FAIT Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Monday, October 28, 2002
| ¹ | 1535 |
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The Chair (Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.)) |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk of the Committee |
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The Chair |
| ¹ | 1540 |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
| ¹ | 1545 |
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Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Duncan |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Duncan |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Duncan |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Duncan |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
| ¹ | 1550 |
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Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance) |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
| ¹ | 1555 |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
| º | 1600 |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian Alliance) |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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Mr. Keith Martin |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| º | 1605 |
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Mr. Keith Martin |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Pat O'Brien |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Keith Martin |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| º | 1610 |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Keith Martin |
| º | 1615 |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Keith Martin |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Francine Lalonde |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade |
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EVIDENCE
Monday, October 28, 2002
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¹ 
(1535)
[Translation]
The Chair (Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.)): The Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade is meeting today to plan its fall agenda.
It will also take into consideration the motion put forward
[English]
by Mr. Martin from the Canadian Alliance if he's here. If he's not here, we don't take this into consideration. It's the same as the motion made by Mr. Robinson, which will be postponed for another time because he mentioned that he will not be here.
Members are asked to refer to the first report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, which met on Thursday, October 24. We'll go through this report, after which the committee will be asked to adopt it with or without amendments.
[Translation]
The Chair: The Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure has tabled its first report.
| Your Sub-Committee met on Thursday, October 24, 2002 and agreed to report as follows: |
| The Sub-Committee has noted the letter of October 10, 2002 from the whips of each party to the Clerk of the House and further notes that until the December adjournment the meeting block of the Committee will be Monday and Wednesday afternoons at 3:30 p.m. Committee meetings taking place at other times may be pre-empted by a Committee assigned to the block. |
[English]
That is, until the end of December. By January or February, and until the end of June, we'll be back on Tuesdays and Thursdays, like we used to be.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Obviously, if we need to...
[English]
The Chair: Yes, but if we need any other slots, we have to request some other slots. That's the normal procedure.
Turning to the second item, it was agreed that Bill C-14, an act providing for controls on the export, import, or transit across Canada of rough diamonds and for a certification scheme for the export of rough diamonds in order to meet Canada's obligations under the Kimberley process, be considered and disposed of on Wednesday, October 30, and that witnesses representing the sponsoring department, non-governmental organizations, and industry be called to appear.
[Translation]
| It was agreed, -That the Committee hold hearings on the situation on Iraq prior to the December adjournment, that the Minister of Foreign Affairs be invited to appear on Thursday, October 31, 2002 and that the Committee staff prepare panels of witnesses and a schedule of hearings. |
Yes, Ms. Lalonde.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: I suggest the report should read, since this was the prevailing spirit: “et que le personnel [...] propose un calendrier d'audiences”.
The Chair: That's correct. That would be the staff's job.
Mr. Harvard.
[English]
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.): At what time on Thursday is the minister appearing?
The Chair: We'll discuss it later on during planning, but he will be here from nine to eleven.
It was agreed that the request of the Falun Dafa Association of Canada to appear before the committee be deferred to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development.
It was agreed that the committee....
Yes, Mr. O'Brien.
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): That should be “referred”, not “deferred”, shouldn't it?
The Chair: Yes, “referred”. Thank you.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: That's okay.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Do we need to amend the French version as well?
The Chair: It should read “soit renvoyé”.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: “Soit référé”.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Or perhaps “déféré”.
The Chair: Yes, “déféré”.
[English]
It was agreed that the committee meet jointly with the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, if available, with a representative of the Middle Powers Initiative. That's tomorrow, October 29, at 3:30.
The Clerk of the Committee: Mr. Chair, that would be just our committee. The Senate committee is not constituted.
The Chair: Okay, thank you.
[Translation]
| It was agreed, - That the Committee hold a public meeting to be followed by a committee hosted lunch, with a delegation from the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China on Monday, November 4, 2002. |
The meeting will be at 11 a.m. and interested committee members may attend the luncheon after. I think we should also send out invitations to members of the executive committee or to the Chair of the Canada-China Association.
[English]
It was agreed that the committee meet jointly with the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food on issues relating to world food supply, and that non-governmental organizations and the director general of the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations be invited to appear on Tuesday, November 5, 2002.
[Translation]
Lastly, the report notes the following:
| The Committee has noted that pursuant to the Order of the House of October 7, 2002, all evidence heard and all briefs submitted in relation to the study of North American Integration and Canada's Role in Light of New Security Challenges during the First Session of the 37th Parliament is before the Committee in the present session. |
| It was agreed, --That a plan, schedule and budget for studying, adopting and producing the report on North American Integration be prepared. |
| Respectfully submitted, |
[English]
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the first report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure?
¹ (1540)
Mr. John Harvard: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Members are now invited to examine the work plan for the remaining part of 2002, particularly with regard to the timeline for ensuring the production and tabling of the North American report before the House adjourns in December.
You have the planned dates for 2002-03. You received at your offices today the distribution of the report on North American integration. I just want to let you know that is still under an embargo. It's not public. It's just for the members so that they have a chance to study it for a week before we start the study in the committee.
[Translation]
As noted in the report, a meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, October 29 with representatives of the Middle Powers Initiative, or MPI. The meeting had originally been planned with members of the Senate. However, since the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee is not ready, we will be meeting with this delegation tomorrow afternoon between 3:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m.
[English]
On Wednesday, October 30—that's this coming Wednesday—at 3:30, we will begin consideration of Bill C-14, an act providing for controls on the export, import, or transit across Canada of rough diamonds and for a certification scheme for the export of rough diamonds in order to meet Canada's obligations under the Kimberley process. That bill was referred to the committee on October 21, 2002.
Mr. Harvard.
Mr. John Harvard: Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, could I just go back for a moment to the meeting tomorrow with the MPI delegation? As the clerk pointed out, the Senate committee has not been reconstituted, but is it possible that senators are going to appear just as they are?
The Chair: Yes, because it was mainly done with Senator Douglas Roche, and he will be present. Senators will come, but not under the umbrella of a committee itself.
Mr. John Harvard: Yes, fine. Thank you.
The Chair: There will be one or two senators.
About Bill C-14, it's going well. You have in front of you the list of witnesses on Bill C-14. It is proposed that we start at 3:30 with the departmental briefing. At 4:15 we will have witnesses: Partnership Africa Canada and Mr. Robinson; Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada; and Diavik Diamond Mines Inc. and BHP Billiton Diamonds Inc, with the latter two requested to appear by mining companies. So there's an hour for the witnesses, and if everything goes well, we should be ready to start clause-by-clause by 5:15.
Understand that at the steering committee I asked every representative of every party if they agreed with that type of schedule, and they said they did not have any problems with that bill. However, I just want to let you know that if there are any special amendments for that bill, we will be unable to finish it on October 30 and it will be postponed until the next week. If there are no amendments, we will be able to go clause by clause on Wednesday afternoon.
Mr. Duncan.
¹ (1545)
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian Alliance): There's every probability that there will be at least one amendment.
The Chair: From your party?
Mr. John Duncan: Yes. It's on private property.
The Chair: It's on private property.
The Clerk: Has it been drafted?
Mr. John Duncan: I don't know. I'm only aware of this because of our caucus meeting last week.
The Chair: Well, it's up to you if you want to come with amendments. If it's just one amendment and the member wants to deal with it at that time, we could possibly deal with it. It would be very good if you could give the amendment to the clerk as soon as possible, though.
Mr. John Duncan: Yes, and my understanding is that Diavik and BHP will be addressing that amendment. I see they're witnesses, so....
The Chair: Well, we should have that amendment.
How long beforehand do you need it, Mr. Clerk?
The Clerk: Mr. Chair, first of all, the member would have to request that the amendment be drafted. It will take a day or two for the legislative drafters to make sure it's drafted properly, translated, and circulated. I rather doubt that we'll have it by Wednesday, but I don't know where we are in the process. My colleague may know.
Mr. John Duncan: I'm hoping it was initiated last week.
The Chair: I just want to warn you that if there are any amendments, we are going to proceed with clause-by-clause the following week. I think we need to be fair, but you are entitled to any amendments you wish.
Now, on Thursday of this week we have the appearance of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The Honourable Bill Graham will be here considering the situation in Iraq, between 9 a.m. and 11 a.m.
On Monday, November 4, at 11 a.m., it's....
Madame Lalonde.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Chairman, it says the meeting is on Wednesday the 30th at 3:30 p.m. However, it doesn't say until what time the meeting is scheduled to last. It would be useful to have that information so that we can make a note of it in our agendas.
The Chair: Until 5:30 p.m.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Thank you.
The Chair: All right? A meeting is scheduled for Monday November 4 with a delegation from the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China, to be followed by a lunch at the parliamentary restaurant.
On Monday November 4 at 3:30 p.m.,
[English]
we're going to start the study of the report on North American integration. There are five chapters. On Monday, I would like the committee to look at part I, chapters 1 and 2. There are seven recommendations about these two chapters.
Madame Lalonde.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Chairman, I didn't have time to read the report since I only received it this morning, but having studied many similar ones, I always like to have time to discuss the report in its entirety. Generally this has proven to be a useful approach because it's enabled us to agree on changes to the report's structure. Therefore, we should plan to...
The Chair: I understand why you're concerned, but I think we'll begin with Part I on Monday November 4. We'll take an overall look at the report. Members will have had a week to look at it and if they are not satisfied, changes can always be made then. We've set aside two hours for Chapters 1 and 2 and we will confine ourselves to seven recommendations. To consider 15 or 20 recommendations would be too much for the first day. We need to agree on our working agenda and focus on the first seven recommendations.
Agreed?
Ms. Francine Lalonde: That's fine with me. That just needed to be clarified.
[English]
The Chair: On Tuesday, November 5, at 9 a.m. there will be a World Food Day joint meeting with the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agrifood. CIDA has requested that Mr. James Morris, the executive director of the World Food Programme and the United Nations Secretary General's special envoy to southern Africa, attend.
[Translation]
The Clerk has just informed me that the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food is not likely to have held an organization meeting by November 9. The committee hasn't yet been struck and that's still likely to be the case next week.
¹ (1550)
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Some opposition parties have not yet submitted the names of their nominees to these committees.
[English]
The Chair: If by this coming Wednesday we haven't got to clause-by-clause on Bill C-14, we will do it on Tuesday, November 5, after the meeting with Mr. Morris.
On Wednesday, November 6, we will deal with part II, chapter 3, recommendations 8 to 14 of our study. On Monday, November 18, at 3:30 p.m., there will be the first panel on the Iraq question. On Wednesday, November 20, at 3:30....
Mr. Obhrai.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): What is the Iraq question?
Ms. Francine Lalonde: You didn't hear about it? So you will be informed.
The Chair: Mr. Obhrai, I suggest that if you come when the minister is here on Thursday, you'll know a little bit more about Iraq and you'll know about the question.
Thank you.
Now, regarding Iraq, if members have any suggestions for witnesses, please tell the clerk.
Mr. Clerk.
The Clerk: Mr. Chairman, we've received requests from various members of the public who are interested in the whole question. The committee will probably have to decide eventually whether it wishes to hear from the public. The decision of the committee to date, of course, is to hear from experts only, not members of the public.
[Translation]
The Chair: Mr. Bergeron.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Obviously, I think now is not the time to debate this matter. However, if you were to ask me here and now what I think, I would say that it's important to get the public's read on this issue.
The Chair: Thank you for your comments.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: I'm talking about the question of Iraq.
The Chair: Thank you.
On Wednesday November 20 at 3:30 p.m., we'll turn our attention to recommendations 15 through 32 in Chapter 4, Part II.
[English]
On Monday, November 25, at 3:30, we will look at part II, chapter 5, recommendations 33 to 39, and adoption of the report. During the week of November 25 there will be editing and proofreading of the report.
On Wednesday, November 27--not on November 20, as written in French--we will have the second panel on the Iraq... period.
Thursday, November 20, is the deadline for sending complementary dissenting opinions to the clerk regarding the North American integration report. The week of December 2 is the printing of the North American integration report. The week of December 9 is the tabling and distributing of the North American integration report.
Friday, December 13, is the last scheduled sitting day of December. That's it.
Ms. Carroll.
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): I'm trying to read everything that comes here now and we didn't have before the meeting, so it's a fast read, to make sure I don't hold up the committee. That said, in reference to the second panel on the Iraq question, has that panel been struck? Do we know who the people are?
The Chair: No, it has not been struck yet.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: At what point are we able to make suggestions?
The Chair: That is what I just said. If any member would like to suggest witnesses, they are ready to receive them.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: Are you looking at academics and others in this regard? How broad are you going here?
The Chair: It depends on the meeting we have with the minister this coming Thursday. It depends on the list of witnesses you are going to send to the clerk. It could be one or two meetings, but it needs to be expanded. It will just be after the House comes back at the end of January or February.
Mr. Harvard.
¹ (1555)
Mr. John Harvard: I'm hoping we can finish this before Christmas. I think that would put some burden on the staff, in that I they will have to do some bunching of the witnesses. What I'm really getting to, Mr. Chairman, is that I don't think we're going to be able to afford a lot of repeat statements from witnesses. There will be witnesses with similar views, and I think what we'll have to do is just catch a wide section of opinion on the issue and be satisfied with that. We won't be able to afford hearing six different witnesses on the same particular position. I know that will be difficult on the staff, but I think they will have to group it that way.
The Chair: Fine.
Mr. Assadourian.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Are we on “other items” now?
The Chair: No, we are just going to finish the planning.
I need a motion. Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the work plan for the period of the adjournment of the House in December?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Mr. Assadourian now.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Thank you very much.
Mr. Chairman, I'm sure everybody on this committee knows and most Canadians know about the situation in the Middle East and Iraq, as our colleague mentioned. As you know, three or four years ago the Prime Minister had a delegation to the Middle East. Many members of this House went to the Middle East on behalf of the Canada-Israel committee or on behalf of Canada Arab groups. I don't think--and correct me if I'm wrong--any delegation from the foreign affairs committee officially went to the Middle East to discuss and study the issues concerning Middle East countries. Maybe it would be a good idea for next year to consider such an option, Mr. Chairman, and as the foreign affairs committee of the House of Commons, to go there and meet the public and have our own input with the Middle East governments rather than with special interest groups, on the Jewish side, the Arab side, or whatever the case may be. I think we, as members of the foreign affairs committee, must have our own point of view on this issue, rather than having a partisan point of view paid for by the Jewish lobby, the Arab lobby, or whatever the case may be.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Assadourian.
Mr. O'Brien.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Mr. Chairman, I have a question on other items as well. On the proposed appearance of Mr. Netanyahu, has the committee agreed to hear him, or is that for consideration?
Mr. John Harvard: We don't even know when he's coming, if at all.
The Chair: That's why when we discussed it in the steering committee... We don't know if he's coming. If he's coming we're going to consider this. We'll see if he's coming.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: I just want to make the point that I would certainly be happy to hear Mr. Netanyahu's views at any time, but I would be concerned in what context we would be hearing him. Are we only hearing from Mr. Netanyahu, or are we hearing from leaders past or present with other points of view? I would be concerned if we did any one leader from the Middle East, quite frankly, in isolation.
Mr. John Harvard: Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Well, I want to flag that as a dangerous bridge now.
The Chair: You understand, this is what I request of Mr. Day. We agree with Mr. Day. He is not here today.
Right now we don't even know if he's coming. It's irrelevant, in a certain way. We're going to take into consideration your remarks about this one.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Just a word of caution.
The Chair: Madame Lalonde and then Mr. Assadourian.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Before I get to that subject, I would like to talk about a specific matter. According to the planning dates, the committee is scheduled to review Part II, Chapter 4 on Wednesday November 20 at 3:30 p.m. However, on that very same day and at the very same time, the committee is slated to hear from the second panel on the Iraqi question.
The Chair: When I read the text in English, I merely pointed out that there was a mistake in the French and that our meeting with the panel on Iraq was in fact scheduled for 3:30 p.m. on November 27.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Then the meeting isn't on the 20th.
The Chair: It's on the 27th; I noted that fact when I read the report.
º (1600)
Ms. Francine Lalonde: I didn't catch that.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: There's an additional mistake. The reference is to Thursday November 27. The correct date is Thursday the 28th.
The Chair: Yes, as I mentioned, the meeting is scheduled for the 28th. We'll ask the Clerk to be more careful with the dates.
M. Assadourian.
[English]
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chairman, do you want me to put my proposal in writing? How do you want me to handle this? Shall I put a motion in for the list with the parliamentary delegation here, or will you follow it up next year?
The Chair: We're going to follow it up next year.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: So I don't have to put in a motion in written form requesting to do this.
The Chair: No, not at all.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Okay. Thanks.
The Chair: On the other items, you have the item of the Bay of Fundy fishing ground U.S.-Canada dispute. It was a letter from Mr. Casey. Mr. Casey is not here.
Item number three, a motion by Mr. Robinson on Armenia, received on October 4, 2002. He's not here.
Ms. Marlene Jennings: What was it?
The Chair: Genocide.
Then we have a motion by Mr. Keith Martin, which was received on October 21, 2002.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: Yes.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Motion number three, Robinson on Armenia. It's not on Armenia. It's Armenian genocide, not Armenia.
The Chair: Yes, that's what I just answered back to Ms. Jennings, Armenian genocide.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Okay.
The Chair: Now we have the motion of Mr. Martin.
Mr. Martin, welcome. Are you ready to talk about your motion?
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian Alliance): The motion refers to the situation--
Mr. John Harvard: Do we have a copy of it? Okay.
Mr. Keith Martin: The motion refers to the situation taking place in Zimbabwe right now and deals with the Prime Minister's African agenda. It calls on us to examine the African fund announced in the December 2001 budget and call witnesses to examine the priorities of the government with respect to the fund in the hope that we can find out what the Prime Minister wants to do with that African agenda with the fund that's been announced and make constructive inputs into that.
I think right now the continent is in a very critical moment and it's the Prime Minister's intention to make Africa one of the priorities for his agenda.
I think it would be really important for the committee to have some hearings, call some witnesses, and determine where this fund is going so we can make some constructive inputs into it to address some of the crises taking place on the continent, specifically with respect to the Sudan, eastern Congo, the situation in Sierra Leone, the crisis in Angola--and if we don't engage that country within the next six months there is a huge chance that country will fracture and become another failed state along the lines of Somalia--and also, of course, the situation in Zimbabwe.
So there are multiple challenges in the region, and I'm asking for this committee, if it chooses to, to examine the Africa fund and make some constructive inputs into the government's agenda along those lines.
The Chair: Comments? Mrs. Jennings?
[Translation]
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for your motion, Mr. Martin. In my view, it's entirely appropriate for the Foreign Affairs Committee to examine the Africa Fund. The problem, as I see it, is that the motion is somewhat too specific in that it names all of the witnesses who should be called to testify. Since the Minister of International Cooperation oversees the Africa Fund, I would suggest the motion reads: “...to invite witnesses, including the Minister of International Cooperation”. That wording would not be restrictive. Judging from how things go, we might decide that we indeed need to hear from witnesses representing some of the groups on your list, but not from others. Instead of naming them specifically, we could mention the minister responsible for the Fund and any other witness or witnesses deemed appropriate.
º (1605)
[English]
Mr. Keith Martin: That would be perfectly fine with me.
The Chair: Mr. Harvard.
[Translation]
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: I'm sorry, but I have one more thing I'd like to say. You may not have realized it since you just arrived, but the committee has a very full schedule until the end of the session. Therefore, even if the committee were to adopt your motion, it wouldn't get to this before 2003. I do however, consider this to be an appropriate motion. I apologize for the interruption.
The Chair:Mr. Harvard.
[English]
Mr. John Harvard: I'm disinclined to support the motion at this particular juncture. We've just gone through a process of setting up our schedule for the next couple of months, and we don't know at this particular point how well we're going to do over the next six weeks. I would prefer to lay this over until February and we can deal with it perhaps then. As I say, I just don't think this is the time to move on this motion.
[Translation]
The Chair: Ms. Lalonde.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: This is an important question given the amount of time spent on the report leading up to Kananaskis. I would look upon this as a follow up. Holding hearings into the political situation in Africa would be a start.
I would point out to Keith that we could have discussed the Congo, which is also in a crisis situation along with Rwanda, Burundi and Uganda. The situation in Africa is terrible. It's not that we're not interested, it's just that in the short term, we can follow up on the initiatives taken in Kananaskis and on what the government intends to do. It's important for us to know what the government intends to do with the $500 million earmarked for this purpose because we have no idea where the money will be spent. Therefore, I would be amenable to holding a meeting on the subject and we can discuss the Africa question at a later date. This is different, however. I'd like us to follow up on the Africa Fund.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. O'Brien.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: I don't know if you want a motion, or if there's consensus, Mr. Chairman. We all agree on the importance of this question and we would like to look at it as an item of future business. I think we should agree to look at it in future, but we certainly couldn't schedule it now.
The Chair: Mr. Martin.
Mr. Keith Martin: I just want to close by drawing to the committee's attention that I put this forward due to the degree of urgency. There are at least three situations of genocidal proportions taking place on the continent right now. One is in the Sudan, one is in the eastern Congo, and the other is in southern Africa. The numbers of people who are going to be killed in the next six months will amount to over a million in each of those areas. That's the objective evidence coming out of the continent right now.
So that's the reason why I put this down. It is a matter of magnitude, and it's a matter of the sheer numbers of people who are going to be murdered in the next six months. And they will, in some cases, amount to a few million people. You will hear more about that with Mr. Morris, with 13 million people at risk because of a politically engineered famine in southern Africa.
Hopefully we'll also hear more about the situation in eastern Congo, where, as Madam Lalonde mentioned, we have a genocide that is about to happen maybe in the next weeks, maybe less. That's why I put this on the table today.
The Chair: We're going to go Monsieur Bergeron, Madame Jennings, and Monsieur O'Brien, and then we'll resume with Mr. Cotler.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Another way of dealing with Mr. Martin's request, which I feel is quite legitimate, would be to simply refer the matter to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International development. The subcommittee members could get down to work immediately and there would be no need for us to postpone the start of our work, given how urgent and important the matter is, as Mr. Martin noted a few moments ago.
º (1610)
The Chair: Mrs. Jennings.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: The problem is that Mr. Martin is raising two issues at once. First, we have the question of the Africa Fund which won't necessarily affect the crisis situations Mr. Martin has just described to us. If Mr. Martin wants the committee to consider civil wars and genocide, then that's a human rights issue. Then I'd have no problem deferring this matter to the subcommittee.
However, his motion on the Africa Fund bears no direct relation to the situation he just described. I deplore his attempt to establish a connection between the two. The Africa Fund promotes good government and economic development in Africa. That's the objective. We want to know how the Government of Canada plans to use this fund and whether it has any concrete initiatives in the works.
On the subject of human rights violations in Africa, I agree with you that this is a pressing matter, but it does not tie in directly with the Africa Fund. Therefore, if you have another motion pertaining to these particular crises, I'd be happy to take it into consideration and to go along with Mr. Bergeron's excellent suggestion to defer this matter to the subcommittee on human rights and international development.
For the moment, however, we're debating your motion on the Africa Fund. There's appears to be a general consensus that we shouldn't specify witness names, with the exception of the Minister of International Cooperation who oversees the fund, and that the review of the fund should not be undertaken before February 2003, given the heavy work schedule that has just been approved for the committee until December 13.
[English]
The Chair: Monsieur Assadourian, followed by Monsieur Cotler, and then I'll try to propose something to you.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: I don't have anything, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Monsieur Cotler.
Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I share the views on the urgency of the African situation. I think we are on the threshold of a humanitarian catastrophe resulting from the killing fields in the Congo and Sudan, resulting also from the famine in southern Africa. Also, there is the issue of the pandemic of AIDS.
I think the issue should be referred to the subcommittee on human rights, because they can begin to address it with the urgency it warrants. I think we have to sound the alarm, because what is happening in the Congo, for example, is not even on the political radar screen. This is something we must address urgently with the depth it deserves.
In the matter of the African fund, I think that could at some point be treated here, or even by the subcommittee, because it is an issue of prioritizing our approach. I do think that the human rights situation has to be addressed with a matter of great urgency.
The Chair: I have something to propose to you. First of all, the notice of motion by Mr. Martin was regarding the African funds. The only thing I can suggest to you--if we can find them--is we're going to try to find one date to have the minister and the director of CIDA. There's a new policy regarding CIDA, and with one session, if it's possible to convene everyone, we could have these people talking to us about what was done and where we're going regarding the African funds. That will be your first motion.
Now, I don't have any motion regarding what we discussed about the genocide, but if there's unanimous consent here in the room regarding that, I will accept to have a motion and that it be deferred to the subcommittee on human rights.
Mr. Keith Martin: May I put a motion forward then?
º (1615)
The Chair: We'll finish the first motion, your motion that we try to have the minister and the director regarding CIDA. That's the first motion. Agreed?
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to point out that we have an opening on December 4 and that we could...
The Chair: We'll look at the dates. I can't give you a specific date today.
[English]
Now, you get a second motion regarding genocide. Do I have unanimous consent that Mr. Martin put a motion regarding the genocide, regarding the African continent?
Mr. Keith Martin: The motion, Monsieur le président, would be that the subcommittee urgently review the impending genocides in various areas in the continent of Africa, examine this, and come up with a series of solutions, recommendations to address the crises.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: On the last item, I received a letter from RCPL, Rassemblement Canadien pour le Liban. You all received this. They want to come in front of the committee. If you all agree, their demand should be referred to the subcommittee on human rights, although it's regarding Lebanon--if you all agree.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Clerk: It was circulated in the offices, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: It's referred. You'll receive it:
“I'm writing to you on behalf of RCPL, a Canadian non-profit organization. Our main objectives are mainly defending human rights and civil liberties in Lebanon and the Middle East, as well as promoting democratic principles and values. In May 2002 we sent a letter...”
The Clerk: It was dated earlier.
The Chair: You received it at your offices a while back, asking you for the opportunity to present their organization as well their study about human rights. I would like to refer it to the subcommittee on human rights.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Fine, agreed. Anything else?
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: What about Amnesty International?
The Chair: No, it hasn't been distributed.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: A list of everything that has been received since the start of the session has been drawn up and it's not there.
The Chair: We'll get another copy to you.
Ms. Francine Lalonde: The parliamentary secretary doesn't have a copy either.
[English]
Ms. Aileen Carroll: (Inaudible--Editor)
The Chair: Anything else? Any comments?
Monsieur Bergeron.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: We've received a letter from Doctors Without Borders about an information session on a mission that ha just returned from Israel and Palestine. I believe all committee members are invited to attend. However, perhaps several of us should attend to hear about the experiences of the people who took part in the mission.
The Chair: Thank you. We are adjourned.