FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 29, 2000

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.)): I now call this session to order.

We're pleased to have with us, from the Canadian Red Cross, Professor de Mestral from McGill University, Dr. Duplessis, and Mr. Wharram. Thank you very much for coming and joining us.

I understand you're going to tell us a little bit about what the Red Cross is up to these days, and then maybe tell us something about what you're doing in Kosovo. Since we're presently having hearings on Kosovo, that might be helpful.

[Translation]

Mr. Armand de Mestral (President, Canadian Society of the Red Cross): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Armand de Mestral and I am the volunteer President of the Canadian Red Cross. I head up a board that is comprised entirely of volunteers. With me today from the Canadian Red Cross Society are Dr. Pierre Duplessis, who has primary responsibility for our Canadian operations, and the Deputy Secretary General of the Canadian Red Cross Society, Mr. Paul Wharram, Governance and External Relations.

Mr. Chairman, we would like to express our deep appreciation for the time which you have afforded us today to discuss with you some of the highlights of the recent 27th International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent. At the same time, we would like to explore with you the unique relationship that exists between the Government of Canada and the Canadian Red Cross Society and speak to the potential that a strong partnership can bring to advancing Canada's foreign policy and human security agendas.

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The 27th International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent took place in Geneva from October 31 to November 6, 1999. It brought together representatives from all three components of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, namely: the International Committee of the Red Cross or ICRC, the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, and the over 175 National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies like the Canadian Red Cross.

The Conference also included representatives from governments of countries which have signed the Geneva Conventions. This makes the Conference a forum unlike any other at the international level, in that governments participate equally with the components of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, and discuss and adopt policies relating to humanitarian action and international humanitarian law. The International Conference is the supreme deliberative body for the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. It establishes direction and sets priorities and standards for global humanitarian action to be shared jointly by the Red Cross and governments.

The Canadian Red Cross Society and the Canadian government delegations to the 1999 conference sat side by side, as did some 150 other governments and their respective national Red Cross or Red Crescent society. With over 300 delegations and a total participation of some 2,000 individuals, the International Conference is one of the most important humanitarian forums in the world, one which unifies and links the entire spectrum of humanitarians world-wide, from government policy makers to the 105 million volunteers of our movement who render humanitarian services in every corner of the planet.

One of the main purposes of this Conference was to discuss international humanitarian law; how to strengthen it, and how to increase the extent to which it is respected within contemporary conflicts. Yet, the work of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement does not stop at the edge of a conflict zone. As you may know, we provide disaster services and health care in communities “across the street and around the world”. We seek to bring assistance and dignity to those who are the most vulnerable in society. Our deliberations in Geneva last November encompassed our mandated roles, both in times of war or conflict and in times of peace, which together form our commitment to humanity.

The results of the 27th International Red Cross and Red Crescent Conference were as follows:

1. the adoption of a solemn declaration, which is a summary of our reflections and intentions, and is used in media and public outreach;

2. The adoption of a plan of action: 2000-2003. The plan of action represents the joint commitments of states and the Movement. It represents a summary of specific actions which need to be taken to improve global human security; and

3. The individual declaration of pledges by all governments and national RC/RC societies. The pledges reinforce the plan of action and bring a clarity of focus to our efforts. The pledges will hold us accountable in the future.

Information on all of these items can be found in the information kits which have been distributed to you. This afternoon, we would like to speak to these latter two conference outputs and then leave you with a specific recommendation which, in our view, will help to strengthen the humanitarian contribution which Canada makes internationally.

We need to work together to mobilize the power of humanity. The theme of the 27th International Conference was “Mobilizing the Power of Humanity” and this has now become part of the new mission statement of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies.

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What do we mean by “the power of humanity”? The Red Cross Movement is open to all individuals who find within the Movement a “space” in which to come together to exercise their responsibility to assist others and find solutions to community problems. The mobilization of beneficiaries, volunteers and donors is the manifestation of that responsibility - working effectively together through program cooperation, long-term partnerships and advocacy.

We know there is violence and hatred in the world. We also know that there is compassion. In “mobilizing the power of humanity”, we seek to provide a focal point for this compassion, to encourage the best of what humanity has to offer.

In Canada and around the world, we work in partnership with governments at all levels, that is locally, provincially and nationally, in disaster response and preparedness, working together in the wake of devastating disasters like the ice storm in Eastern Canada or the floods in Manitoba and Quebec, and more recently, in cooperation with Immigration Canada and the Department of National Defence responding to the needs of Kosovar refugees. The Canadian Red Cross was able to mobilize some 4,000 volunteers who gave over 180,000 hours of service during Operation Parasol last summer.

Internationally, the Canadian Red Cross manages or channels $20 million annually on average in humanitarian assistance funding from CIDA. We disseminate information on humanitarian law and provide training in Central America. We provide developmental assistance in the form primary health care and immunization programs. Here at home, we educate young people and sensitize them to the needs of the developing world, all thanks to this government's financial support.

We take great pride in our overseas personnel program, also funded in part by CIDA whereby each year between 80 and 100 Canadians serve as Red Cross delegates working in a variety of capacities around the world: as nurses and war surgeons, logisticians, administrators and relief workers. Our Canadian delegates are highly regarded around the world and are much in demand by the ICRC and the International Federation, not only for their capacity to work in both French and English, and in many cases also in Spanish, but also for their humanitarian values and commitment to serving others, characteristics which are proudly Canadian.

These are all examples of the power of humanity which can be mobilized when we, the Canadian Red Cross, work together with the Government of Canada.

The Plan of Action adopted by the 27th International Conference acknowledges the great importance of this cooperation between states and the Movement.

While we each have specific mandates and areas of influence, so much more can be done when we work together. To this end, and for the first time in the history of the International Conference, both states and national societies were asked to make pledges to the Conference, detailing how they will contribute to the Plan of Action within their jurisdictions. The Canadian government and the Canadian Red Cross pledges can be found in your kits. As you will see, several of the pledges were made jointly which further underscores the collaborative nature of our work.

The pledges are concrete means of taking action together. In fact, there is complementarity between our pledges and the priorities recently highlighted in the Throne Speech: building safe communities, preventing violence, mobilizing the energies of volunteers, and advancing an agenda of human security.

On that note, I would like to turn the floor over to my colleague Paul Wharram.

[English]

Mr. Paul Wharram (Deputy Secretary General, Governance External Relations, Canadian Society of the Red Cross): Having made pledges at the international conference, both the Canadian Red Cross Society and the Government of Canada now need to make sure that the pledges are implemented, monitored, and evaluated. This is a minimum requirement.

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Before the world, Canada has made commitments to action, and in two years' time we'll be asked to report on our progress. The Canadian Red Cross Society and the Government of Canada made joint pledges in the following areas: to improve Canada's emergency response capacity, capitalizing on our strengths and competencies; to remain committed to mine-action activities, comprising both mine clearance and action assistance to land-mine victims; and in cooperation with over 25 other national societies and over 30 governments, to promote the rights and welfare of all children affected by armed conflict.

Canada's leadership on this latter issue was much appreciated at the international conference. Together with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the Canadian Red Cross Society organized a workshop entitled “Children Affected by Armed Conflict: Turning Goodwill into Action”. The workshop brought together government and Red Cross and Red Crescent representatives from around the world to discuss the scope of the problem and the ways in which the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement could provide assistance in everything from demobilization of child soldiers to psychological assistance to broader community-based assistance.

On the domestic front, the Canadian Red Cross pledged to strengthen its abuse prevention program and to develop new means of promoting our humanitarian principles in order to live together without violence.

Finally, we pledged to commit additional resources to strengthen our human resource development programs with special emphasis on volunteers. These pledges represent a significant effort on our part to bring alive in Canada the plan of action that stems from the international conference.

Are we up to the task? We firmly believe so. Without a doubt, it has been a difficult and challenging time for the Canadian Red Cross over the last few years, yet our capacity to develop and deliver innovative programs has never been stronger. Our volunteers and staff are committed to the humanitarian principles that guide our organization, and we believe our capacity for programming is such that we can maintain our traditional services, while adding those that formed our pledges to the international conference.

Of particular importance are the efforts to strengthen our disaster response capacity. This flagship program has proven time and again to provide life-saving assistance to a diversity of both Canadians and people overseas. The fact that we now look to identify means of improving Canada's response, in cooperation with the Canadian International Development Agency, is exciting, and we believe it bodes well for our collective future and our collective security.

Dr. Duplessis.

[Translation]

Dr. Pierre Duplessis (Secretary General and CEO, Canadian Society of the Red Cross): Thank you very much, Paul.

Mr. Chairman, our final point takes the form of both a recommendation and a plea. We believe that Canada can strengthen its role as a nation which protects and assists vulnerable people by reinforcing its partnership and increasing its support of the Canadian Red Cross Society.

Canada is a world leader, committed to humanitarian protection and assistance. There are many examples of this leadership, notably the good works of the Canadian International Development Agency, our long tradition of peacekeeping, the international leadership in the campaign to ban landmines and similar leadership in the effort to create an International Criminal Court.

Canadians can take pride in this record, and I've mentioned only a handful of our accomplishments. These are excellent initiatives which we applaud and in fact, these, the very tenants of Canadian foreign policy, parallel the priorities of the Canadian and International Red Cross.

Yet, in one half of the world, people continue to struggle with basic issues of survival - food, drinking water and shelter. This compels us to do more, working together in a coordinated fashion and in partnership.

However, the Canadian Red Cross must also cope with everyday realities. For over five years now, the Canadian Red Cross Society has struggled for its survival and dealt with such upheavals as the Krever Inquiry, the transfer of our national blood program, the often harsh media coverage and now, since July of 1998, court bankruptcy protection. We are undergoing a major restructuring, have ended certain operations and have released staff.

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Yet, we have renewed our commitment to humanity. This has not, however, been without cost. For example, for the first time in our 104-year history, we have been unable to respect our financial obligations to the Federation of National Societies and our statutory contributions to the ICRC. Sadly, we are the only donor country in the world unable to honour these commitments. Even sadder still is the knowledge that the most disadvantaged people in the world will not be receiving the services which these funds guarantee.

And yet, the Canadian public made substantial donations in support of relief operations in the wake of Hurricane Mitch, the Balkans crisis and the Turkish earthquakes. You will agree that there is a certain irony to this, given the Red Cross's very own struggle for survival in Canada.

I believe there is an explanation for this: the public at large always holds the Canadian Red Cross in the highest regard. We are speaking to you today, mindful of the fact that you represent constituencies and people across Canada. Regardless of the difficult times we have endured, well over 80,000 volunteers continue to work with us across the country delivering meals-on- wheels, visiting the shut-in, driving the elderly to clinics, teaching first aid and water safety and training over 70,000 youths every year in abuse prevention. Our volunteers are your constituents, some of whom had never volunteered before coming forward to help with the Kosovar refugees last summer. Our volunteers, our staff, and the public remain committed to the Canadian Red Cross and to our humanitarian services.

Because of our long-standing relationship, our auxiliary role to the medical armed forces of Canada and our partnership in disaster response and humanitarian assistance, we feel that we are in this together.

What we ask of you today very concretely is your support, whether it be for programs to assist in the reintegration of child soldiers into civil society in Sierra Leone or some other endeavour, to help us meet our international statutory obligations as a number of governments are doing, if even on a temporary basis, or that you use your good offices to promote the importance of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement.

We stand ready to serve humanitarian needs within Canada and abroad. It is with great pride that we participated very actively in the 27th International Conference and that we made pledges, and it is with equal pride that we will present a highly positive report in the year 2002.

Our volunteers and staff and the hundreds of thousands of beneficiaries of Red Cross humanitarian services are counting on you to help facilitate our actions. Should we not serve as the link between our communities and their government? When we mobilize the power, the intentions and the goodwill of humanity, as our President was saying, we are discover the real power of humanity. To paraphrase the theme of the 27th Conference, the power of humanity is one of the hallmarks of the Canadian social fabric.

In summary, Mr. Chairman, we have tried to give you this afternoon an overview of the 27th International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent, as well as of the commitment which the Canadian Red Cross Society brings to this world forum.

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We hope that we can count on the Government of Canada and on one each one of you to mobilize the power of humanity, to uphold the commitments made, some of which are shared pledges, and to strengthen Canada's image and presence as a nation which protects and helps people.

Mr. Chairman, we thank you for your interest in our work and would be pleased to answer any questions which you may have for us this afternoon.

The Chair: Thank you.

Ms. Picard.

Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Thank you.

[Editor's Note: Technical Difficulties]... hear what's being done. Even if we already know the facts, it's nice to listen to someone spell them out more clearly.

You currently find yourself in a somewhat difficult situation. This is unfair and unconscionable.

I don't really have any questions for you, since I believe I will find all the answers I need in the kit. I just want you to know that you have my full support.

I think I'll throw the ball back to the government party because its representatives are much closer to the Minister than I am. However, you all have my support and as an opposition member, I will do everything in my power to follow through on the recommendations you've made to us this afternoon.

The Chair: Ms. Marleau.

Ms. Diane Marleau (Sudbury, Lib.): I have to thank you, first of all, because I had the good fortune of working with your organization during my tenure as Minister of International Cooperation. I deeply appreciate your collaborative spirit and how you respond to humanitarian crises. If all Canadians could see what I saw, they would be extremely proud to lend you their support. Not that they aren't proud of your work now, but they would be prouder still.

You stated that for the first time in 104 years, you have been unable to meet your annual obligations. What would the Red Cross need in order to respect its financial obligations?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Do you mean at...

Ms. Diane Marleau: At the international level.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: In monetary terms, our financial obligations total $1 million annually. That's the amount we contribute to Geneva so that in turn, it can organize relief efforts around the world. Every year, good or bad, we contribute a further $350,000 to the Federation, to the sector responsible for disaster relief, and to the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC, which organizes relief efforts in war-torn countries. Therefore, traditionally, the Canadian Red Cross has contributed $1.3 million annually.

This year, we are restructuring our operations. We have made an initial payment of $6 million and are arranging for a second instalment of $9 million. We have advised Geneva that we cannot make the remaining payment. That's the reality of the situation.

Ms. Diane Marleau: Do you think that you'll be able to meet your financial obligations in the years ahead? You asked us if the Government of Canada could be of some assistance. In what way could it help out?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: I expect the situation will have stabilized within a few years. We're certainly in for two or three difficult years. If you're asking me what I would like the government to do so that we can meet our obligations, I'd have to answer that I would like the Canadian government to lend us its support for the next five or six years and cover our organization's dues to Geneva.

This is not an unusual request. The German Red Cross, which continues to oversee the country's blood program, despite encountering problems similar to ours, has an annual operating budget of over Can$4 billion. Yet, the German government pays the statutory contributions of the German Red Cross.

The same thing occurs in a number of other countries and I could supply a list for you. As you know, we play an auxiliary role to the government's humanitarian aid efforts. We work in partnership with others. We apply the terms of the Geneva Conventions in which we are specifically identified. Therefore, you can view us as a special partner of government.

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One way for governments to acknowledge the special role of the Red Cross is often to pay the statutory contributions. That has not been the case in Canada and given the difficult times we are experiencing, such an offer might give us some room to breathe. As you can imagine, given the ongoing budget consolidation process, we are not having an easy time of it.

Ms. Diane Marleau: Have you contacted officials and asked them to ease your contribution schedule?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: I think officials are well aware of the situation, but as for making a formal request... We only completed our restructuring 15 days ago. You're the first to be told. I repeat, it hasn't been an easy time for us.

Ms. Diane Marleau: I understand completely. Perhaps the committee could make some recommendations.

The Chair: How much do you pay by way of dues?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: One million to the Federation and $350,000 to the ICRC. Simply put, the International Movement of the Red Cross is divided into two branches: one branch, comprised of the Federation and the National Societies, serves in peacetime, often handling disaster and earthquake relief efforts. The other branch, the International Committee, serve in times of conflict or war.

As a rule, we contribute $1 million to the Federation and $350,000 to the ICRC.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Paradis.

Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Several times throughout the course of your presentation, you mentioned a partnership with the Canadian government. For instance, you noted the following on page 3:

Internationally, the Canadian Red Cross manages or channels humanitarian assistance funding from CIDA for $20 million annually on average.

Further on on page 3, you state:

... when we, the Canadian Red Cross, work together with the Government of Canada.

And on page 4, you talk about commitments in the following words:

We pledged to improve Canada's emergency response capacity, capitalizing on our strengths and competencies.

Can you give us any concrete examples of steps that could be taken to improve Canada's emergency response capacity?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Yes, I can, and I will ask my colleague Paul Wharram to fill in some of the blanks.

For instance, I would like to see Canada have a very proactive emergency response team. DND could be standing by to fly in this team , or a CIDA assessment team, using its own aircraft, as is done in Germany or in Australia. The Canadian Red Cross would travel to the disaster scene immediately to oversee an operation, after CIDA has assessed the situation.

In the case of other operations involving Foreign Affairs, for example, I would like to see a kind of emergency response team that is capable of mobilizing quickly; I'd like to see provisions stored on a military base and the possibility of shipping certain emergency supplies, such as beds or water treatment equipment. I'd like us to offer to share with these countries, working in partnership with CIDA and DND, the expertise of our highly trained delegates who are ready to spring into action.

For example, should a disaster occur in Mozambique or some other East African nation, we would be able to fly in a team of workers, just like the Americans. We would be able to assess the situation, to immediately deploy trained workers and, a few days later, to fly in supplies by helicopter. It would be wonderful to have that capability.

Mr. Denis Paradis: And, if I understand correctly, that's not the way things are done today. You're thinking about a kind of humanitarian relief SWAT team.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Precisely.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Can you tell me what procedure is followed today, to give me a better understanding of what you're requesting? Right now, at which point are you called in when a disaster strikes in some remote part of the world?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: I can give you an idea of the sequence of events that unfolds.

Canada, like the Red Cross, has yet to develop this response capability. As you can understand, circumstances preclude our doing so.

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Often, we find ourselves dealing with situations like the one that arose yesterday. I received a telephone call advising me that the situation in Mozambique was out of control. We weren't certain of what kind of action to take. Therefore, we appealed to the public's generosity, collected donations and sent them to Geneva which, in turn, appealed to other national societies with response capabilities. The money is then used to send workers from either Finland, Sweden or Germany to assist in the relief effort.

I would prefer to see Canadian donations used to send in troops, workers and CIDA assessment teams, in other words, Canadians who are capable of providing the required services.

Our involvement could be limited to merely transferring funds to the Federation, as we did yesterday in the case of Mozambique. Or, when we have more time, as we did when Hurricane Mitch struck, after several weeks have passed, we can ask a worker already on site in the region to fly to the devastated region or town and assess the situation, following which we dispatch am assessment team to the area, often in collaboration with CIDA.

Ms. Marleau will recall the extensive operation undertaken when Hurricane Mitch hit the area. We dispatched both food and humanitarian aid supplies. Generally, speaking, however, the best we can do is respond about 15 days after the initial disaster. Often, the most difficult days for victims are the first 15 days after disaster strikes.

I think we're capable of responding much more quickly. Often, we send money as quickly as possible and urge those in a position to intervene to do so. Why shouldn't we be responding to the call as well?

Is there anything more that you would like to add, Paul?

[English]

Mr. Paul Wharram: I would add only that we also have a role to play in the rehabilitation and reconstruction phases, which is often forgotten.

The initial stages after a disaster are high profile. The media covers them very well, and the public is very responsive to the initial appeals we make for emergency assistance. But in the reconstruction and rehabilitation phases, and in the development phase that follows, which is far longer than the emergency phase, there's a struggle and a challenge for all of us to contribute to the rebuilding of the communities that are destroyed, reducing the vulnerabilities and raising the capacities. This is another area of expertise that the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement is well experienced and knowledgeable in and makes a priority as well. We don't leave the disaster victims stranded after a disaster has taken place.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Paradis: In conclusion, I'd like to congratulate you on the excellent work you are doing.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Thank you very much, Mr. Paradis. We appreciate it.

The Chair: Thank you.

Dr. Patry.

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): I want to thank all of the witnesses for coming.

I have three short questions. Mr. Duplessis, at the beginning of your presentation, you stated that the 27th International Red Cross and Red Crescent Conference had adopted a solemn declaration. I've read this declaration and it is commendable. Have you altered your approach in any way? It may well be the first time I've seen an organization like yours issue a solemn declaration. Is your organization simply staying the course, as it were?

Secondly, you stated that you disseminate information internationally on humanitarian law and provide training in Central America. Who receives this training and how does this work?

Thirdly, you mentioned that you recently organized, together with the Department of Foreign Affairs, a workshop on “Children Affected by Armed Conflict: Turning Goodwill into Action”. I'm very interested in all of this for two reasons.

First of all, I am the President of the Canadian Section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie and this is a topic that we will be discussing next summer in Cameroon. Therefore, I would be interested in getting the reports from this workshop.

Secondly, I believe Mr. Paradis, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, can tell you that something is planned for this fall to address the issue of armed children. Canada wants to take on a leading role where this problem is concerned, something on par with its role in bringing about the ban on antipersonnel landmines. Thank you.

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Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Just give me a few moments.

Mr. Bernard Patry: Of course.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Regarding your first question, and perhaps I could ask the President to supply any additional details, there is nothing unusual about issuing a solemn declaration. It's one approach. The amazing thing is that approximately 150 Red Cross societies, as well as movements not operating under the Red Cross banner, come together every four years to participate, along with their respective governments, in the setting of a humanitarian agenda for the world's largest humanitarian movement. All of these individuals who hail from countries where stark contrasts abound, from countries where extreme poverty is prevalent but where nonetheless, small Red Cross organizations operate as best they can - all of these people came together to proclaim to the world: We have unanimously agreed on what needs to be done. It may not seem like much, but this is an extraordinary achievement in itself. These opportunities do not come along very often in a lifetime. It's inspirational, but not unusual. We managed to set down and agree on a humanitarian agenda for the next four years.

Perhaps you would care to add something to that, Armand.

Mr. Armand de Mestral: Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I would just like to add that there is a great deal of talk today about the role of NGOs in the establishment of international law, a task which until recently, was the exclusive domain of states, a task taken on with their own specific objectives in mind. However, in recent years, whether in Rome or in Osaka, hundreds of NGOs have descended on large gatherings, sometimes to governments' surprise, as we saw in Seattle, and they often play an extremely positive role. It's interesting to note that the Red Cross has been assuming this role for decades. Our organization is formally mentioned in the Geneva conventions and protocols. For the past 100 years, the Red Cross has been the driving force behind international accords and in some respects, the conscience of humanitarian law. It has helped to draft and develop international conventions on humanitarian law. It plays a very unique, and in some respects, leading role in this field.

Today, of course, many other noteworthy humanitarian organizations are following in our footsteps and playing complementary roles. However, national societies and governments around the world are working together in this area in a remarkable, unique way.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Regarding your second question, we are involved in some fifteen countries in Central and South America. We train police officers and armed forces personnel in the tenants of international humanitarian law, that is respect for those injured in battle, respect for conventions on heritage assets, and so forth. These elements combine to form the basic values of a democracy and a functioning civil society. We start with some basic principles, including condemnation of torture and the like. These are the types of activities in which we are involved in some 15 Central American countries.

Many other educational programs are carried out, but none have the scope of this educational program on international humanitarian law. Once again, I remind you that the Red Cross is the premier organization for implementing the Geneva conventions and conventions respecting international humanitarian law. As such, our role is quite unique. Canada is appreciated in these countries because of its history. It is not a colonial power, but rather a colonized, neutral country.

The Chair: [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

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Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Our tradition speaks for itself. Canada is not a warring nation and that fact is greatly appreciated. As my colleague Armand de Mestral so aptly stated at the beginning of his presentation, not only do we speak French and English, but often Spanish as well, a fact which is much appreciated.

Regarding the workshop on child soldiers, I'd like Paul Wharram to address that issue. This is an important area in which Canada can make a name for itself, just as it did on the issue of antipersonnel landmines. The campaign to ban antipersonnel landmines was spearheaded by the ICRC and led to a Nobel prize. The first to get involved were Red Cross doctors. They decried the senseless carnage and called for action to be taken. A decade passed before the world was made fully aware of the problem.

On the issue of child soldiers, we are prepared to lend a hand and to make Canada a leader in tackling this problem. Paul can tell you more about this.

[English]

Mr. Paul Wharram: I'll approach this from three perspectives.

First of all, our strategy encompasses addressing awareness within the international community. Our objective, as was done so effectively with the leadership of Canada in the land-mine campaign, is to absolutely stigmatize the notion of recruiting children as soldiers under the age of 18. That's the objective—to make it so unacceptable within the international community, as were land mines, that it is unacceptable to do this in any country of the world. So raising public awareness within the international community is the first objective.

The second objective is to address the root cause, why children become soldiers in the first place, whether this be related to poverty, lack of educational opportunities, or values. We are addressing all three of these things through our development programs, through our educational programs, and through the dissemination of humanitarian values to tell young people that there is an alternative to violence.

The third approach or strategy is to demobilize and reintegrate child soldiers once they have left the ranks of being soldiers. That's a difficult challenge, because in many cases they have been isolated by their families, completely isolated by their communities, and there has to be a way of supporting them and reintegrating them back into civil society. The solution to that is programming and providing them with the tools to reintegrate and the support.

In all three of those areas, we look to our partners for assistance in this issue.

[Translation]

Mr. Bernard Patry: I'd just like to thank Mr. Duplessis, because training is a very interesting subject. It's good to know to whom the Red Cross is providing training. If you have the reports from the workshop held jointly with the Department of Foreign Affairs, I would appreciate your sharing them with the committee, if possible. Perhaps you could forward this information to the clerk. I'm really interested in following up on this subject, as is my colleague. This is one area in which we can do a tremendous amount of good for society. Again, thank you.

Mr. Armand de Mestral: I simply want to add that we staged this workshop jointly with the national societies of Colombia and Sierra Leone. As a result, the testimony presented was even more factual and at times, more poignant. The President of Sierra Leone had literally lost part of his hand. Fortunately, he is on the mend, but he was caught in this terrible conflict, as were his children. He related to workshop participants the social and human conditions in his nation which make children easy targets and victims. It's the same in Colombia. While the situations are not exactly the same in the two countries, here again, children are almost always the most vulnerable and the first to suffer when conflict erupts.

Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount-Royal, Lib.): I too would like to congratulate you on your humanitarian commitment.

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[English]

As my colleague Professor de Mestral put it, this is not a new involvement. The International Red Cross is really at the forefront and has been a pioneer in the whole development of international humanitarian law.

I have two questions that I will put to Professor de Mestral, if I may. The first is the involvement of the Canadian Red Cross in the teaching of international humanitarian law to members of our armed forces—in particular, those designated for peacekeeping duties.

Secondly, at the recent International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent, I understand that a reference was made to the prospective inclusion of Magen David Adom as part of the movement. I wonder if you could comment on that as well.

Mr. Armand de Mestral: Thank you, sir. Perhaps I'll ask Paul Wharram also to speak about both these points. They are interesting and important ones.

We have certainly had a longstanding commitment to the Department of National Defence to assist in training, especially those who go out on peacekeeping missions, but of course not limited to soldiers on peacekeeping missions. But given the intense involvement of the Canadian military in peacekeeping operations, it's particularly relevant.

I think it's fair to say—and I'll let Paul Wharram speak further—that is an area where we're proud of what we do, but we could do a lot more.

As a professor of international law, I was particularly struck at the international conference by the fact that the Australians came to this meeting not only with an international humanitarian rights law coordinator, a brilliant young woman with a doctorate in international law, but also accompanied by the Red Cross professor of humanitarian law who teaches at the University of Melbourne.

As a responsible person for the Red Cross, but also as a law professor, I would dearly love to see somewhere in Canada a professor of international humanitarian law, a chair of international humanitarian law. That is something that perhaps might be done over the long term by the Red Cross and with the assistance of public authorities, whether federal or provincial.

Mr. Irwin Cutler: I might add that I had the Australian experience in mind, having visited Australia and been hosted by the chair.

Mr. Armand de Mestral: What they have done is quite remarkable. Indeed, I think we can learn from their example.

I'll ask Paul Wharram to say a little more about the specific programs, because they're important.

With respect to the second point, the longstanding and very difficult question of the place of what one might call the Israeli Red Cross, the Magen David Adom, the society that plays that role and in every way meets the requirements of the international movement, the problem to resolve turns around the issue of the symbol. As you well know, symbols are tremendously important, perhaps particularly to the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement, because our symbol is one of protection. The very purpose of the symbol from the start has been to say that those who have the privilege of carrying the symbol should be protected and respected, those who go in to visit prisons, those who go into prisoner of war camps, and what have you, on behalf of the Red Cross.

Red Cross delegates bear that badge, and not always, sadly, but normally enjoy protection conferred by the symbol. There is therefore intense concern within the movement that any resolution of the issue of the entry of the Magen David Adom be one that does not fundamentally upset the value of the symbol as it is now used. Doubtless we could have all done more and better to resolve the problem, but unfortunately I think it's partly the desire up to now of the Magen David Adom to have their symbol enjoy an equal place with the Red Cross, which has been a very difficult issue to resolve.

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It was our understanding that there was some movement toward compromise within the Magen David Adom. Also, I think I should say, at this point a new committee has been struck by the standing committee of the movement to reach a comprehensive solution. They are envisaging every possibility, including a completely new symbol, which would be an extraordinarily difficult thing to achieve, given that this would have to be approved by every government signatory to the Geneva conventions as well as by national societies. It would involve abandoning what is probably the most highly recognized symbol in the world, far more than Coca Cola even. So one doesn't give this up lightly.

Having said all this, I think we all need to work harder to resolve this problem.

I'll ask Paul Wharram to add some more.

Mr. Paul Wharram: Thank you.

If I could just add to that, I often say to people that the red cross and the red crescent do not belong to the Red Cross and Red Crescent. The symbols of the Red Cross and Red Crescent belong to states that are party to the Geneva Conventions. So to introduce a new emblem, such as the red Star of David, and to get it included under the umbrella of the Geneva Conventions requires, first and foremost, the decision and the ratification of all state signatories to the Geneva Conventions. There are 180-odd signatories to the Geneva Conventions. So first and foremost, it requires collective support from the governments that have signed the Geneva Conventions.

However, having said that, the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement is very concerned about ensuring that this issue stays alive and that we do find a way whereby the Magen David Adom can sit equally within the movement and enjoy the same rights as do all other national societies of the movement.

It's a very complex issue. There's no simple answer to it. It requires much negotiation. We're hopeful that now that the standing committee has agreed to strike this task force, in which the governments have been invited to participate, a solution will be found to the issue.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Thank you, Paul.

Mr. Cotler, perhaps I can come back to the IHL issue, international humanitarian law, just to give you a sense of how severe the situation is right now within the Red Cross. We had a position of coordinator of IHL, but because of a lack of funds, we've asked the ICRC to fund the position for us. We were paying the expenses so that this coordinator could be located in Ottawa and coordinate all efforts throughout Canada. This position has been vacant since last May because Mr. Nicholas Borsinger went back to Armenia. We are desperate to find the necessary funding so that we can fill that position.

It does not mean that there are no activities pertaining to IHL—on the contrary. But being the organization responsible for the dissemination of IHL and being the organization with experience, I think this is unacceptable. I would strongly urge financial support, because this is not acceptable.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Paradis.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Mr. Chairman, I have only one question. You talked about restructuring. In the financial statements of the Canadian Red Cross, it is noted, I believe on page 7, that the stay of proceedings has been extended until February 29, 2000. If I'm not mistaken, that's today. Where exactly are you in the restructuring process?

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: This is my favourite topic of discussion. For clarity's sake, when we transferred the administration of the blood program, we asked that this be done without any encumbrances whatsoever. We wanted the approval of the court to be certain that everything was in order. We thought that we might be prosecuted - although that hadn't yet happened - for several billion dollars and we wondered what we could do. We sought out the legislation that best applied to our situation, and that was the Companies' Creditors Arrangements Act, more commonly referred to as the bankruptcy protection act.

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We came before the courts on July 20, 1998 and requested an extension beyond the first 60 days. Wednesday of last week, we requested a further, and we hope, last, extension. I think it will be the last one. The Superior Court of Ontario granted us an extension until June 30 last Friday, which means that we must submit our restructuring plan to our creditors by that date. Our plan includes arrangements to pay victims of hepatitis C and to pay our creditors. The plan will be put to a vote. Victims will vote by the thousands on our plan, which is somewhat out of the ordinary. All of this should happen before May 31.

Therefore, there will be a vote and we will find out if the Canadian Red Cross's proposal will be either accepted or rejected by the organization's creditors. After that, things will happen automatically. If the plan is rejected, the Canadian Red Cross will emerge from the court's protection, so to speak, and revert to the situation that prevailed on July 19, 1998.

If the plan is approved, the court considers it. There is an appeal period during which every detail is scrutinized carefully to ensure the accuracy and legality of the proposal. If everything is found to be in order and the court gives its blessing, the judge issues an order for the execution of the plan. Creditors are bound by the proposal, as are the victims, even those who did not vote, because the will of the majority rules.

That's where matters stand at this time. We are quite hopeful that the plan, the details of which we are finalizing with the government, victims, insurance companies and other stakeholders, will prove acceptable to our creditors. It's not an easy process. Once again, not many companies remain under the protection of the Companies' Creditors Arrangements Act for two years. In the meantime, we must continue to operate. We survive thanks to the charity of others.

The large corporations often wonder if they can put their trust in us, given that we are operating under bankruptcy protection. Yet, in spite of everything, these large corporations came through with thousands of dollars in donations to assist our operations involving the Kosovar refugees. That's amazing. Canadians donated $9.2 million to the Hurricane Mitch relief effort.

Therefore, despite the circumstances, we continue to receive support, but still more support is needed. We are competing with other agencies and it isn't easy. When we go to Geneva, we're they only Red Cross society in this situation, which is embarrassing, to say the least.

That's where things stand.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Then, you should have an answer by May 31.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: Yes. Our fate will be decided on May 31.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: I have one question arising out of your presentation. You mentioned the use of force in connection with international humanitarian law, and we've been hearing a lot about that as we've been conducting hearings on Kosovo, which you might be familiar with. You mentioned specifically that this is something that needs to be reviewed in light of the charter itself, given the fact that in the Kosovo situation there's a debate as to whether or not the intervention was legal under the charter, and if it wasn't, what are the consequences of that in international humanitarian law, etc. So there are a lot of grey areas there.

Is the Red Cross itself or the International Red Cross going to propose the conditions under which it would suggest that the UN authorize or accept that humanitarian intervention take place? I believe Mr. Axworthy in his speech to the UN set out a series of five criteria where he thought it would be appropriate. Are you making representations to the UN? Does that involve changes to the way in which the Security Council operates and authorization would be given, so that we wouldn't get into a situation as we did with Kosovo, where no authorization was given?

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Mr. Armand de Mestral: This is really the kind of issue on which the international committee, if it is acting at all.... It is the vehicle for policy-making and direction. National societies don't really get into that kind of question involving high policy and general principles of international law, such as the charter.

From the perspective of the national society, what we can say is that like every other Red Cross Society, we are there to help all victims. Indeed, the Canadian Red Cross Society was involved in work in refugee camps and is now involved in work in rehabilitation efforts on every side of the line—in and out of Kosovo, in Albania, in Macedonia, in Serbia. Everywhere there are victims, the Red Cross is trying to help. That's the kind of function the Canadian society would be involved in. If there is a long-term development of international law and policy at this higher level, it would be ICRC that would be involved in making this kind of new policy.

The Chair: Have these recent events brought the Red Cross and the Red Crescent closer together in terms of collaborating?

It seems, if you go back 25 years, one didn't see much reference to the Red Crescent. Now it seems to be accepted that there's almost a united approach to issues by the two organizations.

Mr. Armand de Mestral: They're not two organizations; they're one. There's one movement. The federation was formed, if one goes back into history, at the impulsion of the Americans, the British, the French, and the Germans wishing to intervene shortly after the First World War, when there was the terrible influenza epidemic that swept Europe and Poland, and one million people died in a single winter. There was great interest, particularly in the United States, in having a vehicle to bring aid to the victims of suffering in the aftermath of the war.

For a variety of reasons that are too complex to go into, at that point the ICRC and the national societies decided they would go their separate ways. What was called The League was then formed—as I recall, seven years later—by essentially a group of Europeans, with one or two Latin American societies. Subsequently, a major effort was made to bring in the Middle Eastern societies, and at that point the movement became known as the Red Cross and Red Crescent Society. In fact there's even a third, the Red Lion of Iran, which, at the behest of Iranian society, is no longer used, but could be, and it's mentioned in conventions.

So that's the actual history. But there is no doubt there is one movement and one federation. The federation is known as the Red Cross and Red Crescent Society, hence some of the difficulty with the Magen David Adom—not at the level of principle, action, and humanitarian intervention, but at this unfortunately, up to this point, insoluble question of what symbol to use and whether the symbols should be limited to those already in use.

Dr. Pierre Duplessis: On that issue, I think the challenge is a little different. Just in Canada, there are now 70,000 charities. So the problem is totally different. It's not within the family of the Red Cross; it's collaboration on the ground when there are operations. If there are 70,000 in Canada, imagine all across the world. It's just unimaginable.

The Chair: Right.

Okay, Madame Marleau.

Ms. Diane Marleau: I have a notice of motion in which I will present a motion to the committee that this foreign affairs committee recommend that the government, namely CIDA, help the Canadian Red Cross meet its international obligations until such time as they can do it again on their own, if that's the case.

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I am unable to put the motion on the floor today for two reasons. One is because I haven't given notice. The other is that we don't have quorum. If we had had quorum we could have perhaps discussed it, if everybody had been in agreement to discuss it.

So I will do that, because I sincerely believe that you are an extremely important part of our humanitarian image around the world. I think it is a shame that you have been unable to meet these payments. And as other countries do with theirs, the government can help.

The Chair: We'll take that as a notice of motion, and we'll bring it up when we have full quorum.

Ms. Diane Marleau: Hopefully it will pass.

The Chair: I'd just like to add my thanks to our witnesses for the work the Red Cross does internationally and locally. I know that for example in my own riding they have a very effective “Out of the Cold” program, which I've actually been a volunteer in. They seem to be more conscious about making us put on hats and gloves than other people. I don't know, it must be some medical thing, Mr. Duplessis, that others don't seem to do.

Anyway, it's very effective in our own urban area and across Canada, as well as internationally. It was very interesting for us to hear about the international work.

I just want to, on behalf of all the members of the committee, thank you very much for taking on the responsibility to ensure that this extraordinarily important institution survives what must be a very difficult period in its history, and we wish you the best in coming through this difficult period. We're sure you will, and it will be for the benefit of all Canadians and the rest of humanity if, as, and when you do. Thank you very much for all your evidence.

We're adjourned until nine o'clock on Thursday.