposite. Alexandria is shown here. That is the concentration in Glengarry. The francophone population is here in Prescott and to some measure in Russell, particularly around Embrun, Casselman, and St. Isidore over there.

Glengarry is approximately 60% English and 40% French, except that Alexandria is approximately the reverse and it is over there. The spillover of francophones is largely in this area, where people typically have names like Jeaurond, Valiquette, and names like that. You'll find them all in that area. The French cultural centre is over here in Alexandria, le centre culturel Les trois p'tits points..., the francophone businesses,

[Translation]

The Lalonde market and all the others are here, in Alexandria. I don't really understand why the commission would want to amalgamate francophones from here with francophones from Cornwall, and ignore the anglophones who are there. It's going a bit far, because there are very few there. There are some here, and more in the eastern part of Cornwall. I don't think this is very logical. The francophone community here would be much better off amalgamated with Alexandria. That's where Sacré-Coeur parish and everything else is.

[English]

The Chair: I'm not positive, but I thought the reason they were doing it was to bolster the French population around Cornwall.

Mr. Don Boudria: Oh, it would do that, yes. Definitely, if you take the francophones from here and “unite” them, because they're not really united, you go over a group that isn't with the francophones over here, of course it adds to the francophones in the overall next door constituency, but that doesn't mean these two groups are united with each other. They're separated from each other physically. But there's no doubt it would bolster the number in the other riding. Of course it would.

The Chair: Back to that distinct society thing.

Okay, merci beaucoup, Monsieur Boudria.

Mr. Reid has another question.

Mr. Scott Reid: One more question. In my own constituency I can think of a couple of places where people are talking about municipalities that were merged together, where some of the locals would like them to be de-merged. You are proposing a split in an existing lower-tier municipality. Is there any talk in this municipality of de-merging? That would give some strength to your case, I think.

Mr. Don Boudria: No, there is no such talk of that, but by the way, when we are talking about so-called de-merging, remember that we're not creating that condition. That is the case. This part is in Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, this part is in the riding of Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh. In other words, what I am bringing to your attention is not to create a new condition, it is to keep an existing one.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, I accept that.

Mr. Don Boudria: But I don't sense any appetite for Charlottenburgh to be split from Lancaster or from Lancaster village. No, I think those days are gone.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Boudria.

We should have asked about that big pink square there, if it could have just gone in with the grey, then we could have had both.

Mr. Scott Reid: Is that the one up in the left-hand corner?

The Chair: No, down over here between 64.

Mr. Scott Reid: I think it's much more populous, though.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: There's nobody there. Most of that area is forest. That's what he was saying. It's south of Highway 417.

The Chair: How many people live in that square right there, André?

Mr. Scott Reid: You are talking about Russell.

The Chair: No, no, just right beside it.

Mr. Scott Reid: Russell, yes.

Mr. André Cyr: Twelve thousand who might want to stay in Glengarry—Prescott—Russell.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Oh, definitely.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Laframboise, what is the new name of your riding?

» (1705)

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Madam Chair, the new name is "Trois-Seigneuries". I have expressed two objections to the commission, one about the name, and the other about the boundaries.

[English]

Mr. André Cyr: Here it is.

An hon. member: But it's called de l'Outaouais.

The Chair: All right.

Monsieur Laframboise.

[Translation]

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have submitted two objections to your subcommittee. The first is about the new name. You have seen the new name that is being imposed on us—Trois-Seigneuries. The first name was “de l'Outaouais”. In any case, regardless of the actual name the commission wants to impose, the political communities of the riding have always refused to have a single name. I could table resolutions by regional county municipalities, municipalities and other organizations to that effect. The riding brings together three full RCMs—Argenteuil, Papineau and Mirabel—which together account for about 80 per cent of the riding. The communities want both socio-economical and political recognition.

We argued our case before the commission. The Quebec commissioners said they did not want compound names in Quebec. That is rather difficult for us, because just on the other side of the river we have our colleague Don Boudria's riding, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, which is right on the Ontario boundary. People are wondering why an Ontario riding can have a name like Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, but in Quebec, a riding cannot have a name like Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel. Mr. Boudria's riding name has 26 characters and ours 27, including hyphens. This is how the Chief Electoral Officer works it out. The community therefore has difficulty understanding why the commission would inflict so unsuitable a name as Trois-Seigneuries on the riding.

In Quebec, as you know, there were two kinds of land divisions. There were seigniories, established under the French system, and townships, established under the English system. In Papineau, the three seigniories make up only one-third of the riding, while the other two-thirds are composed of townships. The three seigniories were set up under the French system along the Outaouais River. Thurso, Saint-Sixte, Saint-André-Avellin and Notre-Dame-de-Bon-Secours are municipalities in the seigniories. Further up are the townships, including Mayo, Ripon, Boileau and Grenville. The seigniories are here, and the rest of the riding is made up of townships. People do not feel represented by the name Trois-Seigneuries.

The commission considered the name “de l'Outaouais” because the riding is along the Outaouais River. I probably offended the Electoral Boundaries Commission Chair by telling him that no one who knew anything about the riding would even consider that name. The chair said that I was insulting his intelligence. He had probably chosen that name himself. The truth is that no one in Outaouais would have chosen the name “de l'Outaouais”. The name Trois-Seigneuries was suggested by some community representatives who did not want the name “de l'Outaouais”. They might have chosen it because of the Seigneurie du Lac-des-Deux-Montagnes, which runs up to there, the Seigneurie Papineau, and the Seigneurie d'Argenteuil. However, all parts of the riding above the line I have drawn here are made up of townships, not seigniories. The people in those communities do not feel they are represented by the name Trois-Seigneuries. We therefore ask that the riding keep its current name of Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.

Anyway, as I explained earlier, Mr. Boudria's riding is Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, and the Ontario commission accepted that name, which is 26 characters long. Ours is 27 characters long.

» (1710)

We have a saying that goes: What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. That is exactly what we would like to see here.

Do you have any questions about the name?

The Chair: Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In the report prepared by the Quebec Electoral Boundaries Commission, we see the names Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, which has 33 characters, and Rivière-du-Loup—Montmagny, which has 25 characters. So I don't see why the gander can't get what the goose has. It's the same commission, after all.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Exactly.

The Chair: When I looked at the list of ridings, I noted that none of them had more than two parts, for example Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine. Perhaps this was a principle established by the Quebec commission. Every commission did things somewhat differently. I don't think there are any other three-section riding names in Quebec. In Ontario, however, there are three-section riding names.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Madam Chair, the names in the other ridings at least have some significance for the community. In our riding, nobody uses the name Trois-Seigneuries.

[English]

The Chair: What I said was just in terms of the difference between Ontario and Quebec. It just looks like Quebec hasn't gone to threesomes, it has only gone to twosomes. Perhaps it's a marriage thing.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: We certainly won't go there, will we? Threesomes or twosomes, I don't think we're going to go there.

I agree with the name and the name doesn't bother me, but you never mentioned at all the areas that are taken out of your constituency in this proposal.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would have to say the second opposition.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Do you have another position? Okay, good. Okay, I just want to talk about that.

» (1715)

[Translation]

The Chair: Are there any other questions about the name?

Mr. Guimond.

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Laframboise, I believe you have been involved in municipal government. Can you guarantee that in your riding, nobody would ever say: "I live in Trois-Seigneuries"? This name has absolutely no connection to the riding, does it?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, it does not.

The Chair: What was your second objection to the name?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Our second objection was that the municipality of Saint-Colomban was just taken out of the riding. This municipality has been in the riding since 1933. It is covered by the Mirabel Police Force, and the community has already requested to be amalgamated with the city of Mirabel. Talks on this are still ongoing. It is difficult to understand why this municipality would be taken out of the riding. It was probably done because of its population, because there is absolutely no geographic reason for taking Saint-Colomban out of the riding.

The populations of Argenteuil and Papineau have not grown significantly. Between the last census and the previous one, Papineau's population increased by 1.5 to 2 per cent, if I remember correctly. Population growth for Argenteuil was very similar. Mirabel's population did grow somewhat, but will not probably continue growing since ADM decided Mirabel airport would no longer receive passenger flights.

I wonder why Saint-Colomban is being put with another riding. There is significant population growth on Montreal's north shore. There are two ridings there, and there has been considerable population growth in Saint-Jérôme and the surrounding area. We have not seen such growth in Argenteuil and Papineau. We have seen some population growth in Mirabel, but the airport will no longer be receiving passenger flights, and we will no doubt feel the repercussions over the next few years.

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Laframboise, in which of the three RCMs is the municipality of Saint-Colomban located?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: It is part of the Rivière-du-Nord RCM.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's another RCM.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Yes, it is. If you look at the bottom of the map, you will see that—as I said at the beginning—three entire RCMs are included in my riding. They are Argenteuil, Papineau et Mirabel. My riding also contains sections of other RCMs, such as Deux-Montagnes and Les Pays-d'en-Haut.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Your riding contains parts of other RCMs?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Can we come back to the map we were looking at earlier? There. Please show us this, Mr. Laframboise.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: This area is part of the Deux-Montagnes RCM. This area here is part of the Rivière-du-Nord RCM. Saint-Colomban is part of the Rivière-du-Nord RCM. These municipalities are part of the Pays-d'en-Haut RCM. So some areas in my riding are part of other RCMs, including Deux-Montagnes and Saint-Colomban.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is the Rivière-du-Nord RCM the only section that is not part of the Rivière-du-Nord riding?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Yes. Let me explain the problem with Saint-Colomban. The Mirabel RCM was created when Mirabel airport was built. Saint-Colomban should always have been part of the Mirabel RCM. At the time, the Mirabel RCM was created at the federal government's request.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So, it is the federal government's fault again.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, not necessarily. Mirabel is a city and an RCM. As an amalgamated municipality, Mirabel was established before the RCMs first appeared in 1982. When the RCMs were established, no one wanted to add municipalities to Mirabel, since Mirabel was already a city and was going to become an RCM all by itself. Laval, which is close by, was in the same position. So it was decided to include Saint-Colomban in the Rivière-du-Nord RCM. However, Saint-Colomban really should be part of Mirabel.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Aside from Saint-Colomban, which you would like to bring back into your riding, are any parts of the Rivière-du-Nord RCM included in your riding?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Argenteuil goes up to... Mille-Îles and Wentworth-Nord are part of the Pays-d'en-Haut RCM.

» (1720)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Did you discuss this issue before the commission?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Yes. Saint-Colomban was never among the municipalities that were taken out.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So it came as a surprise.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Well, the mayor and community of Saint-Colomban never appeared before the commission, because Saint-Colomban was always part of our riding.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So nobody talked about removing Saint-Colomban during the commission hearings?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Nobody ever dared say that Saint-Colomban would be removed. It would have caused a complete uproar, as we see in the municipality resolution I have here. Saint-Colomban is no doubt being taken out for demographic reasons. The commission wanted to comply with the limits it had established, and took out Saint-Colomban to balance out the population. Perhaps our well-informed witness can tell us what the riding population figures would be with and without Saint-Colomban.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Rivière-du-Nord MRC has seen the highest population growth. The Laurentides riding had about 159,000 inhabitants. There was clear population growth there.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Are you aware...

The Chair: André, could we get the exact population figures?

Mr. Michel Guimond: I need the other map.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In the meantime, I have a question for you. Will the entire Rivière-du-Nord RCM be included in the new Rivière-du-Nord riding?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: That is not what we saw when the first map was tabled.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But according to the first map, the entire Rivière-du-Nord RCM would be included in the Rivière-du-Nord riding, and I suppose other areas would be added as well.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The riding would comprise only the RCM?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Yes, only Rivière-du-Nord.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's even worse for you.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: I know, but as I said, the problem is that Saint-Colomban should not be there. If you talk to the mayor about it...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I understand, but as soon as...

Mr. Mario Laframboise: The population in the Rivière-du-Nord RCM is growing very quickly indeed.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I know.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: I would say that the limit will be exceeded by the next census. So what will the commission do then? The Rivière-du-Nord RCM will then have to be divided somehow.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I am trying to think like the commissioners. I presume they had to...

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, we should not think like the commissioners.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So the riding will comprise the entire RCM.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: That's what the commission has done, but you can see what the result is from a geographic standpoint. I don't need to tell you that the people of Saint-Colomban are not happy. In particular, they do not want...

[English]

The Chair: Yes. How many people were there, André?

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: Is the Deux-Montagnes RCM included in its entirety in a single riding, or is part of it in a neighbouring riding?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Part of the Deux-Montagnes RCM is in Mille-Îles. That does not change, however.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Let's come back to the issue of splitting an RCM. Is the Deux-Montagnes RCM included in its entirety in a single riding, or has it been split?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: It has been split, like the Pays-d'en-Haut RCM.

Mr. Michel Guimond: So we cannot say that an RCM cannot be split.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: The RCM was split because of its large population.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I understand. So an RCM can be split. However, on page 87 of the report, the commissioner states: "Furthermore, the Municipality of Saint-Colomban was joined with its RCM La Rivière-du-Nord to keep it intact."

Mr. André Cyr: The municipality of Saint-Colomban has 7,500 inhabitants. With the change, Saint-Colomban could just be brought back into the Trois-Seigneuries riding.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: The Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel riding.

Mr. André Cyr: In the Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel riding, the population is currently 6 per cent under the limit. With the change, it would be 10 per cent over the limit. And according to the final report, the Rivière-du-Nord RCM would make up a single riding.

» (1725)

The Chair: If you add Saint-Colomban to the Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel riding, the population will be 10 per cent over the limit. What about Rivière-du-Nord?

Mr. André Cyr: It is 14 per cent under the limit.

The Chair: Is it smaller geographically than your riding?

Mr. Michel Guimond: Could another part of the riding be transferred to Rivière-du-Nord?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, but the population of the Rivière-du-Nord riding will increase considerably.

We will not have a problem at the next census, but they will, even if their population is now 10 per cent under the limit.

The Chair: At present, the Rivière-du-Nord riding is 6 per cent under the limit, while yours is 2 per cent over the limit.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: You said 6 per cent under the limit earlier, but it is now 2 per cent over the limit. It would go to 10 per cent over the limit.

Mr. André Cyr: Your riding was 2 per cent over, while Rivière-du-Nord was 6 per cent under. With the change, yours would be 10 per cent over and Rivière-du-Nord would be 14 per cent under.

The Chair: Can this change be made more easily?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: It is not a question of making it easily. Saint-Colomban and Rivière-du-Nord are covered by Mirabel's police force and fire department. Their community of interest is there. You have to give a community some reason for moving it to a different riding. It seems to me that the only reasons are demographic. People do not understand why they are being moved. They don't see the justification for moving them, since they get all their services from Mirabel. Rivière-du-Nord has a police force; why doesn't Saint-Colomban turn to them? Because it deals with Mirabel.

The Chair: We represent the federal government, which has no jurisdiction over police forces.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: But as you see on the map, if you take a small area like Saint-Colomban and transfer it to its neighbouring riding, you cut off a whole area. You represent the federal government, and perhaps that is why you are doing this.

The Chair: We are trying to achieve a balance among riding populations. The RCMs were established by the province, not by us.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: And that is why you don't always respect RCM boundaries. You put your boundaries elsewhere. I understand that you don't respect RCM boundaries. That is not a problem.

The Chair: These boundaries are being set by the commission, not by us.

Mr. Michel Guimond: We want to try to achieve the best balance possible, so that we can reduce the gap in Rivière-du-Nord, which is 14 per cent below the limit. Could the Mille-Îles bloc be included in Rivière-du-Nord? Is there some area close to the boundary that could be included in Rivière-du-Nord, giving us a better population balance for the riding?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: You would have to include it in the new Labelle riding, and add a bit to the Rivière-du-Nord riding.

Mr. Michel Guimond: There is this area here called Mille-Îles.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: This area could very well be included in Labelle, and some parts of Labelle could be transferred to Rivière-du-Nord. I thought that's what the commission would do, but it did not.

Mr. Michel Guimond: That's what we wanted to hear from you.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: That's a choice they did not make.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Could all of Mille-Îles be transferred to Rivière-du-Nord?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: This section of Mille-Îles could not be included in Rivière-du-Nord, because here...

The Chair: How many people are there in Mille-Îles?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Labelle is here. In my view, Rivière-du-Nord is just this part here.

Mr. Michel Guimond: No, that's not Labelle. Labelle is...

The Chair: Mille-Îles?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Laurentides is the old riding. This is not the new riding of Laurentides.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's only the town of Saint-Jérôme now.

The Chair: How many inhabitants are there?

Mr. André Cyr: There are 1,200 inhabitants in Mille-Îles. There are 7,500 in Saint-Colomban. Saint-Colomban is part of...

The Chair: We need 7,000 inhabitants.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, you don't understand. Bring back the map with Milles-Îles and the RCMs. You don't have the right map. I don't understand. Laurentides is divided up now. Laurentides isn't there.

» (1730)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's because his software just deals with your riding. Watch what happens. He's showing what is happening to the Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel riding. Can you show us what happens to the Laurentides riding? Let us see what is happening in Laurentides and Rivière-du-Nord.

Mr. André Cyr: Laurentides is divided into several ridings. You see the Rivière-du-Nord part.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's right.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: They should have taken this and included it in the new riding of Labelle, and take a part here and put it in Rivière-du-Nord. That is what they should have done, but they didn't do that. That is a choice they made.

Mr. Michel Guimond: The committee can make a recommendation. We could present that argument when we recommend leaving you Saint-Colomban.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Madam Chair, they did that in someone else's case in Ontario.

The Chair: Yes. If you do not like what is being proposed, you need to hear the arguments and find another solution. You can look at the numbers in all the ridings, find a better solution for your riding and come back next week.

If you don't like it you have to find another solution. It's almost impossible for us to simply say we don't accept one thing and we're accepting something else. You choose.

Mr. Michel Guimond: You need the choose the part you would give to Labelle and the part that would be removed from Labelle and put in Rivière-du-Nord, in order to find about 7,200 inhabitants to achieve balanced numbers.

The Chair: I would suggest that you speak with the members you want to trade parts with. If the two other members agree, it will be better for us.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: There will only be one because Labelle...

The Chair: Is this a new riding? Then speak to the Rivière-du-Nord person.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Rivière-du-Nord is the new riding. He needs to speak with the member for Laurentides.

The Chair: You can write us a note or speak to Thomas.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Fine.

The Chair: Thank you very much. Do the proposed changes modify or affect the name? No, not at all?

We will now move to Mr. Bertrand, for Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle. This is it? Is this a new riding called Pontiac?

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle): Madam Chair, I'm not here this afternoon to speak for the riding of Pontiac, because I must say that I am very happy and very pleased about Pontiac riding's new borders.

This afternoon I'm here to speak about the part that was taken from my riding in order to create the new riding of Labelle. Mr. Laframboise spoke about it earlier. It's strictly a name change. People have told me that they prefer the name “Laurentides—Labelle”. Only a third of the territory of the new Labelle riding is currently in the Antoine—Labelle RCM, and the other two-thirds include the Laurentides and the RCM called the Pays -d'en-Haut, I believe; I am not very familiar with the southern part.

People have told me that they would prefer that the riding be called Laurentides—Labelle instead of Labelle.

The Chair: That is all?

Mr. Robert Bertrand: That is all, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Fine.

That makes it simple for us. Why would the name not be “the place with the best skiing in all of North America”?

Mr. Michel Guimond: Mr. Bertrand, this riding would be called Laurentides—Labelle?

Mr. Robert Bertrand: That's right: Laurentides—Labelle.

Mr. Michel Guimond: And what would the riding of Laurentides be called? There's also a riding called Laurentides.

» (1735)

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Yes, but a part would be removed from the Laurentides riding. My current riding is Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle. They're taking the Labelle part.

Mr. Michel Guimond: I understand that very well.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: They are going to add that to a part of the Laurentides riding.

The Chair: There is no riding called Laurentides.

Mr. Michel Guimond: There's no Laurentides riding?

Mr. Robert Bertrand: No.

The Chair: No.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Ah, fine.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Therefore it would be Laurentides—Labelle.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Fine.

The Chair: And the rest of the Laurentides riding is in...

Mr. Robert Bertrand: It has been divided up between Argenteuil, Berthier—Maskinongé and Montcalm.

The Chair: Fine. Thank you very much.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I would like to mention that I absolutely agree with the borders for the new Pontiac riding.

The Chair: Be careful because someone might try to remove part of it.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Yes, I will be monitoring that very closely, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. Farrah, Mr. Price has already spoken.

Mr. Georges Farrah (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, Lib.): Yes, he has already spoken.

The Chair: I believe Mr. Farrah is last. What is the name of the new riding?

Mr. Georges Farrah: It is “Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine”.

First, I would like to thank all of you for having me here and giving me the opportunity to propose one change to the most recent map proposed by the Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec.

I must point out that initially the commission had proposed eliminating the Matapédia—Matane riding. All the members for that area, Bloc Québécois and Liberal members, took a position against that in order to not lose their ridings.

We were pleased when the Electoral Boundaries Commission, in its most recent proposal, kept the Matapédia—Matane riding. In order to do that, it decided to keep the number of constituents relatively low compared to the average, but still in compliance with the maximum adjustment allowed under the act, that is 25 per cent.

There's just one problem that we see in the most recent proposal. I sent you a letter as well as copies of the resolutions. We have the support of the Bloc member for Matapédia—Matane and that of both RCMs. To preserve the community of interests, we would like the RCM, la Haute-Gaspésie, to remain in the riding of Matapédia—Matane, in its entirely.

A voice: Which cities does that involve?

Mr. Georges Farrah: It goes from Cap-Chat to Grande-Vallée. We do not want the RCM to be divided up.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the RCM called?

Mr. Georges Farrah: It is the RCM called La Haute-Gaspésie and we want it to remain in Matapédia—Matane.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Fine.

Mr. Georges Farrah: We want the RCM of Avignon to be in Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine. The Avignon RCM has not been subdivided within Matapédia—Matane. We would trade RCMs. One RCM would go to Matapédia—Matane and the other would be included in the Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine riding.

Essentially we would be trading RCMs. The Bloc member for Matapédia—Matane, Jean-Yves Roy, agrees with this. Both RCM reeves have passed resolutions in their respective councils supporting the change.

The RCM called La Haute-Gaspésie is somewhat like the extension of the Matapédia—Matane riding, in terms of their economic interests in the fishery, among other things. However, people who live in the part made up mostly of forests feel more affinity with the Bonaventure region. In fact, many people who come from that part of the Matapédia—Matane riding come to see me in my riding office in New Carlisle, not because they aren't getting good service from Jean-Yves Roy, but because they feel a natural affinity with Bonaventure and New Richmond in terms of the services.

This change has no effect on other ridings. All those involved are unanimous in wanting this change which I feel is very straightforward. Perhaps statistics is the important part. Our averages are not very high, but our variance is less than 25 per cent. The change in RCMs would mean that my riding Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine would have a negative variance of 18 per cent and that of Matapédia—Matane would be 21 per cent. We would therefore be complying with the act because our variance would be less than 25 per cent.

» (1740)

The Chair: André, what are the current numbers?

Mr. André Cyr: Currently, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine is at -15% and Matapédia—Matane, at -20%.

The Chair: What about the RCM called La Haute-Gaspésie?

Mr. André Cyr: There are 12,700 people in La Haute-Gaspésie RCM.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Not all the inhabitants of the Haute-Gaspésie RCM want the change.

Mr. Georges Farrah: We are trading RCMs. We are maintaining the integrity of the RCM territories.

Mr. André Cyr: In Avignon, there are 15,200. Therefore, I can do the transfer.

The Chair: It's more difficult to go to the islands than to the Gaspésie.

Mr. Georges Farrah: The Islands are in my riding.

[English]

The Chair: Is it going to end up bigger?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It doesn't change anything for the--

The Chair: I know, but if we're going to make him smaller--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Oh, I see.

The Chair: It's going to make him bigger and the other guy smaller.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: If you like, I could make a suggestion to balance the numbers. But we will wait.

The Chair: Fine, that's done.

Mr. André Cyr: With the change, Matapédia—Matane would fall to -23% and Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine to -13%.

Mr. Georges Farrah: If the averages are high, it's because we have always wanted to preserve the Matapédia—Matane riding. That's what they had in mind at the time, because much of the population was leaving. If we want to keep the riding, we have to have negative margins.

Can we come back to my riding?

The Chair: Is Matapédia—Matane bigger geographically?

Mr. Georges Farrah: Bigger than Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine? It's about the same.

Mr. André Cyr: It's about the same right now. The current map and the proposed maps include more or less the same amount of land.

The Chair: But what are we proposing?

[English]

You can get the square kilometres.

While he's getting that, Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: For my edification, are we effectively asking to go back to the old boundaries?

The Chair: Not really.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No?

The Chair: No.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, then, with the pointer, if you wouldn't mind--

The Chair: Well, sort of.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, that's what I'm thinking, because you need to go more east-west.

The Chair: On the one piece it is, but on the bottom it's not the old boundaries.

[Translation]

La Haute-Gaspésie will now be in Matapédia—Matane.

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Exactly, it comes down on that--

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: Currently, la Haute-Gaspésie is in Matapédia—Matane. That is also the case for the Avignon RCM.

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay.

The Chair: So those are--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, that's good, I understand.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: With the change, under the new map proposed by the commission, the RCM, La Haute-Gaspésie, will become a new part.

[English]

The Chair: If you blind us with the pointer, you're done.

Mr. Georges Farrah: Sorry.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Guimond.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Mr. Farrah, would you agree with me in saying that we are starting with the eastern extremity of the south shore of Quebec, but that this new division will have a domino effect that will reach all the way to Drummondville?

» (1745)

Mr. Georges Farrah: Not according to what I am suggesting.

Mr. Michel Guimond: No, I am talking about what the commission suggested.

Mr. Georges Farrah: Yes.

Mr. Michel Guimond: There will be a domino effect that will cause the riding of Bellechasse—Etchemins—Montmagny—L'Islet to be divided in two. We will probably hear from Dr. Normand on that topic. Do we agree on that?

Mr. Georges Farrah: Absolutely.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Do you not think that one of the solutions, that would be allowed under the act, would be to adopt an extraordinary measure given the size of the territory involved? You currently have all of the Gaspésie peninsula as well as an isolated community an hour's plane ride away, that is the entire Îles-de-la-Madeleine community.

I know that you have sat in the National Assembly in Quebec and that furthermore, you have been a member for that riding. Under Quebec legislation, the Îles-de-la-Madeleine are a distinct riding even though the area does not strictly meet all the requirements.

I would like to know if our subcommittee could recommend to the Quebec commission to adopt an extraordinary measure for the riding of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine. That would not change the ridings to the west.

Mr. Georges Farrah: You are absolutely correct in saying that in Quebec, because of certain exceptions under the legislation, it is possible to obtain special status in cases where the number of constituents does not meet the requirements. The riding of Îles-de-la-Madeleine, which I was the member for in Quebec, is the smallest in the province; it has 10,000 constituents, whereas the average is 35,000. Under legislation, a special status was given to the Îles-de-la-Madeleine, given their geography and unique features.

Nonetheless, for the population of the RCM of Avignon, which is not part of my current riding, it would probably be more advantageous to be a part of the Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine riding.

We wanted to make a proposal that would comply with the law. We feared that using those grounds would not comply with the legislation and that therefore our proposal would be turned down. That is why we have suggested a change that respects the -25% limit.

If it were possible to obtain special status, we would choose that. However, there is still the problem of community of interest for the RCM of Avignon. If it is possible to achieve a balance between both ridings in terms of constituents... We are talking about -13% as opposed to -23% approximately?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes.

The Chair: How many square kilometres does it have?

Mr. André Cyr: Based on the proposals, the riding of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine has 20,500 square kilometres, whereas Matapédia—Matane has 18,000. They are about the same size.

[English]

The Chair: Okay, whatever.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: To get back to the map, I would conclude by saying that since the population levels are quite different between the two ridings, a difference of between -13 per cent and -23 per cent, I have no problem with extending the riding of Matapédia—Matane northward to include the community of interest. It could extend as far as Rivière-au-Renard, but not include it.

However, the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé would then be divided in two, which could pose a problem.

The Chair: No, it isn't a problem. It is easier to justify -23 per cent for you than for Matapédia—Matane, because there are the islands, among others.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's the opposite.

Mr. Georges Farrah: It is the opposite, Madam Chair. My riding is short 13 per cent.

The Chair: It is easier...

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: He goes to less 13% and Matane goes to--

The Chair: Right, and I'm saying it's easier to justify minus 23% for him because he's got the island.

Mr. Georges Farrah: But I'm not.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But he doesn't have less 23%.

The Chair: I know that. You're not listening to me. Okay, I am saying--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay, we'll listen to all your sentence.

The Chair: If you left Avignon in the Matane, all I'm saying is that between the two it's easier to justify minus 23% for you than it is for them, because they're more contained.

» (1750)

Mr. Georges Farrah: Okay, I know.

The Chair: So do we need to make the Avignon transfer or not?

Mr. Georges Farrah: Well, it's the will of the population.

[Translation]

That is what the people of Avignon want.

The Chair: Is there a letter?

Mr. Georges Farrah: I am not here to create a riding for myself, for my own comfort. I am here to represent the people, the people from the regional county municipality of Avignon. We have two resolutions from the RCM. If I were here to say that I would be more comfortable by not having it, that would be dishonest on my part.

[English]

The Chair: Do we have those resolutions? Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: It used to be Bonaventure—Îles-de-la-Madeleine and Gaspé-Nord and Gaspé-Sud. If we follow that argument, the RCM of the Côte-de-Gaspé would go with Matane, and those of us to the south would be included with the islands here.

The Chair: How many people are affected in the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé?

Mr. Georges Farrah: There are a lot of people there.

Mr. André Cyr: There are 18,500 people.

[English]

The Chair: That would whack them out?

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: It would be the exact opposite. What would it be exactly? We would be going beyond the borders.

Mr. Michel Guimond: We would have to give back some territory through the Matapédia valley.

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: It would be 32 per cent for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, to which would be added -4 per cent for Matapédia—Matane.

Mr. Georges Farrah: That is not the objective.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But I can see your point. She is saying that we'll give them--

The Chair: That's more than Ontario.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We forget, but in that particular riding.... There's a little square in the corner that shows les Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Magdalen Islands, which is two and a half hours or an hour.

Mr. Georges Farrah: No, it's a one-hour flight.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: A one-hour flight.

The Chair: If there's no fog.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, it's a big job to service that area.

The Chair: There is an exception in the federal rules as well to be more than minus 25%.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: That is why I asked the question.

[English]

The Chair: So if--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Minus 13%, minus 23% is acceptable.

The Chair: Yes, I know, but I'm just asking is there--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Acceptable, yes, minus 13%.

The Chair: It's just weirder.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: It is just for the purposes of discussion. I want to conclude so that you can leave, but if we respected the community of interest and put the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé with the Haute-Gaspésie in Matapédia—Matane, then there would be Bonaventure, the RCM of Rocher-Percé, the RCM of Avignon and the RCM of La Matapédia in Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We would just draw a line from east to west.

The Chair: Who is the member for Matapédia—Matane?

Mr. Georges Farrah: It's Jean-Yves Roy. It would not be south-north, but north-south.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Are there more people in the north than in the south?

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's what I said at the very beginning.

The Chair: I know, but you know brilliant suggestions take awhile to get accepted.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Now we have to--

The Chair: Okay, André, what are the numbers then?

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: If you divide the peninsula east-west, Matapédia—Matane would be at -24 per cent and Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine would be at -11 per cent.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Now we're back to square one.

The Chair: Then maybe you shouldn't have taken that chunk there. Maybe you shouldn't have taken--

[Translation]

Mr. Scott Reid: Is Matane now to the north or to the south?

Mr. André Cyr: You want the Matapédia peninsula to be in the same riding as the Îles-de-la-Madeleine?

Mr. Georges Farrah: It was just for analytical purposes.

Mr. André Cyr: Fine.

Mr. Scott Reid: Who has Matapédia—Matane?

The Chair: Is it to the north or to the south?

Mr. Georges Farrah: Which? I am in the centre.

[English]

Right in the middle.

[Translation]

The Chair: Are you talking about the middle of the north or of the south?

Mr. Georges Farrah: I think that if we don't want to make any exceptions...

[English]

The Chair: Yes.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: ... and pass a special act, our proposal is the most logical and most acceptable to the people. That is what suits them best since the statistics and the RCM territories must be taken into account, which has always been the Electoral Boundaries Commission's objective.

[English]

The Chair: Okay, Monsieur Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: If I understand correctly, you are suggesting we combine the RCMs of Matane and the Haute-Gaspésie.

Mr. Georges Farrah: I am suggesting an exchange between the regional country municipalities of Avignon and the Haute-Gaspésie.

» (1755)

Mr. Yvon Godin: What is happening in that region? Is there an exodus of young people or is the population increasing? I do not think the population is increasing in the Gaspé, as is the case in your area. This discrepancy of -23 per cent is close to the allowed limit. There will not be any change...

Mr. Georges Farrah: The two RCMs passed resolutions supporting this change. The BQ member and the Liberal member agree on this proposal, for which there is consensus, of course.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Those are outlying regions. That must be taken into account.

Mr. Georges Farrah: That's right. The reason the gap is so big is that we wanted to keep the riding of Matapédia—Matane. Let me make this one prediction: if the economic situation does not change, when the next overhaul occurs, there will be a gap of -30 per cent and that territory will have to be enlarged even further. Serious thought will be given to special legislation or special status for that region, otherwise there will basically be only urban ridings and very few rural ones. There will be a political imbalance, because there will be far more urban members than rural ones.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Perhaps we should do that now.

Mr. Georges Farrah: Exactly.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Côte-du-Sud.

Mr. Georges Farrah: Côte-de-Gaspé!

[English]

The Chair: Let me ask a question. I want to know what the numbers are. Then we'll ask the question if both of you would support that.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: It has already been done. We looked at the numbers for the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé.

[English]

The Chair: No, we didn't. Okay, go again.

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: The figures are as follows: -32 per cent and -4 per cent.

[English]

The Chair: And minus 4%. And minus 32% is Îles de la Madeleine.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes, right.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: Yes, by transferring the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé into the riding of Matapédia—Matane.

[English]

The Chair: The one with the island is the big one and it's minus 32%.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

The Chair: Which is justifiable because of the service of the island. So my question is, is that the best mix or is what you came forward with the best mix?

Mr. Georges Farrah: Which one? My proposal--

The Chair: Yes, that you like the best.

Mr. Georges Farrah: Well, I proposed that.

The Chair: I know, but--

Mr. Georges Farrah: Because I want to respect the law. But your suggestion is not too bad. You know for me, on my--

The Chair: You're not understanding my question, Mr. Farrah. This is also supportable within the law. What we're trying to figure out is which is your preference? What you came here with or this?

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: My personal preference would be to remove the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé and keep the RCM of Avignon and of Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Bonaventure, Avignon...

Mr. Georges Farrah: The RCMs of Avignon, Bonaventure, Rocher-Percé and Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

[English]

The Chair: This is your preference, and you think Mr. Martin would want this as well?

Mr. Georges Farrah: Well, I'm not sure.

The Chair: Okay, I just--

Mr. Georges Farrah: You asked me the question. I answered the question.

The Chair: I just wondered. You don't know. It's okay.

Mr. Georges Farrah: My proposal was not that.

The Chair: And Mr. Martin is coming.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: She is asking whether you prefer the suggestion to include the Îles-de-la-Madeleine and the other RCMs, or whether you prefer the suggestion that you tabled at the outset.

Mr. Georges Farrah: If you are asking me whether I would prefer to have the RCMs of Avignon, Bonaventure, Rocher-Percé and the Îles-de-la-Madeleine in my riding, I would answer yes. That is not what I came here to defend, but if everyone agrees, it suits me fine.

The Chair: We have to ask the member for Matapédia—Matane.

Mr. Michel Guimond: To be fair, I would like Mr. Farrah to consider that option. I will also consider it so that we have time to consult the member for Matapédia—Matane. In Georges' option, we would be exchanging one RCM for another. But this isn't the same thing at all.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We understand.

Mr. Georges Farrah: I had not seen things that way. I would have immediately agreed, but I think Michel is right: perhaps Jean-Yves should be consulted.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We could ask Mr. Farrah to look at that with Mr. Roy and the two could come back together next week to tell us what they think.

¼ (1800)

The Chair: Mr. Guimond can speak with Mr. Roy.

[English]

And Mr. Borotsik has a question.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Are you telling me that because the Magdalen Islands are an hour away by airplane we can justify a minus 30%?

The Chair: As they did in the north of Ontario with minus 40-something.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But don't forget the minus 40% in Ontario was Mr. Nault's, I believe, and it's huge. We're talking an area that's half the province.

An hour flight to service a population of 10,000 people? There's plenty of us in this room who drive an hour to service 10,000 people.

The Chair: Yes, but when it's foggy you can't go.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, when there's a brilliant sun, I can't go either.

Can you honestly think you can justify a minus 30% because it's an hour flight to service that property?

Mr. Georges Farrah: There was a provincial Liberal that we had from the Magdalen Islands.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: When one's constituency is the Magdalen Islands, I can understand that. But as a federal constituency, there are others that have distance. And I'm not arguing with you. I'd prefer your proposal than this proposal, to be perfectly honest.

The Chair: John points out that in Nova Scotia we justified some rather odd things on the larger population areas and what have you. I'm saying if that was his preference, we needed to know that. We need to ask the other guy and we'll sort it out.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I understood you'd already talked to Monsieur Martin regarding the proposal and everything was fine.

The Chair: But he didn't know that he could try the minus 32% thing.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well--

The Chair: So we'll check. We don't have to decide it right now. We do have it on the record that he wouldn't mind this. If we end up keeping la Côte de la Gaspésie, we'll sort that out.

Mr. Georges Farrah: I have no problem with that. I want this.

The Chair: Yes, we understood that.

[Translation]

Mr. Georges Farrah: Why must his proposal be submitted?

The Chair: We must finish this before June 12.

Mr. Georges Farrah: That's next week?

Mr. Michel Guimond: We must table everything on June 16.

The Chair: Yes, but for the committee as a whole, it is June 21.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Madam Chair, perhaps we can make arrangements, because Mr. Farrah will not be in town next week. He has knee surgery.

The Chair: We'll sort it out. He'll sort it out before he leaves. Members will get their information.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, so that he can come back in front of us.

The Chair: He might not have to.

Colleagues, if I can just draw to your attention a couple of things. We are unbelievably under the gun right now. You have before you a list of everybody who's left. The Ontario people cannot come to us this week.

Can we go in camera? We don't necessarily have to have this on the public record.

[Proceedings continue in camera]