SCYR Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Sub-Committee on Children and Youth at Risk of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, February 20, 2002

¹

1535

The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.))

Mr. Spencer

The Chair

An hon. member

The Chair

Ms. Julie Mackenzie (Committee Researcher)

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie (Community Health Representative, Chippewas of Nawash Health Centre)

The Chair

Ms. Helena Joanne Keeshig (Native Language Resource Teacher, Nshimi Daycare)

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

¹

1540

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

¹

1545

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

¹

1550

¹

1555

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ)

º

1600

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Ms. Guay

The Chair

º

1605

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

º

1610

The Chair

Mr. Spencer

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Helena Keeshig

º

1615

Mr. Spencer

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Mr. Spencer

º

1620

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Mr. Spencer

Ms. Helena Keeshig

M. Spencer

The Chair

Ms. Monique Guay

º

1625

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Monique Guay

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Mme Guay

The Chair

Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.)

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

º

1630

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Ms.Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

º

1635

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

º

1640

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

º

1645

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Mr. Alan Tonks (York South--Weston, Lib.)

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Mr. Alan Tonks

º

1650

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

Mr. Alan Tonks

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms.Kim Akiwenzie

Ms. Monique Guay

The Chair

º

1655

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

The Chair

Ms. Helena Keeshig

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

Ms. Kim Akiwenzie

The Chair

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CANADA

Sub-Committee on Children and Youth at Risk of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

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NUMBER 017

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

Wednesday, February 20, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1535)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.)): Welcome.

    We've had a request from one of the witnesses to take still photographs today.

    Does anyone have a problem with that?

    Larry, do you have a problem with still photos being taken on a brownie kind of thing?

    Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina--Lumsden--Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance): I need a haircut, but otherwise, it should be okay.

    The Chair: Unfortunately, one of our guests, Marcia Peters from Walpole Island First Nation, can't come, but we are very lucky to have both Kim Akiwenzie and Helena Joanne Keeshig with us.

[Translation]

    An hon. member: Will Marcia Peters be able to attend another meeting?

    The Chair: Will we be extending another invitation to her?

[English]

    Ms. Julie Mackenzie (Committee Researcher): If possible, yes. She just cancelled today, so I don't know. I haven't had a chance to check with her.

    The Chair: We will try and bring her back.

    I don't know how much background information you received about what we're doing. We're doing a rather extensive study of first nations kids, both on reserve and off reserve, but we're focusing right now on on-reserve. And we're delighted that you're here, because it gives us a reality check. I guess we'd like to know, from your perspective, what the reality is, what the good news is--we have some sense of the bad news. And you could make recommendations, so that we could leap-frog ahead: whether we're talking early childhood development services from conception to age six or later services for kids from six to twelve, how could we work with first nations to create the best possible systems to support families and their children, create a kind of gold standard, if you like, with the first nations? We are nothing if not ambitious and idealistic, and even dreamers, you might say.

    I understand, Kim, you're going to go second, because you're setting equipment up.

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie (Community Health Representative, Chippewas of Nawash Health Centre): Yes, I'm doing the multimedia presentation.

    The Chair: Then, Ms. Keeshig, we'd love to hear from you. I know you're associated with a specific day care, but tell us about your community, give us a description of it and a feel for what your world is like.

    Ms. Helena Joanne Keeshig (Native Language Resource Teacher, Nshimi Daycare): Neyaashiinigmiing is the Ojibwe word. It's our original name for where we are. Previously, as still on the map today, it was called Cape Croker. It is on the Bruce Peninsula, on the Georgian Bay side. Neyaashiinigmiing means “a point of land surrounded by water”. We have three limestone bluffs that encase us. It's almost like a wall, and very beautiful. There are only two roads for gaining access to our community.

    The Chair: What's the nearest town?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: Wiarton. We're about 20 minutes north of that. Our nearest city centre would be Owen Sound, which is where most of our people go to do their shopping for food, clothing, and entertainment.

    Our community's population is about 720. Our band membership is almost 2,000, and our youth population is about two-thirds of the 720.

    In our community we have a day care centre, which is where I work. We offer programs to infants, toddlers, preschoolers, and school-age children. Our school begins at junior kindergarten and goes to grade 8. After grade 8 our children are bused into Wiarton to attend the high school. We have a program that's relatively new, probably about two or three years old, called the alternative ed program. That program was developed to reach the needs of children who have difficulty learning in the regular classroom situation. We have a native child welfare program. They work in partnership with the Children's Aid Society, and they give support to families in need. We have a Catholic church and a United church. We have a gas bar. We have a crisis centre. We have our own police station. And we have a number of entrepreneurs selling fish. A lot of our men are engaged in fishing. We have a fish farm. We have a fire department. We have a park that caters to the tourist industry. And we have our own board of education.

    So that's us geographically and what's there.

¹  (1540)  

    The Chair: How are the kids doing?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: How are the kids doing?

    The Chair: How are all of you doing, and how are the kids doing?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: Our kids have difficulties. We have a lot of alcohol and drug use. We have situations of domestic violence. We have a shortage of adequate housing. We've had some of our young people die from alcohol-related incidents. Those are some of the not very good things that are happening.

    The reason I accepted the invitation to speak to the subcommittee was that I wondered what it is that I would have to say. My job at the day care is as the native language teacher. I teach Ojibwemowin to infants, toddlers, preschoolers, and school-age children. I also develop the resources for the teachers. I do translations of stories and songs for our use at the day care.

    One of the things I have noticed in the work I have been doing with these little people is that they grasp this, they enjoy it, they look forward to it, they pick it up quickly. My endeavour for the children in my community is to impart to them Ojibwe language. However, that's only a minute part of what I do and the dreams I have for these little people. I look at the teenage children in our community, watch what is happening with them, and try as best I can to fulfil a need for them.

    I'm the mother of three teenage boys and I'm a foster parent. In my own life I have seen through the eyes of my children drug and alcohol use. I have seen violence. I have seen some of our young people die. Very close friends of ours had that happen to them. But I also know that our language and our culture provide a means to give our people hope, to give our children a reason to live.

    I'm just going to say this, because you kind of caught me off-guard here, and I did prepare something.

¹  (1545)  

    The Chair: I didn't mean to throw you off.

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: I think you need to have a little background into where I'm coming from, so I'm going to begin with that, and perhaps after that you could ask me some questions.

    [Witness speaks in his/her native language]

    Hello, how are you, my friends?

    I have just told you my Anishinaabe name: I am Peaceful Woman. I am of the Wolf Clan, and I am from the Neyaashiinigmiing first nation.

    My English name is Helena Joanne Keeshig, and I am an early childhood educator and the native language teacher for the Nshimi Daycare Centre. I am also the mother of three sons and a foster parent.

    [Witness speaks in her native language]

    Thank you for inviting me here today to speak on behalf of our children, our future. The issues I would like to raise today concerning aboriginal children and youth at risk are in the area of aboriginal language and culture and the necessity for these young people to have knowledge and understanding of this heritage. Moreover, they should be supported and encouraged in this endeavour, not only by family members and extended family members, but by community programs, fellow community members, and their leaders at all levels. In this day and age our children are not only dealing with what cartoons to watch on TV, they are also confronted with domestic violence situations, drug and alcohol abuse, teenage pregnancies, promiscuity, HIV and AIDS, and much more.

    So how do you make it better? What is it that our children need? Where do you get it? Who is responsible? When and where do you do it? What role does aboriginal language and culture play? Knowledge and understanding of one's language and heritage provide a people with a cultural identity and make them unique. They provide them with a sense of belonging and a place in the world.

    You have invited me here today to bear witness to the status of aboriginal children and youth at risk. However, I would first like to give you a glimpse of where I am speaking from. The teachings of my people, the Anishinaabe, are many thousands of years old. We are told that all life is sacred and that children are to be respected and kept safe, because they are the future of the nations.

    In the seven stages of life teaching we are told that the early years of a child's life is [Witness speaks in her native language], the good life. [Witness speaks in her native language]means that children should not want for anything, that their every need should be met. Good life means you can trust the adults in your life to keep you safe and protected, to provide for your every need, mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. There should be no worries about where the next meal is coming from. In this good life children should not be concerned with violence and abuse, poverty and hunger. This is not their responsibility, it's ours.

    The next stage of life our children experience is the fast life, and anyone who is the parent of a teenager knows this stage is aptly named. It's a time when our children begin to stretch their wings and exercise their autonomy, begin to seek independence. They begin to make decisions and move out into the world. All of this is normal and natural development. In the time of our ancestors our people understood this and made provision for this. Rites of passage were built into our society as a means to teach our youth the sacredness of life, how to respect themselves mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. The whole community participated in the rearing of children. Today, without these teachings, our children and youth are going without knowledge and understanding of themselves as Anishinaabe. They are struggling to survive in a world where life is difficult, taking up responsibilities that are not theirs, hungering for something they know is missing, and filling that hunger with things that are not life-giving. This has to stop. Our children need us to be responsible adults and fulfil our roles as parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles.

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    How do we make this better? We take the time to know and understand the teachings of the Anishinaabe, to know ourselves, and to become healthy. We need to incorporate this knowledge and understanding, this way of living, at the community level, in our day care centres, native child welfare programs, our schools.

    When do we do it? We do it now. Our children are hungry, and we need to nourish them. Our children are cold, and we need to wrap them in our culture to give them warmth. We need to teach them our language and sing to them our songs. We need to tell them their history and soothe their spirits to make them strong. We are all responsible for ensuring that the seven generations from now have mino-bimaadiziwin, the good life. That's one of our teachings, that I need to stand here today, look seven generations from now, and say, what have I left you? Did I leave you clean water? Did I leave you pure, clean air? We haven't, and these children are going to pick that up, and they shouldn't have to.

    What does this mean? It means aboriginal culture and language have value and are a part of the solution for children and youth at risk. It means that through aboriginal language and culture, our children will gain their cultural identity, build their self-esteem and self-confidence. It means they will find their place in the world and become productive members of society. It means every effort should be made to ensure that our children have access to aboriginal culture and language. It means programs and curriculums need to be developed incorporating aboriginal language and culture, to be implemented in our schools, child care centres, and other programs that service children.

    We need to have that, and it's not something that's really strong. Where I'm at, it's difficult. Language and culture are one and the same. I can teach you language, and when you start finding out the beginning and the roots of those words, you go back and find out a little about our history, where we came from, how the creator put us here. Anishinaabe is “from whence he was lowered”. That goes back to the creation story of the Anishinaabek people. That in itself tells us we were here from the very beginning of time, and our children need to have that.

    I have three sons. Two of them were raised not within the culture, meaning that when they were born, I gave them English names, they were baptized, and that's how they began their life. My third son was born and raised within the culture. He is now 15 years old. He received his Anishinaabe name, he sweated, and he fasted. His hair was kept long until he was able to make the decision, through the help of our teachings, to cut his hair off and begin the fast life knowing and thinking about our teachings. So when he is confronted by peer pressure for drugs, alcohol, whatever, he's going to question it, and he has. And we're not over yet. He still has a few years left before he reaches adulthood, but I am very secure in knowing he is safe, he has a good mind, it's thinking clear.

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    Those are the things that need to be put there. Children need to have their language. The children I work with are gobbling it all up. It makes sense to them. I've seen two or three, maybe even four, of these children who find it easier to speak Ojibwemowin than to speak in English. Because they have difficulty speaking in English, they need other resources. Speech pathologists come in to teach them how to speak English, help them with their stuttering, when their natural language is flowing so easily from their lips. To me that's the most amazing thing.

    As for implementing these kinds of things, in our community we only have three language teachers. We have probably under 100 fluent speakers in our community. I am one of those three language teachers, and I am not a fluent speaker. The other two language teachers we have in our community are fluent, but they're elders, and sometimes working in the schools can be taxing for them. They're feeling their age, but they are also feeling the pressure, because sometimes it seems this language is not being picked up quickly enough.

    We have need for a classroom that is conducive to learning Anishinaabemowin. We have need of a classroom that is conducive to learning culture. These children are asking for it. They come up to me and ask me, am I dancing right? How do I dance? Can you show me how to dance? How do you say this in Ojibwa? I can go into the restaurant in our community, and they turn around and say, Joanne, what is this? And I tell them minikaachigan, because they know they have access to me in and out of the day care any time of the day, pretty much. So they're hungry and we need to provide them with that. We need to listen to what these young people are saying. That is very crucial. They know what they need.

    The Chair: Thank you very much. That was a wonderful, double presentation. I think both parts were equally important. I didn't mean to throw you off your game, but I thought your opening remarks were also extremely helpful in giving us a kind of word picture of the community.

    Were you born there?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: Born and raised.

    The Chair: Is there any comment at this point?

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Yes, I'd like to say something, but I'll address the committee in French.

    It's very moving when persons with firsthand knowledge of a situation meet with the committee. These persons are out working in the field every day and they are often personally affected by events in their community. We see it happen all the time. These individuals are familiar with the community's needs. Therefore, I want to thank Helena and Joanne for their very informative presentation.

    Since we're looking for fast, concrete solutions, what actions would you recommend the committee take today to improve the lives of young persons? You spoke of drug and alcohol problems. We hear a great deal about problems like this, particularly among first nations. What can we do as a committee? What do you recommend we do to help you resolve this problem?

º  (1600)  

[English]

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: Her presentation will probably help answer those questions.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: Fine.

[English]

    The Chair: Please retain the question, and we will come back to it.

    Ms. Akiwenzie.

º  (1605)  

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: Okay.

    This was a poem written by Haim Ginott. It was originally designed for educators, but I think it's for anybody who's a caregiver, a parent, a teacher, anybody who influences others, and I've changed it accordingly.

    

I've come to the frightening conclusion
That I am the decisive element
In the home, in a daycare centre, in a classroom,
In Parliament, sitting on a subcommittee or a standing committee.
It is my personal approach that creates the climate.
It's my daily mood that makes the weather.
As a teacher and educator, a developer,
I possess tremendous power
To make a child's life miserable or joyous.
I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration.
I can humiliate or humour, hurt or heal.
In all situations it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated,
A child humanized or de-humanized.

So in our planning, our strategies, our initiatives,
We need to promote healing humour, humanizing actions,
And we need to inspire and promote achievement in our children.
We want to promote better people,
We want to promote a better community,
A greater province, a great country.

    Thank you.

º  (1610)  

    The Chair: Merci et bravo. That's a terrific beginning.

    We have about 45 minutes to have, I think, a very significant discussion. We're very privileged to have you here. To be able to focus on a specific community, to be able to understand its situation, rather than generalizing, is very helpful to us. So while we're sad that our other guest couldn't make it, the fact that we're able to get into some detail about your community is actually a hidden blessing. Also, though we are sometimes more numerous than we are today, the fact that we're a smaller group will allow us to get more into detail. So I thank you for both of those presentations; they were both moving and helpful.

    Larry do you want to begin? I think we can be quite informal, because of our situation here.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Yes, I'd be glad to begin, and I'll apologize in advance, because I am going to have to leave early again today. I don't know why my speaking times in the House always come right after this committee.

    You both did a super job with your presentations. You answered in advance all the questions I wrote down here as you were speaking, and so I'll just get you to clarify a little more.

    Let me clarify my own position before I ask you some of these questions. I do not ask them in any sort of critical spirit, but with an honest searching. As the chairman knows, I have an aboriginal son myself. He was adopted when he was 3, and he's now turning 30. So I have a very special place in my heart for aboriginal people.

    Some of the greatest problems are brought about by alcohol and other things. You addressed that a little. You've mentioned several good things, but what do you see as your most effective tool for steering a youth past alcohol?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: You need to have opportunities to help them develop skills, opportunities for them to participate in sports and other enriching activities. There need to be opportunities for growth, and maybe in some situations there need to be opportunities for family healing.

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: I agree with that. I'm an alcoholic. I have 14 or 15 years of sobriety, and the change came for me when I went back along the trail to pick up the teachings of the Anishinaabe, and my life has been different. I live by example. This is what I teach my children. I take them to ceremonies and I encourage them to fast, to sweat, to sing, to dance, to be part of that ceremony and be among other young people who are like-minded. When we go to ceremonies, those are the people who are there, and they're surrounded by extended family members, who may not be our flesh and blood, but they are our clan. So someone who is in the Wolf Clan in Bad River, Wisconsin, would be an auntie or an uncle to my children and would treat them in the same way, encourage them and give them support.

    Those are some of the things we do, and Kim mentioned family treatment. You have to consider yourself part of the problem. You can't just tell children, don't do alcohol and don't do drugs, if you are doing them. That's an unfair expectation for them. The young people watch you, and if the leaders in the community aren't walking in a good way, the young people pick up on it, and so you're giving them a double message. It's really important to be part of the problem and part of the solution, make the changes here and move it outwards.

º  (1615)  

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Thank you.

    You've demonstrated to us your care and concern for children. You've described to us how you want to--if I can use these words--coddle them and care for them and protect them, and rightly so, as, of course, we all would as parents, or even as community. What do you expect in return from the children, starting at an early age? How do you expect them to respond to this kind of care? How do you teach them to show positive response?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: Day care is a place for socialization of these little people; they're learning how to be social creatures. They don't have it right off the bat, so you model for them positive social behaviour. You give them the words to be able to assert themselves. If someone is going in and grabbing toys away from them, you need to have that child who has been infringed upon go back and tell the other that's not okay. The same is true with all ages, being able to go back and say, this is not okay, it's not okay that you bring drugs and alcohol into my home; this home is to be safe, and my expectations of you are to....

    Basically, you have to talk to your kids. I had to learn how to be a good parent--I had to learn how to be a parent, period. I had to take back my responsibility as a parent. I had to set some ground rules for my children. It's basic in any of the courses I've taken in early childhood education that children need to have structure, they need to know what's expected of them, they need to know what's going to happen next. We wait until our kids get to be 13, and we have this complete stranger living in our house. We know from the time of conception that we are going to have a teenager in our house, and yet we wait until the last minute to deal with it.

    Going back along the trail is picking up those things and being the parent, being ready mentally to have those children. When you decide to have a child, you can't do it just for glory. You have to really think about it. Are you ready to take on the responsibility of creating life? Are you in the place financially to take care of another life? Are you emotionally ready to bring a life into this world?

    Mr. Larry Spencer: You very much speak my language, because I think this is an important part as well. We're trying to focus on the education of the preschoolers here, but you're telling us that it needs to go hand-in-hand with parental instruction, guidance, and so forth, and I don't know how we would do that as part of a child care program.

º  (1620)  

    The Chair: If I may intervene just for a moment, I think we have first to make a fairly clear distinction in our minds between the conception to six part and the six to twelve part. For example, the survey you did seemed to be for kids mostly from six to twelve. Is that right? Or were they older as well?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: The youth that participated in the survey were 12 and 13.

    The Chair: Oh, they were 12 and 13. I see.

    We have to understand that there are various periods of human development, however described, according to your traditional culture or anyone else's, I think there's agreement on that, but part of an early childhood development package would be parenting resources, parenting support, parenting courses, drop-in centres, the ability to learn from other parents with kids at the same stage, with somebody else there to ask how to handle these problems everyone's facing with two-year-olds or three-year-olds, or whatever else, so that there's not a separation between professional child care workers and children and parents, but they all have to play on the same team. That would be part of what I would see as a package.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Okay. Let me ask one last, hard question.

    I come from Saskatchewan, and our farm families have been going through great transition and have, in a lot of cases, had to leave their farms because they could not sustain them, they could not make the income. So the question I have here is, where is the culture in which you want your children to prosper? Is there an opportunity for them to grow up in that community and remain there? Will your strong teaching of your own culture keep them from going to where they can be employed, or is there opportunity for them to stay there? What is it that you're really preparing them to do?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: When we talk about language and culture, we talk about teaching our children how to live, and it's more morally and spiritually how to live their life in a good way, in the way the creator intends us to live. When you're able to take in these teachings and these songs and the language, they're transportable. You can go and live anywhere in world and still have that connection to the heart of who you are within your culture. If you have that cultural identity, you will have the confidence to go out into the world and meet it on its own terms.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: That's a very good answer.

    The Chair: Madame Guay.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: I totally agree with you. I can't talk to you about my culture and forget the language that I speak. This doesn't prevent me though from wanting to speak two, three, four or even five other languages, or from wanting to travel the world or even live in other countries. However, at the very core of my being...

    Obviously, people cannot live this way. They need a solid foundation in life. As we know, children acquire this solid foundation between birth and five years of age. We often hear how this time period is critical to a child's development and future path in life. Without this solid grounding, that is their culture, language, beliefs and sense of belonging, children will always be somewhat lost because they may not necessarily identify with another culture or adopt the customs of others.

    Clearly, if children are given the proper grounding in life, many problems can be avoided. I have two teenagers of my own and while they are not aboriginals, they are teenagers facing problems common to all adolescents. Their problems may not be quite as overwhelming as those faced by young aboriginals, but even though they don't live on reserves, they still have to contend with them. We need to help them and give them an opportunity to be heard.

    You live on a reserve. I would imagine you have some land. Do you get any help from the province? How do things work? Do you have service delivery agreements in place? I'm troubled by the fact that I haven't heard a great deal said about financial assistance or help in the form of services. Would your situation be improved if agreements could be reached allowing you to better educate your children while at the same time respecting your culture and language?

º  (1625)  

[English]

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: We do have agreements on some provincial or federal strategies to promote well-being in certain areas. But sometimes we're trying to fit into those agreements to meet needs and they're not always meeting the needs that really exist. So we're trying to provide something, and maybe we're not capturing the true need always.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: Are the rules that have been imposed too stringent for you then? That's what you appear to be implying. Are the standards applied not in line with your current requirements? Is there some way around all of this? Could different agreements be drawn up?

    More light will be shed on this problem, Mr. Chairman, as we meet with various groups in the weeks ahead. Some groups have their own, very specific needs. If we apply the same standards from coast to coast to coast, that might well lead to adaptation problems. The standards may not be sufficiently flexible to address the needs of different first nations groups on different reserves.

[English]

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: That's correct.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: We'll have to examine the issue a little more closely. It would be interesting to hear from Ms. Peters, who was unable to attend today's meeting. She works as a development officer and could shed some light on how these standards are applied.

    I am very sympathetic to your cause and I urge you to keep up the good work. It's important for you to continue lending an ear to children and to serve as the first line of defence. That's what they need the most.

    The Chair: Ms. St-Jacques.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.): Like my colleagues, I too would like to thank the witnesses for being here and for their presentation. You are doing tremendous work in the field with young persons.

    Drug addiction is a problem that concerns me. A recent survey of Quebec youth found that increasingly, young people are starting to use drugs in primary school. That wasn't the case a few years ago. Today, however, drug use begins at a very young age. Have you witnessed the same phenomenon in your community? Drug dealers are showing up at primary schools. The situation is very serious because children as young as five may be exposed to this type of activity.

    In your presentation, you spoke of specialized services and resources available to young aboriginals at a drug treatment centre. What efforts are currently being made in this area? What steps are you taking to help young drug addicts? Do you provide beds at the centre, or do you lack the resources to help them?

[English]

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: Unfortunately, there are no treatment centres for youth under 16 that have a native cultural element to them. There are choices located in Owen Sound, but sometimes our youth have difficulty with culture shock, with having counsellors or therapists relating to them in their environments. The kinds of things they're exposed to or the kinds of issues that are within the community are sometimes a barrier.

    Do you have more to offer?

º  (1630)  

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: We know we think differently, because we are of a different culture. It is difficult for our young people, and ourselves, to approach someone who is of another culture and bare our souls, because they don't understand where we've come from and how we came from there, what happened to us. That goes back years, with residential schools and those kinds of things, Indian agents, and the restrictions that were placed on aboriginal people. So one of the things we're experiencing in our community is multigenerational trauma.

[Translation]

     Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Did you say there were no treatment centres for youths under 16 years of age? Did I understand you correctly? What happens to younger children?

[English]

    Ms.Kim Akiwenzie: It's going to take many generations to move through that, unfortunately.

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: It becomes a very critical and very risky time in that youth's life. Certainly, we've had to attend to critical incidents in our community because of the lack of service. That's one of the saddest experiences you'd want to live through.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: You spoke of a lack of service. Continuing in the same vein, I'd like to follow up on what Ms. Guay was saying.

    Obviously, it's difficult to develop programs that will suit all of the different communities, since needs are different. However, do you feel that some of the existing initiatives should be improved upon? Should some programs receive increased funding because of the positive results they have achieved? Should some programs be scrapped because they have proven to be ineffective?

[English]

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: I think there's a great need to have a treatment facility for native youth in the province, a couple of treatment facilities for addiction in different locations.There are a few treatment centres that deal with solvent abuse and some very severe addictions, but if you're just having trouble with alcohol, perhaps, or street drugs, you might not fit there, because maybe you aren't into solvents yet, so you're not really critical. It's still very dangerous to be using at that age.

    I think there's a great need to have a native youth treatment centre that deals with addiction, that deals with sexual assault, that deals with anger. Those are the three key areas, and I don't see that. In our community, when our service providers have to meet the challenges of youth or families with youth who are struggling, they are not able to provide the service they need to help them move through their addiction or the challenges for wellness.

    The Chair: I have a ton of questions, and I suspect we could be here until tomorrow morning if I were allowed to ask them all, but I am the chairman, so I can abuse my own rules a bit.

    Let me just understand a few facts of the case. I think you said in your presentation that there are 720 people, more or less, living on the reserve, but a total number of 2,000-plus who are part of this first nation, and there--

º  (1635)  

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: And they might be living anywhere in Canada or the U.S., but they still have membership in the community. They still have a connection, a relationship. They have family there.

    The Chair: Tell me about the coming and going. Are the 720 pretty constant, and then other people come in seasonally, or come home for visits? How does that work?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: They come home for visits. We have people who have lived off the reserve for many years and have returned to take up residence. Some of our people have moved off into the cities, have lived there for 20 or 30 years, and have come back. We're finding that their children are coming back with their children to live on the reserve, to establish themselves within the community. That's happening with more frequency.

    The Chair: You described the economy a bit. You said a lot of people live off fishing, in Georgian Bay I guess. Is there an official employment or unemployment rate? That's the first question. Second, are people commuting to jobs in Wiarton or Owen Sound?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: My guess would be that a handful of people seek employment off the reserve in Owen Sound or Wiarton, but that number is extremely small. We have 22 programs in our community to meet the needs of our people, and in our day care centre we employ maybe 18 people to service the families we do serve. A lot of our programs are from grants, whether it's the literacy program or the job readiness program for the young people who don't have their high school diplomas and things like that. Those are there.

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: Short-term initiatives.

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: Short-term initiatives. We have seasonal work.

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: I think the greatest employment is seasonal. For example, there's a key time for fishing where it's more productive. Certainly, a lot of our community members fish, of different ages and ranges, and there are even some women who fish. It's quite a big job, very strenuous. That's probably the key economic self-supporting element. The other opportunities for employment are limited, and their lengths are limited.

    When you talk about population coming and going, I think one of the key reasons people do not stay in the community is employment. So when you look at our membership as 2,000, the on-reserve membership being 720, there's quite a significant number of people actually not living in the community. It's probably largely related to the opportunities that exist outside the community.

    The Chair: One of the things that is so challenging for this committee, and indeed for anybody who is trying to think about doing the right thing, is that there are so many things outside what you might call the strict definition of early childhood development services or child and youth services, which have to do with jobs, which have to do with housing, which have to do with a whole bunch of adult issues as well. I'm now almost thinking that our quartet of reports has to turn itself into a sextet, because we have to think about those from 12 to 18 too, but let's just worry about the first two for the time being.

    Suppose we could get it right for all young kids on reserve--let's start with zero to six, and understand we're going to provide appropriate services further along the line--starting with conception, from the moment someone discovers that they are pregnant, or someone discovers somebody else is pregnant, not in a heavy-handed social engineering way, but in a way that is supportive and respectful, arising out the best values of the culture you began describing, the good years. If you held all the other things constant, the housing issues, all the other terrible things you're up against, by focusing on the kids and their families, could we make a material difference to that community? It would obviously do good, but would it actually have a multiplier effect, spin-offs that would reflect in other ways? In other words, is this the place to begin helping communities? We have a prejudice, but we'd like to hear from you.

º  (1640)  

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: I think targeting zero to six is good. Providing parents with skills to create stimulation around those developmental milestones is certainly a key area, providing information about what children need, the values that are needed in a family, some structure and rules, all the elements that are needed in a healthy family. But I also think there's a cultural piece that needs to integrated into that.

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: It needs to be culture-based. You need to be able to take these teachings from the very beginning, explain things to the parents, and encourage them in the best way possible: you are bringing life into this world, and this is what our people did then. There's so much in our community, in our cultural identity that's missing, because of the things that have happened to us. There's a handful of people who are going back along the way and bringing those things forward, the teachings of our people, the teaching of the good life, teaching of tobacco and our medicines, and those kinds of things, the rites of passage for young women and young men when they come to that. Those things are just beginning to happen, and we need more of that. So any programs that are developed need to be culturally based.

    The Chair: I heard Kim say that we have to be very agile with programs to fit criteria developed in head office. We've certainly heard throughout the fall that various federal government departments have.... You could probably name them yourselves. There's Human Resources Development, which provides some child care money, there's Health Canada, which has got aboriginal head start, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development itself.

    Let me just try this on for size. Suppose you pooled all that money and said, our motto here is 100% coverage of all pregnant women, all newborns, everybody up to six, and we're going to do it in a culturally appropriate manner, we're going to do it out of a child and family centre. All this program is going to happen, so that you know from the word go, and it's going to be health-related as much as it is education-related and development-related. If we took all these different programs and created a holistic program that covered all the developmental stages—let's start from conception to six—in one place, and so there was 100% coverage, is this a crazy idea? Would this work? Would you welcome it? Would you find it intrusive?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: I think it's a good idea. When we're looking at developing community, we also have to develop opportunities for wellness. It's good that we're providing education and providing information for parents, so that they can be better parents to provide information for their children, to develop their children to where they want to be. But if they're struggling with issues themselves as parents, they won't be able to be at a place where they're going to look at those developmental needs, because they're still struggling with their own issues. I'm not saying this is always the case, but I think there still need to be opportunities for family wellness. It's nice to be able to fit into a model that looks at zero to six, that looks at providing that stimulation for those milestones, but you need to include the culture and you need to include the opportunities for wellness.

º  (1645)  

    The Chair: Supposing there was a pilot project--there are always pilot projects, right?--to take all these programs, to work with you, to hit all the points you've raised, working within the specifics of the culture, drawing out the best elements of the values, the religion, addressing head-on the needs of parents to feel more confident, do you think that without blowing the bankroll and all the rest of it, you could design such a thing and we could do it in a way that would be fully supported by the community?You'd just roll it all into a program that addressed both the universal needs of human development and the cultural specifics and the very difficult challenges your particular families and your particular community are going through? Is this crazy? Is this doable?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: It's doable.

    The Chair: Would you like to do it?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: I'd love to do it.

    The Chair: It was a leading question, I must admit.

    So we must figure out how to do it.

    I have now gone on far beyond my time. Are there other comments or questions?

    Alan.

    Mr. Alan Tonks (York South--Weston, Lib.): I'm sorry I was late.

    Can I just get a clarification. Is the Nawash Health Centre on reservation or off reservation?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: It's on reserve.

    Mr. Alan Tonks: Okay, on reserve.

    When you talk about the early childhood care component, others we have had have stressed how important it is, in all the strategies, to involve family. I just want follow the chairman's direction through a little. We refer to--it's a terrible, shop-worn term--one-stop shopping. We had one group who came and told us of the ideal model, and I think the chairman has touched on it. In the overview you gave, you said that in some respects, when you're looking at a vulnerable community through the eyes of young people, their needs are not much different from those of others. I understand that there's a cultural component here.

    To elaborate on what the chairman has outlined, job search, entrepreneurial opportunities in new industries, more in keeping with what the community defines it wants to do, a little bit of research in that area, the opportunity, if it's additional skills that are required, to go to Wiarton, to go to Owen Sound, or to become involved in the opportunities on reserve, would those components be part of the mix that would also make for healthy communities, building on the early childhood components, but then growing past those? Are they being provided now to your satisfaction, job search and skills upgrading and the research that goes on for local community development? Are they being provided to your satisfaction, and could they be an additional component that would really make the community thrive?

º  (1650)  

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: An additional component that could make the community thrive would be a good thing, yes. I think there is some job search. There is some promotion of entrepreneurship, but I think there could be a greater concentration there. You want to create those opportunities. We come from a fishing community, and not too long ago our fishing territory was recognized for what it was, and there have been many struggles. But what I noticed was that many people were involved in trying to work in that fishing industry in various respects. That always fascinated me. So if there were opportunities for work, for entrepreneurship, for developing other types of economics, people would do it, they would participate.

    Mr. Alan Tonks: Do you think there is a deficiency there now in respect of the community's ability to spin off new job opportunities, get the skills to do it, and get the little bit of investment that's needed to create another industry around the fishing component? Do you think that doesn't exist right now to the extent that you would like?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: That's correct.

    The Chair: For clarification, you used the word wellness, and I was listening to that word. Many times it has a connotation of health promotion and it's almost an analogy for health, but you were using it, I think, in a different way, or that may have been part of it. There was a more layered meaning in what you meant by wellness. Do you want to tell me a little about that?

    Ms.Kim Akiwenzie: There is a need to have family treatment opportunities. There is a need for a counsellor or therapist who deals with children's issues in our elementary school. Teachers have identified this need. Children are struggling with emotional problems, our youth are struggling with some addictions, some of our parents are struggling with addictions, there are other issues. So when I use wellness, I am trying to include all those areas of need--there are many areas. I think that at the same time we're providing opportunities for education, we need to provide opportunities for wellness.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: You've just given us a sound life lesson and a good example of the knowledge acquired from working with young people. It will certainly give us cause to reflect on the way we now deal with this issue. We need to show considerably more flexibility in our approaches and we need to let you decide how to run the programs based on your observations and wishes, so that everything runs as smoothly as possible.

    You talked about a drug treatment centre for young persons. My colleague Ms. St-Jacques asked if such a centre existed and you responded in the negative. When these young persons face a crisis or are in need of assistance, to whom can they turn? Are there resources available somewhere? This situation is quite disconcerting.

    Where or to whom can young persons who have been abused or who have family problems turn? You seem to be saying that there is no place for them to go. Your community deals with emergency situations and we need to legislate so that you can take action based on your knowledge and on the needs of your community.

[English]

    The Chair: We've had a lot of discussion from various federal officials about the programs they feel good about that are found on reserve, and I'm just going to give you four, because they were presented to us: aboriginal head start, Canada prenatal nutrition, community action program for children, first nations child care. Maybe we need to get a written reaction to this, but I'd just like your impression about the relative effectiveness of any of these. Are all four or any of them present where you are, which ones are really neat, and which ones don't make any difference? If you think it's appropriate to comment on them, we'd just like to get a feel for how they work in your eyes, or how they could work.

º  (1655)  

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: We do have the CPN program, and what that does for families is provide opportunities to encourage breast feeding, it provides opportunities for parents and children to get information about nutritional health. There's more of an emphasis, though, on nutritional health, as opposed to a holistic kind of health picture.

    The Chair: Does it cover 100% of pregnant women, or is it just some people? How does it work?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: It doesn't capture all women, because not all women want to participate in the service. Because there's a limitation in the money, it tends to be used for the resources, as opposed to having somebody deliver the service. In a way that's a good thing, and in a way it's not such a great thing. The good thing about it is that you have more money for resources, but you don't have somebody to go and do the home visiting and get to be people who need to be reached.

    The Chair: Do you have those other programs? Do you have aboriginal head start where you are?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: No.

    The Chair: Do you have CAPC?

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: No.

    The Chair: And first nations child care?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: No.

    The Chair: That's very interesting in itself.

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: You're talking about day care, right?

    The Chair: Day care, yes.

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: We have a day care program, and it is good. It's come a long way. We service infants, toddlers, pre-schoolers, and school-age children. Our school-age children come to our program after school, and then in the summer it runs full-time.

    The Chair: Is this federal money for this? HRDC?

    Ms. Helena Keeshig: No, it's provincial.

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: The Ministry of Community and Social Services.

    The Chair: It's Ontario, enjoy it while you can. C'est vraiment menacé en Ontario.

    If there are no other questions, let me reiterate how much we've appreciated your coming. I think, as I say, it's allowed us to understand various dimensions of the community in depth. Obviously, it would be even better if we came and visited you, but I think we would very much like to stay in touch with you. As we move forward with our crazy ideas here, we want to be able to get a reality check from people like you who can give it to us. We commend you for the work you do with kids. It's obviously important. We share your commitment to them. We want to work to make this a success, to make these the good years for all of us.

    Thank you for coming, and let's stay in touch.

    Ms. Kim Akiwenzie: Thank you for having us. It's been great.

    The Chair: You're welcome. The meeting is adjourned.