PACC Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, March 29, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance)): Ladies and gentlemen, we've gathered here today on a bit of an historic day, I believe. In fact, there has just been a vote in the House that the opposition won and the government lost, and it's not too often that happens. And it's also an historic day in that we welcome the Auditor General and his gracious wife Shirley as witnesses to the meeting this afternoon.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1), we have presentation by members of Parliament relating to the end of the term of the Auditor General of Canada.

It reminds me of many years ago in the United Kingdom there was a television show called This Is Your Life. It was hosted by a gentleman of the name of Eammon Andrews and they would under some kind of pretence bring someone to the studio. They would have no idea why they were coming there and friends and relatives would come in and give testimonials to the person who was being celebrated. The show was called This Is Your Life.

Today, I think, Mr. Desautels, we can say on Parliament Hill this is your life, because we have some people who would like to have a few words to say before you depart at the end of the month, a couple of days from now, after having served us so well for ten years.

Keeping with the theme of This Is Your Life, we have Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier, the first chairman of the public accounts committee when you arrived here ten years ago. We have asked Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier to say a few words.

Senator.

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Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): I must admit that I have a little bit of a hearing difficulty. Following my visit to a certain hospital I got medication that made me deaf. It's hard for a politician to be deaf, but it doesn't stop me from talking. I don't hear what I'm saying, so I can be excused for saying anything.

Mr. Chairman, I'm more than honoured to be here.

[Translation]

It is true that I was chairman of this committee in 1991 when Mr. Desautels was appointed Auditor General of Canada.

It is also true that at that time, I must admit, Public Accounts was not a topic of great interest to most members. This was a chronic problem, because the report of the Auditor General of Canada always arrived one or two years late, which meant that the events or recommendations of the Auditor General dealt with situations that had taken place one, two or three years earlier. It wasn't easy.

At that time, I recommended to the committee and to the House of Commons that the legislation be amended, because the Auditor General's Act stated that the Auditor General could only table one report a year. That report was quite voluminous.

It was proposed that the House amend the legislation and allow the Auditor General to table more than one report. Today, I think that you table four reports, one every three months. I think these reports are more timely and that they are carefully looked at by this committee, and the Senate also takes an interest in them.

I don't intend to bore you with my remarks, but I simply want to say that on March 27, I gave notice to the Senate that I would table a motion. I will read it to you:

That, in the opinion of the Senate, Mr. Denis Desautels has been an excellent Auditor General of Canada.

Scrupulously honest, professional, fair-minded and a determined investigator, Mr. Desautels carried out his duties as Auditor General efficiently and effectively. During his 10-year term, he not only verified the government's accounts but was also able, thanks to his leadership, to lead a team as professional and dedicated as himself.

The Parliament of Canada [...]

And I presume that the House of Commons will take note of this.

[...] thanks Mr. Desautels for his services and recognizes the valuable work he has done for his country.

Yesterday, we adopted this motion, and I will read it to you briefly:

I would simply like this message to be sent to the House of Commons so that it will join us in recognizing the great services rendered to the country by Mr. Denis Desautels [...]

Our hats are off to you, Denis.

[English]

Time moved on and the election was held in 1993. The opposition moved to the other side and became the government and two new parties arrived on Parliament Hill, the Bloc Québécois and the Reform Party at that time. The Bloc Québécois were the official opposition.

After the federal election in 1993 Mr. Bélisle became the chairman of the public accounts committee. Richard, although he's no longer a member of Parliament, has graciously come back today to give us a few words on his two or three years as the chairman of public accounts.

Mr. Richard Bélisle.

[Translation]

Mr. Richard Bélisle (former Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Desautels, dear friends, I'd like to thank the members of the Public Accounts Committee for having invited me here today as a former chairman and for allowing me to take this opportunity to highlight the end of Mr. Desautels' term in office as Auditor General of Canada.

I worked closely with Mr. Desautels for two years, specifically in 1994 and 1995, and I can tell you that with his level of expertise—I had the opportunity to observe him during that time—the issues which he drew to elected officials' attention and the concerns which he tried to make Canadian taxpayers aware, seem to me because of his personal qualities, among other things, to be in what I would call a class by itself during certain exchanges which were in fact clashes among parliamentarians.

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I always found Mr. Desautels to be extremely conscious of the need for tight management of public funds, and to display a concern for the millions of taxpayers in this country to get their money's worth, so to speak, especially since federal departments and agencies operate in a state monopoly situation and that one of the rare ways for taxpayers to ensure the effectiveness of their operations remains the control exercised by the Auditor General over federal government management.

The role of the Auditor General is crucial in a democracy. It is crucial in Canada. His office must continue to report to Parliament, but the powers of the Auditor General should be increased, particularly his powers of investigation.

Mr. Desautels has played his role admirably as protector of taxpayers, or indeed as ombudsman for the taxpayers of this country. I thank him on my own behalf and especially on behalf of my children and grandchildren, because without this call to order, the federal debt that we are preparing to leave to the next generation would be far higher that $550 billion which is where it stands at the moment.

Of course, it's all very nice to crow upon the distribution of wealth on a daily basis, but the creation of this wealth is the result of sound management of the billions of dollars that taxpayers hand over to federal elected officials every year, and the reference points of sound management remain in large part the statements and reports of the Auditor General.

Mr. Desautels, let me offer our warmest thanks for having assumed these heavy responsibilities so well over the past 10 years and for having been the true financial conscience of Parliament. We all indebted. Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Bélisle, for these very kind words. We appreciate you taking the time to come back to Parliament Hill, and to express your sentiments on this particular day.

Of course, after Mr. Bélisle ceased to be the chairman, the chairman after that was Michel Guimond, also from the Bloc Québécois, who continued on as a chair until the election in April of 1997 was called. Unfortunately, Mr. Guimond cannot be with us today, but he has written a letter to us, and he's asked me to read it.

[Translation]

Mr. Desautels.

Unfortunately, a long standing engagement in Quebec City prevents me from attending your farewell session this afternoon.

However, I would like to point out that as chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in 1996 and 1997, I had an opportunity to value your qualities and to get to know you as a gentleman of unfailing integrity. During my years as chairman, I benefitted from your professional and calm approach, especially when I “sometimes” made “somewhat” impetuous comments. Your attitude always remained strictly professional and I thank you for that.

Lastly, being myself a former member of Caron, Bélanger, Ernst and Young in Quebec City, I was able to note that your appointment as Auditor General of Canada 10 years ago was simply the logical continuation of an extremely fruitful career which, I am convinced will not end at the expiration of your current mandate.

I hope that your new career development will meet all your expectations and some good golf games [...]

Michel Guimond, Member of Parliament for Beauport—Montmorency— Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans.

[English]

The whip of the Bloc Québécois.

Now we're going to Mr. Werner Schmidt from Kelowna, B.C., who would like to say a few words also this afternoon.

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Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It's a real honour for me to speak to you personally, and it's about you as a person.

You have impressed me, sir, as one of those rare people who puts principle first and who has identified, better than anyone else I know here, that it is principle first.

You have deep honour and respect for Parliament and from this comes the belief that public money should be treated as a trust—it is a trust that we have.

You displayed courage when you took into account the people who pay your bills. They pay you, and you told them, “Look, this is what you're doing right and this is what you're doing wrong”. And you told them to smarten up and walk the talk. So I take my hat off to you—I know I haven't one on, but I take it off figuratively.

So with great respect, I wish you well and thank you very much for the things you have done. I also thank you for the example you have set for us of a man who is not only highly professional, but who is a person of integrity who puts principle first and himself second. So thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Schmidt.

Now we're going to turn to Ms. Marlene Jennings, the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine.

[Translation]

Ms. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sir, since you still hold the position of Auditor General, I think that I can speak on behalf of my party, on behalf of the Liberal members who are here today as well as those who are not, and former Liberal members who were in Parliament during your mandate.

During your 10 years as Auditor General of Canada you have helped successive governments, regardless of their political stripes or partisanship, restore fiscal health and improve the management of programs and taxpayers' money. A great deal remains to be done.

Moreover, with your personal integrity, probity and intellectual honesty, you have shown how public leaders, whether elected or appointed, must behave and carefully preserve public funds and programs aimed at providing products or services to the public.

It was a great honour for me to be a member of this committee during your mandate. I wish you every success in your future endeavours or activities. I am sure that the skills and expertise you displayed during the past 10 years will serve you very well and will also serve Canadians.

On a personal note, Madam Desautels, I'd like to thank you for making it possible for your husband to discharge his duties as Auditor General. All elected officials know that if we succeed as government representatives even by half, whether we are elected or appointed, it is always with the support and help of our families and loved ones. So from my personal standpoint—and I think I can speak for all Canadians—I wish to thank you very much for having lent us your husband for 10 years.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Jennings.

[English]

Mr. Bob Mills from Red Deer.

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Auditor General and your wife, Shirley, it is my great pleasure to be here. I've never served on the committee, yet I have had contact with you and my respect for you has grown through this contact.

I came down here because I wanted accountability in government, particularly accountability of the debt and the deficits, and so on, that were happening. I think you can take a lot of credit for putting those facts and figures out and in fact for the government taking the action that it did.

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I also thought this might be a roast, so I'll modify this a little bit. The chairman didn't tell me.

I've had a couple of personal contacts with Denis—and I hope you won't mind my mentioning these. I think these say a lot about the kind of person that he is.

The first one was when the Conference Board of Canada had a conference at Val-David. We were cloistered there for three days and got a chance to meet the people who were there, husbands and wives and so on. I couldn't help thinking as I listened to the various speakers—you kind of analyse them and do a little sociological study of them—how proud I was as a Canadian, as a member of Parliament, that we had an Auditor General who was so informed, so caring, and so close to the people there. I say that with all honesty. People respected you as much as all we parliamentarians have respected you. And I thank you for that.

The second one was that I do an “in touch” show—a lot of you do—on cable television. One of the constituents had the idea, “Why don't you talk to the Auditor General someday on your TV show?” I said, “Oh, he would never be able to come. He's busy and so on”. But he did come. He was there. I know he's been on lots of other people's call-in shows, or whatever. I think that says a lot about the person as well. He's down-to-earth; he's the kind of person that anybody, any Canadian, could approach. That's sometimes rare in a place like this. So I've always appreciated that as long as I've been here.

I wish you both the very best of luck. Thank you for all you've done for us as Canadians. We really appreciate it. Thank you.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Mills.

We'll now turn to Mr. Paul Szabo from Mississauga South.

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Auditor General. I don't know if you're going to miss that salutation.

I'm here not only to pay my respects but also to celebrate your tenure of ten years as our Auditor General.

When I was elected in 1993, like all members of Parliament, I wanted to learn more about how I could be relevant in this place. As a chartered accountant, I wanted to get to know you. The first thing I did when I came on the Hill was to make an appointment with your office to meet you. Not only did you take the time to meet with me as a new member of Parliament, you invited me to sit in a boardroom with key staff to help inform me of the kinds of issues parliamentarians could play a role in.

Indeed, from that meeting, I recall I took an instant interest in the subject of the underground economy. Your staff were very helpful in providing me with substantial background and research material. In fact, a votable motion came before the House and was passed, embraced by the House, and we've had some progress on that file, as you well know. So I feel that even right from the start I've been able to leave a little fingerprint on this place.

During the last ten years it was difficult at the beginning because we were a paper place. But we now have CD-ROMs from the Auditor General's office that you can do searches on; we have more frequent reports; we have a website; we have the accessibility in many more ways, and for that we're much better off. The velocity of information and the amount of information means we need those tools and you've helped to bring those. I think that's also a very important part.

I would think that for most people in positions with important responsibilities legacies are of interest. But I would think from a personal standpoint, the measure of earned respect one has been able to achieve is very important. Mr. Desautels, I have no doubt on behalf of all colleagues here that you have earned tremendous levels of respect in this place. We thank you for your contributions.

I would think that there are many, many opportunities that will come in the future. I talked to you earlier. I know you're planning to take some time for you and your family. So I think I came here simply to say thank you for helping me to get a good start, and may you and your dear wife enjoy good health and happiness all the rest of your days.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Chair: We can't always be here on Parliament Hill when we would like to be, especially on a day when we get out of school early because the opposition won the vote and Parliament has adjourned for the rest of the day.

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I have here a letter from Mr. Philip Mayfield, the MP from Cariboo—Chilcotin, who asked me to read the letter. It says:

Dear Mr. Desautels:

As your term serving as Canada's Auditor General comes to a conclusion, I sincerely thank you for your dedicated service. You have done much more than keep watch over the accounts of our federal government. Your efforts to promote such important matters as reforming the public service, having the federal government's accounting procedures brought up to modern-day standards, and your insistence that everyone must conduct the affairs of our government according to the highest ethical standards are important elements of the legacy that you have created.

It has been a great pleasure for me to participate with you in the work of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Accounts. I have been stimulated and encouraged by your example of dedication and accomplishment. Thank you very much.

Wishing that your future endeavours be both successful and satisfying, I remain,

Yours sincerely,

Philip Mayfield, MP

Cariboo—Chilcotin.

And that's from Philip.

And now, Mr. Epp from Elk Island, we will hear from you.

Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This seems altogether too formal to me. We've had Mr. Desautels at our finance committee a number of times. Since I was usually the first guy on the official opposition to ask a question, after this session I somehow feel I should fire some questions at you, but I'm going to resist the temptation.

I'm really delighted to be here. When it was circulated that there was going to be a function like this, I said I'm going to make a point to be there. Even though I don't know you well—because I haven't had a lot of personal contact with you—I have been very greatly impressed with your dedication to the job.

In thinking a bit about what I wanted to say here today, I was thinking of some of the stories—there are all sorts of terrible stories about politicians. So I thought, well, there are also some I've heard about lawyers and accountants. One I remember is “What does an accountant do in order liven up a party at his house?” The answer is he invites some actuaries. You just don't fit the mould, my friend. You're just not that kind of a person.

Just imagine, an accountant with personality—it's really wonderful.

The Chair: It's an oxymoron, Mr. Epp.

Mr. Ken Epp: You're one too, aren't you, John?

One of my best recollections was quite early on after we were first elected in 1993 and one of the first times that I had got to know you through some committee interchanges. I was over on Wellington Street, just about to cross the street, and there you were with a couple of your assistants or officials. You recognized me and actually said, “Hello, Mr. Epp”. I was profoundly surprised by that and said, “Isn't this amazing! Here's a farm kid from Saskatchewan, escaped to Alberta, now a member of Parliament, and he's actually recognized by name by the Auditor General of Canada”. And I thought, wow, that's pretty well the apex of one's career. So I really appreciate that.

I know we don't have a great deal of time, and I'm just going to wrap it up by saying, Mr. Desautels, as far as I'm concerned, you have set the benchmark for excellence in the office of the Auditor General. I've observed your work very closely now for the seven-plus years that we've been here. I'm very impressed with your thoroughness, your great personality, your way of expressing, in a very meaningful way, the concerns that you carried on behalf of Canadian people.

So not only on behalf of our party, but also certainly on behalf of all Canadians we feel we represent as members of Parliament, our deep-felt thanks both to you and your wife for your service to our country. It's valuable. It's valued. And we wish you the very best in your retirement.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We'll now turn to Mr. Peter Adams from Peterborough.

Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I sit here and hear my colleagues on both sides of the House sucking up to the Auditor General. Don't you realize he's leaving? There is no reason to do this any more!

I'm Peter Adams; I'm the MP for Peterborough. For the last couple of years I've been chair of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. I came into that position as a very idealistic chair. I thought, here is my opportunity to do some wonderful things, to do some studies, to delve into this huge—by the way, very important—government department, to make some constructive suggestions and positive changes.

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But since I became chair, as Denis knows, the committee has been occupied largely for many months with what we refer to now as the inquiry into grants and contributions, which were televised public hearings held in this room that lasted for months and months. Then more recently—until last week, in fact—the committee dealt with the employment insurance bill. In itself that is an interesting and very important bill, but an area of HRDC in which the Auditor General has taken a great deal of interest.

I have to say, I'm still idealistic in my own way, but as these hearings proceeded, I began to doubt my good opinion of the role of the Auditor General's office in democracy—which some of our members here have mentioned.

We all know, rationally, that the Auditor General's office is a wonderful thing. It's built into our system as part of the very public checks and balances, and in itself that is a wonderful thing. So before I was chair, I was very supportive of the increased frequency of the Auditor General's report. That's one of the things that have come about while you've been in office, Denis.

And when I'm calm I still think it's a good thing that the Auditor General now reports more frequently than he did before. But when I'm sitting there as the chair or at the witness end of the meeting, wanting to do something else, and the Auditor General's office is grinding away at these issues all the time and requiring a great deal of attention from our committee and diverting it from these other good things we have to do, I'm beginning to have some doubts.

I did notice, Mr. Chair, that when the Auditor General was here only last week, my committee's behaviour toward to him was quite different. He was riding off into the sunset, as I said, and at the end of the meeting our members applauded him. I thought this was extraordinary, after the cruelty of all these years.

Who was it who mentioned that is a roast, Mr. Chairman?

The Chair: But perhaps you just came to the realization that he was right after all.

Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Chair, I would never admit that on camera.

I thought to myself, where has this rosy glow come from, just because he's leaving? What are the reasons for it? First of all, I thought perhaps it was relief. It's like beating your head against a brick wall: when it stops, when he's going away, our members feel much more positive towards the office and the person. I thought perhaps that's one reason for the rosy glow.

The second reason I thought of for the rosy glow was the members have got this warm feeling about Denis Desautels because they realize they would sooner work with the devil they know than the devil they don't know. This may be a devil sitting to my right here, Mr. Chair, but at least we know him and we understand his moods and his experience and this kind of thing.

The third reason for this rosy glow, I think, has to do with some of the things said here today, Denis. I think there's the office. It's the same with all of us. I'm an MP, but I'm also me. You're the Auditor General, but you're also you.

I think the office has developed because of your occupancy. I know you gained in experience. I know that people—my colleagues on all the committees—have always been impressed by your instinctive understanding of the system. But I do think you have matured in the office, and as you've matured, you've brought the office along with you. Because of that, you leave the office—and therefore Parliament and our democracy—in a much better state. So that's the third reason for the rosy glow.

Like the others, I want to thank you and your wife very much for the time you've had with us. We hope we do see you again. On behalf of the Standing Committee of Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities—which will still be wrestling with your successor over the issues you've raised—I thank you for all your work as Auditor General.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

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Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Adams.

Now we're going to turn to Mr. Art Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance): Mr. and Mrs. Desautels, colleagues, Mr. Chairman, I am honoured to be here this afternoon.

I would like to say thank you to Mr. Denis Desautels, who I think has demonstrated an exceptional ability to uncover government waste. He has proven himself to be one of the best Auditor Generals Canada has ever had.

He has proven himself above any suggestion of partisanship—except, if this qualifies as partisanship, in an abiding passion for the truth and the public good. He has tirelessly shown Canadians how the government can spend better and waste less.

He has been attacked for this crusade. Because of those attacks, I believe that he and any Auditor General after him will need to be defended with the utmost urgency and fervour.

I worked with Mr. Desautels during my time on the defence committee. I have found him to be a man of high integrity who carefully examined the books and often demanded clarification or change.

I believe Mr. Desautels' high character is an asset required not only in the Auditor General's office, but in politics as well. We need more people who are truly concerned about the welfare of Canadians, rather than with their narrow partisan interests.

I am going to miss him. I can only hope that his successor shows the same devotion to duty and respect for the truth that Mr. Desautels has.

I wish him well in all his future endeavours, and hope he can leave an equally positive impression on his other pursuits as he has in the office of Auditor General.

Thank you, sir, for your service, and God bless.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

Now we're going to turn to Dr. Rey Pagtakhan.

Hon. Rey Pagtakhan (Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific)): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Indeed, I'm delighted to be back with your committee—a committee I once participated in as well.

Mr. Desautels, I am pleased and honoured to join my many colleagues in Parliament in paying tribute to you as our outgoing Auditor General.

I have had the privilege and honour of having worked with you for over a decade in my close to 13 years in Parliament. We interacted many times in many ways on the various standing committees of Parliament where I served and where you appeared as a witness. In particular, though, I remember my two years as a member of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

You have always impressed me, Mr. Desautels, with your sense of duty. That reflects the seriousness with which you took your responsibility to our citizenry. I have observed in you the discernment of mind and discipline in action that have earned you the respect of Parliament and of all Canadians.

As our nation's Auditor General, you have been steadfast in your vision of our federal government as accountable, transparent, effective, and efficient. Indeed, we can safely say that the workings of the Government of Canada have been enriched by your contribution. Be assured that Canadians can take pride in that.

In your reflections, Mr. Desautels, you indicated that during your tenure you had seen improvements in the workings of government, but at the same time you cautioned against complacency. To me, that reflects that you will always be truly an Auditor General.

Indeed, colleagues, Mr. Desautels has left us with a sense of enduring optimism and renewed confidence in a system of government that endeavours to better itself for the well-being of all Canadians.

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So, Mr. Desautels, I join the chorus of well-wishers who salute you today and who wish you well in your future endeavours. You have been a true parliamentary friend, a true servant of our country. Allow me to say, with all Canadians, thank you, merci beaucoup.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Chair: Thank you, Dr. Pagtakhan.

Now we're going to turn to Diane Ablonczy.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For some reason, Mr. Desautels, my fondness for auditors has grown over the last year, but you hold a special place in my regard. I am pleased to be here to let you know how much we appreciate you, and to give you a good send-off.

In our system of government we have very few checks and balances—not enough, certainly, in my view and the view of many people. You have proven to be a very staunch and strong check, and one who has served the people of Canada extremely well.

Whenever I've seen you answering questions in committee meetings and on television—especially about this last report you released—the phrase that came to me was “grace under fire”. Even though you had some tough and often hostile questions directed at you, you were always extremely professional, calm, and thoughtful in your responses. That takes a special skill, and I commend you on that.

I have also talked with and worked with some of your staff, Mr. Desautels, and they are a real credit to your leadership. You have a very fine group around you, and often the team is a reflection of the leader. So you have much to be proud of there. The people supporting you here today are behind you, and we appreciate them as well.

As you probably know after ten years, respect is a rare commodity in this arena—both for members of Parliament and members of the public service. But you have it in very large measure, and you can take a lot of pride in that. The respect you hear today is very sincere.

We also want to pay tribute to your wife Shirley. Those of us in public office know the tremendous benefit of a mate who is strong, who gives good advice, who comforts us after a tough day, and who provides the good balance that we get from our partners. I know that your wife must be very pleased that you have at least a short opportunity for some personal time together before your next endeavour. I'm sure it's well deserved on both your parts.

I once heard a phrase to the effect that civil servants are neither civil nor do they know the meaning of service. That's certainly not true in your case. You have brought to the public service, the civil service, the very deep regard it should have.

As representatives of Canadians, we want you to know how we've appreciated your contribution. It will be missed, but you have done a good office for your country. You should take real pride and satisfaction in that. Our good wishes follow you into the future, where we know you will distinguish yourself even further.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mrs. Ablonczy.

I'm going to revert back to Dr. Pagtakhan for a few seconds.

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would just like to acknowledge Mrs. Desautels, and to add: thank you indeed for sharing your husband with Parliament, with all of us. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Dr. Pagtakhan.

Now we're going to turn to Mr. Jeannot Castonguay.

[Translation]

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.): I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Desautels, I certainly cannot say that I am speaking to you as a parliamentarian who has known you because I'm still very green in this place. However, I must say that as a Canadian citizen, I did get to know you through the media.

I tip my hat to you most sincerely because you brought a great deal of respect to this House. That is something I learned thanks to you. I think that I echo the views of the citizens of my riding. It may be due to some extent to the example you set for me that I decided it was possible to work in Ottawa, in the Parliament of Canada, and do good work while keeping an eye on the big picture. As has often been said, you keep the high road.

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I thank you for the example you did set for me. I thank you on behalf of all my constituents in the riding of Madawaska—Restigouche. I wish you a pleasant retirement. I hope that I will have an opportunity to speak to you more informally some day.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Castonguay.

Now we're going to hear from Mr. Rodger Cuzner, the member of Parliament for Bras d'Or—Cape Breton.

Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, Lib.): Mr. Desautels, congratulations. This is a very pivotal point in your life and a big point for your family. I wish you and your wife all the best.

The contribution you've made to the Government of Canada, to the people of Canada, is to be admired. You're certainly recognized not only regionally, but throughout our country as a person of great honesty and integrity, with a great passion for the task you performed on behalf of the people of Canada.

You've certainly demonstrated a great respect for the interests of all Canadians. You're to be commended on that, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavours. Thank you.

The Chair: Before we ask you to respond, Mr. Desautels, we thought it would be appropriate that we have something more physical to demonstrate, a token of our appreciation for the ten years that you have been in office. So we have a small presentation here for you.

Madam Jennings, would you like to accompany me?

On behalf of the Parliament of Canada, since you are an officer of Canada, Denis, we want you to take this as a small token of our appreciation for the dedication and hard work in the service of Canada that you have delivered over the last ten years.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: Madame Desautels, on behalf of the government, this committee, and Canadians, thank you for supporting Monsieur Desautels in his role as Auditor General of Canada over the past ten years. We do appreciate it.

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Mr. L. Denis Desautels (Auditor General of Canada): Mr. Chairman, members of the House around the table, and other guests and friends, I want to thank everyone for their very kind words, and especially for taking the time to come here today and give Shirley and me such a wonderful tribute. You have exaggerated tremendously.

All I can say is that I really enjoyed the last ten years. It was difficult at times, but I can tell you that I worked hard at it, gave it my very best shot, and I have absolutely no regrets about having said yes ten years ago when this was offered to me.

I'm sincerely touched and particularly pleased to hear as well from past chairs of the public accounts committee with whom I had worked in my tenure.

[Translation]

Mr. Chairman, I too would like to thank in particular the gentleman who chaired the Public Accounts committee when I arrived in Ottawa in June 1991, that is Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier. I remember the very first committee meeting I attended after my arrival. It was customary for Mr. Gauthier to begin meetings with a statement that set out his views on the subject on the agenda. These statements were always to the point and often more challenging than my own opening statements.

Mr. Gauthier also played a very decisive role in the history of our office. We owe him somewhat our periodic reports, as he mentioned earlier, and it's largely because of him that we can now report to Parliament four times a year instead of one, as was the case before 1995. That gives us an opportunity to table more timely reports and allows the system to respond and suggest corrective action much more quickly than when things were different.

Mr. Chairman, I would also like to thank the staff of the Public Accounts committee; the clerks of the committee that I have known, Ms. Clairette Bourque, Mr. Bernard Fournier, and now Mrs. Sirpaul; researchers Brian O'Neal and Jean Dupuis as well as Michelle Salvail and Richard Domingue, who have now both joined the staff of the Auditor General's office.

I would also like to extend very special thanks to people whose services are not always acknowledged, amongst others our interpreters, and in particular Ms. Lucette Carpentier who's been helping this committee for a long time. I'd also like to thank the microphone operators and various messengers who help us constantly.

[English]

As I said last week at a reception hosted by the two speakers, I came into this post with a lot of respect for parliamentarians and for those who devote their career to serving the public. Over those ten years, my views have not changed; in fact, they've become stronger. Even though at times one can take exception with certain positions or even feel frustrated or discouraged, at the end of the day, I have a lot of respect for those who want to make their country work, want to make our country work, and who have the courage to throw their hat in the ring or make personal sacrifices. It's because of such people that we have in Canada institutions that generally work quite well.

We have good institutions, and we must do our best to make sure that they are as efficient and effective as possible.

[Translation]

To keep these institutions in good health, however, two essential ingredients are needed, that is transparency and accountability. Getting there and being among the best in the world is not always easy. Collectively, as a country, we must also be capable of self- criticism. There are many things which we can and must do better, in my opinion.

• 1700

That is in part the role of the Auditor General; he's there to help the government and the institutions be more self-critical. For its part, the Public Accounts committee continues our work by bringing our reports to life and by producing its own reports. Thus, together, I think that we can play a very important role.

I would therefore like to thank all members of the Public Accounts committee as well as members of other committees with whom I have had an opportunity to work in the past for their support and I can assure you that as far as I am concerned, I will continue to follow your progress with great interest.

[English]

Speaking of good institutions, as we just heard from Mrs. Ablonczy, I cannot overstate the quality of the support I received from the tremendous people who work in the office of the Auditor General, both present and past. They produced really good work, which has enabled me to report to Parliament the way we have over the last ten years. They've always come through and delivered whenever there were tough issues to examine. They believe in what they do, and they're very principled.

I think we worked quite well together. We made a good team, and we got along well and created with each other, I think, a pleasant and stimulating work environment. A coach, whether it be hockey or soccer, would not look very good unless he had the right players, and I had excellent players, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

Now, I could not leave you without a few words about my second conscience, my wife, Shirley. She supported me and encouraged me and always allowed me to focus on my work even if that meant that too often I was buried into my files on evenings and weekends. I've had an unique opportunity to serve my country and my fellow citizens, but I did not do it alone; Shirley did it with me and I thank her for that most sincerely.

[English]

Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the future holds. I've taken the resolution not to make any rash decisions about my future plans and take a few months of rest and then analyse my options. But you can rest assured that I'll continue to be a very interested observer of what happens in this Parliament.

I've attended, I think, somewhere between 225 and 250 committee meetings over the last ten years. You cannot invest so much of yourself in an institution without continuing to stay interested in it for a long time. So I will be really interested in seeing what continues and what goes on in this Parliament and in this institution.

Thank you very much to all of you.

[Translation]

Thank you very much.

[English]

The Chair: Well, as you can see, working right until the very last minute. That was almost a report that you gave us on advice for the committee from here on after you depart, so that we'll stay on the straight and narrow, Mr. Desautels.

We've heard lots of compliments today, and each and every one is sincere, heartfelt, and genuine. I concur and add my sentiments to each and every one as well.

Not only have you been the Auditor General of Canada, but you have represented Canada around the world, in INTOSAI. We travelled down to Washington together, and I could see from the reception that we had there that you are held in very high esteem, not only in Washington but by other international institutions around the world. You have worked on behalf of Canada and Canadians to further the work of the Auditor General to ensure that not only are Canadians well served by a government that is focused, transparent, and open, providing the services that Canadians need, but also to play a role on the international stage, where we do know that in many countries the services provided by their governments fall far short of what we have here in this country. How blessed we are that we have a government that is largely open and transparent, and by Transparency International's ratings we are about the best there is. But as you know, there's always room for improvement.

• 1705

The staff, the researchers, Brian O'Neal and Jean Dupuis, our clerk, Santosh Sirpaul, and I see that Bernard Fournier, the former clerk, is here also, add their sentiments to the remarks that have been made here this afternoon.

Mrs. Desautels, Shirley, we thank you so much for supporting Denis over the last ten years. He has worked extremely hard, and I'm sure that at times it has been quite frustrating for him. But when there is a spouse by one's side, it always makes the road easier and more enjoyable. You have supported Denis over the years. He's acknowledged that, and we want to acknowledge that too. Thank you so much for your contribution.

As you mentioned, Denis, your work could not be achieved without the support of the great staff that you have behind you. I know, speaking on behalf of the public accounts committee, that we appreciate very much the work you have done and the support you have received from your staff. I do hope that you don't have much on your agenda tomorrow, being your very last day, but I do hope that you would take the time to let your staff—all your staff—know how much the public accounts committee appreciates the work they have done in supporting your work and supporting Parliament. Without them, and without the rigorous attention they have paid to the reports that have been developed, it would have been not nearly as beneficial. You know the benefit, and that good staff are indispensable. I know, as a member of Parliament, members of Parliament are only good if they have good staff behind them, and I'm sure you would say the same thing.

I started off by saying “this is your life”. We have heard from members of Parliament on all sides of the House. I introduced them by name and by riding, but I didn't mention them by party because I didn't think that was appropriate today. I thought it was more appropriate that parliamentarians recognize the contribution you have made. So we bring the gavel down on a meeting, on a chapter, on an era, but you go with our best wishes.

As you said, you're going to take some time off, but you're going to have another career. You're going to be in demand, I know, by many institutions that will appreciate the calibre of the person you are. So go with our blessing, and we thank you again for all you've done for Canada.

We'll have a small reception and refreshments at the back, so after the meeting is adjourned we can repair there.

This meeting stands adjourned.