SELE Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Thursday, June 12, 2003
| ¿ | 0945 |
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The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)) |
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Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer) |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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M. Paul Crête |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.) |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ) |
| ¿ | 0950 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Serge Marcil (Beauharnois—Salaberry, Lib.) |
| À | 1020 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ) |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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The Chair |
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Mr. André Cyr |
| À | 1025 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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The Chair |
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Mr. André Cyr |
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The Chair |
| À | 1030 |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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Mr. Marcel Proulx |
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Mr. Serge Marcil |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs |
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EVIDENCE
Thursday, June 12, 2003
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¿ 
(0945)
[English]
The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. We are recording and broadcasting, and we have Mr. Crête.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): Good morning. I do not want to repeat everything that was said yesterday, but I would just like to recall the conversations I had outside of the committee. In my view, the problem with the map of eastern Quebec can be resolved separately from the problem of the ridings around Lévis. Based on the suggestion made by Mr. Normand and myself, the problem of the other ridings in the eastern part of Quebec can be resolved without there being a domino effect on the ridings further west, namely Lévis and the others. They are two separate matters.
The basic issue we must resolve and that you clearly identified yesterday is to see whether La Mitis goes with Rimouski—Neigette, which would allow us to have a riding within the 25% variance. We could even include Les Basques if that were necessary so that the variance is lower than 25%. With my proposal, we could keep four ridings in the eastern Quebec region, which end at La Pocatière. I would ask that you review the proposal to see whether it is acceptable or not. As far as I am concerned, I do not think I can present any more arguments than I did yesterday. I would like to know whether you accept the fact that these are two distinct matters and that you will examine them in that order.
[English]
The Chair: I can't speak for all the committee members, but I think we're going to have some problem saying that La Mitis is not part of Matapédia--Matane. The numbers are way off, if I'm not mistaken.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: Why? If you put the RCMs of Côte-de-Gaspé, Haute-Gaspésie, Matane and Matapédia in the riding of Matapédia—Matane, the riding will have 74,648 people.
[English]
The Chair: Matapédia--Matane is already minus 20%. If you take out La Mitis, that's another 20,000 people.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: But I am adding the RCM of Côte-de-Gaspé in my proposal. I am taking part of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine.
[English]
The Chair: No, it's just--
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: I want you to have all the information and clearly understand the different proposals. You can then find a solution.
The Chair: How many people are there in the riding of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine?
Mr. Paul Crête: There are 65,629 people. That is the riding we would want to exempt from the obligation to not exceed 25%. It would include the municipality of Îles-de-la-Madeleine, the RCM Rocher-Percé, the RCM Bonaventure et the RCM Avignon.
The Chair: We could see... André.
Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): As indicated in the chart, the riding in the southern Gaspé peninsula is at -32%, and the riding to the north...
Mr. Paul Crête: The riding to the south is the one that includes the Magdalen Islands, is it not?
Mr. André Cyr: Yes. The riding to the north, or Matapédia—Matane, is at -23.6%, and the next riding...
Mr. Paul Crête: Rimouski—Neigette-et-La Mitis.
Mr. André Cyr: ... is now at -26%. So we have to infringe on the riding of Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Kamouraska—Les Basques.
M. Paul Crête: At a stretch, you could take Les Basques.
Mr. André Cyr: That's good. That gives ridings with variances of -15% and -20% respectively, and we keep the four that are at the current western limit.
Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): I understand what our colleague is saying, but I don't think we should take sides. This proposal will have to be reviewed just as we normally do in committee. We will have to discuss it among ourselves and decide what recommendations to make. It is important for our colleagues to remember that the committee can decide on the recommendation it will make, but it is not the committee that makes the final decision. There is a danger: If we push too hard and the commissioners are finding we do, they will simply dismiss our recommendations outright and you will end up with what you think is currently a mess.
Mr. Paul Crête: I publicly stated that the commission's current proposal was far better than its initial proposal. In my proposal, just like the commission, I follow the principle of respecting the RCMs. The only difference would be that the deficit variance for the riding of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine would be greater than 25%.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: I understand. Basically, the committee can discuss this and make a decision.
The Chair: We should also look at the entire province, because some say that there is a good reason for having a variance of less than 25 per cent. We are not dealing with only one or two exceptions. We were given five or six good reasons, but there is a law.
Mr. Paul Crête: That is not an argument. It may be an argument, but on the map of Quebec, there is only one exception for one riding, which is Îles-de-la-Madeleine.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: In Quebec, on the provincial map.
Mr. Paul Crête: The provincial map for the Quebec elections.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: It is even worse because it only applies to the islands.
Mr. Paul Crête: Yes, but this is because of the number of ridings.
The Chair: All right. Thank you very much.
Mr. Desrochers.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): I have a few brief points of information for you. I know that you have an exceptional case on your hands. After meeting you yesterday afternoon, I studied the entire set of objectives aimed at by the commission and the office. We are told that we should respect all the boundaries of the RCMs. In my proposal, I respect the boundaries of the L'Érable and Lotbinière regional county municipalities. Perhaps the city of Lévis should be taken into account. The point is that the redistribution proposed for Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière has not taken into account the fact that the RCMs of Chutes-de-la-Chaudière and Lévis were merged so that now there is only the city of Lévis. For historical reasons, I used the Chaudière River as a natural boundary. If we take the three municipalities west of the Chaudière River, with a population of 31,900 persons, and if we add Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon, we get a riding with 47,629 persons.
If we took the current city of Lévis, minus the three municipalities west of the Chaudière River, while still respecting the integrity of the city of Lévis, the new riding of Lévis—Bellechasse would have 94,000 voters. This does not affect the changes proposed by my colleagues Paul Crête and Gilbert Normand.
Due to my concern for respecting the integrity of the RCM boundaries, I made some concessions. You wanted a rural section from the Bécancour RCM, which is now annexed to the Louis Plamondon riding. Thus, the territorial integrity of the Bécancour RCM is protected. I also had a part that belonged to Arthabaska and this part was transferred to Richmond—Arthabaska.
Now let us look at the problem with Frontenac—Mégantic. Frontenac—Mégantic has two RCMs in its territory, as does the current riding of Lotbinière—L'Érable; namely the L'Amiante and Le Granit RCMs, comprising 65,000 voters. I also noticed that the ridings of Compton—Stanstead and Beauce were overpopulated. If you take two neighbouring municipalities, you could make the current Frontenac—Mégantic riding into a reasonable one. Let me give you the specific context.
I consulted the people in L'Érable. I do not want to go into historical details, but there is a great deal of disagreement between the people in L'Amiante and those in L'Érable. Thus, the people in L'Érable are not in the least interested in being annexed to L'Amiante; especially as this would be a step backwards to the past for some municipalities. In fact, before the current 1997 map, L'Érable was already merged with Mégantic. I am describing the ideal option.
Let me repeat that I am respecting the integrity of both territories: Lotbinière—L'Érable, and Frontenac—Mégantic, with the RCMs of L'Amiante and Le Granit. I found the solution when I saw that the city of Lévis had too many voters. Now we will have to see how you can give a reasonable population to my colleague from Frontenac—Mégantic.
Thank you.
¿ (0950)
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Proulx.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Have you discussed this with your colleague from Frontenac—Mégantic?
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Binet is teasing me because I will be in his riding. I live in Saint-Ferdinand.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Did you discuss with him the fact that you will be taking the L'Érable RCM?
Mr. Odina Desrochers: I told him that I do not agree.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Does he agree with you that the L'Érable RCM should be in your riding?
Mr. Odina Desrochers: I discussed this with Mr. Binet. He is interested in the riding, but I told him that I would oppose this option.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.
The Chair: Are there any further questions?
Thank you very much.
[English]
Why don't we suspend for a couple of minutes?
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Who are we waiting for?
The Chair: Mr. Marcil will be here after the House opens at 10 o'clock.
¿ (0954)
À (1016)
[Translation]
The Chair: Good morning, Mr. Marcil. We are here to hear your testimony regarding the situation in your riding and the changes that are taking place.
Mr. Serge Marcil (Beauharnois—Salaberry, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Dear colleagues, I told you the reasons why the people in the Beauharnois—Salaberry riding and in the current municipalities and RCMs requested that the electoral district should remain as it is. I am certainly not the only parliamentarian to take this kind of position.
First, the initial proposal that was made and the second one that was tabled, which is contrary to the first, lead us to reflect on the principles used by the commission to change the electoral district of Beauharnois—Salaberry, and on the importance of these principles.
I discussed the issue with my colleagues from Châteauguay and Saint-Jean because we are dealing with more or less the same territory. The basic reasons are quite simple.
First, this electoral district is 85 per cent rural and has an area of 2,500 square kilometres. This is a large territory for a parliamentarian who wants to represent and meet his citizens. It takes an hour and a half to cross the territory by highway, and now they want to enlarge it even more.
I gave you in writing two points explaining why we want to maintain the status quo. The main point is that while we maintain the status quo, this proposal does not change anything at all. We will never get the acceptable maximum in the neighbouring electoral districts. In other words, given the population growth in this region, it will take 10 or 12 years, or even 15 years before Châteauguay and Saint-Jean, which have a smaller population than Beauharnois—Salaberry, can reach their maximum.
The second point deals with the community of interests. You noted that in the Saint-Jean riding, Napierville and Saint-Jacques-le-Mineur were already part of the Saint-Jean provincial riding. I discussed this with the member of Parliament from Saint-Jean. Saint-Jacques-le-Mineur is a suburb of Saint-Jean; thus, it is the same population. It is a case similar to that of Coteau-du-Lac, in Soulanges, which is populated by young people from Valleyfield in the Beauharnois riding. We are dealing with the same families and the same citizens. Saint-Jacques-le-Mineur and Saint-Édouard are extensions of the Saint-Jean community.
Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel currently belong to Châteauguay. The four municipalities you want to insert in the Beauharnois—Salaberry riding are the four municipalities which already belong to Châteauguay. I propose that you keep Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel in Châteauguay and put Saint-Jacques-le-Mineur and Saint-Édouard in Saint-Jean. The two members of Parliament involved in this do not seem to have any objection.
In that way we will be respecting all the legal standards, especially the standard of allowable maximums.
Currently, there are about 30 municipalities in my riding and I must go out to meet the people regularly. They want to add four more, to make a total of 34. There are limits as to how much territory a parliamentarian can cover. Some territories, naturally, cannot be divided—especially the large territories in the northeast and northwest of Quebec—because of the population count, but in southwest Quebec, there are some big towns. Châteauguay and Saint-Jean are large towns. The area of these ridings is very small as compared to a riding like mine. In the upper St. Lawrence, there is a population of nearly 27,000 spread through about 20 municipalities.
These are my arguments. The town councils also want to keep the status quo. If there were a major problem, we could understand this, but in the case at hand, there is no major problem. It is purely a mathematical issue. I understand that the commission wants to re-establish balance among the ridings, and this is to be expected. The same thing is also being done at the provincial level.
À (1020)
However, for the next two elections, there will be no problem with the number of voters in these electoral districts and the allowable maximum, which is +25 per cent, will never be reached; it would be impossible. Thus, on behalf of my constituents, I request that you keep the status quo.
Let me also state that when you add municipalities to an electoral district, you increase the expenses of the parliamentarian and his riding office, and we do not get any supplement from the House of Commons. Our ridings will never fall into the class of ridings which receive a bit more from the House of Commons. Our ridings are not affected by that.
We still have the same budget and the same payroll. We cannot bring in extra personnel because we have no extra money. I cannot open another office if four municipalities are added, because I have no extra money to pay the rent. You are imposing a handicap not only on the member of Parliament, Serge Marcil, but also on future members.
If you have any questions, I am ready to answer you.
The Chair: Mr. Proulx.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Marcil, I gather that you want to keep the status quo. Four municipalities were to be added to Beauharnois—Salaberry, and you suggest that Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel should be assigned to the Châteauguay riding and that Saint-Édouard and Saint-Jacques should be assigned to the Saint-Jean riding.
Mr. Serge Marcil: Yes, you are right.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: What would the figures be then?
Mr. Serge Marcil: The four municipalities which already belong to Châteauguay would be removed. Thus, the Châteauguay electoral district loses a bit of population, which is added to the population of Saint-Jean which is smaller than ours.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is there any community of interests between Saint-Édouard, Saint-Jacques and Saint-Jean?
Mr. Serge Marcil: Those people live in Saint-Jean, where they also do their shopping.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel?
Mr. Serge Marcil: These municipalities are grouped with Châteauguay.
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Marcil, have you discussed this possibility with your two colleagues from the neighbouring ridings, namely Mr. Bachand for the Saint-Jean electoral district and Mr. Lanctôt for Châteauguay?
Mr. Serge Marcil: I spoke to Mr. Lanctôt and Mr. Bachand, who also agree to keep the status quo. Neither Robert nor Claude has any problem with that.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: This is not the status quo for Claude.
Mr. Serge Marcil: No, but in any case, Claude has Saint-Jacques-le-Mineur here; these constituents are his.
Mr. Michel Guimond: I had no reason to doubt Mr. Marcil's statement, but I looked into the matter and I can say that Mr. Marcil's statements are accurate.
The Chair: And what about the figures?
Mr. André Cyr: The Beauharnois—Salaberry electoral district goes down by -4 per cent, Châteauguay goes up by +15 per cent and Saint-Jean goes up by 1.5 per cent.
À (1025)
The Chair: Would it be possible to...
[English]
What's the one between Saint-Rémi and—
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is there no community of interest between Saint-Michel and Saint-Jean?
Mr. Serge Marcil: It is closer to Châteauguay. For them, the main town is Châteauguay.
[English]
The Chair: It's mostly urban, but still....
How many people are there?
[Translation]
Mr. André Cyr: This municipality has a population of 2,500.
[English]
The Chair: So it's not going to make a huge difference.
[Translation]
Mr. Serge Marcil: We must take into consideration the fact that in Châteauguay, there is a community called Kahnawake, which is classed with the non-voting population. These people never vote either in the provincial or the federal elections. Look at my 20-year record of electoral results.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: That is in Châteauguay.
Mr. Serge Marcil: It is in Châteauguay. These people are included in the population, but they never vote. Not even the provincial or federal members of Parliament have anything to do with this community which lives in isolation.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: The problem is that this cannot be used as an argument.
Mr. Serge Marcil: I understand.
[English]
The Chair: Yes, it's minus 25%, including just the voters.
The other option would be to move—
[Translation]
Mr. André Cyr: The population of Saint-Édouard is 1,200 and Saint-Jacques has a population of 1,600.
[English]
The Chair: Okay, there's another proposal.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Proulx: How do we get 4 per cent below the quota? In Beauharnois—Salaberry, it is supposed to be the status quo, and our figures say that currently, this riding is 3.75 per cent below the quota.
Mr. André Cyr: The figure I have here says 3.9 per cent below the quota.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Are these figures based on the 2001 census?
Mr. André Cyr: Yes.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: So, basically, it should be the same thing.
Mr. André Cyr: Yes. My data does not always include the most recent adjustments from Statistics Canada.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: The official numbers will, however. Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: What if we left Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel in your riding, and moved the other two over? Châteauguay would be—
[Translation]
Mr. Serge Marcil: You're acting just like the commission. You're only taking into account mathematical considerations. We have the right to go up to 25 per cent, is that not so? If the variance was 22 per cent or 24 per cent, I might understand.
[English]
The Chair: I know, but I'm just asking.
[Translation]
Mr. Serge Marcil: Don't play the same game as those who made the proposal.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Marcil, you have to understand something. We do not have the authority to make decisions, only to make recommendations. We try to find recommendations that the commission won't turn down. Of course you're right in saying that we can go as far 25 per cent. We could fill up Châteauguay and reach +24.9 per cent, but we know from experience that that will be turned down.
Mr. Serge Marcil: I understand that, but people have to understand that a riding in Montreal or Toronto can just include one neighbourhood. You can drive around it in half an hour in a taxi.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Marcil, with all due respect, I have to tell you that your arguments do not stand up to those who have large ridings. My riding is tiny, yours is tiny and others in Canada are huge.
[English]
The Chair: What are the numbers? I just want to check them.
[Translation]
Mr. André Cyr: If we take the two municipalities, Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel, which are the most heavily populated of the four, the riding of Châteauguay moves to +6.5 per cent and that of Beauharnois—Salaberry to +4.7 per cent.
[English]
The Chair: But we just say that one's....
Where's the office?
[Translation]
Where is the office?
À (1030)
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Are you talking about Mr. Marcil's office?
Mr. Michel Guimond: Where is your office?
Mr. Serge Marcil: In Valleyfield.
The Chair: Where is it?
Mr. Serge Marcil: In Valleyfield, in the riding of Beauharnois—Salaberry. You can see the city on your map about here. Why is Valleyfield not on the map?
Mr. Michel Guimond: It's not a big enough city. It is perhaps a big city for you, but in other areas it's...
Mr. Serge Marcil: Look: there's Châteauguay, Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel, Saint-Édouard and Saint-Jean.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: The regional maps are very badly made.
Mr. Serge Marcil: I'm right here.
Mr. Michel Guimond: You're almost right in the middle.
Mr. Serge Marcil: I'm surprised by the distance between points. Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle is missing, it should be just about here. There's also a municipality missing, as well as, can you imagine, Akwesasne! We also have an Indian reserve. These Aboriginals are the cousins of the others.
The Chair: That's interesting. If you're in Saint-Rémi, you take the highway to Saint-Constant or to Châteauguay to get to Valleyfield. It's the same thing. What is that highway? Is it Saint-Édouard?
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is there a community of interests within Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel?
Mr. Serge Marcil: As I said earlier, downtown for these people is Châteauguay. Saint-Rémi and Saint-Michel do business with Châteauguay. The shopping centres are in Châteauguay. People feel they belong to Châteauguay. The same is true at the provincial level.
The Chair: There are also other roads.
Mr. Serge Marcil: I think it is easier to leave Valleyfield and take the 20 on the other side to get to Longueuil, in Montérégie. As long as the number 30 has not been built, it will be faster than going through the territory on the south shore.
Mr. Michel Guimond: Do you live in Longueuil?
Mr. Serge Marcil: No, I live in Valleyfield, but all the regional offices are in Longueuil. You have to cross all of the Montérégie to get there. They are small roads. There's no highway.
I take the 20 and the Champlain bridge in Montreal and I cross the south shore to get to Longueuil.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's faster?
Mr. Serge Marcil: It's faster than leaving Valleyfield and going to Longueuil by the south shore because they are all small roads.
Mr. Marcel Proulx: Except at rush hour.
Mr. Serge Marcil: I have finished. Thank you for your understanding, dear parliamentary colleagues.
[English]
The Chair: So we'll suspend for a couple of seconds, and then we'll go in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]