FAIT Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Monday, October 21, 2002
| ¹ | 1535 |
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The Clerk of the Committee |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
| ¹ | 1550 |
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The Chair (Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.)) |
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Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, Canadian Alliance) |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ) |
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The Chair |
| ¹ | 1555 |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
| º | 1600 |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
| º | 1605 |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
| º | 1610 |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| º | 1615 |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Bill Casey |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
| º | 1620 |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
| º | 1625 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Svend Robinson |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Antoine Dubé |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Stockwell Day |
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The Chair |
| º | 1630 |
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Mr. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade |
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EVIDENCE
Monday, October 21, 2002
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¹ 
(1535)
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members, I see a quorum.
[Translation]
Pursuant to Standing Order 106 (1) and (2), our first order of business in the election of a Chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Monsieur le greffier, I would like to nominate Mr. Bernard Patry as chair of our committee.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare Mr. Patry the duly elected chair of the committee and invite him to take the chair.
¹ (1540)
¹ (1550)
[Translation]
The Chair (Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.)): Thank you very much for electing me to the Chair. I greatly appreciate your show of support.
[English]
Thank you very much.
Now we're going to move to the election of two vice-chairs, one from the government side and one from the opposition side. We'll deal with the government side first.
Mr. Price.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I would like to propose the Honourable Diane Marleau as vice-chair of this committee.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Now from the opposition. Mr. Sorenson.
Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate you on your overwhelming victory and wish you all the best.
I would like to nominate Stockwell Day as vice-chair.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): I second the nomination.
The Chair: We don't need a seconder.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Mr. Day, do you have a point?
Mr. Stockwell Day (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Canadian Alliance): I'd like to ask for unanimous consent for a motion related to--
The Chair: First, we're going to deal with the routine motions. We'll get to that afterwards.
You have all received the list of routine motions. The first routine motion is that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be composed of the chair, the vice-chairs, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, one Bloc Québécois member, one New Democratic Party member, one Progressive Conservative Party member, and two additional Liberal Party members.
Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Chairman, on an initial review of the routine motions, I see they appear to be continuing the practices of the previous committee. If you could indicate that is the case, that may speed up the process.
The Chair: That is the case. All the motions in front of us are the same ones that were passed in the previous session.
We need a mover for this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): I have another motion for you.
The Chair: Fine. You can move it once we're done with these motions.
¹ (1555)
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Fine then.
The Chair: Do we have a mover for the motion respecting the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure?
Mr. David Price: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair: Unanimous consent?
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: The motion respecting research officers reads as follows:
| That the Committee retain the services of one or more research officers from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the Committee in its work, at the discretion of the Chair. |
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.): I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair:
Quorum for receiving evidence:
| That the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and publish evidence when a quorum is not present provided that at least three members are present, including a member of the Opposition. |
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Chair: The motion respecting the time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses reads as follows:
| That witnesses be given ten (10) minutes for their opening statement and, that during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated ten (10) minutes for the first questioner of each party when a Minister appears before the Committee and five (5) minutes be allocated to each subsequent questioner alternating between opposition and government parties, at the discretion of the Chair. |
Do I have a mover for this motion?
Mr. Dubé.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: I note that the previous committee had agreed to allowing first one question from a member of the Official Opposition, and then a question from a member of the Bloc Québécois. I don't see anything similar in this committee's procedural rules.
The Chair: It's left to the Chair to exercise his discretion. That's always been the case, and it will continue to be the case. The first questioner was a member of the Official Opposition, followed by a member of the Bloc Québécois, then by a government member, then by a member of the New Democratic Party, then back to a government member, then to a member of the Progressive Conservative Party, then back to a government member.
That will continue to be the order followed.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Then you intend to continue proceeding in this manner.
The Chair: Yes indeed. That's what was done in the past.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Harvard.
[English]
Mr. John Harvard: Were you referring to the five-minute rounds or the ten-minute rounds in that regard?
The Chair: It's ten-minute rounds when we have a minister and five-minute rounds for regular witnesses, without a minister.
Mr. John Harvard: With regard to the ten-minute rounds when the minister is here, do you take all four opposition parties before you go to the Liberals?
The Chair: It depends on whether the minister is coming for half an hour or an hour. If it's for a minimum of an hour, we'll do ten minutes for the official opposition, ten minutes for a second party, and then ten minutes for the Liberals. Then we'll go five, five, and five, as we usually do. It's the same as in the previous year. There isn't any change.
Mr. Obhrai.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Chairman, I understand that you are telling us we will get ten minutes in recognition of our strength compared to the other opposition parties. Is that what you are saying?
The Chair: I don't catch what you mean. You are going to get ten minutes to start with a witness when it's a minister. If it's not a minister but a regular witness, you are going to get five minutes. But you understand that if we have just three members to listen to a witness, you could get ten.
It all depends on whether we have eighteen or five members. It's going to be different at that time. We're going to fix it among ourselves at that time. But the regular motion is that you have ten minutes to start with. All opposition members have ten minutes, including the answer, for a minister. If it's a regular witness, though, it's five minutes. It has always been that way.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: We were just thinking about the strength of the parties in the House of Commons. You get more and we get less.
The Chair: We never get more than you.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: We were just trying to figure that out. I think it will be fine.
The Chair: Thank you.
Do we have a mover for that one?
Mr. John Harvard: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Turning to witness expenses, it's proposed that, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses, not exceeding two representatives per organization.
Do I have a mover?
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Can I ask a short question?
The Chair: I'll go to Mr. Robinson first, and then to you, Mr. Assadourian.
Mr. Svend Robinson: I wonder whether we should put a little bit of discretion into this. As the motion is now worded, it would basically be required that they be reimbursed if they requested it. I think there are circumstances in which that may not be appropriate. If the Canadian Bankers Association comes before the committee and asks for reimbursement.... I know they struggle to survive, but they probably do okay.
If we said, “That, if requested, and upon agreement of the committee, reasonable travel...” and so on, then in that way we would be in a position to—
The Chair: But I think the motion by itself says that it's if it were requested.
First of all, we don't have the Canadian Bankers Association in front of our committee that many times. Secondly, I don't think they will ask for a reimbursement for their travel expenses.
Mr. Svend Robinson: I just think there should be some discretion in this.
The Chair: Well, I think the discretion is there. It's if it's requested. I think the resolution is fair just as it is written.
Mr. Assadourian.
º (1600)
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chair, I was just going to ask about the words “reasonable travel”. Is that for someone who comes from Vancouver in economy class? Is that “reasonable”?
The Chair: It's always economy class if you're coming from Vancouver.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Oh, okay.
The Chair: It's the same as it is for MPs.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Too bad. I tried.
The Chair: Monsieur Dubé.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé: As I wasn't here last time, I inquired about what was done. I see here that a new element has been incorporated. Perhaps this might serve to reassure my NDP colleague Mr. Robinson. The following had been added: “Pursuant to the rules established by the Board of Internal Economy and at the request...”. and so forth. Why are we now deleting this reference to established rules of procedure?
The Chair: Committees always reimburse expenses in accordance with the rules set down by the Board of Internal Economy. We cannot make a request that goes against what the Board allows. A witness who travels to Ottawa may request a per diem. Thisper diemcorresponds to the amount allotted to witnesses in Ottawa. A witness is free to spend $100 on lunch, but he won't be reimbursed the full amount. The Board of Internal Economy rules apply. That's the reason. It's not mandatory.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Why not put this in writing?
The Chair: Because it's...
Mr. Antoine Dubé: It would be clearer if it were in writing.
The Chair: That's how it is. According to our clerk, it's simply a matter of ensuring consistent practices in all committees. Other committees will adopt the same rules of procedure. The same rules apply to everyone.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: You can understand why opposition members might be suspicious.
The Chair: You're very suspicious, Mr. Dubé.
Do I have a mover for this motion?
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Let's just say I'm being cautious.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Assadourian.
[English]
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Do potential witnesses receive a copy of the reimbursements from the clerk? At lunch it's so much, and at breakfast.... They see that before they come here, so they know what to expect, right?
The Chair: Yes, of course.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Thank you.
The Chair: May I have a mover, please?
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Chair: Working meals:
| That when instructed by the Chair, the Clerk of the Committee be authorized to make the necessary arrangements to provide for working meals for the Committee and its Sub-Committee. |
Do I have a mover for this motion?
[English]
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Hot, healthy ones.
The Chair: That's a change. Thank you.
Monsieur Dubé.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé: If I compare it with the previous version, I see that...Your answer might be the same, but that's not what the previous motion read. It said: “That the Committee authorize the Chair to make, in concert with the clerk...”. Now the Clerk has no say in the matter.
The Chair: I won't take it upon myself to order meals. You can rest assured that I will leave that up to the Clerk.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Fine.
The Chair: Do I have a mover for the motion? No one is interested in meals?
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair: The next one is:
| That for the purpose of receiving foreign delegations in Committee, the Committee divide into two groups to be assigned to meet alternately with visiting delegations, as established in the list to be prepared by the Clerk of the Committee. |
I need a mover.
Mr. John Harvard: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Chair: The motion respecting gifts for foreign delegations reads as follows:
| That the Committee be authorized to purchase gifts to be presented to foreign hosts while travelling and as well to present from time to time when visited by foreign delegations in Ottawa. |
Mr. Svend Robinson: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair: The next concerns notice of new business:
| That, unless there is unanimous consent, twenty-four hours notice be given to the Members of the Committee before any new item of business be considered by the Committee. |
Mr. David Price: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Chair: Creation of Sub-Committee on Human Rights and International Development:
| That pursuant to Standing Orders 108(1) and 108(2), a Sub-Committee on Human Rights and International Development... |
[English]
An hon. member: Dispense.
The Chair: Dispense.
Oui, Monsieur Dubé.
º (1605)
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé: It's not that I have any objections, but since I am a member of the Sub-Committee, I would like to raise one issue at this time. I don't wish to get into any kind of discussion, but personally, I don't think the main committee is assigning enough responsibility to the sub-committee. We spent a great deal of time on Colombia and we undertook to... I'm just speaking as a Member who would like to work harder.
The Chair: Your comments are duly noted, Mr. Dubé. All I can tell you is that the steering committee will meet and the Bloc Québécois is represented on the committee. Therefore, you should speak to that individual.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: I've already done that.
The Chair: I see. You can tell him that you would like to have more to do. I'm delighted that you want to take on more work.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: It's just that we are seeing cases of human rights violations everywhere, not just in one country in particular. As a rule, the Sub-Committee must wait to receive a mandate from the main committee. I wish it had more flexibility when it comes to such matters.
The Chair: I understand.
Mr. Day.
[English]
Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Chairman, could you inform us as to how the chair of that subcommittee is chosen?
The Chair: The chair will be chosen now. The previous one was Ms. Beth Phinney.
Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Mr. Chairman, on that point, I suggest it may require formal amendment, and if it does, I would be prepared to move that it be chaired by a member to be elected by the subcommittee established to inquire into matters. In other words, instead of this committee appointing the chair of the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development, and also, I see, the chair of the Subcommittee on International Trade, I would suggest that those subcommittees elect their own chairs.
The Chair: Are there any comments regarding Mr. Robinson's comments?
Mr. Day.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Chairman, is that being proposed as a motion?
Mr. Svend Robinson: Yes.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Would the member who proposed that be willing to add a friendly amendment that it be by secret ballot?
Mr. Svend Robinson: I personally have no problem with that.
The Chair: Are there any comments?
Mr. Assadourian.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: I think, Mr. Chairman, House of Commons committees are extensions of the House of Commons itself. The rules we have in the House of Commons are that we can't have a secret ballot, so we can't have a secret ballot here either. We have to follow the procedures of the House. We can't have our own procedure here in the committee and another procedure in the House of Commons. We are all House of Commons members. We have to stick with the principle of the open door.
The Chair: Mr. Harvard, and then Mr. Robinson.
Mr. John Harvard: I would suggest that we go one step at a time, and the first step is to allow the subcommittee to pick its own chairperson. I would agree to that, but not to the second proposal.
The Chair: Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Mr. Chairman, I would hope we could agree to allow the subcommittees to elect their own chairs, particularly in view of the fact that the members of those subcommittees have worked together quite extensively since the last election. I think it is appropriate that this be done. I, frankly, would have hoped that be done in the first round. It wasn't, but in this instance I believe it is appropriate, and I would urge members of the committee to support the amendment.
[Translation]
The Chair: Mr. Dubé.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: I don't disagree with my NDP colleague, but speaking pragmatically, I realize it makes no difference. It's still the Liberal Party that appoints the Committee Chair.
I lost my train of thought so I'll say no more.
[English]
The Chair: Any other comments?
We have a motion. The motion was amended by--
Mr. John Harvard: Was it a friendly amendment?
Mr. Svend Robinson: It was a subamendment. Perhaps we might vote on the subamendment first. I support it.
The Chair: Before we can go to an amendment or a subamendment, I need to get a name for the chair, because if we don't get any name, we cannot be chaired.
Mr. Svend Robinson: No, Mr. Chairman, with respect, the motion is an amendment that the chair be a member elected by the subcommittee.
The Chair: That's your amendment.
Mr. Svend Robinson: That's right, yes.
Mr. John Harvard: In other words, leave the work of picking the chairman to the subcommittee, not have it done by this committee.
The Chair: Because there was a blank, it cannot be an amendment, it's the motion itself, and the motion is read. Do you want to read it back, please, Mr. Clerk?
The Clerk:
It reads as follows:
| That pursuant to Standing Orders 108(1) and 108(2), a Sub-Committee on Human Rights and International Development, to be chaired by a member to be elected by the Sub-Committee, be established.... |
The Chair: That's the motion. Are there any comments regarding that motion? It means we're not going to name the person here, it's going to be done by the nine members of the subcommittee.
º (1610)
Ms. Aileen Carroll: You're going to have a vote on that?
The Chair: We're going to have a vote if you want a vote. If you don't request a vote--
Mr. John Harvard: We have to pass this motion.
The Chair: That's the motion.
Mr. John Harvard: As amended.
The Chair: There's no amendment; that's what I explained. If there were no blank, that would be an amendment, but because there was a blank, the motion is a motion. We fill in the blank with the words of Mr. Robinson.
Ms. Carroll.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: Mr. Chair, I would ask for a vote on that.
The Chair: You ask for a vote on that.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: I'm asking for a vote on the name.
The Chair: So you're opposed to that motion as it is.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: All those in favour, all those opposed--that's the next--
The Chair: We'll put it to the vote, then.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Now we have the creation of a subcommittee on--
Mr. Stockwell Day: How was my question of a subamendment disposed of, that the selection of the chair of the subcommittee be done by secret ballot?
The Chair: Okay. The proposal is that the election of the chair by the subcommittee be done by secret ballot. All in favour of that.
(Motion negatived)
Mr. Svend Robinson: Should we request a recorded vote? We could request a recorded vote.
An hon. member: No, too late.
Mr. Svend Robinson: It's not too late. We can request a recorded vote.
The Chair: The count was eight to seven.
Mr. Svend Robinson: I'm requesting a recorded vote on that.
An hon. member: It was very close. It might have been a tie.
The Chair: It was eight to seven.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: Go ahead, Mr. Dubé.
Mr. Antoine Dubé:I missed a bit of the translation and that explains why I did not vote. I would just like to say that I would have voted in favour of this motion.
[English]
Mr. Svend Robinson: But I'm asking for a recorded vote, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: You abstained.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé: No, I missed my chance to vote. I just wanted you to know that otherwise I would have voted in favour of the motion.
º (1615)
[English]
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: He abstained the first time. Now he's going to change his vote.
The Chair: I have a little bit of a problem with that secret one. You just passed that. You want to be friendly and you have nine members; you elected your chair for the subcommittee. I think, among you, you could choose one. I don`t think it should be done by secret ballot; that's just for the House.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Because there's some uncertainty about the vote, could I ask for a recorded vote?
The Chair: But there was no uncertainty. It was eight to seven.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Mr. Chairman, under the rules, are we not allowed to ask for a recorded vote?
The Chair: You're allowed to ask before we raise our hands. I asked you to raise your hand and you raised your hand.
Mr. Svend Robinson: No, I think we can ask for a recorded vote.
Mr. Deepak Obhrai: I think you can ask for a recorded vote.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chairman, we voted for the amendment and it's over with. We cannot reopen the issue again. Am I right?
The Chair: Now, the decision was that we took the vote and I accepted the vote. It was eight to seven. For me, it's done. When it's done, it's done. We're not going to go back to record it after the vote.
Mr. Svend Robinson: I'd like to make a point of order. Could the chair assist us? My understanding is that it is permitted under the rules to request a recorded vote.
The Chair: Not after the vote.
Mr. Svend Robinson: The rules don't say anything about before or after. They say we can request a recorded vote. I'm requesting a recorded vote.
The Chair: I disagree totally with you, Mr. Robinson. When the vote is taken, the vote is finished. We're not going to record the vote afterwards.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Well, can we ask the clerk to assist us?
The Chair: I asked the clerk and--
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chairman, if the member wishes to ask for unanimous consent to repeat the previous vote, then he has the right, but he has to ask for unanimous consent. That's the rule in the House of Commons, right? The same rules apply.
The Chair: The ruling is that if you want to get a recorded vote, it needs to be done before we record the vote. The recorded vote doesn't come after the vote is done. It needs to be done before that. Nobody asked for a recorded vote, because we unanimously agreed on all the previous resolutions. I asked for hands to be raised, and it was eight to seven at that time. Now it's final. To get a recorded vote, you need to get the unanimous consent of this committee.
Mr. Bill Casey: I have a point of order. Mr. Dubé said that he didn't vote because he didn't hear the translation.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Mr. Bill Casey: Does that not give us a reason to have another vote?
The Chair: No. First of all, Mr.Casey, I think Mr. Dubé is big enough to take care of his own situation. As he just mentioned, he had his interpretation and he was not talking. There's nothing I can do about this. It's over.
Mr. John Harvard: Mr. Chairman, you have made a ruling, and unless someone is prepared to challenge it, I think we should move on.
The Chair: Is there a request to get unanimous consent?
An hon. member: No, no request.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Mr. Chairman, our committee, the Foreign Affairs Committee, claims to want to resolve global conflicts. In order not to begin the session on the wrong foot, I think we could agree to start the voting over again. It wouldn't be the end of the world, and we would all take our leave on a happier note.
The Chair: Mr. Dubé, you have to understand that there are rules and we have conformed to them. I think the first rule is to go along with the fact that this committee has authorized the sub-committee to have its nine members elect their own chair. I think the nomination would be unanimous, regardless of how the committee chooses to proceed. Whether or not the vote is secret, as far as I'm concerned...You brought the question up and I also put it to the committee, and the idea was rejected. If I agree to a new vote because a committee member missed his or her chance to vote, this would set a precedent for future votes.
As far as I'm concerned, the decision has already been made. The nine members of the sub-committee will elect their own chair. If you seek the unanimous consent of members to have another vote, then I'll have to accept the decision, but I put the question to Mr. Robinson and he said he wasn't in favour of a new vote.
The matter is settled then. That's my ruling. Are you all right with it?
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Monsieur Day.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Of course, I respect your views and opinion, Mr. Chairman, but which standing order precludes a second vote? Exactly which one is it? I'd simply like you to clarify that for me.
[English]
An hon. member: Point of order!
The Chair: I'm going to finish on this, Mr. Harvard.
Mr. Day, if you accept my decision, then the decision is supposed to be over. For one thing, if a vote is carried in the House of Commons or anywhere else and you say afterwards that you want to make an annotation or something, it cannot be done. When a vote is over, it's over. I'm sorry. It's totally irrelevant to ask if we are going to come back to the vote. I think it's irrelevant. You just mentioned that you accept my decision. If you accept the decision, we're just going to carry on with that decision.
Mr. Stockwell Day: I used the words, Mr. President, “votre avis”, your opinion; “votre point de vue”, your point of view, which I respect. I respect your point of view and your opinion.
The Chair: I don't take it personally.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Okay, thanks.
There are a number of members here--and I think this is a non-partisan revelation--who simply have a different view. That's why, for the process of learning together, as we love to do on this committee, we simply want to be sure we are not in violation of a House rule, in fact, and that a vote can be requested.
º (1620)
Mr. John Harvard: I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I think these interventions are out of order. I do not know what Mr. Day and Mr. Dubé are speaking to. You have made a ruling, and unless somebody is prepared to challenge the ruling with a motion, as far as I'm concerned this matter is closed.
The Chair: We're going to end this discussion because I made a ruling about this. For sure, anyone can challenge the ruling, but you just mentioned that you accept the ruling.
For me, it's irrelevant. When a vote is finished, it's finished. We cannot just say we want to call another vote, because the vote was finished. I don't think we're going to find anything in the rules that says we can restart a vote when the vote is finished. I think it's totally irrelevant.
An hon. member: We don't have instant replay.
The Chair: Yes.
Okay, the last intervention. We'll go to the next one.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Out of respect for you, sir, I was not asking for another vote, just the ability to have a recorded vote.
The Chair: The recorded vote was supposed to be done previously, before calling the vote. That's the way it is.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Okay, and that's why I've asked for clarification.
The Chair: Okay, fine.
Now, the next one is the creation of a Subcommittee on International Trade, Trade Disputes and Investment:
| That pursuant to Standing Orders 108(1) and 108(2), a Sub-Committee on International Trade, Trade Disputes and Investment to be chaired.... |
I'll dispense with the reading.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Mr. Chairman, I would propose the same motion and amend it by filling in the blank, in essence, to say “to be chaired by a member to be elected by the subcommittee”.
The Chair: Is there any discussion regarding Mr. Robinson's motion?
Mr. Day.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Chair, I want to maintain everything in order. Is it now in order...? Should we have this vote first? I would also like to propose that the selection of the chair be done by secret ballot. Should I do that in conjunction--
Mr. Svend Robinson: As soon as we've finished this vote.
Mr. Stockwell Day: I think you're right, but I obviously have to wait for the chair's ruling.
The Chair: Yes, it's the time to do it, because what you're asking is an amendment to the proposed motion of Mr. Robinson. We're going to vote on your amendment. If it's passed, we're going to go to the main motion, amended with what you've just mentioned. If it's not passed, we'll go to the main motion.
Now, do you want to repeat your amendment?
Mr. Stockwell Day: The amendment is this: “and that the selection of chair of the subcommittee be done by secret ballot”.
The Chair: Mr. Robinson, just on this amendment.
Mr. Svend Robinson: Mr. Chairman, I support the amendment and I would ask for a recorded vote on the amendment.
The Chair: Everyone heard the question.
Madame Carroll.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: Mr. Chair, I move that we vote.
The Chair: Yes, we're going to have a recorded vote, one by one.
We are voting on the amendment of Mr. Stockwell Day that the chair be elected by secret ballot. That's the question. I just want you to know what we're calling.
º (1625)
The Chair: Okay, the vote is eight to eight. This is the fun of being the chair. At the municipal level, it doesn't pass when it's eight to eight.
I'll vote against it.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 8)
The Chair: We now go to the motion proposed by Mr. Robinson.
Did you want a recorded vote?
Mr. Svend Robinson: No.
The Chair: Thanks.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: It is agreed that the subcommittee chair be elected, and that the nine members elect their chair.
[Translation]
Mr. Dubé, you said you had another motion that you wished to put to the committee after we finished with the current eight.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Yes. Most committees—or at least fifteen of them—adopt a motion to the effect that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents only if they are available in both official languages. At least 15 committees adhere to this rule. I therefore wish to move a motion to this effect.
[English]
The Chair: Does everyone understand the motion? Do you agree with the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
Could you please repeat the wording of the motion for the clerk's benefit?
| That the Clerk of the Committee be authorized to distribute documents only when available in both official languages. |
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Antoine Dubé: Now that the motion has carried, I would add that naturally, we are accommodating and in an emergency, with the unanimous consent of members, we would be...
The Chair: Fine, we're agreed then.
[English]
Everyone agrees to that.
Mr. Day.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Chair, I would like to propose a motion. It's related to the election of the chair of this committee. I do it after your election, sir, so that nobody could read into it that we lack confidence in you personally. Personally, I do have confidence in you.
The motion is that there would be a secret ballot election for the chair of this committee. That would obviously impact any future chairs, but not you. I think it's especially timely in light of words from one of our colleagues. In fact, they were from one of your colleagues, the one from LaSalle—Émard.
On the campus of York University, Mr. Martin said in a speech today that committee chairs should be elected by secret ballot, by a majority of the committee itself. That happens to coincide with a position that the Canadian Alliance has had for some time. I would therefore propose that the future selections of the chair of this committee be done by secret ballot.
The Chair: Mr. Assadourian.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chairman, my colleague just reminded me that your position is good for the next two years if no emergency occurs. That's my understanding.
I don't think we can set the agenda for the rules for future committees coming after ours. I don't think it's appropriate for us to decide how a future committee, three years down the road, is going to work. Let's leave it up to them to decide to make it a secret ballot or an open one.
The Chair: Ms. Carroll.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: I believe that qualifies as a new motion and requires a 24-hour notice to come before the committee, unless it has unanimous consent to come before the committee at this time.
The Chair: I agree with Ms. Carroll.
I think, Mr. Day, that even if this motion were acceptable, it is very hypothetical in the sense that every year we have the election of a new chair, and we cannot request that our committee right now tell the chair of the new committee what to do. For that reason it's really hypothetical, and I don't think we can deal with a hypothetical request.
Mr. Stockwell Day: I don't know that we can presume that, Mr. Chair. As you know, with the upcoming cabinet shuffle, you may find yourself elevated to another position, and we would have to seek a new chair of this committee.
The Chair: Mr. Harvard.
º (1630)
Mr. John Harvard: Mr. Chairman, you used the word “hypothetical”. This discussion might be pointless if it's out of order. I'd like to know from the clerk whether this kind of motion is even in order, because I don't know how we can bind future committees as to their choices of their chairs.
[Translation]
The Chair: No. We cannot rule on this matter. At some point in the future, we could have a new committee, with a new Chair and new members. We cannot dictate to those new duly elected committee members how they should hold their election. It will be up to these members to make the appropriate decisions in due time. That's why this question is purely hypothetical at this time and irrecevable, in some respects.
[English]
That's my decision.
Is there anything else?
Thank you very much for your confidence.
The meeting is adjourned.