:
Thank you, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 46.
Before I go into the orders of the day, I just want to bring the committee up to speed about next Tuesday. We have secured the 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. timeframe. You will be getting a notice, if you haven't already received it. We're waiting for a response from the minister on our request to appear. In the meantime, we have confirmed that we will proceed with the aviation safety and security aspect of our discussions. CATSA and CUPE have confirmed their attendance for that timeframe. You'll get a notice in the mail. We will proceed with normal business again at 3:30 that afternoon.
Also, just for the advice of the committee, joining us today we have a group from the Carleton University School of Journalism and Communication. They're sitting at the back.
We welcome you, and hopefully you'll enjoy your day.
With that, we will move to the orders of the day pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, December 8, 2010, Bill .
When we left the last meeting we had department officials and the minister. The department officials have been invited back. Joining us today is Luc Bourdon, director general of rail safety, and Carla White-Taylor, director, rail safety secretariat.
I understand you have an opening comment you'd like to start with, and then we'll move to questions and answers.
And thanks to the members for having us here today again.
The minister, on Tuesday, touched on some of the key issues in the bill, and I'd like to take about four or five minutes to let you know what we've done with all the recommendations that were generated by the Railway Safety Act review panel—the 56 of them—and the 14 that were generated by SCOTIC.
We acted on them as soon as we got them, and the first thing that Rail Safety did was create an advisory council on railway safety with the companies, Transport Canada, and the Canadian Labour Congress. That was a recommendation of the Railway Safety Act review panel. So far we have had six meetings since that committee was put together, and that has proven to be very effective to communicate with all of our stakeholders. On the committee we have Transport Canada, the unions, the companies, the shippers, the suppliers, the provinces, the municipalities, as well as some observers.
We also created a Railway Safety Act review steering committee with the industry, Transport Canada, again, and the Canadian Labour Congress. The first thing we did was look at all the recommendations that did not require legislative amendments. They were divided among six working groups. All the working groups were also composed of union members from each of the railway unions, management, and the railway.
Just to give you an idea of what these committees have been able to achieve, one of the first committees we put together was on a safety management system. There have been several recommendations in the Railway Safety Act review and some recommendations as well done by SCOTIC. One of the recommendations that was provided by SCOTIC was to create a better tool to assist our stakeholders and Transport Canada to better manage rail safety. Carla has a copy of what has been published, which has been given to all our stakeholders. So we did publish some guidelines that are being used right now by all our stakeholders to help us with the implementation of a safety management system.
There were also some recommendations by SCOTIC for a non-punitive provision, which is in Bill , as well as better employee involvement, which is also covered in the bill.
There is also one chapter dealing with information collection, analysis, and dissemination. We put together a working group, again, with unions, the railway, and Transport Canada, and it came up with some indicators that from now on will be shared between industry and the regulator through a data portal. We were fortunate to get about $2.3 million to enable the technology to get that done for us.
We also created a third working group—operation and proximity—that deals, among other topics, with fatigue, which was also a recommendation of SCOTIC . We recently published some fatigue guidelines to help train crews deal with fatigue-related issues. That was done, again, in cooperation with unions and management as well as with Dr. Patrick Sherry from the University of Denver, who helped us with this.
Also, a recommendation from SCOTIC was to enhance training. The industry has filed new rules with us for enhanced training for safety-sensitive positions.
Terms of closing crossings was also in the recommendations. We're dealing with industry to come up with a list of crossings that can be closed.
Regarding Operation Lifesaver, two of the members have raised some issues with respect to crossings and trespassing. We've added five engineers to deal with crossings, and $28 million was added to enhance crossings. We also added five outreach coordinators to assist us with education and awareness with respect to crossings and trespassing.
[Translation]
As for innovation and technology, there were a series of recommendations. Some came from the committee, others, from the panel. We created a new structure for managing these recommendations.
The working group, made up of transport company unions, has generated 25 new recommendations that have been scheduled to be carried out over the next few years. We were lucky to receive an additional $5.3 million to invest in technology. We also formed alliances with some universities and some other countries that share the same concerns as we do.
The fifth working group looked at environmental protection. Among other things, it focused on the best emergency measures for products that are not considered dangerous goods, but that may be dangerous for the environment. And the group made suggestions to us. Also, there are provisions in Bill that require railways to provide Transport Canada with environmental plans that will be checked.
The last working group focused on the process for establishing rules. Once again, these are the same stakeholders who are at the table, and they worked on creating a better methodology for establishing rules, a better participation of unions and better existing rules.
[English]
I came before this committee about three years ago and talked about some new technology we had acquired, the track assessment vehicle, that would help us enhance our capacity to do track inspection. We got two more of those vehicles. Right now we have up to five vehicles. So we're better equipped than we've ever been in the past to perform track inspection.
I just want to make sure you fully understand that all the recommendations in these two reports were not left on the shelf to collect dust. Most of the recommendations have been addressed.
In closing, I'd like to emphasize, on behalf of everybody in Rail Safety at Transport Canada, that we firmly believe that although we've received many tools to do a better job, Bill is probably the last one we would need in order to have a full tool kit.
On that, I'll turn it over to you, Mr. Chair.
:
First of all, I'd like to say that the three urban transit authorities we're dealing with, which are currently under provincial jurisdiction, are very safe companies, and they're definitely not operating in an unsafe manner.
However, it all goes through the railway operating certificate. So you can't see that as a permit that each railway will need to obtain in order to operate on federal track. Most of what may be required in the railway operating certificate these commuter railways already have in place.
The second thing that is really important to note is that in Bill , under proposed section 12, concerning the railway operating certificate, there is a provision under proposed paragraph 17.9(1)(c) that allows the Governor in Council to exempt some persons from the railway operating certificate. So there was already provision at the time we were going to do the regulation to exempt some class of persons.
I honestly would be pretty uncomfortable right now to decide who should or should not require an ROC based on their current safety record. I don't think that should be perceived as a reward, that if you have a good safety record you don't need an ROC.
The legislation, the way it is now, already has some provisions that would allow them to be exempt at the time we do the regulation.
:
It depends on the contract established between the two. If CN is no longer using the entire line and it rents it instead of selling it, it will depend more on a clause in the contract than on a clause in the bill. If CN says that it will continue to own the line and maintain it, but that someone is operating on that line, at that point, it would be CN who would be responsible for the maintenance.
I want to answer the question that you asked: why were they not exempted? One of the things that the panel heard from some of the people responsible for these commuter trains is that they wanted to be able to establish their own rules with the minister, and they wanted to request exemptions to the existing rules.
At the moment, they must conform to the rules of Canadian Pacific and Canadian National. In some cases, they determined that these rules were inadequate. They came to see me and said that they wanted an exemption to that kind of rule. We had to respond that, since their railway was not under federal jurisdiction, they could not request an exemption or establish their own rules, and they would have to negotiate with CN and CP, who had to agree to present an exemption to us. In a lot of these cases, this didn't happen.
One of the reasons we included them was to allow them to be able to make their own rules. That's what they asked the panel for and it's also what they have asked me for in the past, particularly AMT.
:
What you call garbage on the rights-of-way has been an issue for many years. Unless it creates a safety hazard for train crews or people, there's very little we can do.
There's provision under proposed section 47 of the bill, under clause 37, and in your binders, I think, that deals with the environmental plan that will have to be submitted by railways, and that will be audited by Transport Canada.
How deep will we go with that? I don't know.
But in reference to what you're talking about, in the past, unless it could create a safety hazard, we did not have any authority in the act to take action.
To be honest, I don't know whether, when we work on the regulations for the environmental plan, that will be in it or not.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the committee for having us here. As you know, it was on short notice.
I also want to thank the committee for the heavy-load lifting they did to help this bill appear before us--especially the government for bringing it forward in a timely manner.
We support the bill. We urge its fast passage, hopefully in the next 40 days, if possible, or whatever time. We think it came from a lot of work--from this committee, through the RSA review, and also from the department and staff. We'd like to commend Monsieur Bourdon and his staff, who always do an excellent job.
Basically, we see just four small areas for improvement. We've given you four small amendments.
The first one is just the standard, stock teamster amendment at this point--it actually is a teamster/Conservative amendment, a party amendment, or from the government--and that's to allow the committee to review the legislation for safety reasons. It appeared in the TDG Act, and also in the aviation act; though it died, we'd love it to come back.
All it is, basically, is a check on the regulatory process to make sure that the regulatory bodies we have in place always know that Parliament can have an overview and have a look. It is working in other areas, and we just urge you to agree to bring it forward again.
The second one is quite simply to urge you to have Rail Safety at Transport Canada be one of the contacts, one of the possibilities, to report safety conditions. No matter what you might hear from Monsieur Bourdon and the companies, etc., there's a climate of fear out there. Brother McDavid was fired for not having his boots correctly tied. We have all sorts of cases, especially with CN, where they have a less-than-modern view of labour relations. These are not companies that you're going to call and make a complaint to.
Right now, the way it is handled is actually through Rail Safety. Either we contact Rail Safety or the transport board calls Rail Safety. So let's just cut out the middleman and let's go right to the people who do the job--because they do. And they should be congratulated for doing it so well.
The next one is an issue that was raised regarding the RTCs, the control of the rails. Going back to 1999, in fact, CP Rail attempted to do exactly what some American companies are trying to do--namely, to switch their operations from the United States to Canada--and the answer was “no”. If you look at the regulations, which we can get to you or your people can get, it's basically for security reasons. That was the reason given. If you say it's a trade issue, trade is supposed to be fair trade, so that if they can get the work, we can get the work. We can never get the work, period.
I think as we move forward with the North American perimeter system, we should be cognizant that it's up to the Canadian government to have security taken care of up in Canada. These people eventually receive transport security clearance, probably under the TDG Act or some other act. That's the way it should be.
The last one deals with scheduling rules. You've heard of the fatigue management systems. Well, I'll be honest with you; it would be great if they were put in place, but they're not. The truth of the matter is that these issues are dealt with by collective bargaining. It comes through a long line, from the Hinton disaster and the review they're after....
The truth of the matter is that we've almost had two national strikes over one issue: scheduling rules. And I'll be blunt; I'll give thanks to the minister, to the department, to the FRMS people over there, for all the work they did to help us get an agreement. But we don't believe that scheduling rules are something that necessarily should be set by collective bargaining, especially putting the issue of potential strikes on the line.
If you like my paragraph 47.1(1)(c), I actually stole that language from the aviation act, which I worked on with the minister and Mr. Jean and others. That's where I stole it from.
Scheduling rules should conform with fatigue science, period. I think if we put this in the act, we may not actually ever have to use it, but it will force companies to actually deal with the issue instead of just talk about it.
With that, I'll pass it on to Mr. Brehl to continue our comments.
Members of the committee, Mr. Chairman, honoured guests, good afternoon.
This is not my strong suit, so bear with me. I'm a track monkey by trade, and public speaking isn't my strength.
My name is William Brehl, and I'm the elected national president of the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, Maintenance of Way Employees Division, the TCRCMWED. I'm also an active and participatory member of the Advisory Council on Rail Safety, better known as ACRS.
Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to speak to Bill , and more importantly, to the safety of railway operations in Canada.
The TCRCMWED represents roughly 4,000 Canadian men and women who inspect, maintain, repair, and build the track and structures of Canadian Pacific as well as those on almost two dozen short lines, including three that are owned and operated by CN.
For this reason, we are positioned like no one else to truly appreciate the importance of rail safety in this country. We are on the ground—in the trenches, so to speak—working and fighting to ensure safe rail infrastructure. We see its failings, and we can properly recommend solutions. We fight for rail safety as if our lives depend on it, because often they do.
Here it is not even two months into 2011, and the Transportation Safety Board statistics show that over 106 derailments have been reported so far this year. At least 33 of them involved dangerous commodities. Thirty-one crossing accidents have been reported to the TSB over the last six weeks, and Canadian railway operating rule violations such as exceeding or operating without authority, which basically means that a train has entered into unprotected track—the leading cause of on-track collisions—number in excess of 20 reported.
Once you stop and actually look at the numbers, no matter what spin the railroads put on their safety records, you realize the potential for disaster that is lurking out there.
As Teamsters, as railroaders, and as Canadian citizens, we welcome any and all improvements to the regulations, which are designed to protect our membership and the country as a whole from the hazards of unsafe railway operations.
They can and they must run safe, profitable lines. We must ensure through proper regulations and enforced compliance that the railroads put safety as the first priority instead of simply depending on good luck and gravity to keep their trains on the track.
Therefore, we support Bill . We have also submitted four amendments, which we see as enhancing the bill and allowing it to be more effective. One of them, non-punitive reporting, I would like to briefly speak on now.
To truly get a handle on the root cause of accidents or systemic failures, you need accurate, comprehensive data. Breakdowns in procedure, as well as trends, may not be recognized if the information is lacking. That's why the reporting of all incidents is a necessity.
Railroads have long fostered a climate of fear—which we've talked about in this room quite a bit today—amongst their workers. As a 30-year CP maintenance of way employee, I can attest that this is nothing new. Rules violations are disciplined heavily. One accidental rules violation could lead to your dismissal. But the fear within our membership is not only of reporting their own errors. Often it is of reporting other contraventions to anyone beyond their immediate supervisor, even if they believe that their supervisor is covering the contraventions up. The optics within our ranks are that if you report something the railroad doesn't want reported, you will be punished. Punishments can range from less than desirable work assignments right up to discipline and/or dismissal.
As long as that underlying fear is there, we do not believe that proposed subparagraph 47.1(1)(a)(iv) will achieve the policy objective. We firmly believe that more is needed. Not only is non-punitive reporting a necessity to ensure the violations are getting reported, but we must have confidential reporting as well to alleviate these fears of hidden reprisals. We believe we should add to proposed section 47.1 our amendment to allow complaints directly to Transport Canada Rail Safety.
In the end, there is no downside to confidential third-party reporting, especially when you look at the positive benefits. After all, if the goal is to gather information to assist in the enforcement of the regulations as well as for the identification of problems, then it just makes sense to remove all of the roadblocks.
Allow the real railroaders the freedom and the security to honestly speak without fear of punishment or reprisal. That alone will move the issue of rail safety miles closer to resolution.
I'd like to thank the committee for their work on our behalf, and also for allowing me the chance to voice the concerns of our membership.
Thank you.
:
Thank you, Phil and Bill.
First, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the committee for giving us this opportunity to speak here today on behalf of the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, the TCRC.
My name is Rob Smith, and I have been recently elected to the position of national legislative director for the TCRC. I am also a qualified locomotive engineer and have worked in that capacity at Canadian Pacific Railway.
The TCRC represents approximately 10,000 members, which include conductors, rail traffic controllers, shopcraft workers, motor coach operators, customer service ambassadors, and locomotive engineers across Canada.
We are here today to briefly discuss Bill , proposed amendments to the Railway Safety Act.
Our organization fully supports this bill as we feel it will address the safety and security concerns of our TCRC membership.
The TCRC welcomes the proposed bill as it will strengthen Transport Canada's enforcement powers to impose monetary penalties for safety and environmental contraventions by the railways. This is an essential element to ensure railway safety for all stakeholders.
The proposed bill also includes local railway companies that operate on federally regulated tracks governed under the rules of the Railway Safety Act. This also addresses an area of concern for our organization as we represent workers in these local railway companies.
The TCRC supports the proposed bill's addition of non-punitive internal reporting, the process for our membership, as well as additional accountability of the railways under the safety management systems.
In closing, I would like to again thank the committee for the opportunity to speak on behalf of our TCRC union members, who, as previously mentioned, are in full support of this bill. We urge you to support our position and have this bill passed in the interest of rail safety and operations throughout.
:
Mr. Chair, I would like to thank President William Brehl, my friend Phil Benson, and Mr. Smith for coming, and not only for coming here but in fact for the work you do. Any time a bill has come to the committee, you have always taken a leadership role.
Will, you are a great ambassador here on the Hill. I thank you for doing that.
On the other hand, it's very emotional for me when you raise the issue today of the workers. I came to this country in 1984 not speaking a word of English. I went through working with unions, to being a professional, to being a manager, to having my own business, and to today, sitting here representing the constituents of Newton—North Delta.
One thing I noticed is that if workers can go to their respective employment places without fear of being fired, they will be able to perform better. If that sword is hanging, you won't see that output there. Plus, it's a health and safety risk to their personal lives and to many other things.
Today you raise this issue. It's a very good issue. In fact, I already raised it with Transport Canada.
Bill, I would like to ask you about this, because I have had some interaction with your members, the Teamsters unions, in the Vancouver area, and I have heard similar complaints or similar concerns. Your members are concerned when it comes to non-punitive reporting to the companies without fear of retaliation, like being fired.
Do you agree that this is still out there?
Thank you for your presentation. I also want to congratulate you on your excellent research service. That wasn't ironic, on the contrary. In addition to supporting certain proposals, you are suggesting amendments to improve the act. You said at the start that you were in favour of the act, and we are taking good note of that. I also want to congratulate you on suggesting four amendments.
In a previous life, I worked in the pulp and paper industry. I was in charge of industrial relations, and I must admit, I was a lousy boss. I was on the side of management, but the union representatives respected me. I suppose that you see, in your facilities, in the various workplaces, signs with the words "safety first". This motto must always be posted. Everyone supports this principle. It's fine to talk about "safety first", everyone would like to be canonized as a saint at the end of their life on earth—I don't want to get into a religious debate, which should please the conservatives, who were starting to get worked up—but, unfortunately, they do not always behave accordingly.
I would like you to tell me about the working relationships with railway companies when it comes to health and safety. How do the committees operate, in general? I suppose there must be joint health and safety committees. There are management representatives and workers' representatives.
Something you said in your presentation surprised me. You don't mess around. You said "Rail Companies have fostered a climate of fear on the job sites...."
[English]
Rail companies have fostered a climate of fear on the job sites....
[Translation]
That might perhaps explain why you want this legislation adopted. It would give your members more protection.
So, how is it going on the health and safety side?
:
There are 6,000. And the way the grievance procedure works in the railway, you and I will be retired before that grievance is heard, if your number is 6,001.
A climate of fear is what we've called it. It's a style of management that says they're going to change our lives and threaten our jobs and we'll do whatever they want us to do, without complaint. That's the way they run their company.
I'll pass it on to my friends, who will have more direct.... Mr. Brehl looks after CP more than CN, but I'm sure Mr. Smith will have some direct stories.
When I first talked about Brother McDavid, who was fired for not having his boot laces correctly tied when leaving a cab to check out, some MPs told me I was a liar and I had made it up. I proceeded to bring them the case of Brother McDavid. I told him it would make him a poster boy. He was returned to work with all demerits removed, with interest pay--and you know the results of that. The company is willing to pay that to get their absolute control over membership.
Thank God we have the Teamsters union, because their answer is no.
When you ask these companies politely and nicely to do things...these are not companies like those in the air world who have a more mature relationship. These companies are not particularly friendly to workers. And quite bluntly, if they treat us that way, I'm sure they treat their customers the same way.
I'm shocked. If I were a shareholder I would be upset. You're absolutely correct that workers who are happy, who feel they have a place, are more productive and make more money for a company. I just wonder how much money those companies are leaving on the table for the shareholders.
:
It's a very important question.
The rest rules and work rules that Mr. Bourdon was talking about are absolutely laughable by modern fatigue science.
Teamsters Canada took the lead in helping the previous government move forward in the hours of service of trucking, which are still a little bit too long. However, the rules in there are compliant with fatigue science. It's just too long a day.
I'm currently representing Teamsters on a committee examining fatigue management for pilots. I will tell you, they're light years ahead.
The main problem, when I hear from the leadership in the union, is scheduling. That's why we address scheduling. It's not always the hours they work; it's the hours they have to wait.
I have a dear friend, and I was visiting his house. He was watching a computer—and this is what happens. You're supposed to go out at midnight, and then it's 2, then 4, then 6, then 8, then 10. Do you go back to bed? You never know.
By the time you show up to work, you could have been up all day. That's why we almost had two strikes trying to get scheduling rules, something the companies said, when they were here, that they're willing to do. Mr. Bourdon is saying they're willing to do it. So how come we have to almost push them to a national strike to get it? It's the scheduling rules.
We propose windows, so a person would be available for four or six hours, whatever the period was, and then they're off the clock. We offered to do it with the company at no charge. No standby, no nothing. Why? This is the issue for rails: fatigue.
Everybody ignored it. You didn't. Thank God this committee didn't do it. You did one bang-up job. All we're trying to do is finish it off and give some legislative authority to push the minister if the companies don't want to do it.
I'm very glad you asked the question. It is a really important issue, and I'm so sorry that your friend died. But it is not unique. Accidents happen with people.
And I want to thank you all for joining us today.
I really appreciate the work you've done here. The issues that have been raised by the other committee members fit very well with what you're saying here. I mentioned earlier about the need for oversight of regulations. I like that. I think that's an excellent thing that Parliament has a responsibility for. The bureaucrats have said, give us a toolbox and we'll take care of the problem. Well, there's a lot more to good legislation than giving somebody some wrenches and a spanner. We need to know how those are being used. We need to know that. And without seeing those regulations, you can't get to the truth of it.
So I really appreciate that idea, and we'll certainly look at seeing how we can put that forward in an amendment.
Second, the previous witnesses said the idea of the internal reporting came out of this committee. Well, it might have come out of this committee before I was here, but I haven't heard any evidence in front of me over aviation that suggests to me that this internal reporting is a good idea. In fact, the opposite seems the case; that's not working out very well. If we can't learn from the mistakes we make, how are we to move ahead? I think that's another one we could definitely support.
The two other items, certainly, once again, are excellent positions.
I do support what you've brought here in front of me, and I really think they're all very sensible and sane amendments. But what really bugs me is the number of deaths we have of people on the rail lines and at the level crossings. I asked the minister about the money they were putting in the system to upgrade the level crossings. Is that anywhere near adequate, in your judgment?
:
I'd say, to give credit, that it was probably the first new money we saw in years. So we'll say thank you very much for giving us any money. It's a real positive.
You have to remember, too, that there's a difference. As you start getting near cities, especially near towns and cities, municipalities have much more say about what goes around. For example, they do not want us to operate the whistle because it keeps people awake. Well, exactly how am I supposed to warn somebody to get off the track?
So when you're talking about fencing, that may, in fact, be a city ordinance or a municipal ordinance. It may be a decision of the city to put fencing in. As cities grow around railways, is it necessarily the railway's responsibility to build a fence? It is the government's? Is it the municipality's?
I'm not sure if it's this body that is supposed to--
:
Thank you for the question.
Yes, we've expressed a lot of concerns in the past. Before we get to the brickbat, we'll give out the credit. The Railway Safety Act advisory council, the way it was going to be set up, was going to be a disaster. I'll give full credit to the minister and to our parliamentary secretary here for bringing in a procedure and a process that I think, in the long run, will produce exactly the same results as we've seen in the transportation of dangerous goods. We're not there yet.
Just like in the TDG world and the aviation world before, comments I've had from senior bureaucrats are that the amendment we got in other bills was one of the best checks they had. What they said, very simply, Mrs. Gallant, to the senior people was, “Yes, we could do that, but those damn Teamsters are going to get in front of a transport committee. And what's the public going to think about it?”
It's one of those little tools in our tool box. I hope we never have to come back to this committee for safety. It's just in our tool box for making the regulatory process work better.
:
No. I think the RTCs are all Teamsters, and we have no concern at all about the RTC jobs.
As a matter of security, and I think as a matter of sovereignty for Canada, we simply can't allow American companies to do what Canadian companies cannot do in the United States. The reason they've given is security. No Canadian RTC may go past 10 miles if not grandfathered before 1998 or 1999. They may not do it. CP Rail tried to move RTC jobs from, I believe, Vermont to Canada, and the answer was no, for security purposes. We kind of feel that when we trade with people.... It's not a tit-for-tat, but it's fair all around.
Also, procedurally, if we move towards this perimeter security system and security protocol.... I think, as Canadians, we've always championed that security be done in Canada by Canadians. I really think we should have a Canadian doing it. It should be someone who is secured by Canadians and who is responsible to this committee and to Canada, not to a foreign country, no matter how great a friend it is. And it is a great friend.
:
I can pass it to Rob, but I'll answer quickly.
The best line I heard on this was when a department official went to examine a fatigue management program for a company. The company's response was that it was in the filing cabinet. He asked if it was implemented. The company said they were told they had to have one; they weren't told they had to implement it.
The truth of the matter is fatigue in a railway is recognized. Mr. Harrison Hunter previously stated to his shareholders that fatigue is the greatest cause of accidents. When he said that, we were in the middle of negotiations where they were saying we're not going to deal with scheduling rules.
We've almost had two national strikes, not over money, not over conditions, not over pensions, not over anything except scheduling rules. People are falling asleep.
We know this from medical science—people die younger when they're fatigued. It's a medical issue. It's an issue for our health care system that we have to pay for. It's something that should be dealt with.
This is our way of doing it—I hope not in an aggressive, regulatory manner. This may not be the right place, but if a clause like this is in the bill, it will make companies aware that they have to deal with it.
We'll deal with it tomorrow. We'll do a memorandum of understanding. We'd do anything to have proper scheduling rules.
I'll tell you how silly it gets. Half of their employees have scheduling rules, I think maybe two-thirds, and maybe a half or a third don't. It depends on what part of the country you're in. It depends on what craft you belong to. It's not even that they're not doing it. It's just a matter of obstinance—they don't want to do it.
But they came before this committee, I believe, in 2007--at least I was informed--and said they were going to deal with it because it was a fatigue issue. It's 2011. Let's move forward.
All we want is your help. This clause we're talking about is just to help us get what we should have.
:
Safety management systems are something the Teamsters and I have railed against for probably the better part of ten years. In fact, I think rail has safety management systems. They were a total failure. That's why the bill is here.
According to the air people, they're going to safety management systems, but they're not going to make the mistakes that rail made.
I think in a perfect world you don't need SMS in legislation. I'll be honest with you. I'm going to support it, but I'll tell you why you don't need it. It's best practices. No company needs anybody to tell them to put in best practices. Safety management systems are best practices.
Here's the problem. The original SMS model was sold as deregulation. In other words, under a safety management system, you tell us we're going to be safe and we'll believe you. This bill makes sure they're audited and inspected.
That's why previously in the air act, which I really want the government to bring back, we were successful in getting amendments that stated they would be inspected.
I very much thank you for the advisory council model. I believe over time the SMS, this entire process we have, will develop. It isn't today. It isn't going to be tomorrow. I'll be honest with you, it's not going to be over the next three, four, or five years. But maybe before I retire, whenever, 10, 15, or 20 years from now, I'll be able to come and smile and say it's a great thing.
It's a good model, but you didn't have to regulate it. It should have just been done. Companies should have done it by themselves. That's the pity.
So we support it, with those caveats.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair, again.
Mr. Brehl, I was very disturbed to hear about the issues you raised, when you said train companies will fire employees for doing small things like taking photos or tying up a boot. Another issue...Mr. Tweed, as the chair of the committee, goes from Manitoba all the way to Coquitlam to talk to people, and the second they know, they question why this fellow came all the way from Manitoba to talk to them. This is very disturbing to me.
You say there is no such mechanism in place, through mutual agreement or bargaining or whatever processes you have, that gives those workers security so that they can fearlessly work in that organization.
What is it that members of this committee, where you are sitting today, can do to deal with those situations? What other situations besides these that you mentioned are there that we should be aware of and find a solution for?
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I have a fairly good example of what this would be.
If someone has a rules violation, say an engineer or one of the maintenance employees who has track protection, and he violates the CROR, the Canadian rail operating rules, and nobody knows--he doesn't tell anybody--how do you correct what caused him to break it? How do you correct where the downfall was, where the miscommunication was, and where the problem was? He won't report it, because even though it had no effect, he caught it. Say he backed up over the signal or re-railed his truck back onto the track. Nobody ever knows and he can get away with it, but he may not report it for fear that he's going to get disciplined.
I will tell you, they will discipline you right up. We have a Brown system of discipline. It's a quantum discipline system where it's progressive, and if you hit 60 Brown points, “Brownies” we call them, you're dismissed. So they'll get people sitting at 45 or 50 Brownies and basically they'll have to do whatever they're told to do, because 10 more Brownies and you're gone. It's very scary out there for our guys. They could lose their jobs in an instant, so they don't report these things.
If we have non-punitive reporting...if they blow by a signal, say, and back up—it wouldn't happen in a train because the RCT would see it. But if they did it in a high-rail vehicle and backed up again, and they reported it, then they can come out and inspect it. They can look for a root cause. They can find out why they did what they did. They can look for trends, and we'll prevent the ones where people get killed. People get killed out there, lots of them--our members, CP's employees, CN's employees, and contractors. That's why having it non-punitive is important.
Anonymous reporting directly to Transport Canada is important. Let's say you see something on the railway that you think is a systemic failure. We had one with angle bars, where wheels were hitting the angle bars that held the track together. They're not meant for that. We found that this was becoming more and more common. We realized that the railways were going right to the extremes of the wear on their wheels and on the track, and it was causing these angle bars to get hit by the wheels. We reported it to Luc Bourdon. He looked into it, and, yes, they found that they have to move down the sill of the angle bar and they have to be a little more careful with their clearances. But what happened first—and I don't mean to go on here—was that our membership saw it because they are on the ground and they brought it to their supervisor. He said, “No problem. Take a grinder out there and grind off the mark where the wheel hit it.” That was his solution.
They came to us and said, “This has to be wrong, a wheel flange hitting pig iron at 60 miles an hour has to be causing some damage”, and they started finding pieces of wheel across the system. They'd find little pieces of wheel flange. Wheels were breaking down. The latest derailment in Buckskin they say was because of a wheel bearing.
We took it on from there, like I said to Luc, but if our guys had been able to report it right away to Transport Canada rather than to their supervisor, we might have found this problem a long sooner. That's why we need it.
In our opinion, you cannot tell a company that holds your livelihood in its hands that it's making mistakes again and again, and you can't just go to Transport Canada and report them, with your name out, if it's going to cost them a lot of money. You just can't do it. That fear is in your head that they're going to get you.
Thank you to our witnesses for appearing here today, and for your written submission as well.
Mr. Brehl, you said you were a track monkey. I was a major assembler on the assembly line at Chrysler, so I appreciate a working man.
First of all, let me just say thank you for your approach. I appreciate the balance in it, giving credit where credit is due, raising this to the level where it belongs: it's a public safety issue, it's not a partisan issue, right? I think all members of the committee are very serious-minded about coming to some agreement.
Notwithstanding that, there may be some differences. On non-punitive reporting, as I recall it, with respect to the Aeronautics Act, we did have three-party consensus on that. It actually got through committee, after being filibustered by one of the parties, and then was hoisted in the House, leaving us with no opportunity to pass the bill. It had to be done through regulation. We'll see whether or not we succeed with respect to rail safety in addressing that issue as well.
I have a press release from back in June that was issued. You talked about how the legislation was “the right thing to do”. What are some of the elements—no pun intended—where we're on the right track? If you can just elaborate briefly on those, we'll use that as a starting point, and then I have a few subsequent questions.