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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on Public Accounts

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, April 20, 2004

0910

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, CPC))

Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Dennis Mills

The Chair

Mr. Dennis Mills

The Chair

Mr. Dennis Mills

0915

The Chair

Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.)

The Chair

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc)

Hon. Robert Thibault

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, CPC)

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Dennis Mills

The Chair

Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Greg McEvoy (Forensic Auditor, KPMG)

0920

The Chair

Mr. Greg McEvoy

The Chair

Mrs. Marlene Jennings

The Clerk

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ)

The Chair

Hon. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.)

The Chair

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Elizabeth Kingston)

Hon. Walt Lastewka

The Chair

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP)

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy (As Individual)

The Chair

0925

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

0930

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

0935

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

0940

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

0945

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

0950

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Hon. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.)

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

0955

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Shawn Murphy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

The Chair

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

1000

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

1005

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis

The Chair

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, CPC)

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

1020

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Isabelle Roy

1025

The Chair

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Hon. Robert Thibault

The Chair

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

1030

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Robert Thibault

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

1035

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

1040

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

1045

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

1050

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

Ms. Isabelle Roy

Hon. Walt Lastewka

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Mr. Vic Toews

The Chair

Hon. Robert Thibault

1055

The Chair

Ms. Isabelle Roy

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on Public Accounts

NUMBER 027

3rd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, April 20, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0910)

[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, CPC)): Good morning, everybody.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), we are dealing with chapter 3, “The Sponsorship Program”, chapter 4, “Advertising Activities”, and chapter 5, “Management of Public Opinion Research”, of the November 2003 report of the Auditor General of Canada, referred to the committee on February 10, 2004.

Our witness this morning, as an individual, is Ms. Isabelle Roy.

We have a couple of points of clarification and a notice of motion from Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.): I think I need the clerk of the committee.

Yesterday it was brought to our attention that the Auditor General's examination of 56 files essentially was the model or the basket that was used as the basis of this report. We note that on page 25 of chapter 3, 3.69, she stated that “In 49% of our files,”—that being 49% of the 56 files—“there was no post mortem report and therefore no evidence that the government had obtained the visibility it had paid for.”

I want to make sure that I was clear—through you, Mr. Chair, to the clerk—on the 25 projects for which there was no post-mortem, that we would have a list of those 25 projects. It's very easy for us, if those evaluations weren't in the files, that we could call the organizers and see if they existed.

The Chair: We will get that list.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Most Canadians think, Mr. Chair, that this perception that $100 million went out the back door was based on an examination of 1,987 projects, when in fact it was only 56.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Mills.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Now--

The Chair: No, no. If we could just have a little bit of decorum here, please, we have witnesses who have never been before a parliamentary committee before and it's important that we observe the normal rules of protocol.

Mr. Mills, we will get the information you've asked for.

Now, your other point of clarification.

Mr. Dennis Mills: My second point of clarification I want to address to the legal adviser to our committee, and it has to do with this custom that we've just started swearing witnesses in. I'd like to get the advice of our legal counsel.

All of us as members of Parliament can sit in here and we enjoy privilege and we can say things and cast aspirations on people without any recourse. Yet it seems to me that the people who are sitting here under oath are not on a level playing field in relation to all the special privileges we have as parliamentarians. I'd like the legal counsel to this committee to give an opinion if he thinks that is really fair treatment.

¿ (0915)

The Chair: Okay. I see a few people would like to make a contribution, but I think the clerk would like to do some thinking about this.

Monsieur Thibault.

Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, thank you for recognizing me.

Yesterday we tried to have Monsieur Gosselin make a presentation here, and apparently we weren't able to come in contact with him. I have since heard that he was doing some press media, that he was around, and he says that he wasn't invited.

It makes us look incompetent in our searches for witnesses. Perhaps you or staff could explain what happened that we missed out on him and what is being done so that we don't have that type of error in the future.

The Chair: His number's in the phone book, and I understand he was served at an address of a property that he no longer owns, which is why the invitation and the summons.... As far as I understand, there was no response to the invitation--is that correct? Therefore with the lack of a response to the invitation, we followed through with a summons. We thought the address we had was appropriate, and it turned out that it wasn't.

I presume we are continuing on to serve properly. Is that correct, Mr. LeBlanc?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc): You're partially correct. There's another aspect to it. We have been attempting for several weeks to contact Mr. Gosselin at the phone number that's publicly known, and we have had no success in contacting him.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Perhaps we could hire my vacuum cleaner salesman; he finds me every time.

The Chair: Your point is well taken, Mr. Thibault.

Mr. Toews.

Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, CPC): Mr. Chair, in response to the two issues Mr. Mills raised, very quickly, he has indicated that there are only a limited number of files.

The Chair: I'm not going to go back there.

Mr. Vic Toews: I know, I just want to put it on the record. I just want to say this and why I then make my submission. What the Auditor General said was that there was almost a total collapse of oversight mechanisms and central controls. During that period the program consumed $250 million of taxpayers' money, over $100 million of it going.... So what I'm saying, Mr. Chair, is that if we want to have a discussion--

The Chair: No, we're not going to have a discussion.

Mr. Vic Toews: — on what kinds of files—

The Chair: We're going to get the information Mr. Mills has asked for, and that's it.

Mr. Vic Toews: We can always bring the Auditor General back.

The Chair: We can always bring the Auditor General back, absolutely.

Mr. Vic Toews: As to swearing in witnesses, we've taken that approach now, and I don't see anything wrong with it. There is a recourse even with members. You will recall that when Mr. Mills indicated that he agreed he was in contempt of Parliament for releasing information, the Liberal members all voted unanimously--

The Chair: No, we're just not going to go there, Mr. Toews.

Mr. Vic Toews: — voted unanimously not to hold—

The Chair: We're not going to go there.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Mr. Toews, as to someone who called people thieves, as you did, I defy you to say it outside this room.

The Chair: If you want me to listen to your points of order, they'd better be on the subject and not be of a partisan nature. We will not have shouting across the floor.

Madam Jennings.

Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): A member of my party accidentally picked up a paper that has personal notes written in pencil. So if anyone is missing a sheet, it's here--and it's written in French, just to let you know.

[Translation]

Is it yours? Okay.

[English]

Second, there has been a deluge of papers and documents tabled before this committee, coming from government sources and witnesses before us, and I, personally, am beginning to drown under it. I'm no longer sure what I have and what I don't have, because I, as other members, do not have the luxury of having an auditor from KPMG keep track. So I would like to know whether there is a master list of all the documents, and if there is, whether it could be made available to all the members and anyone else who wishes to be clear as to what's been made available.

The Chair: Let's ask our assistant from KPMG.

Mr. Greg McEvoy (Forensic Auditor, KPMG): I know there has been a list of what has been requested and what has been received, so we can put together an inventory.

¿ (0920)

The Chair: Can you e-mail that to all members or put it on a website?

Mr. Greg McEvoy: Yes, we can.

The Chair: Put it on the website, and that way it's freely accessible to everybody. The website is www.parl.gc.ca/pacc, and hyphen e for the English or hyphen f for the French.

Madam Jennings.

Mrs. Marlene Jennings: I understand that the list contains everything this committee has asked for. Does it also contain documents that witnesses who appeared before us have tabled?

The Clerk: Yes, it will.

The Chair: Mr. Desrochers.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): I'd like to make a brief comment of about 30 seconds, Mr. Chairman. We must remember that when the Auditor General appeared, she clearly indicated that it was not up to her to provide files, but that it was up to us to ask Public Works Canada to give us the list. I've noticed that in the past little while, we've been trying to corner the Auditor General, but she was very clear on this. If we don't have the documents in hand, it's not because of the Auditor General.

[English]

The Chair: The key, as Madam Jennings pointed out, is that we're being drowned in documents, and KPMG has been working hard to try to develop some semblance of a database for them.

Mr. Lastewka.

Hon. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): I have a point of clarification. Yesterday's witness on a number of occasions said he was only contacted on Friday. We've already had some discussion about how we've tried to get hold of people and so forth, but it has also come to my attention that his lawyer had been contacted many days before. So I wonder if the clerk could explain exactly what happened. If we had known yesterday that Mr. Boulay's legal people had been contacted days or weeks before, we should have been able to tell the witness that it wasn't last-minute, as he tried to say.

The Chair: Madam Clerk, could you enlighten us?

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Elizabeth Kingston): Mr. Lastewka, we contacted Mr. Boulay and Mr. Brault and their lawyers and others following the adoption of the schedule on Maundy Thursday. The idea was that within two business days the summons would be sent. It was on Maundy Thursday that we made the contact, April 8.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: He tried to leave us with the impression that he was only contacted on Thursday, so I appreciate the clerk's information.

The Chair: As you know, we're trying to work it out so that nobody is caught without much notice, and that brings us to our witness today.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, you had a notice of motion. My apologies.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I'd like to give the committee notice of a motion that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts call on the Honourable John Gomery of the Superior Court of Quebec to appear before it to update the committee on the progress of his commission of inquiry as it relates to the Auditor General's November 2003 report.

The Chair: Okay, that's taken as a notice of motion. It will be translated, distributed, and brought forward at a later date. Thank you very much.

To our witness this morning, you've just heard that we're trying to give people as much notice as we can. I know you felt you didn't have a great deal of time, but I understand you're prepared to testify this morning. Before we start, I will ask our clerk to swear you in, because we swear in all our witnesses.

[Translation]

Ms. Isabelle Roy (As Individual): I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Your lawyer is with you, and his name again is....

¿ (0925)

Ms. Isabelle Roy: He is Rodrigue Landriault.

The Chair: Merci.

The questions we will ask this morning will be directed to you. If you feel at any time that you would like to consult your counsel, feel free to do so. We will just stop and allow you to do that. We will not direct any remarks to your counsel, nor will we expect him to speak. He may advise you. I know it can be a little intimidating at times to come before a committee such as this, but we're all ordinary people, so just relax. It won't be that painful.

I have a few things before I ask you to read the statement:

...refusal to answer questions or failure to reply truthfully may give rise to a charge of contempt of the House, whether the witness has been sworn in or not. In addition, witnesses who lie under oath may be charged with perjury.

That comes from House of Commons Procedureand Practice, Marleau and Montpetit, page 862. I read that for all witnesses.

Second, you are appearing before us as an individual this morning. Did you discuss this or have any meetings with any employees of the Government of Canada or any members of this committee or anyone else directly involved in this issue in the preparation of your statement?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

The Chair: Finally, has legal advice been provided to you or been paid for by the authorization of any official in the Treasury Board Secretariat, or the Department of Public Works and Government Services, or by any other government department or agency? In essence, is the government paying for your legal counsel?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I asked to see whether or not they could pay for legal counsel. I sent them a letter yesterday, and I'm waiting for a response. If not, I will pay for it by myself.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

You have an opening statement to read, I understand.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, I do.

The Chair: Okay, I turn the floor over to you.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Thank you.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to provide a short statement on my responsibilities relating to the time of my employment with the sponsorship program.

In February 1996 I was hired as a special assistant to the Minister of Labour and deputy leader in the House of Commons, the Honourable Alfonso Gagliano. In 1997, when Mr. Gagliano became Minister of Public Works and Government Services, I retained one of the positions as special assistant under his portfolio. I had the following responsibilities: to respond to various requests from members of Parliament or their assistants, and senior officials; manage the minister's office, budget, and other administrative functions; coordinate the nomination process of various appointments related to the minister's portfolio; manage a variety of files on behalf of the chief of staff; and inform the minister on a variety of issues related to his portfolio.

Part of my duties as special assistant to the Minister of Public Works eventually included acting as the liaison with the Communications Coordination Services Branch, which looked after the sponsorship program. In this function, I would deal with sponsorship-related issues or questions forwarded to the minister's office. Typically, such issues or questions would originate from members of Parliament or their assistants, on behalf of their constituents' events organizers. In cases where the issue or question was actually a request for sponsorship, this was brought to the minister and our chief of staff's attention, and subsequently forwarded to CCSB for appropriate action.

In May 1999, looking to enter the public service after being employed for three years as a special assistant, and as entitled under the minister's staff priorities, ruled by article 39 of the Public Service Employment Act, and after being an administrative assistant in the chief government whip's office for two years, I accepted the position of communication and strategic planning officer at an IS-5 level in the strategic communications sector, where the sponsorship program was being managed in the Communications Coordination Services Branch.

When I left the minister's office, another special assistant in the minister's office was assigned to continue the role of liaison with CCSB regarding the sponsorship program.

When I arrived at CCSB in May 1999, Monsieur Guité was the executive director of CCSB. He was to retire in August 1999. Monsieur Tremblay, who was the director of the strategic communications sector, would replace Monsieur Guité and become the acting executive director of CCSB.

Initially, my responsibilities at CCSB were to be the liaison with the minister's office regarding sponsorship issues, and to identify sponsorship projects that could best offer an opportunity for a federal representative to attend a sponsored event on behalf of the Government of Canada. Eventually, my responsibilities were enhanced to include the review of sponsorship proposals received by CCSB and to provide recommendations to the acting executive director, Monsieur Tremblay.

The final decision regarding the approval or refusal of a sponsorship event was made by the acting executive director, following his own review of the sponsorship proposal and/or any input he might have received from the minister's office. Once a final decision was made to sponsor a project, the contracting and invoicing duties were outside the scope of my responsibilities and were handled by someone other me.

My duties also consisted of reviewing visibility plans and post-mortem reports submitted by communications agencies for approved events. I also contacted other federal departments in order to develop opportunities where the Government of Canada would be able to promote its programs and services through sponsored events. I looked after the staffing and management, on average, of five employees, who also supported the sponsorship program.

Despite efforts by Mr. Tremblay—who started to make some changes regarding the management of the sponsorship program shortly after the departure of Monsieur Guité—further changes to the management of the sponsorship program were required as a result of the internal audit by PWGSC in 2000. Following that audit, I participated in the implementation of the management action plan.

In September 2001, CCSB and the Canada Information Office merged to create Communication Canada. As a result of organizational and structural changes within the sponsorship program, now under Communication Canada, my responsibilities slowly began to change.

In March 2002 I took a one-year maternity leave. When I returned to work at Communication Canada in March 2003, the sponsorship program had been completely restructured and the program was placed under probation for a year.

¿ (0930)

From March 2003 until March 2004, my new title was senior analyst. My responsibilities consisted primarily of doing analysis of sponsorship proposals and reviewing final reports of approved projects. These tasks were performed under new guidelines put in place by a new management structure and program framework under Communication Canada.

In February 2004, since the program was being cancelled and Communication Canada was being dissolved by March 31, 2004, I left Communication Canada to join the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Please be assured that you will have my full cooperation on this matter, and that I will respond honestly to the questions and to the best of my knowledge.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Roy. We do appreciate your coming forward and making your statement.

What we're going to do now is members of Parliament are going to ask you questions, and I will direct everything from here.

We'll start with Mr. Toews, for eight minutes.

I was hoping that perhaps we could wrap this up by 11 o'clock, but at that time we'll make a decision as to whether we want to continue.

Okay, eight minutes.

Mr. Vic Toews: Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Ms. Roy, for coming here today.

You indicated to us in your opening statement—and I thank you for that very informative statement—that when you were in the minister's office, Gagliano's office, as the special assistant, you dealt with sponsorship-related questions. Where there was in fact a request for a sponsorship grant or money for a sponsorship program, you would refer that to the minister's office.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Do you mean when I was in the minister's office?

Mr. Vic Toews: Yes.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was in the minister's office, we would get requests. Sometimes they would be given directly to the minister, sometimes they would be in a written format to the minister, or they could go to the chief of staff. Eventually, the requests were given to me. Whenever I'd have a request, I would discuss it with the chief of staff or the minister. I would inform them of the proposal, and then I'd be advised in terms of what type of action to take.

Mr. Vic Toews: The minister then made recommendations to you on what his preference would be in terms of the sponsorship of that particular project.

¿ (0935)

[Translation]

Ms. Isabelle Roy: In certain cases, he would inform me by saying: “Here's the request“.

[English]

He would say, “Here is the request; send it to CCSB to see whether or not this project can be approved.” In other cases he might have told me, “This type of project is something I would like to discuss with Monsieur Guité eventually.” In other cases, there were cases where he would strongly recommend that a project be approved.

Mr. Vic Toews: How often would he meet with Mr. Guité to discuss projects?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I know that they met on a regular basis. Specifically, it's hard for me to say. It depended on the number of issues they needed to deal with. I know they met on a regular basis.

Mr. Vic Toews: To talk about sponsorship files?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They may have wanted to talk about other issues, but I know they would have met regarding sponsorship files.

Mr. Vic Toews: When you say “on a regular basis”, would it be unusual for Mr. Guité to meet with the minister once a week?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: If there was a need.

Mr. Vic Toews: It wouldn't be unusual that, over a period of months, they'd meet once a week?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I don't know, specifically. On the agenda, it was more a question based on the files that I was handling. It was “refer them to CCSB, and the next time they meet, they will discuss the file”.

Mr. Vic Toews: It wouldn't be unusual, then--that's what I'm trying to get at--that Mr. Guité and the minister would meet to discuss sponsorship files? It wasn't an unusual occurrence?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, not if there was a need to.

Mr. Vic Toews: All right.

Now, when you went to work in May of 1999 for the sponsorship program, Mr. Guité was still there. You knew Mr. Guité from his contact with the minister's office. In fact, was Mr. Guité's office in the same building as the minister's office?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Vic Toews: It was in a different office, okay. In any event, you knew him from the contact, and you--

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I knew who he was, that he was running the CCSB and that he was the one looking after the sponsorship program.

Mr. Vic Toews: All right.

You then acted as the liaison with the minister's office for the sponsorship program when you were in the sponsorship program--is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As a public servant, yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: You indicated that the acting executive director...and I would assume this would be Mr. Guité and Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: At the time, yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: You indicated that he would get together all the information, including the recommendations from the minister, and make a decision on that particular file. Is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: How did the minister's recommendations come to your office?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was a public servant, you mean?

Mr. Vic Toews: Yes, when you were inside the sponsorship program.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: At CCSB we received sponsorship proposals. Proposals would come either directly through CCSB or through the minister's office. The ones that came in from the minister's office would be forwarded to our office.

Mr. Vic Toews: Would the recommendations of the minister be in written or verbal form?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Most of the recommendations from the minister's office were verbal.

Mr. Vic Toews: They were verbal.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: And that wasn't unusual for you. You had been in the minister's office, and that was the process then, and when you were in the sponsorship program, those same kinds of verbal instructions continued?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: So in that sense, there wasn't any particular change. You didn't see any difference in terms of the administration from when you were in the minister's office to when you were inside the sponsorship program.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not when I initially arrived.

Mr. Vic Toews: But you did say that later on there were some changes as a result of the audit.

There have also been some comments made in the press, particularly in the Toronto Star, indicating that Mr. Jean Pelletier regularly called Mr. Tremblay. Are you familiar with the discussions Mr. Pelletier would have with Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When he was acting executive director?

Mr. Vic Toews: That's correct.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I know they would have discussions on occasion.

¿ (0940)

Mr. Vic Toews: Were you aware of what those discussions were about, and their frequency?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: The only time I was aware was if it related to a specific sponsorship file and there needed to be action following the discussion Monsieur Tremblay may have had with Monsieur Pelletier. Then he would come and say, “Well, have we received this file?” But besides that, I wasn't aware of their discussions.

Mr. Vic Toews: So as a result of conversations between Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Tremblay, you were often asked to get a file or do something specifically on a sponsorship.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: And that wasn't unusual, was it?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Vic Toews: Who else would have...? Would Marc LeFrançois also call Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: Again, was it to discuss sponsorship files?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: How frequently would those two individuals meet?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I can't say. I don't know how frequently they met.

Mr. Vic Toews: But again, it was nothing unusual. It was the regular course of business?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: You wouldn't say, “Oh, Mr. LeFrançois called”, or “Mr. Pelletier called”?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No. Well, if Mr. Pelletier called, it wasn't frequently.

Mr. Vic Toews: Okay, it was less frequently than with Mr. LeFrançois?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Vic Toews: Okay.

Did Mr. Tremblay ever talk to you about any of the conversations he would have had with Mr. Pelletier or with Mr. LeFrançois?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As I mentioned, only if it was sponsorship-related.

Mr. Vic Toews: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Toews.

[Translation]

Mr. Desrochers, you have eight minutes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Roy, when you worked in Mr. Gagliano's office, you had highly political duties. You're also saying that from time to time, you got verbal authorization regarding certain files that came from Mr. Gagliano.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, verbal recommendations were made.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Were these verbal recommendations also made by Mr. Guité or did they come only from Mr. Gagliano?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: In what sense?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Well, you're saying that in the minister's office, verbal recommendations were sometimes made. To your knowledge, were verbal recommendations also made by Mr. Guité?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did this happen frequently?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As I told you, when Mr. Guité met with the chief of staff or the minister, they had discussions about various files and following those discussions, decisions were made.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You're telling us that when you decided to enter the public service, you entered the Communications Coordination Services Branch through a competition, is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: After having worked as a political employee for three years, you can apply to the public service. Depending on your duties and the experience you have acquired, you do have an opportunity to enter the public service.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: All right. Given that you were at the centre of sponsorship operations, was there any political influence exercised to ensure that you would get a position that was quite closely related to your duties?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not at all.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: None. You also stated that when you arrived, Mr. Guité was there. Did you take part in any meetings where files were passed between Mr. Guité and Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You weren't there when Mr. Guité gave his instructions to Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, because Mr. Tremblay held his position before I arrived.

¿ (0945)

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I'd like to get back to the internal audit report. Changes were made at that time. Did you feel that Mr. Tremblay had the same leeway as he did before in his decision-making powers, specifically because of the many comments that had been made in the internal audit report?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: There's no doubt that recommendations were made in the audit report that had to be followed and were followed. With regard to the approval of proposals, guidelines were established, whereas in the past there were none. There were certain additional points that were taken into account.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did that remove some decision-making leeway from Mr. Tremblay or did he get more power?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: It didn't change anything. Given that Mr. Tremblay had been called upon to correct certain deficiencies, did you ever feel that ministers and members of parliament exerted pressure on Mr. Tremblay in order to get him to make things work the way they used to? Did people call Mr. Tremblay to exert pressure on him so that a file would be approved sooner?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: People did exert pressure, not so that their file would be handled faster, but so that it would be approved.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Could you identify some of the people who called Mr. Tremblay's office so that certain files would be handled faster or to intervene in any way?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Members of parliament often called when there was a project they supported.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Were they also ministers who did so? Did Denis Coderre—

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did Pierre Pettigrew call?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did Claude Drouin call?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Can you recall any other ministers who contacted management?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I recall.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Was the person who called most often Mr. Coderre?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Back when Mr. Martin was a minister in Mr. Chrétien's cabinet, did he call you about certain things?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Absolutely not?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: All right. Perhaps Mr. Chrétien never called directly, but after the changes were made, were there any people in Mr. Chrétien's cabinet or office who called you to intervene in certain files?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Would you name them?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Well, there were people from his constituency office.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: In Shawinigan?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes. There were one or two people, including a Mr. Béliveau whose first name escapes me.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Michel Béliveau?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Michel Béliveau.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: And he worked at the Saint-Maurice office?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Were there people specifically from the Prime Minister's Office in Ottawa who called to intervene in sponsorship files?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Occasionally, yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Could you give us the names of these people?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: There was Derek Lee, I believe, but I'm not sure I have the right name.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Not Derek Lee, the member of Parliament?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, not at all, but I may have the wrong name. It was one person in Mr. Pelletier's office.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Was it always the same person who contacted you?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Generally, yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did Mr. Jean Carle ever contact you?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Ms. Roy, during the time you were with Mr. Gagliano, did you take part in meetings at which representatives from advertising agencies were present?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Ms. Roy, you also mentioned in your opening statement that there were people who looked after things after contracts had been authorized. Do you know the exact role of Groupe Everest, for example, of the company that had been created to plan and monitor sponsorships, or were you completely outside of such operations? Did you receive instructions to the effect that some files should be sent on quickly to certain advertising agencies?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was in the public service?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: When you held your position with Mr. Gagliano.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No I was not really involved in the selection of agencies when I was in the minister's office.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: So your work only involved acting as a liaison agent?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You were not present during discussions between Mr. Gagliano and Mr. Tremblay concerning the awarding of contracts to specific advertising agencies?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I recall.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did you know what Groupe Everest and Media/IDA Vision were doing in connection with the Sponsorship Program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was in the minister's office? Not that I recall.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: When you were working with Mr. Tremblay, were you more aware of the role of Claude Boulay and his two agencies?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I slowly learned how things worked with the agencies and what their role was with regard to payments and so forth.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: There was Groupe Everest. At that time, were you also familiar with the other advertising agencies that regularly did business with your branch? Were you surprised that it was always the same agencies?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I was told that there was a list and that there were a certain number of agencies approved to manage projects.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: How many agencies were there?

¿ (0950)

Ms. Isabelle Roy: There may have been five or six.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Can you name these agencies while the chairman...

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Desrochers.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I took advantage of the fact that you weren't paying attention. Time is precious, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

The Chair: When the cat's away, the mouse will play, eh? Take advantage of the chair.

Mr. Murphy, please, eight minutes.

Hon. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.): Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Roy, first of all I want to clarify an issue that Mr. Toews raised. There has been testimony in this committee from Mr. Gagliano that he would meet with Mr. Guité three or four times a year. I take it from your evidence that these meetings would occur much more frequently than that. Is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: I know Mr. Toews tried to ask you this, and I know it's difficult, but can you give you us an approximate answer--once a week, twice a week, once a month?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I would say at least once a month.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: At least once a month.

You were aware, being an assistant to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, that this department, which dealt with sponsorship, was certainly set up very differently. It didn't follow normal chains of command; you had the director dealing directly with the minister.

Was there ever any reason for why it was set up that way?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: That I don't know.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: Were you ever in any discussion on why this department was set up in this manner?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No. I was informed only that eventually part of my responsibilities would be to look after the sponsorship program in terms of doing the liaison.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: We also have a situation where the director, Mr. Guité, seemed to have had a fairly strong direct reporting relationship to the minister, or certainly to the minister's office. From previous testimony in this committee, that was not seen in other departments--he was only an EX-2 or EX-3 at the time.

Did that seem extremely unusual to you?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It wasn't really part of my.... I wasn't there to question that.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: But did you find it unusual?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: That's how it had been decided that it was to be managed.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: But when you were in the minister's political office you didn't see other EX-3s or EX-4s dealing directly with the minister's initiative, did you?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: So you agree that this was a rather unusual arrangement.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: But you don't know the reason why it was set up that way.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: My next area is the whole involvement of the deputy. He was in charge of the Department of Public Works and Government Services. Did you, in your capacity with the sponsorship program, have any involvement with the deputy minister, Mr. Ran Quail?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Relating to other files, but not to the sponsorship--

Hon. Shawn Murphy: I'll limit my questions mainly to the sponsorship....

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I can recall.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: Did he seem at any point in time to have any supervisory functions with respect to the sponsorship program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: He was informed, but in terms of the daily management, it was Monsieur Guité.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: And from your evidence it would appear that Mr. Guité communicated more with the minister and the minister's office than he did with Mr. Quail.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Monsieur Guité?

Hon. Shawn Murphy: Yes.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: He communicated more with the minister than with Deputy Minister Quail? Yes.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: Was there very much dialogue between Mr. Guité and Mr. Quail vis-à-vis the sponsorship program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I don't know.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: There have been allegations made, Madam Roy, on some of the commissions paid to the advertising agencies and the alleged lack of value for money. Did you ever in your capacity question the size of these bills and the commissions these ad agencies were receiving?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: You have to remember that I arrived in May 1999, so a lot of the files that have been raised were prior to the time I arrived at CCSB. I know from the files I was asked to manage, to my knowledge, the commissions were as they were supposed to be.

¿ (0955)

Hon. Shawn Murphy: And it appears from your evidence that shortly after you arrived, in 2000, I think, things were starting to be cleaned up.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: My next area is the whole Financial Administration Act. Again, you've seen it from the minister's office down. It would appear to me that the provisions of the Financial Administration Act, in many of these instances, certainly in the 1997, 1998, 1999 era, were not being followed. Do you have any reason to advance to this committee why the provisions of that legislation were not followed?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: And you would agree with me that the evidence that has come before the committee seems clear that there was a very great deal of rigour right through Public Works, other than this whole sponsorship program.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: For other programs, you mean?

Hon. Shawn Murphy: In the other departments of Public Works there seemed to be a very rigorous adherence to the Financial Administration Act and on the other checks and balances implemented by Treasury Board, which were not followed in the sponsorship program. Do you have anything to explain to this committee why that was the case?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: Were you at any meetings when the whole lack of administrative rigour was discussed with respect to the sponsorship program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was in the minister's office, no. When I was at CCSB, I know we were informed that the minister's office was to be briefed on the result of the audit.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: And when did you leave the sponsorship program? You already answered that, but I didn't make a note of it.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When did I leave? I left last February.

Hon. Shawn Murphy: You talk of getting calls from MPs offices. I know I've called different times, mainly because in the last year or two years of the program there seemed to be a lack of timeliness. People were making application, but there was no answer being given by the department, and months would go by without any answer. I think it was just a matter of resources.

What was the nature of these calls that were coming in from these MPs? Was it to lobby the program or to get an answer?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They were both. Some members of Parliament would call the minister's office directly, and then those in the minister's office would relay the information, saying they were calling regarding the status of a file, or that the event organizers hadn't been paid and they wanted to know the status of payment. Others would call to see whether their project was being funded or not.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Murphy.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis is next, please, for eight minutes.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, and Madam Roy.

The Chair: We will have a short health break recess after your eight minutes.

[Translation]

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Good morning, and thank you for your presentation and your testimony.

[English]

I would like to begin by asking you about the way decisions were made when you were a political staff member in Mr. Gagliano's office. So both you and Mr. Pierre Tremblay were there at the same time, I understand.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: What was the difference between your two positions?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: He was chief of staff, and I was a special assistant in the minister's office.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Did the two of you meet regularly on sponsorship files?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It was more on an ad hoc basis. Depending on the files I had, I would sit down and review the files.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: So who made decisions within the minister's office on the sponsorship file? Was it Mr. Tremblay, after discussing matters with you, or was the minister always involved?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No. Sometimes it was only the chief of staff, and sometimes it was the minister. Sometimes both the minister and the chief of staff had discussions, and based on their discussions I would make the requirements to CCSB.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: As part of the political staff on the Hill, did you have regular meetings with Mr. Pelletier?

À (1000)

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I've never met Mr. Pelletier.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Do you know if Mr. Tremblay had regular meetings, as chief of staff, on the sponsorship file?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Do you mean specifically on the sponsorship file? I know Mr. Tremblay or the minister may have met Mr. Pelletier, but whether it was specifically on the sponsorship file or other issues, I wasn't aware of their discussions.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Did Mr. Pelletier ever call you?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: But did you get the sense that there were regular communications between Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They would discuss regularly... I don't know.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: When you were on the political staff in Mr. Gagliano's office it was post-referendum, and we understand there was considerable focus in all ministers' offices on the whole issue of national unity. What was your sense of the urgency at the time? What was going on in the minister's office vis-à-vis the whole situation with Quebec? Was there anything unusual or different?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Was there no buzz of excitement, no sense, no pressure, no urgency to get decisions made in response?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: There was a special assistant for the Quebec region. He was probably more involved, but my overall responsibility was not in terms of the Quebec region. I had general files...nothing in particular that I can remember.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: When you got calls from other MPs, other individuals, ad agencies, or whoever about the sponsorship file, did you then meet regularly with Mr. Gagliano on these issues?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Usually each political assistant would meet with the minister on urgent cases, but if not we would usually meet with him once a week--not only myself but other assistants--to discuss the general files we had with him. So when there was a meeting, if I had any specific files regarding sponsorship I would discuss them with him.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Did all the political staff members in Mr. Gagliano's office meet regularly with Mr. Tremblay?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, definitely. We met with him whenever we needed to.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: And there was no sense of any urgency around the sponsorship file vis-à-vis Quebec and national unity?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It was a file they looked at closely, but we each had our role in terms of responsibilities in the minister's office.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Were there regular meetings or calls involving Roger Collet?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I'm aware of.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: I have one other question about who may have been calling the office. Did Jean Chrétien call the office regularly or ever call you on a sponsorship matter?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, never.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: You've read the Auditor General's report, I'm sure. You know her concerns with respect to the whole administration of the program. Did you find—

The Chair: You can't nod your head. You have to say yes or no to these questions. Sorry about that.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Regarding the Auditor General, yes, I've read the report.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Did you find her findings consistent with your observations of the program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: In general, yes.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: At the time, did you find it unusual—the way in which the program was run?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: For certain things, yes.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: There were certainly suggestions after the Auditor General released her report, and there still is some sense of this, that in fact the whole problem starts and ends with the group you worked in under Chuck Guité and then under Mr. Tremblay. How do you feel about taking the rap for this?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: All I can say is that when I arrived at Communication Canada, I didn't know that there was such a lack of documentation in the files and that administrative and contractual processes were not followed adequately. A lot of it I learned as I became more knowledgeable about how things were being managed and mainly as a result of the 2000 internal audit. I was involved in a lot of changes, so I know there was a lot of progress following the audit and up to the creation of Communication Canada. I was there and I had some functions. I had my work to do.

À (1005)

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Were you ever asked to do things you felt uncomfortable with?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Did you ever raise concerns about the way in which the program was administered?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Often.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Often. What was the response?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Whenever I had any issues I would raise them with Mr. Tremblay. Sometimes he would agree with the issues I would raise. Sometimes he would disagree.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: You've worked for quite a time with Mr. Tremblay. Did you get a sense that on his own and in collaboration with Chuck Guité he was responsible for the unusual way in which this program was administered, or did you get a sense that he was following orders and doing his job?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I think you should ask him that question.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

We're going to have a short health break at this time.

À (1006)

À (1016)

The Chair: We're now back in session and we're continuing.

Ms. Ablonczy, please; you have eight minutes.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, CPC): Thank you.

Madame Roy, we're so pleased to have somebody here with a memory and with an obvious commitment to telling us the truth. We appreciate it very much. I want you to know that.

You mentioned when you were speaking with my colleague, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, that you often raised concerns about the way the program was run. Would you please tell the committee the nature of the concerns you raised?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Sometimes it would be in terms of the types of information the agencies were providing us. Each agency had its own way of providing information. They were used to dealing with Mr. Guité, where most of the information was given verbally. In my discussions with them I would ask them more questions, and sometimes it would take a little more time for them to respond or provide us the information—maybe because I was new on the file.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Was there anything else? Were there any other concerns that you raised?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Depending on the sponsorship projects we received, there was.... I don't quite remember just offhand like that. Sometimes when a request came from the minister's office, I would raise to the chief of staff—I mean, to Pierre Tremblay—a question about the numerous requests we would get.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: You mean you were concerned about the....

Ms. Isabelle Roy: About the requests we would have, and how it was sometimes difficult to manage based on their requests and the projects we had to manage at the same time.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: What do you mean by “request”?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Requests from...

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: From the minister's office.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They often wanted to know the status of different files, so it was a question of providing them the information and at the same time trying to run the program internally as well.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: How much influence did the minister and his office have on the sponsorship decisions?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It was on a case-by-case basis, depending on the files that came to their attention. They didn't see all the files. Some files were sent directly to CCSB, and decisions were made. With some other files, they had a particular interest in them.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: And when they had a particular interest, what was the attitude from the minister's office?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They would highly recommend specific projects.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: And did you feel there was some obligation to comply with those recommendations?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I would relay the information to Monsieur Tremblay, and either he would agree with the suggestion from the minister's office, or if he disagreed, he might have a discussion with the minister's office.

À (1020)

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Was there a push back when he disagreed?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Sometimes.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: And then would he change his mind?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Sometimes.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Can you tell us, Madame Roy—because it seems as if, because of his medical condition, Mr. Tremblay will not be available to the committee, at least in the short term—what the relationship was, as you observed it, between Mr. Tremblay and Mr. Guité when Mr. Tremblay was in Minister Gagliano's office and Mr. Guité was director of the sponsorship program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It was an operational relationship.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: In a personal sense, were they good relations?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I know of. You would have to ask him the question.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Then when Mr. Tremblay became director of the program, were there differences of opinion or tension or conflict at all between Mr. Tremblay and the minister and his office?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I know of.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: With respect to the sponsorship decisions, did you get a sense there was an overriding strategy to make decisions in the interests of a national unity strategic plan?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Most of the proposals we received at the time were from the Quebec region. I was aware it had initially started after the referendum, but as to who made the decision with respect to it, I wasn't involved.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Was there discussion at the meetings such as, “We need to do this because it will enhance the federal presence in a particular area”? Were such things a regular part of the discussions about how to decide on a program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: The location of the event was definitely taken into account during the decision.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Was the person who made the request taken into account, whether it be a minister or someone else making a request?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Sometimes.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: You said Mr. Coderre often called. Was he a major player in requesting sponsorship funds?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: He called when he was minister of state. We would receive requests from his office when he was Minister of State for Sport.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Were those requests more frequent than those made by other ministers or members of Parliament?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They were more frequent, but the requests we received were often referred from Sports Canada because they didn't fit within the parameters of his program. He didn't have the budget to sponsor those types of events. In a lot of circumstances the request he might have received at Sports Canada to fund these projects didn't fit within the mandate of the program. They were referred to the sponsorship program because there might be opportunities for them to be sponsored.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: You said that after Mr. Tremblay took over as director, he made some changes. Can you be specific about the nature of those changes?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: From what I recall, in the fall of 1999 Mr. Tremblay sent a letter to all event organizers who had received a sponsorship in that current fiscal year to advise them that they had to submit a new sponsorship proposal; that there was no guarantee. A lot of event organizers were used to getting funding every year, and this was to let them know this was not going to continue in that way.

I know from what I can recall, whenever we had a sponsorship request we would open up a file, an acknowledgement letter would be made, and eventually we would even ask event organizers to make sure we had on file some description of the visibility that was offered to the government and the amount requested. Prior to Mr. Tremblay, a lot of this information was not even on file.

À (1025)

The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Ablonczy.

Mr. Thibault, s'il vous plaît, vous aurez huit minutes.

[Translation]

Hon. Robert Thibault: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning and welcome to the committee, Ms. Roy. You are extraordinarily well placed to help us. You held a position with the minister and you also held a position at the Communications Coordination Services Branch of the Department of Public Works. Any information you can give us would be useful in order for us to ensure that such things never happen again, and so that we may understand how the system allowed this to happen in the first place.

I have two or three questions for you. First of all, you said that ministers and members of parliament called your office when you were working with the minister and when you worked at the Communications Coordination Branch. Did you receive any calls from New Democrat, Bloc Québécois, Canadian Alliance or Conservative Party members?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: To the best of my recollection, the calls I received when I was at the minister's office or at the CCSB were from Liberal members or assistants.

Hon. Robert Thibault: This was at the time when you were at the Communications Coordination Services Branch.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Both at the minister's office and at the Communications Coordination Services Branch.

Hon. Robert Thibault: In the minister's office.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Both when I was in the minister's office and when I was a public servant.

[English]

The Chair: There will be no talking across the floor, please.

No discussion across the floor, Mr. Mills.

I know that was the answer Mr. Thibault was looking for, and now that he has it—

[Translation]

Hon. Robert Thibault: Is it possible that there were calls to your office that were not for you?

[English]

The Chair: Order, order.

Mr. Thibault, you have the floor.

[Translation]

Hon. Robert Thibault: Is it possible that members of any party called the office of the minister or the Communications Coordination Services Branch and that you were not aware of these calls?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, of course.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Are you aware of a call from Mr. Stockwell Day?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Robert Thibault: You are not.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was at the minister's office, I received calls from MPs, the minister received some and the chief of staff received some. When I was a public servant, it was usually Mr. Tremblay who took calls from MPs. So I'm not necessarily aware of all the calls that came in.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Thank you very much. Were there many calls from MPs in the course of a year?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Robert Thibault: You said earlier that sponsorship management was done in an unusual fashion. Could you elaborate on that?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I said that when I was asked questions about the fact that the executive director reported directly to the deputy minister. It was from that perspective that I said that.

À (1030)

Hon. Robert Thibault: Yesterday, we heard testimony from Mr. Boulay of Groupe Everest. Mr. Boulay indicated that the file vouchers were often or always—that was the usual practice—kept by the communication agencies. If I understood Mr. Boulay correctly, when Public Works was asked to make a payment, the vouchers were not necessarily part of the report; they had to stay in the communication agency files.

Was that your understanding of the program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Before the internal audit, the agencies provided invoices. I know that after the internal audit, a new selection process was put in place and from that point on, when agencies billed us, they often had to provide additional documentation. In order for payment to be made, together with the Media/IDA Vision invoice, there had to be the organizer's invoice as a supporting document.

Hon. Robert Thibault: With regard to the vouchers, it is possible that the Auditor General could have found a file that was more or less complete by examining analyses or results. Not all these things would necessarily have been included in Public Works files. Could these other documents have remained in the files of the communications agency?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: In our branch, we had the proposal when there was one. There was a proposal from the organizer. Then there was the correspondence that the branch had exchanged with the agencies or approval letters for the agencies. In the file there was a visibility plan, a final report from the agency, and in terms of invoices, the required vouchers.

Hon. Robert Thibault: We heard varying testimony here at the committee. Mr. Gagliano said that he met with Mr. Guité three or four times a year. Ms. Tremblay, who was Mr. Guité's assistant, said that these meetings took place once a month or even more often.

To your knowledge, what was the frequency of these meetings between Mr. Gagliano and Mr. Guité?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was in the minister's office or when I was in the public service?

Hon. Robert Thibault: When you were working in the minister's office or when you were with the Communications Coordination Services Branch.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: When I was in the minister's office, I didn't know the people from the agencies very well. I know that there were meetings, but I really couldn't tell you how frequently. When I was a public servant, we occasionally heard that the agencies might be meeting with people from the minister's office, but I'm not at all aware of the frequency of these meetings.

Hon. Robert Thibault: I'm talking about meetings between Mr. Guité and the minister himself, not meetings with people from the minister's office.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Are you asking me how often Mr. Guité met with the minister?

Hon. Robert Thibault: Yes.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As I mentioned earlier, he met with him regularly.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Once a month?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I said that he may have met with him once a month. It depended on the files being discussed.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Were there any periods when the meetings took place every three months?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Robert Thibault: No. They took place at least every two months, or at least once a month.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: At least once a month, if not more.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Thank you.

I would like to talk about evaluations now. You said that when you were at the CCSB, you received requests or recommendations from the minister or from the minister's office. You also said that these recommendations were sometimes made verbally and that there was no complete file at that point. Was it part of your normal duties to complete files?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: To my knowledge, even if the minister's office got in touch with us about a file, there was a file for each application. Recommendations from the minister's office, however, were made verbally.

Hon. Robert Thibault: That is a little confusing, but perhaps you will have an opportunity to clarify that. If I understood your testimony correctly, you said that requests from the minister's office were sometimes verbal.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I may have been mistaken, but I must say that the applications we generally received from the minister's office were written applications from the organizers of various events. The latter could call us to ask whether we had received a particular proposal. If we did not have it in the file, we told them we needed a proposal before we could consider the project.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Thibault.

Mr. Desrochers, you have eight minutes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

In answering the questions asked by my colleague from the New Democratic Party, Ms. Roy, you mentioned that you felt uncomfortable about some files. Could you give me the names of the files that made you feel that something was wrong?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I cannot name a particular file. This is something that happened on a case-by-case basis in the daily administration of the program.

À (1035)

Mr. Odina Desrochers: But you said that some files made you feel uncomfortable. There must have been something behind that. Do you remember anything related to the Salon du grand air or the People's Almanac?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, there were some files of great value...

Mr. Odina Desrochers: In the case of the People's Almanac file, did you receive some calls from Mr. Coderre?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: As you know, Mr. Coderre had some very close ties with the entire Liberal organization in Quebec. In addition to asking questions about amateur sport, did he also get involved in files from other regions?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It is possible, but I am not sure of that.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: So he never intervened with respect to a festival held in Drummondville in the summer of 2002?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, that is possible. Since I do not remember exactly which riding was held by Mr. Coderre, I cannot tell you...

Mr. Odina Desrochers: His riding was Drummond.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Honestly, it is possible. I was not checking to see whether his requests had to do with his riding or not. We dealt with the requests as they arrived.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You told us that Mr. Coderre could ask questions regarding his riding and that in those cases the riding was indicated, but if a minister or a member of parliament intervened—

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, it was not indicated; there was nothing that showed it was his riding.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: How did Mr. Coderre intervene?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: He submitted a proposal and asked whether it was possible to... We received proposals and since they sometimes came from Sport Canada, they could be from various regions. They did not necessarily come just from Quebec.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Of all these interventions for Sport Canada and otherwise, could you tell us what percentage of Mr. Coderre's recommendations or comments had to do with the Sponsorship Program?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: This was really on a case-by-case basis.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You cannot give us a percentage?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You were talking about visibility criteria. Could you tell me what visibility criteria were used in awarding sponsorships?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Over time, some guidelines were established. Various factors were drawn up. One was the nature of the event and whether it had been sponsored in the past. There was also the matter of whether or not the event had been successful in the past.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Could visibility criteria for ministers or members of parliament be established, particularly just before an election, such as the election in the year 2000?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You never came under any pressure to have more advertising about Canada placed in ridings that were more likely to be lost during an election?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, we proceeded on a case-by-case basis.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You always proceeded on a case-by-case basis. How many files a month did you process?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I could not tell you how many I dealt with each month. There were a couple of hundred files, but I cannot tell you how many there were exactly. I do not remember.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You also say in your statement that some festivals did not have to apply, because they were automatically given a significant amount each year. Is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: This did not happen annually, they applied, but—

Mr. Odina Desrochers: But the grant was repeated.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: They could apply shortly before the event and they were fairly sure that they would get—

Mr. Odina Desrochers: So there were no evaluation criteria. It was automatic.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: At the time, it was Mr. Guité who decided whether or not to give the project another sponsorship.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Can you give us the name of a festival whose grant was continually renewed during the time Mr. Gagliano was minister—from 1997 to 2000—since you say changes were made following the internal audit report?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: One event in particular?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: One or more events, given that you noticed that some cropped up often.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, there were some, but I don't remember exactly which ones off the top of my head.

À (1040)

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You have no names.

Let us come back to the matter of your supporting documents. Who had them? The advertising agency, Media/IDA Vision, Public Works, your office? We are looking for them. We have been told that supporting documents were required in order for a sponsorship to be paid.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Before the changes, there was not a great deal of supporting documentation requested or in the files.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: How did you go about paying at that time?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: The agency submitted an invoice.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: A real invoice?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Desrochers, let the witness answer the questions, please.

[Translation]

Ms. Isabelle Roy: The project was approved, the agency received a contract and sent us an invoice based on the contract.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Did you notice any overbilling by the agencies, or did the invoices always seem reasonable?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I was not involved in reviewing invoices. If I did see any, I did not notice any irregularities. I think that most of the invoices that contained some irregularities were submitted before I arrived in May 1999.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: What type of irregularities did you notice before the changes made as a result of the internal audit?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As I was saying, I saw no irregularities in the files I handled.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: But you were saying that before you arrived, there had been some irregularities.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I was not the person who...

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Who told you there had been some irregularities?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: We noticed them as a result of the internal audit. They were raised in the internal audit.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Were these irregularities the same ones you noticed when you arrived?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I did not necessarily see them when I arrived. I was informed about these irregularities, but I do not remember when that happened.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Was there any change in the procedures in place before the internal audit, after Mr. Tremblay took over from Mr. Guité? Did you feel that Mr. Tremblay wanted to make some changes?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As I explained earlier, he sent a letter to event organizers about providing supporting documents for files. Organizers were required to provide more information.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Was this letter sent out following the Auditor General's report?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No, before.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: So Mr. Tremblay arrived and noticed that some things were not going very well.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, because he sent that letter.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Saying that in future, things should work differently.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Organizers were supposed to submit a proposal, yes.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Desrochers.

[English]

Mr. Lastewka.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for appearing today. I want to summarize your remarks and have you confirm or deny what I bring forward.

When you were still working in the minister's office, did Pierre Tremblay have any concern with the criteria, selection, or the way the sponsorship program was being run at the time he was still chief of staff?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Not that I'm aware of.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: You said that when you worked in the minister's office, Mr. Pelletier occasionally would inquire, or his office would inquire. What do you mean by occasionally--every two weeks, every three weeks?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I don't know. Sometimes there might be questions from Monsieur Pelletier, but the frequency I don't remember.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: You made a remark about Jean Carle earlier. There was a question, but I missed it, and I apologize.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I wasn't aware of any calls or discussions with Jean Carle.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: You mentioned that Mr. Guité would meet with Mr. Gagliano approximately once a month, depending on the files that had to be discussed and so forth. Is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes. Once a month is approximate; I'm not totally sure.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: You also mentioned that Mr. Guité did most things verbally, as a result keeping very thin files.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Was there any concern about that when you were still in the minister's office, about thin files, about doing everything verbally?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As I mentioned, I wasn't aware of how things were managed under “Monsieur Guité”.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Mr. Quail was informed, but not involved. Did you find that unusual?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I was new to the department, so I didn't know all the processes or the appropriate ways of dealing with different sectors.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: I understand that when you received members' requests or ministers' requests, you either brought them up to date because you had information on the file or referred them to Mr. Guité. Or would you go and find that information?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: It depends. Sometimes they were just questions from members of Parliament on payments issued, so I would contact CCSB and ask them the status.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: When you then got transferred into the department, you quickly identified that there were poor administrative procedures. Could you tell us more about what you found? What made you think that there were poor administrative procedures?

À (1045)

Ms. Isabelle Roy: In some files there wasn't a lot of documentation.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Documentation about projects?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: About sponsorship proposals. Payments were made with little supporting documentation on file or questioning.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Did you make any suggestions? Now that you were working for Mr. Tremblay in the department, were there administrative changes you and Mr. Tremblay implemented?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I mentioned about making sure a file was opened for every project, an acknowledgement was made, so we would have the visibility on file for the requests and more information was entered into the database. These were the types of changes that slowly started to be made.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Is that when Mr. Tremblay sent the letter to the receiving events saying they had to provide more information?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: That was one of the first steps, and the others followed afterwards.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Was there any work done to go back to when Mr. Guité was handling the files to try to reconstruct what he had said verbally?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: No.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: You've had some great experience, as a minister and in the department.

An hon. member: Not as a minister.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: I've lost my train of thought.

I want to understand a little bit more about the implemented administrative changes. You've mentioned a few. You also mentioned that there wasn't work done to go back and reconstruct to correct the thin Guité files.

When Mr. Tremblay was executive director and you were one of his assistants, what work went on between Mr. Tremblay and Mr. Quail? Did Mr. Tremblay report to the minister and Mr. Quail stay silent, or was there any difference in the approach of having the executive director report in a proper administrative way?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: As to the executive director, I know he would meet Mr. Quail or the deputy minister on various issues, because CCSB didn't only look after sponsorship; there was other advertising publicity. So the executive director met the deputy minister on discussions regarding the overall management of CCSB. But in respect to the sponsorship, I know he would brief the deputy minister in some of his discussions regarding the sponsorship. I'm not sure how much detail or what type of information he may have provided, but the executive director would still have discussions with the minister's office directly.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: I have to go back a bit. There was one item that you had mentioned in some of your opening remarks, that you received final project reports. I take it that this happened at the time you were with Mr. Tremblay.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Do you mean final reports?

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Yes, final reports of the projects.

À (1050)

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes. That was when I was within the public service.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Did you receive any or look at any final reports while Mr. Guité was...

I understand you were there from May 1999 until August 1999, before Mr. Guité left. Is that correct?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Were there final reports forthcoming at that time?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Some, but it wasn't as.... The agencies were supposed to. They may not have been.... They were not as mandatory as when Mr. Tremblay was there.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: So the receiving of final reports while Mr. Guité was there was done in a very loose manner.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Then when Mr. Tremblay came in....

Ms. Isabelle Roy: I'm not sure exactly when, if it was as a result of the audit, but I know at some point, for each specific sponsorship, we had to have a visibility plan on file and a final report in order for both the communication agency and the event organizer to be paid.

Hon. Walt Lastewka: Thank you very much for summarizing the sequence of events.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Lastewka.

We have other orders of the day at 11 o'clock. We have now finished two rounds, rounds one and two. I'm reluctant to start and have one intervention of round three, so I'll just ask a couple of questions, and then I expect we would like to....

We are stopped because of a little consultation going on at the moment, that's all. The reason for the consultation was that we did not anticipate that our meeting with Ms. Roy would continue on this morning, and we have some conflicts of scheduling, as you know. We're always trying to ensure that the committee has something to do at all times, so now we have run into a little conflict between continuing or moving on to another issue that we wanted to deal with.

My preference would be that we adjourn with Ms. Roy until 3:30 this afternoon. We have a nurse here who is available to assist Ms. Roy, and we can provide every accommodation that we can for a few hours. Is that possible?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Yes, but in a way, I'd rather proceed.

The Chair: Yes, I appreciate that, but as I say, we have other commitments, as well. We are in a little dilemma. I would like to switch gears to another issue.

My preference would be to come back later on, so I would really like that to happen, if that's possible. Is it possible for you to go home and come back?

Ms. Isabelle Roy: If that's the request of the committee, I'll be back at 3:30.

The Chair: I don't want to get into a debate on this, Mr. Toews.

Mr. Vic Toews: No, just remember that this is a witness who is paying for her own legal counsel.

The Chair: Yes, I've already discussed with the clerk whether this committee would recommend, or may want to consider recommending to the House in a report, that because she is a member of the public service, the government look at this issue seriously. That would resolve the issue regarding legal counsel.

I haven't had an opportunity to bring that forward to the committee, but I've had discussions with the clerk that we would do that. As a public servant here on public business, she should be called because she's a public servant. I think it's appropriate that we would make that recommendation to the House.

Do you want to make a motion to that effect, Mr. Toews?

Mr. Vic Toews: I certainly would. If it would assist the witness in any way, I would like to make that motion.

The Chair: We'll take that as a notice of motion. I'll have the clerk draft up a report, and we'll deal with that at a later point.

I still have to bring the report back. I was just going to take that and make the report. We'll bring that back at the earliest opportunity to approve it.

Mr. Thibault.

Hon. Robert Thibault: Mr. Chair, I don't know exactly what you have planned on the agenda. I'm sure you've discussed it with members. But I was wondering if it is absolutely necessary that we ask this witness to remain here for the whole day. If we still have one hour to work with her, is there any way we could do it before?

À (1055)

The Chair: Well, as I said, I think there is a desire among the members and they have a number of questions. Am I correct in saying that? I think I am.

Therefore, this could quite easily go on for a couple of more hours, which is why I would prefer the 3:30-to-5:30 block. Since we have had indications that this is not going to last for two hours this morning, I now have a conflict on my hands. That is the issue.

So I'm just going to make a decision. We can either make you comfortable here for a few hours, or you could go home, but we would like you to come back at 3:30.

Ms. Isabelle Roy: Very well.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

We'll just leave it at that. You may leave the room, and I will suspend the meeting after you have left the room.

We'll reconvene in about five or ten minutes in camera. The room has to be cleared first.

The meeting is suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]