SELE Committee Meeting

Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.

For an advanced search, use Publication Search tool.

If you have any questions or comments regarding the accessibility of this publication, please contact us at accessible@parl.gc.ca.

Previous day publication Next day publication

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 27, 2003

0945

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.)

0950

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. Dennis Mills

0955

Hon. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.)

Mr. Dennis Mills

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

1000

Mr. Dennis Mills

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

1005

1010

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Dennis Mills

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Dennis Mills

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Dennis Mills

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Dennis Mills

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

1015

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

1020

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Dennis Mills

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Maria Minna

1025

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Dennis Mills

1030

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Maria Minna

1035

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Dennis Mills

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Dennis Mills

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Dennis Mills

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Dennis Mills

Ms. Maria Minna

The Chair

Ms. Maria Minna

1040

Mr. Dennis Mills

The Chair

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Ms. Maria Minna

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Maria Minna

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Sophia Leung

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Sophia Leung

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

1045

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Sophia Leung

The Chair

Ms. Sophia Leung

The Chair

Ms. Sophia Leung

The Chair

Ms. Sophia Leung

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 013

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, May 27, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0945)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order. We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustments of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. We have with us this morning Dennis Mills from Toronto--Danforth and Maria Minna from Beaches--East York.

We'll go with you first, Dennis.

Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of Parliament.

The first really critical point is to put on the record the clarification of why I did not attend the commission's meeting in our community. When the chief electoral office presented a proposal for revising the riding boundary, they came up with squaring this line off right here. In other words, they proposed squaring off the extension of Coxwell Avenue right down to the waterfront and back. There was also a very small piece of the riding that was going to go into Bill Graham's riding. So they proposed that this small piece go to Bill's riding, and that this other area be squared off.

Both Maria and I agreed with that proposal, so we never went to the committee hearing. First of all, we had a confidence vote that day in the House on Kyoto; but separate and apart from the Kyoto, I probably wouldn't have gone because we and everybody in the community thought that was the logical restructuring of the riding.

That answers the question of why we didn't go to the commission hearing, because we just thought it was a no-brainer.

¿ (0950)

The Chair: I don't want to interrupt you, but map 15 in the consultation document has the...and map 14 in the final document has the ridings.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Dennis, I'm just trying to find out which are the original maps, in the sense of being prior to....

Mr. Dennis Mills: Okay, these are the current boundaries of my riding, Toronto--Danforth. I've been there since 1988. The Chief Electoral Officer's recommendation was just to extend this line south.

One person who showed up at the commission's hearing was a city councillor representing a portion of.... By the way, he represented none of my riding, but just a portion of this area over here. The other part of this riding was over there. The city councillor came along and said that instead of going north-south, the ridings should go east-west or west-east, thereby splitting Danforth in two. His basic argument was that we're going to create a community around the old East York. I don't want to criticize his presentation too much. I'm only going to make one criticism of it, and then I'm going to go back to why I think it should be the way the chief elections office recommended.

The one piece of logic he tried to sell the commission was that this here was the community of East York. The fact of the matter is that it only represents less than a third of East York, because the real East York is a portion over here. But two-thirds of it is in Don Valley East and, in fact, Don Valley West. So his logic is flawed that this really represented the community of East York.

Now I'd like to discuss why I think it's wrong that we follow his recommendation. The street that essentially marks the biggest part of my community—and I'm not going to speak about Maria's, obviously—is called Danforth Avenue. This is my community right here, and the centrepiece of my riding is Danforth Avenue, a continuation of Bloor Street. It is a street on which several communities exist, even in my own riding. In other words, for the first hundred yards we have a little community called the Danforth by the Valley Business Association.

The next little piece of the riding is the Greek businessmen's association, north and south.

And laterally, in the middle, I have a mosque and a community of the Muslim merchants. I'll tell you why it's important to point out the Muslim merchants and why they're in a community around their mosque. As all of you know who have large Muslim communities in your riding, at 12 o'clock or 12:15 every day, they just close all the stores and go to the mosque. So it's a unique situation.

The next little portion of my riding is the Little Italy village. These stores or small businesses are in clusters.

You don't just have Muslims on the north side and somebody different on the south, or Italians on the north and no one on the south, or Greeks on the north or the south side, but they're communities. What this proposal does is to split those communities right in two. That's just from the small business perspective. So when I'm asked to go to a small business meeting for the Danforth by the VBA, I don't just talk about businesses on the north side, I talk to the cluster. And the same goes for further along Danforth Avenue, one, two, three, four....

The other things that flow north-south are our educational system and our social service system. The way HRDC designed its services or program delivery is north-south, which they've been doing for years. So if you realign it, you've got to restructure the whole thing.

¿ (0955)

So my basic intention is to show you that Toronto--Danforth is a whole community in itself, north and south, including small businesses, schools, and social services. The police service supports this position, and has put it in writing.

I realize that I'm ultimately in your hands and that the community will have to live with whatever you do. But I find it very strange that a person who is elected and represents less than one-quarter of the entire area would have the capacity or influence to restructure the ridings of two MPs—

Hon. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.): Two MPPs.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Two MPPs, as if we're all in agreement. It just seems very strange to me.

I'll leave it at that, and I'd be happy to take any questions.

The Chair: Can we just get from André what the numbers are in the original proposal. But we wouldn't know what it is without the provincial quotient.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): [Inaudible—Editor]...with 108,587 in the original proposal.

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): Beaches--East York in the proposals, with plus 5%, and Toronto--Danforth, which would add the proposed Toronto Centre--Rosedale--

Some hon. members: No, no.

Mr. André Cyr: Just a moment.

The Chair: It's 109,713. It apparently—

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Toronto--Danforth has a population of 109,713, which was not that far off Beaches--East York.

Mr. André Cyr: In the proposal, Beaches--East York was 1%.

The Chair: Okay. So they're roughly on the provincial quotient?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That was going to be my question.

But you have no difficulty going back to the original proposal that squared off that area and brought a little bit of Beaches into Toronto--Danforth.

An hon. member: Absolutely.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I take it that we'll talk about it with the other member of Parliament. In your opinion, is there no objection from Maria on having that portion?

À (1000)

Mr. Dennis Mills: It's not my opinion; she'll probably speak to it. We talk to each other, and we're all in—

Mr. Rick Borotsik: If you go back to the original proposal, the only little piece is going to be that part of Beaches that you take over. As long as everybody is in agreement with that, I see no reason why you can't split north-south as opposed to east-west. That's it.

Mr. Scott Reid: On a point of order, Madam Chair, it seems to me that given the fact that essentially the same presentation is being made by both members, it might be helpful if we allowed Ms. Minna to make a presentation, and then do the questions.

The Chair: Perfect.

Is that okay with you, Ms. Minna?

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes.

The Chair: Great.

Ms. Minna.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I have one other point.

Maria, are you going to be talking about your ethnic makeup going along Danforth Avenue into Beaches?

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes, but I'm making a slightly different presentation, and then I'll tell you where my ethnic makeup is. Although our ridings are very close, my riding is quite different from Dennis's in some ways. We're in that region.

I've submitted a fairly extensive brief to all of you, because there was a lot.... I dealt with the quotients and all of that stuff in my brief. You'll find all of that information on page 16, but I'm going to just read it to you.

Thank you, by the way, for taking the time to have us here today.

If you will turn to the first maps at the back of my submission, you will see that Beaches--East York and Toronto--Danforth run side by side in the area between Victoria Park Avenue on the east and Don Valley on the west. The ridings are separated by Coxwell Avenue, which runs north from Lake Ontario to O'Connor Drive.

The Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario, without any public support whatsoever—which is important to note—has eliminated the north-south ridings and replaced them with the east-west ridings of East York and Beaches--Riverdale. Danforth Avenue serves as the border, but it is not now, nor has it ever been, the border between East York and the city of Toronto. The southern border of East York has always been three to five blocks north of Danforth Avenue.

The restructuring cannot be justified on the basis of any change in population in either riding or in any of the adjacent ridings. The new ridings will cover the exact same population within the same external boundaries.

The restructuring disrupts the north-south orientation of the social services agencies that serve the residents of both ridings and puts essential programs at risk. I have all of that in my submission as well as examples of the different programs.

Let me share with you the following excerpts from four of the many letters I received from my constituents on this issue:

How could the commission have made such a significant decision at the last minute, and without letting the residents affected by it know that this was an option. I had no opportunity to learn, understand and react. It is my opinion that the Commission has disenfranchised me.... Jordan Levitin.

How can the Commission publish one set of facts and invite submissions on those facts and then turn around and receive a submission concerning an entirely different set of facts? We find this process troubling and undemocratic to say the least. Derek Knipe and Catharine Potts.

First, how did this come about? I received a notice previously with minor changes indicated. What was adopted has no relation to the proposal sent through the riding. How can we be advised that a minor alteration is under consideration and then out of nowhere, with no follow up to the initial notification, a totally radical and different riding boundary is adopted? Denise Dutkowski.

This 90° swing cuts our services area down the middle. All of our services to non-seniors serve both communities north and south of the Danforth....The division of the riding will adversely affect the provision of services, and will likely cost money to accomplish very little. Mary McGowan, Human Resources Director, Neighbourhood Link/ Senior Link.

In adopting this proposal, which was dealt with in less than 30 minutes in the last day of the public hearings, the commission undermined the public consultation process that, as you will note on page 6 of my submission, is clearly articulated in the public hearings. I've gone back to all of the transcripts of the last hearings and even previous ones. They are quoted in my submission and follow through comments made by the chairman himself, Commissioner Sancton, and others as to the criteria they normally follow, and which they have followed everywhere else but in this case, it seems.

Virtually everything in the ridings of Beaches--East York and Toronto--Danforth operates on a north-south basis, not on the east-west orientation the commission has imposed. For example, the social services programs are funded on a riding basis. The riding boundaries have in themselves created a community of interest, which has now been shattered.

Let's consider the new riding of East York. This is the argument given by the person who was successful in all this. The population of the southern half of the former Borough of East York is less than 60,000. That's about 50,000 less than the population of the average Toronto riding.

The only way the new riding that is to be called East York can meet the Toronto average is by requiring more than 50,000 residents, who have lived and voted in Toronto all of their lives, to become part of East York. Not one of those Toronto residents was asked what they thought about having the ridings in which they have voted for decades eliminated and replaced with a new riding called East York--and for that matter, the people of East York weren't asked for their opinions either.

The people living in the beach area of my riding have a profound sense of local identity. They even have their own flag, which, by the way, in one part of the riding flies above the Canadian flag; we fought about it and I lost. That is this community. In 2002 the beach section of Queen Street East won a contest sponsored by TVO for the best main street in Ontario. The commission did not give the residents of the Beaches an opportunity to express their opinions on entering into an electoral unit with the people of Riverdale and Chinatown east in the new riding of Beaches--Riverdale.

The commission's original proposal, published in the media and in the Canada Gazette in August of last year along with the map, made reasonable boundary modifications, followed the historical pattern of previous redistributions, respected the traditional north-south orientation of both ridings, and retained the community of interest that has been created within the traditional electoral boundaries.

The commission's proposal was reviewed and discussed informally by the Liberal and NDP members at the federal and provincial levels. They concluded that the commission's proposal was sound and very much in line with previous redistributions. The sole objector was Councillor Michael Tziretas, Beaches—East York Ward 31. Despite admitting that he had conducted absolutely no public consultation, he proposed that the traditional north-south division along Coxwell Avenue be replaced by an east-west border running along Danforth Avenue.

À (1005)

As you will see from page 12 of my submission, the new boundaries give this councillor a political advantage that he is said to be crowing about at city hall. The main thrust of Councillor Tziretas' proposal was that the former Borough of East York was a victim of amalgamation and creating a new riding of East York would restore a sense of community identity and belonging.

Giving the name of the former township to a new riding that overlaps it only in part and includes about 50,000 people, innocent bystanders who were never part of it in the first place, will not recreate East York. East Yorkers will still be without a local council, local services, and everything else that gave them a sense of civic pride.

It is somewhat ironic that the Toronto deputy mayor, Case Oates, one of the strongest proponents of amalgamation, is front and centre in the campaign to ease East Yorkers' loss of civic pride by creating a new riding of East York. After the commission tabled its report, Councillor Tziretas published a full-page ad in the local newspaper inviting the public to the launch of his campaign to win support of the commission's decision to create a new riding of Beaches--East York. Why he launched his campaign after the commission made its decision rather than before is a matter of conjecture. Councillor Tziretas urged members of the public to contact my office and the office of my colleague Dennis Mills in Toronto--Danforth to voice support for the commission's decision and to ask us not to file an objection.

As of May 26, 2003, not a single person from East York or the Beaches had contacted my office to voice support for this proposal. On the other hand, hundreds of constituents from across the riding voiced opposition to the commission's misinformed decisions. You have a pile of letters I received attached to my brief. The bottom line is that the people of my riding do not support the changes the commission is imposing. There is much more I would say to put before you, but simply there isn't time.

I would, however, suggest you review my submission and consider the information on what this and other commissions have had to say about due process and public consultation, the importance of maintaining voter parity, the destruction of social services caused by the commission's proposal, and other relevant issues. It would be entirely appropriate for this Standing Committee on Procedures and House Affairs to recommend that the Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario reconsider its decision to eliminate the ridings of Beaches--East York and Toronto--Danforth and reinstate the reasonable proposal of boundary change publicized in August 2002.

It is also respectfully submitted that consideration be given to amending the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act in order to address the deficiencies demonstrated by this particular case. I would like also to submit petitions to you today. I apologize that I don't have translation, but they were coming in as late as Sunday, and yesterday my office still had some. They are not in any specific order, because people were just handing them in as best they could or coming into my office. I'll table these as well, if I may.

I am open for questions as well.

À (1010)

The Chair: Great. Why don't we bring Mr. Mills back to the table as well and members of Parliament can ask questions of both of them.

I have Mr. Borotsik and Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I have two questions. First of all, dealing with names, should the recommendation be that they go back to the original proposal as outlined in the August report of the commission? Is the suggestion that the names revert back to Toronto--Danforth and Beaches--East York?

Ms. Maria Minna: For me, it is absolutely a must, because immediately after the 1996 election, as you can see, I think--I have it in my brief as well--I petitioned the House to change the name of my riding. It used to be Beaches--Woodbine, which is only reflective of the street; but because of the extension of my riding, which is about 50% East York and 50% old city of Toronto, the Beaches area, it's called Beaches--East York. The name recognizes the two distinct communities within the riding.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you're suggesting it be called Beaches--East York.

Ms. Maria Minna: Absolutely.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And do you as well, Dennis?

Mr. Dennis Mills: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They should change the name of your riding back to Toronto--Danforth.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: For the same reason, that it reflects the Danforth as well as the Toronto section of the area.

Ms. Maria Minna: That's right.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: My second question is to you, Maria, and I agree with you. In the latter part of your presentation you suggested there should be changes to the election boundaries act, amendments that would not allow this process to go forward the way it is, where the original proposal was dramatically changed and not allowing an appeal process, I guess. Can you expand on that and what it is you're looking for?

Ms. Maria Minna: In this case, the injustice is enormous. Not only were they allowed to change part of my riding, but they also changed two whole ridings in the whole area. So I would suggest that if a commission puts forward a proposal that deviates 15% from its original proposal, then there ought to be a further public hearing.

The people have a right to hear; otherwise the whole purpose of public consultation is a farce. You can have public consultation, but my people don't feel they've had public consultation. That's why they're upset.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Why did you suggest 15%? Is it an arbitrary number?

Ms. Maria Minna: I was looking for a number that wasn't too large, because when you get into a large deviation, then I think people have a right to know.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I think 15% is too large.

Ms. Maria Minna: Make it 10%, fine. I'm in your hands to some degree. But I think this group should make some recommendation.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But here you're changing 100%.

Ms. Maria Minna: More than 100%. You're just eliminating the two ridings and flipping them. So you really--

Mr. Dennis Mills: That's 100% change with no public consultation.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It was really 50%, because you still have 50% of your old riding and 50% of the new riding.

Mr. Dennis Mills: No, because the whole thing is changed.

Ms. Maria Minna: No, the configuration changes completely.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: We won't get into that semantic argument. I hear you, but I disagree.

Ms. Maria Minna: But I think it's important when I mentioned the destruction of social programing.

I'll just give you an example, the early learning program, which the Government of Canada funded at $2.2 billion with the provinces. What happened in this case is that it took two years for consultation to take place by the Province of Ontario on which organization to fund. The way they did it is they chose an organization that would serve Beaches--East York and an organization that would serve Toronto--Danforth. As it turns out, the two winning organizations are both north of Danforth, one in Dennis' and one in mine. When you go this way, there's no organization serving the south. They're going to have to redo the whole thing, which is going to cost a ton of money.

The other example is the Human Resources Development one that Dennis mentioned. There is an organization called WoodGreen Community Centre that's been there...I was a volunteer in immigrant services for 20 years before I was elected, and that organization was around then, serving employment programs, all kinds of important programs in Dennis' lower south. In my area, it's called Neighbourhood Link. It's funded by HRDC. Both their offices are situated on the south side of Danforth, but they serve the whole community.

Now, when you truncate, what happens--because the funding is on a riding basis--a lot of funding historically has evolved on a riding basis, both federal and provincial funding. In my area...do you see where it says Taylor Creek? Well, just south of here there's a place called Crescent Town --talking about my immigrant communities. Crescent Town has about 10,000 people living in the one area alone. Just south of there on Danforth is another block of buildings with another 4,000 people or so. Then in the middle there, where it says Beaches, there are about four or five other buildings, which...there's Main Square. Again, there's a ton of buildings that house mostly poor people, mostly assisted. We have special programs there for youth at risk. This is where Crescent Town is. We have a youth jobs program. There are 10,000 people. Main Street is about here, and there are other buildings there, again with services. Neighbourhood Link is there, for seniors and older people.

Then there's the Ethiopian community, right here. By the way, the people living in this area here are Ismaili. There's an Ahmadiyya mosque right here. This is one of the largest Bangladeshi communities. There are Tamil communities around here. This whole area is very working class, a very poor area.

One of the things Michael Tziretas says is that he wants to bring things back to the way it was historically--to east-west. Well, they were never east-west. People living here, going back 80 years, went down here to Kingston Road to buy their block of ice, went down to Gerrard to get to work...there was coal company they worked with. They went to swim on Williamson Road.

If you read the letters from Gerri Pennie, she will tell you her father bought the house in 1921 about here. This has always been north-south, because the biggest streets go north-south, and the beach is right along here. That whole community is one very tight community. The area I showed you tends to be a higher poverty level as well, because of recent arrivals as well as historically. Even the homeowners tend to be poorer. There are a lot of single families.

The services have evolved around that whole area north-south, and the major organizations are clustered, are cooperatiing...in fact, there are volunteers. One of the letters you have is from the fellow who was the president of the Beaches Lions Club. Beaches Lions Club is way down here; they serve the beach. He is now chairing the early learning program, up here. They raise money; they help this way.

By the way, the other thing is that this part of East York was primarily built after the first and second world wars for veterans; they came. There are many legions in here. I've spoken to the legions personally; some of them actually signed the petition. They were never consulted, and they're angry as well.

You were asking about the makeup of people in the riding.

À (1015)

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just to keep it very simple and very clear, in regard to the proposal that was published by the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario in August 2002, do I understand from both of you that you are accepting the dividing line as Coxwell Avenue, right down south--

À (1020)

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In other words, you are both accepting the proposal as it was in August 2002, keeping the names as they were and changing that little border, right?

Ms. Maria Minna: Not only are we both accepting it, our Ontario counterpart...the boundaries provincially are the same.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That was my next question.

Ms. Maria Minna: They also support it. In fact, I have Michael Prue's letter with me. He's the provincial MPP. He's NDP, but we work very well together. We consulted beforehand. None of us decided to object, because we decided it was fine. I didn't appear for those same reasons.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So whether we recommend a change and we do it successfully or not, the lesson is that whenever there is a proposal or a consultation of this sort, we have to make sure to appear and defend our own territory. I'm not blaming you, because most of the people did the same thing.

Now, I normally like to understand the other side of the coin. I find it very, very difficult to accept and very difficult to understand--and I'm hoping you can help me on this--why the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission would then go backwards--that's what they did in this case--to satisfy the request of the city councillor without having your input, both of you, and both the MPPs'. What could have pushed them or convinced them to accept a recommendation of this sort?

This is a drastic, major, total change, and the strangest thing is that it is strictly in these two ridings, in the sense that there's no domino effect. They've strictly taken that geographical territory and switched it around. Why?

Mr. Dennis Mills: Well, you're asking a question where I'm daring to offer conjecture. The first part of my conjecture--and I'm only speaking for myself now; Maria can speak for herself, obviously--is that I think when we did not show up at the commission hearing, they were offended. Now, I was never slated to show up. There was some misunderstanding, because we had a big vote that day, but they had Maria on the list.

That's point one.

When we had a public meeting after this thing came through, Tziretas, the fellow who proposed this, said, well, you guys never even took the time to show up to the commission. Obviously, as I said earlier, we thought this was a done deal.

But there's a second reason. He did a job on these commissioners, selling this as a community--East York. He hoodwinked them, because, as you know, East York really only starts along here and goes north. He didn't tell them about the two-thirds of East York that's outside. And there may have been someone on that commission who is anti-amalgamation. He's an articulate young man, just newly elected. He's full of passion and vigour. I'm going to give him all that.

But I think with the combination of all those things, they said, oh, let's just do it.

Maria should weigh in on this, too.

The Chair: Just before that, on page 21 of their final report there is a paragraph about some of their decisions.

Before you answer, Ms. Minna, Mr. Reid had a question.

Mr. Scott Reid: I notice from your presentation, Ms. Minna, you have reviewed the minutes of the hearings. On page 21 of the report, the boundaries commissioners say--I'm going to quote here, “In response to a persuasive presentation by Toronto City Councillor Michael Tziretas, the Commission has redrawn the boundaries between these two electoral districts to reflect an east–west division, along Danforth Avenue.” They don't, however, provide the reasons he gave, and they also don't indicate whether there were other people who gave supporting presentations.

Having gone through the minutes, you'd know better than we would, obviously.

Ms. Maria Minna: I can answer both of those.

There are a number of things. First, the process is objection based, mind you. If you look at my submission on page 28, you'll see that. I've quoted extensively from the public hearings and other places. The system is mostly objection based; people tend to appear if they have an objection to what's being proposed.

I had put my name forward to appear primarily to say that what they had was fine and I liked it—not to object. Then I wasn't able to, because on that date there was a vote on Kyoto, and it was a confidence vote. So my office called to say I couldn't appear, but I didn't think it was a major thing. I had no idea this kind of proposal was coming forward, because it wasn't published. Nobody was given a heads-up.

There are two other things. Mr. Tziretas appeared on his own. He said he had two people who were supporting, both of them former mayors—neither of whom lives in East York right now, by the way—but there was nobody else who appeared with respect to these two ridings, at least with respect to my riding, and not even Dennis's, actually. The only other people who appeared were Mr. Clutterbuck and Mr. Prendergast. Clutterbuck is a former candidate for the Conservative Party, Prendergast a former candidate for the Alliance.

They appeared, and their presentation was the exact opposite of what Mr. Tziretas said. In fact, they said they liked the Coxwell line; it was a historical division; it had been north-south for many years in that area. All the ridings in Toronto mostly go north-south. They complimented the commission on it and then went on to say that what they wanted to see was that the Beaches' natural affinity was going further east—in the opposite direction—rather than where they went.

So actually, the only other information the commission had in front of them was the exact opposite of Tziretas', and there were no other submissions besides that.

À (1025)

Mr. Scott Reid: There were only three presenters in all who made presentations that touched on this area; is that correct?

Ms. Maria Minna: Exactly. As I said, two of them touched on my area only, asking for the commission to go further east into the Hunt Club area—into Scarborough—the opposite of what they've done. Mr. Tziretas is basically restructuring the whole area. Frankly, Mr. Tziretas' arguments that this would bring back a sense of identity to East Yorkers, that this would make them whole again, because they were....

You know, I worked very hard against the amalgamation, and I even volunteered furniture and office space and so on during that period. The fact of the matter is that this does not restore to the people of East York any sense of civic services or of the city they have lost. It disrupts all the social programs—it's going to cost a lot of money to restructure all the social programs in that area—and all the small business communities, because everything is north-south and is funded that way.

More important than that, despite the fact that he went public.... As I said, he did it in my riding because that's where he lives; he said that's where legally he could mail out cards. He's mailed out little cards to people in his ward—not all of them, but some of them—that basically say, call Maria Minna and Dennis Mills and tell them not to object, and come to my meeting.

Well, if you look at my brief, the public meeting turned out to be quite a mess for him. The public reaction is on page 26. It was actually a very rough evening. He was booed the whole time. The local paper's report the next day does not include one person supporting his proposal, because there weren't any at the meeting. To this day, I honestly have not received a phone call or a letter in support of his position, but rather the opposite. The very first letter, in fact, that I received was on April 15 and was from somebody writing to Michael Tziretas asking him, “What the heck are you doing this for?” and copying me on it from East York. These are East Yorkers.

The community is being divided and split. Before that, while there was East York.... You must keep in mind that this part shown here and going up to Dennis's riding is part of the city of Toronto. The boundaries were never just East York. The East York part is what I'm pointing to here, and then up here, which is not part of this riding anyway, and then over here.

So the new boundary has taken the East York old part and then the Toronto part and made it into one East York. That community used to work very well together, but now they're fighting.

Mr. Dennis Mills: If the principle for the commission was to make a riding called East York, then he should have told them, we need a little bit of the north section of here, a little bit of the north section of my riding, a little bit of the south section of John Godfrey's riding, and a little bit of David Collenette's riding. If the commission really wanted to make a riding called East York, then to be clear about it, they should have divided and changed all of those two ridings as well.

À (1030)

Ms. Maria Minna: But the thing to remember is that while the city of Toronto went north of Danforth and there was a city-East York boundary, the people ignored the boundary because of the services in the community and went north-south in either way. They used services on the south side.

For instance, at the corner of Main and Danforth, just three weeks ago we opened a new community centre—the Government of Canada put in $4.9 million, and the City of Toronto put in $4.9 million—to serve a community that had no services. That's to serve this whole community; it's not to serve just the north end. That whole area has functioned on a north-south basis for 98 years or so. As I said, there's a letter in my submission from a Gerri Pennie, who has lived there that long and whose father bought a house in 1921; she actually goes into detail of her life at the time.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense.

To answer your question as to why the commission did this, apart from the fact that we didn't show up.... I assumed it was an objection-based thing. I did put my name in, but I couldn't be there that day. There was a vote, and I thought my responsibility in the House came first. As I was only going to be able to say that I liked what they had, there wasn't a need for me to actually appear.

Other than that, I cannot say why they went that way, because Michael Tziretas' arguments are really not—

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Just to be clear, it isn't currently an objection-based system: that is how it's structured. This committee has discussed at various points as we've done some of these hearings, and a little bit more yesterday, whether we may want to come back in September to do a little thinking around our suggestions for changing the act, keeping in mind that there was a proposal that died in the Senate in 1994 and 1995 that would have seen a second round of public consultations.

Mister Godin, pour cinq minutes.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Mills remarked that the proposal was now in our hands. As Michel has said at previous meetings, the final decision does not rest with us, but with the Commission. All we can do is make recommendations.

If we look at the proposal for the Beaches--Riverdale district, can we identify a community of interests for the future? You claim that carrying out the changes will be a costly proposition because everything flows from north to south, and south to north. The Commission had to be convinced in order to propose this change. Admittedly, the municipal councillor had a hand in convincing the Commission members, three of whom were representing the federal government, but if one person managed to make some sound arguments, merely requesting a change wouldn't be enough. Something had to have happened. Therefore, could there be something in the way of a community of interests for the municipality over the long term?

Does the Mayor of Toronto support the Commission's decision?

[English]

Ms. Maria Minna: No. The mayor of Toronto, I'm sorry, doesn't even vote in....

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I don't know. Does Toronto have two mayors?

Ms. Maria Minna: He's never very interested in such matters.

[English]

If you look, I talk about the Beaches area on page 2 of my submission.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I'm talking about the Beaches district.

[English]

Ms. Maria Minna: I speak of the Beaches area specifically to explain the differences between the two areas. They really are very different communities. Michael Tziretas told the commission....

This is the thing: a lot of the things he told were not true, and this is why I think it's important to read my whole submission. I go through the pieces, and you will see what I mean when I say some of these things.

He says, well, I presume, as a bystander—somebody who watches it from nearby—that they would have lots in common; they have the waterfront and all that. Well, he doesn't know the area at all. He's not involved with it at all.

My south end is pure Beaches. It's lovely. People come for the jazz festival; they walk on the boardwalk; they enjoy themselves. Dennis has a lot of industrial land currently being developed and environmental issues being addressed. They're totally different communities. He has a Chinatown, where we have basically white Anglo-Saxon in the south end, with lots of very expensive homes around the waterfront. It's a very nice area.

I don't mean the other area is not nice; what I'm saying is—

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Ms. Maria Minna: No, no. All I'm saying is—

À (1035)

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Do the people appointed to the Commission come from the Toronto area? Are Commission members familiar with the city?

[English]

Mr. Dennis Mills: No, not all of them.

Ms. Maria Minna: I go into that a lot in my brief, what Michael Tziretas' submission was, where he's wrong. For instance, on the wrong riding of East York, on page 23, he provides some long information about how the Township of East York goes back to so many years. Well, he's talking about the wrong riding. He's not talking about East York, but York East, when it used to go, 35 years ago, over to Yonge Street, up to Stouffville. I'm sorry, it's not York East. That has nothing to do with what we have now.

As a matter of fact, the other thing is, when the Borough of East York was a borough, before amalgamation, there were always four or five federal ridings that represented East York. There was never one, historically.

And again, he gives the wrong information, so if you look at my brief, I say, wrong riding. I put down a lot of information in my brief because I felt that it was incumbent on me to give you as much background as possible.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Is he running for council again this November?

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes, of course.

Mr. Dennis Mills: I want you to know that I supported this young man the first time he ran.

Ms. Maria Minna: So did I.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And you will again?

Mr. Dennis Mills: No, because I think it was very unethical for a person not to consult with Maria or me when it affects 200,000 people, when he only represents a quarter of those 200,000 people.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Dennis, I surely know how you feel, because the commission has done it to me too.

Mr. Dennis Mills: They did it to you too?

Ms. Maria Minna: Madam Chair, could I add one thing?

The Chair: I'd like to be clear also that there were two other political parties represented at the hearings, aside from you guys, who didn't support this as well.

Ms. Maria Minna: Well, there were two other political parties that were saying what we had was great.

The Chair: Okay.

À (1040)

Mr. Dennis Mills: No, hold it. Let me be very clear about this. The NDP support our position in our community, the elected.... The PC councillor on the north side of my riding met with me three days ago. The deputy mayor, Case Oates, supports our position. The municipal councillor on the south side of my riding, the former city councillor, Mr. Jack Layton, is neutral, so you know what that means. He's not against our position.

So anyone with a brain understands that what has gone on here is truly extraordinary.

The Chair: Okay, I thank you.

Are there any other questions? Did you have one final thing to say? We are over time.

Ms. Maria Minna: I'll be very quick with just one, please, because Mr. Proulx was asking about motive, about why Councillor Tziretas would ask for this.

In my brief, I talked about political self-interest. When the commissioners were briefed by the electoral commission, a number of professors briefed them. They talked about watching out for people putting forward communities of interest, but what they were really looking out for was their own political interest. And I think the advice was meant to warn them of MPs, but in this case Mr. Tziretas is a councillor up here, right?

Now the City of Toronto has divided the boundaries of wards along federal boundaries. Half of my riding is one city ward; the other half is the other city ward. So the Province of Ontario is talking about possibly eliminating the number of seats at the city hall and making them bigger, matching the federal ridings. Well, he doesn't want to run down here, because he doesn't have a hope of winning. I'm sorry to be blunt about it. He says so himself in the brief. If you read it carefully, it's in my brief.

This way, he thinks he has a better shot. And if he goes provincially or federally this adds in the picture.

And I think, quite frankly, it's quite easy to see why you would put forward that proposal. I'm sorry, but I have to be....

Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam, she's saying that's the reason why he did it.

The Chair: Oh, but that's in a different city...I'm sure Ms. Minna and Mr. Mills are well ensconced in the area.

Ms. Maria Minna: For his own purposes, the city councillor feels more comfortable going this way, for himself, if he wants to expand in this way. He does not want to run down here, in my south end.

Mr. Yvon Godin: And then my question?

The Chair: Will you lose if they...?

Mr. Yvon Godin: In the way that he expanded it now, is it that you're disadvantaged?

Ms. Maria Minna: I don't think so. I think Dennis and I will just have to decide what we do. But for the sake of the people, I really think that for justice, for the fact that there was no consultation, for the fact that the social programs having to restructure would cost a tremendous amount of money and disruption to people....

The Chair: Thank you. I really did say that we'd finish on this soon, because we have to get to Ms. Leung, and we're already over the time.

Thank you very much, Mr. Mills and Ms. Minna, and thank you, colleagues.

Now we have Ms. Leung, from Vancouver Kingsway.

You have a brief in front of you, colleagues.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Chair, I think Sophia's a nice name. Why would we want to change it?

Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. Thank you all for listening to my concern.

It's really very simple. It's regarding the name. It used to be Vancouver Kingsway. Now they say it should be just Kingsway, alone. Well, I feel that Kingsway does not reflect the true nature of the riding, because the riding is completely located within the city boundary of Vancouver. So the name should reflect that. Naming it Kingsway alone will not be clear at all.

So I'd like to request to name it Vancouver Kingsway. It's very simple. So I'm not talking about boundaries.

The Chair: Does anyone have any questions?

Monsieur Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I just want the Member to know that I sympathize with her. If a person is from Vancouver, then that person is familiar with Vancouver Kingsway. However, if a person hails from another part of Canada, he may know where Vancouver is located, nothing more. I recall that the same thing happened when a decision was made to change the name of the electoral district of Acadie--Bathurst to Chaleur--Péninsule. To some, that could just as easily have been the Gaspé Peninsula, or the Niagara Falls peninsula. I have to wonder what Commission members are thinking when they decide to change the names of electoral districts. I can't tell if they're merely trying to justify their salaries or if there is some other motivating factor -- perhaps I'm being mean-spirited -- , but to my mind, the name Vancouver Kingsway is representative of this part of the country.

[English]

Ms. Sophia Leung: Thank you. Yes, I agree.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I would like to go to the point that Sophia didn't make. Vancouver, particularly, is identified with Vancouver East, Vancouver North, Vancouver Centre. Having a Vancouver Kingsway fits the norm as to what has been happening in that area.

So I agree with Sophia, because Vancouver Kingsway fits into all of the other ridings, Vancouver South and so on. So Vancouver's a part of it.

Ms. Sophia Leung: Yes. Thank you.

The Chair: Did anyone else want to publicly state their agreement?

I'm teasing you. What about Queensway? I'm just curious.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, in their initial pollings for Ontario, the boundaries commission actually within the Ottawa area arranged that every constituency start with the name “Ottawa”, so Ottawa--Kanata, Ottawa West--Nepean, or Ottawa Rideau. I suspect they're using this as a model, and as suggested, it's a model that is widely admired, the current one.

The Chair: Except when it comes down to the riding of Kingsway.

À (1045)

Mr. Scott Reid: No, I mean the prior model.

The Chair: Okay. All right. Does anyone actually have a question?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I want to make sure that Sophia understands that I agree with her.

Ms. Sophia Leung: Thank you.

The Chair: Did you have any doubt about that, Sophia?

All right, well, I'm glad we made Sophia wait for an hour to do that.

Thank you very much for your submission. Did anyone ask for it to be just called Kingsway, as far as you're aware?

Ms. Sophia Leung: No.

The Chair: At the hearings, did anyone ask for it to be called Kingsway?

Ms. Sophia Leung: They didn't give any reason, but just said they wanted Kingsway. As a matter of fact, I think some of my colleagues said they dropped Vancouver Quadra. I think they came to it too. So it would be just Quadra and Vancouver East, or just East, or whatever. So it doesn't make sense.

I don't know why they didn't give us a reason.

The Chair: All right. Thank you very much.

If anyone wants to see the Alberta report that finally went, because we talked about it and made some changes to it, we'll have it ready for you tomorrow.

Ms. Sophia Leung: I want to thank all of you for your agreement on that.

The Chair: Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.