AAND Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES AUTOCHTONES ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DU GRAND NORD

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, November 17, 1998

• 0917

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.)): Order, and good morning.

[Translation]

Today, Tuesday November 17 1998, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we shall continue our study of Aboriginal economic development.

It is our pleasure to welcome Mr. Jerry Primrose representing Nelson House First Nations and Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak Inc., along with one of his assistants. You may make your opening statement, Mr. Primroses. As someone from the Cree Nation, I believe your traditional greeting is tansi, isn't it?

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose (Nelson House First Nations, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak Inc.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We'd like to thank the standing committee for the invitation to come and make a presentation to the committee members. Sydney Garrioch, the acting grand chief of the MKO region, was supposed to be here to make a presentation, but because of other commitments, I was asked to stand in his place.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo will be making some introductions to the presentation, and I will be filling in on some of the other aspects of what we want to talk about.

Thank you.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo (Chief Executive Officer, Northern Manitoba First Nations Development Corporation): Thank you very much.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Tom Nepetaypo. I'm with the MKO organization. Actually, I'm a CEO for Northern Manitoba First Nations Development Corporation, which is an affiliate of MKO, the economic development arm of MKO.

• 0920

What I wanted to say to you this morning, so that you have an idea of where we're coming from when we do our presentation on economic development, is that there are a few maps we had left, which you may have in your possession.

The first map shows where all the first nations communities are. It gives you the whole picture of where the first nations communities are in Manitoba.

The second map shows the boundaries of Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, or MKO for short. Then the big line there, the northern part of Manitoba, is where we're coming from when we speak to you about the socio-economic strategies of MKO.

The third map shows the three tribal councils involved with MKO—Island Lake Tribal Council, Keewatin Tribal Council, and Swampy Cree Tribal Council. They are all part of the MKO organization.

Also on that map you'll see what we call three independent bands—Nelson House, Norway House and Cross Lake. They're not members of any of these three tribal councils, but they are members of the MKO organization. I wanted to straighten that out.

The fourth map is just showing the treaty affiliations. Most of us belong to treaties 5, 6 and 10.

The fifth one shows the adhesions signed by the bands that eventually joined the Treaty 5.

Pay more attention to the second map to know where we're coming from.

I understand our acting grand chief, Dr. Sydney Garrioch, left you a copy of our presentation. I don't know if you had a chance to review it or read it. I realize that most of you are quite busy. I don't know if you make time for this kind of work.

When I was involved with the federal government before, I used to try to make our MPs make time for these kinds of things, because they're important to every one of us.

If you have any questions pertaining to the presentation, we'd be more than glad to answer your questions. Or do you want a presentation done?

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you. I want to say how much we appreciate the maps you've just given us. They'll help us locate the places we are talking about. I should also tell you that you are our neighbours since my riding is just on the other side of Hudson's Bay. We can look across at each other.

Would you like to add something, Mr. Primrose?

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose: Yes. When I made my introduction, I forgot to mention that I'm the chief of Nisichanusihk Cree Nation, formerly known as Nelson House. We just changed it to the traditional name.

I also wanted to point out that under the strategy here we're trying to present, there are quite a number of things we're looking at in terms of where we'd like to base our economic development, an example being the forestry sector.

Right now, with the logging operation that's happening in Manitoba, specifically Tolko, they are moving into our area. As first nations, I think it's important that we take advantage of that for economic opportunity, whether it's through logging for Tolko or logging for the community.

I know there's quite a housing shortage in first nations communities, and that's one of the things we want to key in on as MKO representatives. So I'd like to make that point.

• 0925

As well, in the consumer goods and services industry, some of the first nations potentially could get into guiding, ecotourism, and fishing, just to name a few.

There's also the minerals sector. I think northern Manitoba has been well known for its mineral industry. I would like to maybe also point out that as first nations, that's one of the things we are looking at to enhance our community and our people.

For example, there was an opportunity in Cross Lake—it might still be there—and other first nations, which will probably have to start going into the exploration of minerals.

To my mind, transportation is the key aspect to the socio-economic strategy we're looking at. In terms of the rail line that goes to Churchill, as a first nation member I see it as an opportunity for us to use that rail line and also to look at improving air strips that are available to first nation members.

I think that issue kind of fell into our laps last winter when there were a couple of incidents in Manitoba because of the lack of proper facilities in terms of air strips. It's a concern for us, because for some of the communities in our region, they are dependent on air travel. Not all first nation members have the road system going into their place. As a first nation, we're one of the lucky ones; we have a highway that comes right by our community. We have tapped into it. I think it's really helped us in the last 22 to 25 years in terms of our socio-economic development.

I'd like to point out that with the development of highways, there's also the social impact it brings with it, but going into the 21st century, I think I'd rather be a first nation that has a road going into it rather than than just an air strip. Airplanes are expensive things to fly, which causes other extra expenses in terms of flying in food for the people.

One of the other things I'd like to point out concerns infrastructure. I think one of the key aspects of first nation communities in the northern Manitoba region, the MKO region, is that we need to develop the infrastructure that's right now very much lacking in terms of: safe water supplies; fire equipment and prevention; recreation facilities; childcare receiving and treatment homes; primary health and dental care; and other community services facilities.

We realize that's a very expensive proposition, but as I said, going into the 21st century here, we as a first nation need to enhance our opportunities and be part of the 21st century peoples of this nation.

We also look at the hydro services that are available to us. Some of the first nations are just getting into hydro. Most of them have been operating on diesel generators. By having the north-central line, for example, it presents an opportunity for people to come into the 21st century and be part of the great nation we have here.

There are also opportunities in terms of hydro development in the future that we, as Nisichanusihk Cree Nation, are looking at in terms of being joint venture partners with, in this case, Manitoba Hydro. Although that may be 10 or 15 years down the line, we are still looking at that possibility.

• 0930

I come to you here as not anti-development but as a positive force in northern Manitoba. In terms of my personal background, I'm basically an entrepreneur, I guess, so I'm very much interested in development in the business aspect of what I bring to you here.

All the things I mentioned here are, to my mind, opportunities, although not for everybody at the same time, but certainly to northern people in general.

The other aspect I would like to present is that in the housing sector, as we all know, first nations are lacking housing. By developing an economic strategy here, we're looking at self-improvement. We're not necessarily coming to you for handouts, but certainly we want to be able to do things for ourselves.

In terms of housing needs, I think historically, if we look at the country we live in, when this country was first building, it was all done with the logs we have here. I think that's what we'd like to present to you, that we want to be able to do it in terms of not being inhibited, as we have, by the regulations we have to follow. I know people's safety is very important, but certainly we want to be able to be flexible in terms of the housing needs we can do for ourselves.

The other aspect I'd like to present here is health services, which in some of the communities is very difficult because of the transportation problems related to the communities. I'd like to stress that most of the areas in the MKO region are by air travel, which reiterates the point that there's a greater need for good facilities to enhance air travel.

The last aspect I would like to really harp on is education. To me, education is the key to enhancing the people of the north. I am a proponent of pushing for education and pushing for a university of the north in Manitoba. I always mention this to every politician who will listen, because I really believe that to northern Manitoba, the university concept is something that needs to be looked at and expanded on for our region.

I always mention to people that it's very difficult for me as a parent to send my child to school 500 miles away. When I was growing up, I had to go down south, 500 miles away, to take high school. It's a very tough experience to leave home when you're 12 years old and to go to school 500 miles away.

I empathize with students when they have to leave, when they've been in the communities all their lives, and suddenly, when they become adults, are asked to leave to get an education. There's a tremendous failure rate because of that. I certainly believe that if there was a facility closer to home, people would use it.

In fact, they do use it. I'll use the example of Thompson, and the demand for education. It was brought to my attention that there was this one course they had offered, with room for 25 students, and 320 people applied. So it's not that there's no demand. Certainly there is a big demand for that.

I guess the last point I'd like to make regards the finance aspect of it. Although we do depend on the government quite a bit, I'd like to point out that, again, going into the 21st century, first nations are relying more and more on banks, so I think the accountability issue is always out there. Certainly when the first nations deal with banks there is accountability. I can say that for myself, as Nisichanusihk Cree Nation, because we do depend on the banks to quite an extent. I think with opportunities there is accountability, and in dealings with the bank there has to be accountability.

• 0935

I just wanted to point that out. To me, that's very important. I read quite a bit in the newspaper and in print specifically on the lack of accountability, but if we're going to be business oriented, looking at opportunities from the business side of it, I think it's important to point that out. I think banks deal with accountable people, not only among first nations people but everybody.

I'd like to stop here. I think a lot of what is in our presentation kind of ties in with itself.

Again, I thank you for the time, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Primrose.

[English]

Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I have a point of information.

Tom took us through the map. Now, some of us were involved yesterday with Bill C-56, which is the Manitoba claims bill. There was the matter of the flooding.

I wonder if on one of the maps, Tom, you could show us the flooded areas. Is that mainly South Indian Lake and Nelson House? Where would the damage have been?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: It actually starts at the mouth of Lake Winnipeg, where it says Norway House, and it works its way up to Nelson River, way up to Cross Lake through Split Lake. I don't know actually if you can see Split Lake there.

You can see Thompson, right?

Mr. Peter Adams: Yes.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Well, that's been affected too.

Mr. Peter Adams: I see Split Lake, yes.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Follow the Nelson River all the way to York Factory. If you can find Churchill River, you'll see South Indian Lake.

Mr. Peter Adams: I see South Indian Lake, yes.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: There was a diversion made there that caused a lot of damage when the water rose in South Indian Lake, Nelson House, all the way down the Burntwood tributary, to Thompson.

Mr. Peter Adams: You mentioned that Norway House, Cross Lake and Nelson House are independent, or separate, from the councils. I've forgotten exactly how you explained it. Does that have to do with the fact that they were most affected by the flooding?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: No. That was decided by each community, exercising their own local autonomy—development cross-stages and all that stuff.

Mr. Peter Adams: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Adams.

Mr. Primrose.

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose: I want to point out to people on the committee that with regard to the flooding, a dam was built on the northern part of South Indian Lake, and what caused the water to back up into the Burntwood was kind of a reverse flow. The Churchill River used to, even from Saskatchewan, flow into South Indian Lake going north to Churchill. So when they did that, they reversed that flow, and it forced the water to come in backwards into the Nelson River system.

One of the most impacted communities was South Indian. A tremendous amount of flooding happened there. If I'm not mistaken, it affected the fishing industry quite extensively there. Nelson House was also impacted in the sense that we were flooded. I think 15 or 20 feet of water came in. So we were impacted that way.

I just wanted to point that out. That's how it happened, in the simplest way. The Churchill River used to go into South Indian and up into Churchill, but now it can't. It stopped at South Indian and came back down on us and into the Nelson River system.

That's just a simple explanation.

Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): And the land's probably flat all through there, is that right?

Chief Jerry Primrose: It's quite high. That's one thing we're lucky about. If it wasn't high, some of the communities would have been flooded right out.

[Translation]

The Chairman: That is an unfortunate business.

We'll now start our round of questions. Mr. Scott.

• 0940

[English]

Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for appearing before the committee and providing the background for your proposal. I have some questions.

Mr. Primrose, you've told the committee that you see yourself as an entrepreneur. Have you started businesses in the past, and do you have any businesses right now that you own or operate?

Chief Jerry Primrose: Yes, sir. I've been in the school busing business since 1976-77. I used to be in trucking, but I don't do that any more. I also have a confectionery store, a convenience type of store.

Before I became chief, I was looking at going into construction, but now, being a politician, I had to turn over my businesses to my brother on trust. So I don't really have any control of my businesses right now. I still have them, but they're in trust. My brother is looking after them.

Mr. Mike Scott: Basically what I'm establishing is that you have a track record of some success in business. I think that's pretty important.

Chief Jerry Primrose: Relatively, yes, just within the community itself. I mean, I haven't expanded out of the community. I've been sheltered in one community.

Mr. Mike Scott: Right.

In terms of the proposal, you're showing an annual carrying cost, at least for one year, of about $570,000. Is this a one-year proposal or is this an ongoing commitment you're looking for from the government?

Chief Jerry Primrose: Maybe Tom can respond to that better. We worked together on this, and he is more or less the technical person, and can probably speak better on that.

Mr. Mike Scott: Okay.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: I put that in the methodology for one year to try to take advantage of the time span the Liberal government is going to be around.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: No, actually, the Gathering Strength document is what really I had in mind when I did the dollar value on it. I'm kind of hoping the Gathering Strength document will be around for some time, but I'm no greenhorn here; I've been with the government for several years, and a lot of times these new initiatives last for the term of the government that's in, and God knows what the next government will do with that project.

So I was trying to take advantage of it by completing the task in one year as opposed to a two-year project. I personally would rather see a two-year system. On the third year, we'd be ready to take over a lot of the programs, all the projects, all the partnerships and all the initiatives that are stated in the document to assist our people, and also to develop our own human resources, using the conversions approach to these things.

That's why I used only one year there, because there was a time factor involved.

Mr. Mike Scott: Well, as a person who formerly was a businessman before I got into political life, I recognize that one year is a very short time span. But maybe I'll get into the next question.

You have $2.5 million identified as what you require for equity to get into acquisitions and/or partnerships. I'm wondering, do you have any specific business plans right now that demonstrate viable, potential businesses, and have you brought those with you? Is there anything we can see?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: I brought only a couple of them. I didn't really think that would be an issue here. We do have several business plans we put together that will require about that much money to have our equity into the business link. What we had in mind were the clinic, the pharmaceutical services, the airline service, and the hotel operations. Thompson is a city that requires another hotel. We're trying to accommodate that lack of accommodations in the town.

• 0945

We're also trying to accommodate the trend the hospitals are taking nowadays. I don't know about across Canada, but in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, they're starting to specialize in outpatient programming. That was why we wanted to establish a hotel-motel with a patient wing attached to it, to accommodate the hospital needs for outpatient programming.

I don't know if you're aware, but most doctors are taught to keep patients out of the hospital, not in hospital, and outpatient programming became an issue more than a year ago.

If I could speak on some of the Saskatchewan issues we dealt with, they're starting to specialize. One hospital will do the lab work and one will work on dialysis patients. One will work on diabetes, and maybe at another hospital there'll be a birthing centre or something like that. It accommodates their catchment areas, so to speak.

So we do have several business plans, back at the office.

Mr. Mike Scott: Are you primarily thinking in terms of trying to assist individuals to get into business, or are you looking more at trying to get band councils or band-owned businesses established? What's your primary focus?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: All of them. We're trying to establish a partnership with the professionals, but also creating career incentives for our people to become professionals and establish these things in their own communities, if possible, or form a consortium or a group, a business kind of concept, to serve our own people.

As in Thompson, especially in northern areas there's a jurisdictional problem between federal and provincial. We don't have that problem. First nations don't have a jurisdictional problem.

What I was trying to do in that process is tie the two levels of government together to work with us so there is a mosaic of different professionals within their area and establish our own professional people to work with our people.

It's sort of a career incentive, because as of right now, if you look across Canada, there are a lot of lawyers, a lot of teachers and a lot of social workers, but we lack other professionals in such areas as dental services, optometry, optical services, and in the specialty areas, such as the critical mental health system, so to speak. I can go on and on. The engineering area we seem to want to establish so we can take part in construction and other industrial development in northern Manitoba.

Mr. Mike Scott: I appreciate where you're coming from, but I would point out that in my experience—and I'll offer that, for whatever it's worth—successful businesses are almost always started and expanded and operated by individuals who have the drive and the ambition and the vision and so on to make it work.

My experience is that governments—and I don't look at any particular government; I think you can put them all in the category—have a difficult time running a business successfully. As a matter of fact, there are very few examples where government ever does it. I offer you the Canada Post Corporation and the former Canadian National Railway as examples of how government has a difficult time managing a business.

I would really urge you in your thinking to look at trying to help individual members of your community—those who have an interest and have a desire and have an ambition—to be able to realize that through access to capital and so on. I recognize that's a problem. I have a difficult time, though, with the notion of any government being in business, because fundamentally, I think, government in business is an oxymoron. I don't think the two go together at all.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: I agree with you.

Mr. Mike Scott: I'm glad to hear that.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: That's not the intent of this thing, to bring in government. Rather, it's individual.

Mr. Mike Scott: Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Scott.

Mr. Bryden, please.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: You're incorporated, but incorporated where, in Manitoba?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Yes, Manitoba.

• 0950

Mr. John Bryden: And you have shareholders and owners?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Yes, we have that in there, but we haven't exercised that yet.

Mr. John Bryden: Well, the question then becomes, just to follow on Mr. Scott.... Let me tell you, first of all, that I have great sympathy in terms of your presentation, and I like what it says, but I do have a little difficulty. Normally if you're starting a business—and you're starting a business, I take it; this is a business we're talking about that you want to undertake—the shareholders or the owners or somebody have put up some money to get the business started. Do you have any financial backers when you come to us?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: We haven't really pushed it that way. Under other corporations, we have, but this is a new corporation. It's not even a year, I guess. It'll be a year this month, actually.

So I haven't really pushed the idea of having shareholders getting involved in financing any of these businesses.

Mr. John Bryden: Isn't it so, though, that if you're an incorporated company, you're there to make a profit, and you're there to develop a business and make money, presumably for yourselves and your owners and shareholders?

I only have one other observation, then. I appreciate your candour in putting down a budget in which you lay out the salaries you expect to get, but I have to make the observation—and I have a little experience here, too—that when you start your own business, normally the owners and shareholders expect to work for peanuts, particularly the head officers—no, seriously—so that when the company gets going, they can reap a financial benefit when the company begins to show a profit.

My difficulty here—and I say this with the greatest respect—is that I don't see any financial commitment coming from either you or the people backing you. If I were to make a recommendation on your presentation—again, I say I have a lot of sympathy for it, because I think it has great ideas in it—I would want to see you bringing to the table some commitment, some risk, on your part and on the part of the people who back you rather than, as appears to be the case, having the government subsidize the risk entirely.

Do you have a comment on that?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: I suppose I could respond to you in this way. We would do that if we had the finances in our communities to cost-share—and let's put it that way—on the initiatives identified in this document. As you realize, the history's always been, as it states in the document, that subsidization is what we're looking at here. What I was relying on when I did this document was the Gathering Strength document. As you know, Indian Affairs has identified $250 million in the Gathering Strength document, and I don't know where that money is going. Getting back to accountability, I'd like to know where it's going.

I wanted to take advantage of some of that money so that we can get going on this. Once we have that footing, then we can start going back to the actual operation, or corporate management, of searching for shareholders' input into the business operations.

It's not an easy task for us. Every bank that's been in there is always concerned about collateral when first nations come to them for a loan, unless you're working and have a good record of employment. It's not that easy to get that kind of assurance or even a credit from the general public.

I mean, I can go around asking. I've had interested parties in Toronto, but they weren't prepared to commit any money. Rather, they wanted to be the management of the hotel. I did send them a business plan and what we would require to get the project started.

Mr. John Bryden: Do I still have a minute or two, Mr. Chair?

The Chairman: Maybe a minute.

Mr. John Bryden: I just want to say that I have 100% sympathy for you wanting to take advantage of the program, but I have to make the observation then that if you cannot raise the money yourself to get it started, I suggest that you begin with the salaries. The level you've proposed is a little bit hard to accept if one considers it in the context of any one of us here who may have tried to start a business. We don't expect to start at $75,000. We would expect to start maybe at $20,000 or $30,000.

• 0955

If I may make a suggestion to you, the way I would approach it, given your circumstances, would be to make a plan whereby you come in at very modest income for yourselves to start up the business, and show some performance promises that would return to you a better return on income.

In other words, if you were indicating that next year you will show a profit of $500,000 if you get going, then I would expect you to want to get better remuneration. But to start in at the top.... Again, I appreciate your candour for putting forward this budget as you've done, because it gives us something to look at, but I think you need to re-examine that portion of your presentation if you want to get a subsidy from Indian and Northern Affairs. But I encourage you to do so, because I think your ideas are good.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Bryden. Mr. Crête.

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): The subject that most impressed me in your presentation and that I'd like to come back to is education. I gather that it is an important concern for you. I can't claim to know much about northern Manitoba, I hardly know it at all but I'd like you to explain to us what type of investment you think would be necessary to enable people to continue their education in their local community.

I come from a part of Quebec where the Université du Québec network has been developed, a network consisting of campuses throughout the province. There are other ways of providing such services in the smaller communities, including access to Internet.

Do you not think there is a viable way for the federal government to go back contributing to the social development of northern Manitoba? Wouldn't it be a good idea to extend its community access program enabling small communities to establish links through Internet? Don't you think that a heavy investment in this sector would allow these communities to go beyond the traditional development model? I know it will be necessary to continue exploiting the model based on natural resources in the future but this is not necessarily the only model. There may be another way of crossing the threshold of the 21st century.

In conclusion let me say a few words about Mr. Scott's remark. I have seen examples of considerable amounts of industrial and economic development undertaken by certain companies. But never would I trust them with the responsibility of social development because that is not their area of expertise. I think that in the outlying areas, symbiosis with governments will always be important.

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose: That's one of the things I failed to mentioned, the technology we now have available to us. I certainly agree with you that we should use the technology.

For example, in Nisichanusihk Cree Nation, where I come from, we are working towards that in terms of the computer. Going on two years, I think, we've used the computer to educate our high school students. So we are going into that. I can't speak for the other communities, but certainly that's one of the things I believe in, that with the technology we have, there is nothing that's impossible. Maybe we don't need a $15 million or $20 million infrastructure, a central building to do the educating, because of the technology we have.

So I certainly agree with you on that, and I thank you for the point.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: I'd like you to give us a few examples so that we can have some idea of the ingredients that can make a success of your part of the country. On the one hand, can you tell us about something that is working well in northern Manitoba, a success story as far as economic developing goes and the conditions for success and, on the other hand, something that didn't work out and the causes of this failure?

• 1000

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose: I can only use the Nisichanusihk Cree Nation as an example. Just recently, part of the northern flood compensation we got from the federal government and the provincial government and Manitoba Hydro we invested in a hotel in Thompson, Mystery Lake Hotel. To my mind, it is a tremendous success, as we speak.

Although we're just going into the first year, I know the business itself is going to give us dividends. I mean, in any business, you expect a dividend. If it's a new business, it usually takes three to five years, but this business we invested in will give us a dividend this year. It will give the first nation a dividend. I can use that as an example of a success.

I don't really know of any failure. To a certain degree, I guess, it's human nature; we don't like to admit to failures. But certainly I can't think of anything offhand that's a failure, or one that I see.

I've been around for four years as a chief of first nations, and I don't really know of any failures. I was confined to the first nation of Nisichanusihk before, so I can't see...but I'm sure there must be. Like any other businesses that involve money, there are failures every day in this world, and I'm sure there must have been in ours. Personally, though, I don't know of anybody's failure. I just don't know of any.

Thanks.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Crête, you have the floor.

Mr. Paul Crête: It seems to me you're giving us very political answers. Let me give you an example of something that occurred in our area with no direct effect on you.

In the 1970s, the decision was taken to shut down a number of villages in our region because of the belief that they were not viable, whatever government was in power. The inhabitants were expected to go live in somewhat larger centres so that the little villages would just die out. People realized that unfortunately the people ended up on social welfare.

I am not asking for an act of contrition but merely doe an example. Let's take a more positive approach. What sort of factors would come into play if there were to be a boom in the economic development of northern Manitoba 20 years from now? What sort of conditions would there have to be to explain a fantastic turnaround in the situation 20 or 25 years from now, what would bring about this success story? What sort of thing could make a difference in relation to the present state of affairs?

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose: When you make the example of small communities, you use an example...and it certainly jogs my memory in the sense that some of the first nations in our area in northern Manitoba were moved from where they were originally based. I can use Dooley Lake, for example. That was a first nation community that was uplifted and moved to Churchill. That was a disaster. Shamattawa is another example. It was a disaster, to my mind.

In terms of the communities that were moved, I don't know if you look at that in terms of failure for governments that made those moves in terms of the first nation people I'm talking about, but as a first nation member, I certainly look at the positive aspects. I have envisioned that in 15, 20 years we will be self-sufficient, not coming to Ottawa here to rely on federal funding. As a businessman and entrepreneur, I certainly don't like to have my hand out. I really want to survive and be able to do this myself, by my own.

We talked about education earlier. I think that's a key aspect, giving the people an opportunity to be properly educated, and to learn the business.

I mean, business is not something that falls in your lap. It's there, but there are lots of things involved. You have to know a lot of things. To my mind, survival is one of them. If people are geared to survival, or can survive in the business world, I think they can survive anywhere.

• 1005

Certainly with the technology we have and the educational opportunities that come with that technology, I think it goes hand in hand, and we're not an exception.

For example, I was reading an article in the paper on how they're using the Internet and stuff like that in the Nunavut territory. I think that's great. That's what we have to do, get on with reality and take advantage of the technological marvels that come before us.

So that's very interesting. I certainly look at this from a broad perspective. I can't look at it from a narrow perspective. If you look at the map and at the broad areas we have to deal with, it's very challenging, to say the least.

The Chairman: Merci. Monsieur Iftody.

Mr. David Iftody (Provencher, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Chief Primrose, for your presentation. I want to commend you on your past successes as an aboriginal business person in Manitoba. I realize how difficult it is generally. Like my colleague across the way, I too was in small business at one time. I recognize how difficult it is.

I think you make a very important observation, that businesses fail in the white community, in the aboriginal community. Notwithstanding your nationality, your race, or where you live in the country, $1 million doesn't speak French, English, Ojibway or Cree, and it walks fast. It holds for all of us, doesn't it.

I've been up to your community, as you know, to initial the treaty land entitlement agreement, a very historic moment for your people. I want to suggest to you that I was very impressed with your community. I'm also familiar with the work of the MKO, and some of their successes and failures, with always, of course, a willingness to keep trying to make the lives of your aboriginal people better. In so doing, of course, you're making our lives better, as the rest of Canada. We all share in your success and want to cheer you on to cross that finish line.

One of the things I noted was your venture into Thompson to purchase the Mystery Lake Hotel. I think you had mentioned this. I do know, from my trips into Thompson, the need for hotel space. I think you've touched on an important market niche.

With the treaty land entitlement settlement, settled recently, there was an award there of moneys. There's been some questions about how these moneys are received, whether they are put in trust, and how they are exercised in the community.

I believe this settlement was in the neighbourhood of $10 million or $11 million, if I'm correct. How would the community over the next ten years want to wisely invest this money, such as in hotels or otherwise? What kind of business adventures are anticipated for your community?

What kinds of protections are there, Chief Primrose, to ensure that the money is spent properly, that it's very sound, and that all of the members in the community are protected in their promise to realize some of their life chances through this settlement?

I wonder if you could comment on that.

Chief Jerry Primrose: Thank you. First, the treaty settlement was $1.9 million. I think maybe we had a settlement with a northern flood agreement. There was more money there.

Just to give a brief overview to the members here, in terms of the northern flood agreement settlement, annually we get $4 million. The community approves that money through CAP, or the community approval process.

• 1010

The community members annually present proposals to Nisichanusihk Cree Nation chief and council. From there the proposals are summarized and taken back to the people to make recommendations as to which proposals go where.

That's where the Mystery Lake Hotel concept came from. The people at that time said they were interested in going into economic development purposes. From there, the technical people hired a negotiation team to negotiate for the hotel. It was a long process. I mean, when you're making a purchase of over $4 million, you just don't walk in there and exchange money. There's a negotiation process. I think it took over a year just to complete that process. We finally finished on March 22, and officially took over the hotel operation on March 23.

Basically, that's how our community does this with, for example, the money we get from the northern flood agreement. We haven't had an opportunity to sit down and evaluate the TLE, but basically it will be the same process. It will be through the community, and the community will more or less, through proposals, dictate how that money is spent.

The key to my survival and to my people's survival is the accountability aspect. We certainly want to be accountable in the sense that we want to be accountable to the government. We want to be accountable to our people, most importantly, and we want to be accountable to the banks so that we have flexibility.

That's how I operate, personally. I can't speak for other first nation members, because it would unfair. I speak for myself.

I want to use as an example our buying of the hotel. There was a concern by the people who came to the meetings involved. They said, “If we're going to buy this place, we want to make sure it's protected, and future politicians, future leaders, don't abuse it or destroy it”.

So we set it up so that won't happen. It's a complicated process. There are lawyers involved. It's still not quite complete.

The people wanted accountability. They didn't want to see this place be abused in the future. I'm just like any politician; if people aren't happy with me, they'll throw me out.

That's the biggest problem we have in the northern region. We speak for MKO region. As you know, politicians come and go. For example, we talk about this strategy here. Maybe a few years down the line, we're not here, and people will come here and make a different presentation. I mean, those are the hazards of politics.

Mr. Crête talked to me in terms of the political answers I give. Well, of course; I'm a politician. I'm not dodging any issues, but certainly I'm trying to give the best answers I can without saying the wrong thing.

Our history in the Nisichanusihk Cree Nation is not that great either. I mean, we've had scandal after scandal there, and I think the people got tired of it. When they elected me as chief, they wanted accountability, and certainly that is my desire—to give them accountability and to take them as far as we can in terms of our economic future.

I look at our economic viability in terms of not next year but 15 to 20 years in front so that my first nations people will be viable and will survive into the next millennium.

Thank you.

Mr. David Iftody: Chief Primrose, I couldn't have heard a better response. I find this excellent, your admission of problems in the past in the community, in terms of the past leadership.

• 1015

I raise this, and I'm trying to focus on this, Chief Primrose, because I was in the House of Commons yesterday with my Reform colleagues—one of them the member from the Interlake—raising the question of the northern flood agreement, because we're doing the Norway House legislation. Speaker after speaker, six or seven of them, focused on this issue, I think trying to make more of it than it really is.

In other words, it was not looking at the positive work you've done, where you have a businessman chief who comes from the community, back to the community, who says, “Look, I realize we've had some problems, and we've made some mistakes”, and provides good political leadership to rectify those problems. We don't hear that coming out in the debate.

Your comments, Chief Primrose, about the community participation, about going to the community, hearing about proposals from them, receiving the proposals, going back then to the community again for further community consultation, I think is absolutely wonderful. You're providing us with great testimony and evidence here about intelligent, thoughtful protections for the people of the community. I can't think of anything more accountable.

As a matter of fact, Chief Primrose, in my rural municipality of Lac du Bonnet, we don't have that kind of consultation. I don't know of any rural municipality that has that kind of broad-based consultation in terms of their expenditure decisions, and I want to congratulate you on the work you're doing in your community. You used the word “accountability”. You've made admission that the community has not made the best decisions in the past, and I believe you're providing smart leadership for your people of Nelson House.

I want to put on record, Mr. Chairman, these kinds of comments, because this has to be entered into the record, and into the debate. I think fair-minded, clear-thinking men and women, if we have any, would want to consider these facts in making other kinds of observations about the economic activity of first nations communities in Canada.

In closing, Chief Primrose, thank you very much for those important interventions.

Chief Jerry Primrose: David, I want to point out too that under the community approval process system we have, that's not to say it's easy. It's not easy. I mean, people have different ideas, and it's not an easy process. It's very difficult for me as a politician. I just want to ram things through.

In retrospect, though, you have to listen to the people, in essence to the direction they give you. As I said, it's difficult sometimes. As a politician and as a businessperson, I see things maybe far ahead of others who don't have the experience I do. They see things only very closely. That's the difficult thing about it.

I'm also known as being very impatient, but I don't believe that, because certainly you have to have patience to implement a system like that.

I just wanted to make that point. As I said, it's not very easy. It's a very difficult process.

The Chairman: Merci. Tom.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to further respond to Mr. Bryden and Mr. Scott and whoever else has the same questions in mind.

This presentation was done as an arm of MKO, hoping to address all those questions you may have on your mind. I'm looking at it from a macro perspective; it's not just a one-company thing but rather a consortium of initiatives that we'd like to address for the MKO area.

I made some comments in the first paragraph on the objective of economic development, high unemployment, high risk factors, education systems. As you know, economic development is composed of three elements—education, discipline, and organization. Those things have to be addressed if we're interested in that kind of objective. We have to try to take advantage of any new programs or procurement policies or initiatives by this government that they announce in the House. There is a lot of money involved in all these cases, so we want to take advantage of those.

• 1020

This document was based on the fact that there are 27 communities in MKO, and each one of these communities has their own local initiatives, business or otherwise. They do have their own goals and aspirations. What we're trying to do as an organization, and the Northern Manitoba First Nations Development Corporation, is to establish a vehicle for each one of these communities so that they can develop at a local level. If their businesses do create some positive returns, maybe then they can start investing in a cost-sharing or joint venture concept on different tasks, as we're interested in within our company.

As I mentioned to Mike, we do have business plans, but that's from our company's point of view. In turn, we have shareholders, voting shareholders, the 27 communities that represent this organization.

We have looked at a lot of businesses and we have looked at the high unemployment rate, which I question in this country, even whether the 8% unemployment factor is really is a true factor. A lot of our communities do have an 80% unemployment rate. That's because the land, or you may want to call it the land that's allocated to each one of these first nations, has hardly any economic benefit in terms of the mining industry or forestry or other industrial development they can get into.

So there's a lot of social programming in these communities, in terms of health and education and other services, local infrastructure. But to get into sustainable development and other business development, you pretty well have to go outside those reserve boundaries. You're bound by the provincial government systems when you get into that area, and there's always a conflict.

I alluded to the jurisdictional issues. That's why I said, well, if they're going to be bound by those things, why not take the best of both worlds and put them into one and work with us? We'll take the leading role and provide that service.

For example, right now in Manitoba we've done a presentation on the economics of health services. If you look at that map of Manitoba, a majority of northern Manitobans go down south for their professional health services or medical attention. That's costing this government, or any government that gets in, a lot of money in patient transportation, accommodations, and all the good stuff that goes along with referring patients south. There's hardly any money spent in the northern hospitals to retain the patients and services in northern Manitoba.

The provincial government there is not paying the physicians, to retain them in northern Manitoba. In fact, there are only about six doctors in Thompson to accommodate 15,000 people. That's not good for the city of Thompson, but if you look at the total in northern Manitoba, there are 44,000 first nations people, and maybe if you added...I don't know, maybe 60,000 northern Manitobans, and there's only about 15 doctors in the whole north.

I'm being extravagant here, because I know The Pas has only six doctors. I don't know how many there are in Flin Flon, but I can estimate. I would estimate that there are 15 doctors for the whole of northern Manitoba. That's ridiculous with today's technology, in this age.

This is why this document is trying to address that. We have created a working relationship with South Africa and a few other countries. We're trying to get doctors and physicians to come and work in our area. What we're offering is a wage a lot higher than what the provincial government is willing to pay, and by the Constitution, the province has the jurisdiction on physicians' services and hospitals. We don't have a say in that.

Maybe what we should do as first nations is establish our own physicians and hospitals so that we can accommodate the needs of our people. In that sense, we would develop our own individual human resources and create our own individual businesses to accommodate those needs in the health services.

• 1025

The same goes for education. Chief Primrose referred to a northern university. As you know, a lot of us went to the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg. There was a lack of community support, lack of support in universities, to address northern people's needs. If we had our own northern university, I think you'd have a lot more retention, and more people going to school. Being away from the environment, you kind of lose touch. You get lonesome and all that stuff.

I didn't want to use that word, but you do get lonesome. You kind of lose touch with your environment, with your home community. You'd rather go to school up north than go to school in Winnipeg. I, for one, don't like cities, or concrete jungles, as I call them. I wasn't brought up in a city.

Those are the kinds of things we're trying to address in northern Manitoba. They have a northern university in Saskatchewan and Alberta and B.C., so why not Manitoba? Ontario has two universities. Why can't we have two universities in Manitoba, one in the north? I don't know, they have three down south; they can move one of them up north.

We have community colleges. We have one up in The Pas, and Thompson. They're going into what they call “distance education”. Even then the communications systems in northern Manitoba are not as good as they are down south. You can't even get fibre optic lines into our communities. You can't even get videoconferencing into our communities, because you need a lot of this stuff. Everything we try to do is based on pilot projects. We have to get through all this stuff.

So the economic development aspect has not really addressed the way we'd like to see it as first nations.

I was going to say to you, too, in answering everybody's questions here, that all 27 communities in the MKO area are developing at different stages. They're not at the same levels. You can't really group them in one. What we're trying to do is provide a vehicle to give them a catalogue of what opportunities they can get into to provide for their community. We've identified a lot of areas that require improvement.

What we also wanted to do under this document was to provide a catalogue and a comprehension concept for the communities. Some communities maybe don't have the resources to get into mining or forestry, or even gas production. The education system in a lot of our communities don't have even labs in their schools to comprehend any urban-centre type of education system. Where I come from, we don't have a lab in our high school. So when I go to school in Thompson, for example, I'm going to be lost.

So there's not an even, same-level type of education being provided in our communities. Sure, the government may be spending moneys on building new schools in some of the communities, but they sure as hell are not putting in any labs right now to accommodate high school students so that they can comprehend university courses, wherever they may decide to go, which is all down south.

Right now, Keewatin Community College is putting in computer labs in some communities where they have distance education programming. I think every community would like to have that kind of system in their communities so you can get into the communication/information economy systems, so that they can take advantage of these things.

We also want to establish what we call forward and backward linkages between communities and with our southern community. That's not happening. Everything's draining down south.

You have to come to Manitoba to realize what's really happening there. Among health professional services, dental and optometry services are sticking around Thompson, but other physicians and other specialty services are all located in Winnipeg. It's pretty hard to function that way. They've developed a system called locums. They come up only once a month, or maybe two or three days per month, to provide services.

• 1030

Thompson has no surgery program in their hospitals. The surgeon comes up maybe three days a week, or maybe twice a month. I don't know what the schedule is. I'm just showing you an example of some of the things we'd like to address as first nations, of the kind of people we'd like to have in our communities, whether it's urban or in a community level setting. There's a doctor providing services for three communities, and I'm sure she's burned out by now. It's pretty hard to find other doctors to come up there.

You see, these are the areas we want to address. We even established our own local dental hygienist. When the transfer of health services occurs to these communities, do dental hygienists become the responsibility of the provincial government? Again, there's another dilemma. The province has refused to step in to the reserve boundaries.

So those kinds of things happen. They're jurisdictional issues.

I even tried to take advantage of a transition fund program under Health Canada. They gave me only one week to put a package together. That's no good. I can't do that in one week. It's very unfair for us in northern Manitoba when a lot of the mail doesn't come until the deadline's already passed. That's just to give you an example.

This is one of the reasons we established this thing. We wanted to take advantage of the opportunities, and potential opportunities, in northern Manitoba. We were even involved with the MOU agreement between Manitoba and Nunavik, because we want to see what opportunities lie there. We may even talk about joint venture agreements with our brothers in the north, and have a trade agreement type of thing between our first nations.

Those kinds of things are worth looking at. There are a lot of other opportunities we'd like to get into, but we do have to take into consideration the needs and the aspirations of the first nations communities that may be affected by these initiatives.

One of you—I can't pronounce your last name—talked about positives and failures. We did have some positive economic development processes. We did own an airline at one time, under one tribal council. That failed mainly because there was a lack of education and expertise in that kind of business. It had the monopoly at the time. I don't know what happened.

First nations today are getting into the industrial and economic business development concept. I mean, we're a force to be reckoned with nowadays, because we're starting to get into it. It's just a matter of using the three elements in economics.

It would really help our people. In the meantime, a lot of leadership in the MKO area are what we call “crisis” managers, or reaction rather than proactive. We haven't quite fully addressed the needs of our community, and it's because of the funding formula being exercised by the government. It's not based on needs.

I suppose if we can enter into the business arena, we may be able to cost share or go into partnership with that system, for the communities to be able to do that. That is what this is trying to do as well. That's what I meant by convergence, using local resources to your benefit. If you do have an excess amount, then you can talk about exporting some of that expertise and those systems.

We have talked about going into partnership, as he mentioned, with Manitoba Hydro, forestry industries and all those things, which is working for some of the people, for some communities that have access to that kind of opportunity. But most of our communities are fly-in communities, so it's quite expensive.

As you may know, in terms of the north-central line and the hydro hookup to some of our communities in northern Manitoba, I believe by the time that project is done it will be well over $200 million. The return on that may be 35 years down the road, before they see the actual return on what this government's investing to hook up these communities. And there are still four communities that have no hydro land-line hookups. So you're transporting fuel into these communities. Manitoba Hydro's using fuel. The schools are using fuel. The health stations are using fuel in these communities for their power and for their heat.

• 1035

These are some of the things we want to try to address. We're working with Manitoba Hydro right now to establish an alternative method of producing power, what we call a low-head power-producing program, in some of these communities.

My background is as an electronic technician, and I've studied electronics technology for some time. I even got interested in—and there may be another term for it—broadcasting power. That's another issue; maybe I'm ahead of my time, but I'm sure you can produce power somehow, some way, without having to cause any floods or any environmental damage.

These are the kind of things I've been looking at personally. I've been introducing these ideas to Manitoba Hydro, and another technician said they're willing to listen to that kind of system.

We've also gotten ourselves involved with an international company, called Acres International. We're working with them to get involved in some of the opportunities that are in Manitoba, if not across Canada. We have had the opportunity to get into a business with Pharmasave, which has operations in Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan. When we submitted our bid, I think we were the only first nations organization that took advantage of the procurement policy. The day before awarding the contract, the medical services branch of Health Canada pulled it out.

So opportunities are lost when things like that happen. We even applied to bid for taking over optometry services in all of Manitoba, and that's been put on hold.

This gives you an idea, Mike, of what we've been trying to do to establish our own human resources on an individual basis as well as group. What we're trying to do is provide that kind of catalogue for these communities to take advantage of, or for individuals who are interested in going into a business of their own.

That's why these things are here—the transportation system, the fishing industry, agriculture. There is agriculture available in some of our communities, especially on the west side of Manitoba. They're into the agriculture fringe of the development process there.

The fishing industry is mainly in most of the water areas, and where the communities are in isolated communities, as most of them are.

The air strips need to be addressed, the air transportation systems need to be addressed. The infrastructure systems in the communities need to be addressed. We have to do some terrain analysis in order to make a lot of those things work.

Manitoba Hydro, as I mentioned, needs to start working with first nations people to make their projects more successful. Right now, it's costing them a lot of money bringing in people from the south to stay in northern Manitoba. Right now, they're starting to realize, as we speak, that they should train our people to fill some of these positions.

In Gillam, where I come from, we have three big dams we sleep on. I'm using that word because three dams surround the community I come from. There's Kettle Dam, Long Spruce, and Limestone. Most of this hydroelectric power being produced in that area is sold to the United States. Some of it is being used in Manitoba, but they can't keep the human resources in northern Manitoba because it's costing them a lot of money to pay for their salary, their accommodations, their reduction in hydro bills and all those things, whereas our people, who are always going to remain in northern Manitoba, can use the careers and the employment available to them in that area.

They're starting to realize that. I recall one time, when I was with the tribal council, that I tried to advise Manitoba Hydro to train northern people, but that didn't take effect, because they trained 16 people, and all 16 people moved to Alberta because there was better pay there.

So why not train northern people for northern operations and positions? You'll retain them a lot longer than you would southern people.

The same thing goes for housing. A lot of housing could be accommodated if the communities would be allowed to take them over and expand on the money that is being allocated through a formula system, investing it to retain more houses using the CMHC program.

• 1040

We are training people, and we're taking advantage of the training programs there, in northern Manitoba, for these human resources.

In health services, we lack physicians. We lack nurses. As we speak today, nurses are leaving northern Manitoba because Health Canada cannot meet their needs.

The demand on health is increasing, especially with our people—accidents, suicides, violence, infectious diseases, respiratory problems, prenatal, post-natal. Because of diabetes, there are a lot of high-risk prenatals. Those have to be really monitored at all times.

Dental services, they're trying to tell you what to do, where to go, which dentist to go to, and what they're prepared to pay for, those kinds of things.

We're incurring nutritional problems in our areas.

These are professional areas we want to establish. That's the intention of this document, to establish those professions we do need in our community. I've even introduced the idea of alternative medicine. Even doctors kind of shunned that, because it takes away their revenue when you start introducing alternative medicine. I would prefer nurse practitioners, because I find them more receptive. They tend to take the time to spend with their patients to talk about alternative medicine—how they can help themselves, how they can exercise self-discipline to look after their own health. If that can be instilled in a lot of our communities, I think in a lot of them the high demand on health services would be a lot lower.

Going back to education, as I said, if you can improve the systems within our educational systems, I think you'd have a lot of retention. Right now, Fox Lake, where I come from, has had its funds cut, because this government wants to exercise the policy of on-reserve only. If you look at the community of 900 people, and only 175 are going to get assistance, how do you deal with that kind of system? Because a lot of us live in a community called Gillam, and some of them live on reserve. If there are only 79 acres, how can you put 900 people on 79 acres of land? It's ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm just giving you some of the issues we're trying to address to try to establish this kind of thing so we that can improve the economics and socio-economic strategy we have in mind for our people.

In terms of social development, I've always encouraged students who are graduating in social work to specialize in social areas. The education system could use special consultants and counsellors for students who have learning disabilities. The same thing goes for critical mental stress management. That needs to be addressed. A lot of the employers in a lot of areas don't have those things.

That addresses the individual aspects of the whole system.

The same goes for alcohol, drug, and solvent abuse. Solvent abuse is becoming a big issue across Canada. There's a lot of it all over. We lack people. There are a lot of services for the younger generation, from 6 years old to 16, but there are no services for those from 16 to 20 or 30 years old who are solvent abusers. How do you deal with them? There are no services at all in Manitoba. You pretty well have to look to the States, where they have that kind of system. That's costing this government a lot of money. I know there's one place in Ontario where we're also recommending that adults be sent, but that's quite far away. Why not establish services in our area, and establish some career ladders?

There are human resource implications. A lot of the things I've identified we can argue on, but subsidy....and I see that guy left me.

So that's why this is based on what it is. I can't agree with the decrease of the wages here, because I know what we can do. That's what we're going to have to pay if we want to attract people to work in northern Manitoba to put these packages together. I can't agree with coming in with a candid approach of $30,000 per person, because the work required for this thing is going to require a lot of time, maybe from a person who doesn't sleep 24 hours. I'm being facetious here, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. A lot of justification may be required, but it can easily be substantiated, the requirements of the money to make this work.

• 1045

In the end, I was alluding to the Gathering Strength document and procurement policy strategies, which have opened a lot of doors for a lot of our people, but there's a very strict process we have to go through in order to qualify for some of these things. For instance, when we did our bid for the pharmaceutical services, we had to go through a police check. I don't know why. I guess it's part of the process. And we have no problem with that.

The framework agreement initiative in Manitoba seems to be coinciding with the Gathering Strength document. Community planning and participation goes back to what Chief Jerry Primrose was alluding to, where a lot of stuff has to go to the communities to sanction to be able to go ahead with some of the projects.

The methodology was based on one year, because I figure that's the timeframe we would require to establish a lot of this stuff. But it may take two years. The budget could be expanded to a two-year program, if that's okay with a lot of you. I based it on one year because there is going to be a lot of travelling involved, a lot of consultation, to put this whole package together for each and every community we represent under MKO.

And that's it, sir. Thank you very much.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Tom. We'll continue with our question period. Ms. Hardy, followed by Mr. Keddy and Mr. Scott.

[English]

Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): Thank you for coming. I don't have much left to ask.

Basically, I see this as a community development project. You're using economic development to address all of the problems you've just outlined. On the equity part, first nations people are, on the whole, poor. You can't go to the bank until you have some money to go to the bank with, so that you can enter into the projects you need to do, with some backing. You've based this on the Gathering Strength document. This is a chance to make it real. All the initiatives in Gathering Strength you're using to help your communities. That's what I see this as.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: It's a stepping stone.

Ms. Louise Hardy: I'm really curious about housing. You mentioned regulations that were very inhibitive. What are those? That was quite early on.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Let me explain this. I myself was a chief for eight years. We have a funding formula based on band population. Out of that, maybe Fox Lake is likely to have $200,000, based on the formula. So what we try to do is meet with CMHC to see if we can use that funding as a 25% deposit to acquire more houses.

You can't build very many houses with $200,000 nowadays. What we try to do is use that as a 25% deposit towards maybe a $1 million budget so we can build more houses and catch up to our housing needs and requirements in the community. That process has to go through.

There are some requirements by CMHC. There has to a fire-fighting apparatus or an infrastructure in the community, such as water lines and hydrants and not putting in wood stoves, things like that. There are other safety factors that have to be taken into consideration. The other thing is, we do have to pay this money back. It's usually either through welfare or, if you're employed, you have to pay your share towards a percentage of the house. It's like any mortgage.

Ms. Louise Hardy: For the people who live in communities where there's no fire protection, and there aren't the foundations that CMHC wants, what are they doing for housing?

• 1050

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Most bands in that situation have to build in the infrastructure. Let's say we wanted additional houses. Well, we have to put in the sewer and water systems before we can get the housing.

A lot of our money comes from the capital budget, so we can't build houses this year, because for now, we're going to put in an infrastructure so that we can acquire housing next year. In the meantime, the housing is overcrowded.

Ms. Louise Hardy: As well, do you have an overall plan that everyone has agreed to when it comes to forestry?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: It's been changing hands so many times in the provincial government that.... The province really takes hold of that, and they take advantage of the Natural Resources Transfer Act of 1930. So it's pretty hard for first nations to really take advantage of resource development in forestry, especially when they're sitting on the....

For instance, you're a reserve here; this is a forest you can only cut if you want to get into it. But if you want to take advantage of the forest products industry in Manitoba, then you have to get into some kind of working relationship with the provincial government and the forestry industry that's doing that kind of work.

But we do get involved. We do have a working relationship with the natural resources department in Manitoba.

Ms. Louise Hardy: Thank you.

The Chairman: Monsieur Keddy.

Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just looking at your business plan, I want to make a comment on a comment made earlier, about expecting shareholders to work for peanuts.

I think quite a few of us at the table have business backgrounds, and I want to make the statement that most shareholders expect to get rich when they go into business, and they end up working for peanuts—and not necessarily in that order. If you're doing the work, and you're putting a business proposal together, you should expect compensation for that. It's as simple as that. That's how it works. If it's an individual business, that's a different situation.

I have a couple of questions. One of them has been asked already, and that was on education, both high school and secondary. The availability of Internet hookup, you're saying, is not there. I know in northern Quebec there has been some extensive use of Internet hookup, as well as the use of satellite to utilize that Internet.

In the long term, I would expect there should be some financing available there, both federal and provincial. Again, you get into that jurisdictional problem, which is unavoidable. We run into it all the time. However, that is another way to go.

I've also written a note about the problems with housing, and safety as a factor. There are ways around things. If there is one local fire unit in each village, say, there is availability of dry hydrants instead of 40 wet hydrants everywhere.

I'd like some more information on the idea of CMHC not approving wood stoves, because certainly there are a lot of wood stoves that are CMHC-approved.

Chief Jerry Primrose: For some of the houses in our community, for instance, if you have a power failure...and I guess last winter was a prime example. I don't have access to a wood stove. If I have a power failure in northern Manitoba....

Sometimes the priority goes to whoever reports their power failure first. If there is a massive power failure in northern Manitoba, for example, there are only so many people who are available to do the power lines. You are put in the order of when you phone in.

A lot of people in my community don't have wood stoves, and we are trying to develop a plan in terms of what to do if that happens. Where do you put your people, your children, where do you put your elders? You don't realize you have that problem until you're faced with it.

It's kind of interesting, because we grew up in a wood stove environment, and we survived all these years.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but that's one of the conditions that seems to be prevalent in our community in terms of CMHC housing. There have to be some standards into if you can put in a wood stove or not. But I'd have to check into that.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: And I think you probably should, because in terms of the practicality of finding energy sources for heat, I mean, wood is obviously the first choice. There are other types of wood heat. You can use external units and use hot water to force it into multi units. Maybe one external unit can handle four or five units at the same time.

The other issue goes back to the education and the long-term process, say, of that Internet hookup and the availability of it. I think you've made a quantum leap to try to go to University of the North. I'm not saying it won't happen, but meanwhile, at this time, you have a problem you need to address—that is, the immediate concerns of education. You mentioned chemistry labs, where you can do chemistry labs by computer.

So all of that is available. It's a matter of getting it accessible.

Chief Jerry Primrose: It's a costly venture, too.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: There is a cost, but there are also huge dollars being spent on health care, on education, on social services. It's a matter of maybe directing those dollars to where you want them. It's a political problem.

Chief Jerry Primrose: Yes, it is. I can use that as an example, because we went through that process where we gave out the lab for high schools students to do high school programs with the computer. It is a costly venture, but to my mind, for my community, it's worth the long-term investment.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: Yes.

The other thing concerns Manitoba Hydro jobs. Do you have a number, or a percentage? I realize that what you're saying is that they're not training first nations people—or not right now, anyway.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: It's about 1%. I say that because I used to work for Manitoba Hydro, and I can count on my hand how many of us were working back then for Manitoba Hydro.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: And it hasn't really changed?

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: No. There was one person, a general manager at the time, by the name of Stan Gittins, who tried to introduce the idea back in 1971 of training northern people to fill in some of these positions in Manitoba Hydro, but he disappeared all of a sudden.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: That happens.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: So the training program went.

These kinds of things are what we're trying to address. We're making ourselves heard. We do want access to these professions that are available in northern Manitoba. We do need physicians and other professionals in northern Manitoba.

Going back to education, if we can have professors up there, I think we can establish a northern university. Keewatin Community College, whose head office is in The Pas, is having trouble keeping instructors in their schools as well.

The Chairman: Thank you.

[Translation]

Thank you. There are no further questions. We'd like to thank you for coming to testify here in Ottawa and making your demands known to us. Thank you.

Do you have anything to add, Jerry or Tom?

[English]

Chief Jerry Primrose: Sure.

For me, it's been a very interesting experience being here. I think it's the second time I've been here. I had to make a presentation to the standing committee on the northern flood agreement two or three years ago.

For me personally, I find this a very interesting experience, because as an individual, as a chief of a first nation, and as a member of this fine country of ours, I certainly would like to be heard. I have ideas. I mean, every geographic area is different, and has unique problems. As a first nation member, I would be more than glad to take the opportunity to make other presentations, because that's very important to me. I'm not saying I should be the only one to be heard. Certainly there are other people across the country.

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As I said, it's very interesting, and I like to be heard too. I think I have good ideas I can present, and I would be more than glad to come back, if invited.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Merci beaucoup. Tom.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I'd like to ask this question: Now that you have our document, what are you going to do with it? I'm interested in that. Is there going to be a follow-up to this presentation? Will we hear from you?

The Chairman: David.

Mr. David Iftody: Tom, I think it's been important to hear your views. As I think I mentioned, some very important statements that have been made here deal directly with the proposal, but larger questions as well, that this committee is contemplating, as is the House of Commons, under the auspices of a number of pieces of legislation, such as Bill C-49 and Bill C-56, which are before the House now, and the Nisga'a and other issues.

As you probably know, Tom, the question of first nations is quite topical in the House of Commons nowadays, so we'll be looking at this very closely. I'm also aware, and have received phone calls, about the airport strip, following on the tragedy in one of the northern communities.

So with your permission, what I'd like to do is study the document and your presentation, consider it in some more detail, and make representation to the minister about your interventions, with a formal response coming back to you.

I would ask for some time on this. It's not going to happen in the next 10 days—having worked for government, you know how slow it works—but there would be a proper response from the office of the minister to your presentation and your intervention.

In conclusion, thank you very much for a very insightful, thoughtful, and pleasant discussion this morning.

Mr. Tom Nepetaypo: Thank you very much, David, but as you'll notice, the date of the letter is May 14. That shows how patient I am.

I thank the committee for inviting us. It has been very educational for me. Thank you very much.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you.

In conclusion, I'd like to note that our committee has not made any plans to travel to the West this year. We may decide to do so next spring. Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.