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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, March 11, 2004

1530

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.))

Hon. John McCallum (Minister of Veterans Affairs)

1535

1540

1545

1550

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC)

1555

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Rick Casson

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg (Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs)

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Rick Casson

Hon. John McCallum

1600

Mr. Rick Casson

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Rick Casson

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ)

1605

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Claude Bachand

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ)

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Claude Bachand

Hon. John McCallum

1610

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, Lib.)

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg

Hon. John McCallum

1615

Mr. Murray Calder

Mr. Jack Stagg

Mr. Murray Calder

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, CPC)

Hon. John McCallum

1620

Mr. Jack Stagg

Mr. Jay Hill

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jay Hill

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg

1625

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Keith Hillier (Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Veterans Affairs)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Hon. John McCallum

1630

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Hon. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.)

Hon. John McCallum

Hon. David Price

1635

Hon. John McCallum

Mr. Jack Stagg

Hon. John McCallum

Hon. David Price

Hon. John McCallum

1640

Hon. David Price

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.)

1645

Mr. John O'Reilly

1650

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Jay Hill

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Jay Hill

1655

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Jay Hill

Mr. John O'Reilly

1700

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Jay Hill

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Claude Bachand

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Claude Bachand

1705

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Murray Calder

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Murray Calder

Mr. John O'Reilly

1710

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Jay Hill

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Jay Hill

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. Jay Hill

1715

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric)

CANADA

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

NUMBER 004

3rd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, March 11, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1530)

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2005, were deemed referred to several standing committees of the House as follows: the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, Veterans Affairs votes 1, 5, 10, and 15.

Today we are beginning our consideration of the main estimates of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our special guest is the Honourable Minister of Veterans Affairs. The minister is supposed to appear before the committee on March 23, but it's been changed to April 1, so make that note.

Minister, the floor is yours.

Hon. John McCallum (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Mr. Chair, thank you very much. It's a pleasure for me to appear before this committee.

[Translation]

I am delighted to join you today to discuss spending plans and priorities for the Veterans portfolio over the next year.

All of us share a common commitment to do the right thing for those who put their lives on the line for their country and its values. I think we are in—by we l mean myself, the minister, and you, members of the committee—for some very productive times over the weeks and months to come. The tabling of the Democratic Action Reform Plan in the House last month, with its anticipated expanded role and resources for standing committees, bodes very well not just for the democratic process, but for the end result too, namely a re-invigorated debate concerning the best ways and means of delivering exemplary programs to these deserving men and women and their families.

¹ (1535)

[English]

To start, I'd like to introduce you to the officials who are with me today: Mr. Jack Stagg, the deputy minister; Mr. Keith Hillier, assistant deputy minister of corporate services; Mr. Brian Ferguson, assistant deputy minister of veterans services; Mr. Robert Mercer, executive director of the public affairs branch; and Mr. Victor Marchand, chair of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

Just as it was an honour and a privilege for me to serve the Canadian Forces as defence minister for a year and a half, it's equally a privilege now for me to serve those who used to be members of the Canadian Forces, that is to say Canada's veterans.

For me, I think the most important linkage between the two positions is what one might call the human dimension, the importance of the well-being of our past and present soldiers, sailors, and airmen and women. Just to give you an example or two, at Defence, with a great deal of help from this committee, I changed the rules regarding dismemberment so that if a soldier lost his legs he received the same compensation whether he was a general or a corporal. We also moved, for example, to eliminate the backlog of grievances over a period of one year. By the same token, on this human front, along with the defence minister just a few weeks ago, I moved to provide compensation to those who had been subject to chemical testing in the forties, the fifties, and the sixties.

So I do think the linkage for me between the two departments and the two jobs has mainly to do with this human dimension. For me now, the very top priority is to see to it that we do everything we possibly can for the well-being of Canada's veterans.

Today I would like to lay before you a number of the policy and program matters that will be on your front burner for the next few years. My officials and I can pick up any questions you might have about the specific dollar figures in the estimates or indeed on any other issues you would like to raise.

Let me first turn to the estimates. As you can see, for the fiscal year 2004-2005, we are seeking approval for total funding of about $2.8 billion. Of that, about $1.6 billion is allocated for disability pensions and another $800 million for health care, including $252 million for the veterans independence programs, another $225 million for long-term care, and the remainder for treatment benefits. That leaves about $224 million for operating expenditures, or about 8% of the total budget.

We are seeking approval for an additional $289 million over the previous year. About $99 million of the increase relates to health purchases resulting from the increasingly complex and frequent health needs of an aging war generation clientele.

[Translation]

Another $88 million of the increase will go to disability pensions, to cover off Consumer Price Index adjustments, and an increase in the number of VAC disability pension clients.

An increase of $58 million goes for the Veterans Independence Program, due primarily to the approval of the lifetime provision of housekeeping or grounds maintenance services to surviving spouses of veterans and other qualified primary care givers. I will have more to say on that later.

A further $33 million of the increase relates to two of our major capital initiatives: the Ste. Anne's Hospital Modernization Project and the European Monuments Restoration Project.

[English]

Finally, other increases from the main estimates include additional salary costs due to signed collective bargaining agreements; administrative costs related to initiatives to address the urgent needs of Canada's aging veterans, including the extension of the veterans independence program to spouses of deceased veterans and other qualified primary caregivers; and costs related to the enhanced Veterans Affairs Canada remembrance program. That covers the reasoning behind the bulk of our increased spending for this year.

Since coming on board as minister, I have crossed the country talking to, and more important, listening to both Veterans Affairs staff and veterans groups. As a result of these consultations I have come to a number of conclusions about the near-term priorities for this department. Already I am increasingly concerned that Veterans Affairs is not as well able to respond to the needs of Canadian Forces veterans and their families returning to civilian life, as was the case 60 years ago. The first of these priorities then is to modernize the services we provide for Canadian Forces clients and their families.

Canadian Forces veterans have been the subject of numerous studies and reviews over the past 10 years. In 1996 Veterans Affairs launched a comprehensive review of the current and future needs of veterans. The review of veterans' care needs concluded that the department's programs, which were designed for an aging war veteran population, are inadequate for a younger population, particularly those with a disability.

¹ (1540)

[Translation]

Together with DND we are pursuing numerous joint initiatives to support our CF clients and their families within the existing legislative framework. And, together we have made a great deal of progress in recent years.

However, we know that we need to do more to successfully transition CF veterans from military to civilian life. This could mean significant changes to how we deal with modern Canadian Forces veterans. We need to find ways to provide incentives to be independent, to offer more support for those who have problems adjusting to life outside the military.

To that end, we have established a Modernization Task Force that is examining the current ways we are doing things, looking to see which programs we should keep and which we should change.

[English]

This modernization task force is examining the current ways we are doing things to see which programs we should keep and which we should change. In light of compelling evidence that action must be taken, we are reviewing our oldest and largest program, the disability pension program. For all the merits of the disability pension system we have in place--and let me assure you, disability pensions will continue--change is required to move away from a dependency model.

We need to be moving toward a system that encourages wellness and re-establishment. Most of our allies have already moved in that direction, so the task force is looking at options that will ensure that CF members moving to civilian life for whatever reason will have the supports they need so that they are citizens fully engaged in, rather than dependent upon, our economy.

We're not waiting for options to be fully developed to address current issues facing our clients. I'll give you one example. On February 27 we open an operational stress injury clinic at Parkwood Hospital in London, Ontario. This clinic provides specialized services to help veterans and members of the Canadian Forces, giving them access to a multidisciplinary team of health professionals specializing in the treatment of operational stress injuries, including post-traumatic stress disorders.

This new clinic joins a national network of treatment and diagnostic clinics across the country. They are just one example of integrated services that both my department and the defence department are putting into place now while moving to more comprehensively addressing these concerns through the modernization task force.

I turn now to our traditional war-era veterans.

[Translation]

As we look to modernize the way we deliver service for our younger clientele, we are in no way diminishing the commitment of time or resources in meeting the needs of our war-era veterans. In fact, by far the largest percentage of our $2.8 billion budget this year goes to meeting their disability, independence, health care and long-term care needs.

The urgent needs legislation and regulations passed this fall—and many thanks to members of this committee who were a great help in getting it passed quickly—is a testament to our continuing commitment to these elderly veterans and their survivors.

¹ (1545)

[English]

I've brought along a fact sheet that will provide you with further details on the implementation of the legislative and regulatory changes. I have lots of handouts today. I also have copies of the March issue of Salute!, our client newspaper, which is full of information on the implementation of the urgent needs proposals.

Suffice it to say, more war-era veterans are getting more access to more money and more services than ever before. Remember, the legislation also calls for the re-establishment of the education assistance program for the children of deceased Canadian Forces members. I can tell you we've already provided application packages to 125 service families.

This committee was also a driving force in getting us to the place where, in December, we made changes to the regulations that extended survivor coverage for VIP housekeeping and/or grounds maintenance services back to the time of original entitlement for such benefits. We rolled out an advertising campaign that has resulted in a significant level of inquiry from potential beneficiaries.

Turning now to long-term care, I understand this has always been an important issue for this committee. I commend this committee for all the hard work that has been done in the past on long-term care. I know you are particularly interested in the area of access to priority beds for veterans in community hospitals, availability of alternative housing and enhanced home care, standardization of services throughout Canada, and monitoring and accreditation of long-term care facilities.

My department continues to ensure that when veterans can no longer manage to live on their own they receive the best care in a long-term care community or contract facility. With more than 9,000 veterans accessing care either in a priority access bed or community long-term care bed across Canada, we continue to make sure that this takes place.

A successful partnership has been with the Royal Canadian Legion, which has volunteers act as surveyors who visit veterans in community care facilities and conduct VAC's client satisfaction questionnaires. This partnership is ensuring that a greater number of veterans are visited on a regular basis and helps us to ensure they receive the quality of care they deserve.

We are also faced with the reality that our first-hand witnesses to the war years of the last century will soon be gone, which begs the question, who will be the new witnesses to our history and heritage? Of course, it will fall to a new generation of Canadians.

This leads me to a second major priority: taking a much more proactive approach to engaging youth in remembrance. Remembering and honouring those who have proudly served our country in war, in conflict, and in peace is crucial for all Canadians in preserving the legacy of our veterans.

[Translation]

The objective of the Canada Remembers program is to create and support opportunities for all Canadians, especially youth, to learn about, develop an understanding of, and take pride in Canada's contribution to world peace and freedom.

[English]

At the same time, the veteran community is eager to have its stories told, to ensure that its legacy lives on in future generations. With such strong support in the Canadian public, a strong desire from the veteran community, and the eagerness and openness of youth, the time seems opportune to pass the torch of remembrance and to strengthen the connections across generations and across the country.

I might just note in passing that before I became the Minister of Veterans Affairs, or had any idea that it might be about to happen, I happened to be at a school in my riding during remembrance week last year, where I witnessed a really good ceremony with a gym full of students. It was a great combination of the young and the old; the younger ones had developed high-tech remembrance videos and the older ones told their stories. The interaction was great. For me, it was a personal experience underlying the importance of this passing of the torch to the youth, and also of taking advantage of the interaction between the young and the old.

The foundation of this new approach, I believe, is to actively engage Canadians in new remembrance and commemoration strategies. Canada's youth are Canada's pride in the future, and their development is a fundamental part of maintaining a solid foundation of citizenship in Canada. Youth learning, youth engagement, and community support are the cornerstones of this strategy.

We're partnering with well-established national organizations, like the Dominion Institute and Encounters with Canada, to implement elements of this strategy. These types of partnerships allow us to expand our ability to reach youth. The Dominion Institute provides training to veterans to assist them in sharing their stories with Canadian youth in schools, and it was very much involved in the encounter that I had, which I described a minute ago. Encounters with Canada brings together young Canadians from across Canada to participate in the Canada Remembers theme week. We're also partnering with them by developing a peace module to be included as a general part of their program.

We also provide opportunities for youth to participate in overseas learning events and delegations and to become employed as youth guides at our memorial sites in France, so that they can have first-hand experience in the fields of battle. Our efforts focus on enabling and encouraging youth to return to their schools and communities as ambassadors of remembrance. We will be involving youth in our upcoming events and activities planned for D-Day, which I will speak to in a few moments.

The overall strategy brings military history and heritage alive in a fresh way for youth, focusing on creative learning activities and active remembrance. An enhanced knowledge of our history and heritage directly contribute to citizenship, nation building, and a strong family and community fabric, through values, culture, pride, and a sense of place.

¹ (1550)

[Translation]

VAC has created a 60th Anniversary Task Force to focus planning on 60th anniversary events. Events during the first half of 2004 will mark the 60th anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy.

[English]

In June, we'll join the international community in commemorating the D-Day landings.

I should mention that you have all been sent an invitation to the upcoming event on Parliament Hill on March 30, to officially launch the 60th anniversary of D-Day with the unveiling of a special 60th anniversary D-Day poster.

My colleague, John O'Reilly, will be describing to you in the next hour in more detail the overseas activities for D-Day.

It will be my privilege to lead an official delegation, including 60 veterans of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy, to France as part of the return to Normandy overseas events. I won't say anything more about that because Mr. O'Reilly will be taking you through it.

So let me conclude. As I said at the beginning of my remarks, all of us at this table share a common goal, to make sure that the men and women who have defended Canada and so ably promoted our values abroad get the very best from us.

[Translation]

For our part at Veterans Affairs, ensuring that all our clients are treated with dignity, respect and dispatch remains our mission and our mandate.

[English]

We have challenges before us, but the possibilities are very great.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you, Minister.

Colleagues, the minister is staying with us until 4:30, and after that Mr. O'Reilly will take over and explain about the celebrations.

We go now to seven minutes for the Liberal side and then five-minute rounds. But before we go there, thank you, Minister, for the introduction and for introducing your deputy and assistant deputy ministers, as well as the director.

I want to mention that the deputy minister, Mr. Jack Stagg, is coming from the best place in North America, which is called Cambridge.

Mr. Casson, seven minutes.

Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I can't understand the minister giving equal billing to Mr. O'Reilly. We'll see later if it will be worthwhile.

Mr. Minister, first of all, I want to thank you this morning--and your staff, actually--for the briefing we had with the department. It was excellent. Most of the people who are here with you were there. We came away far better prepared to serve our constituents than when we went, so I appreciate that.

There are a couple of issues that have been percolating for the last little while, Mr. Minister, and the Métis veterans is one of them. The fact is, it seems to me these veterans have fallen through the cracks, or there's been a policy in place that has kept them from receiving the full benefits other veterans have received--the veterans loan assistance act and some of these.... I'd just like to ask you, what's going on? What has happened to address these inequities, and what can we expect in the future?

¹ (1555)

Hon. John McCallum: Thank you, Mr. Casson.

I regret that I wasn't at your meeting myself. I was required to be in cabinet, but I'm glad you received good information.

As for the Métis issue, I was in Manitoba last week and had a very good meeting with Mr. David Chartrand. The two of us agreed on a process. He subsequently issued a press release indicating his satisfaction with what we had agreed to.

Any Métis who didn't receive the benefits to which they were entitled will clearly have them paid by the department. We have examined a number of the cases given to us. I'm told we did not find cases where Métis did not receive the benefits to which they were entitled. There may be such cases out there. We're certainly prepared to look at any such cases, and if any benefit due was not paid at the time, we're prepared to pay it right now.

But more generally, Mr. Chartrand had a Métis veteran with him at the meeting who described those days some decades ago and what might be called a systemic discriminatory situation. For example, Métis were not supposed to stand in the line for benefits where the first nations people were, and neither were they welcome in the line for the veterans who were not first nations.

I think there may be some deeper issues. So what we have decided to do is have a representative of mine and a representative of Mr. Chartrand's meet to agree on a process--because we both agree on the end, which is to do complete restitution for any bad or unfair treatment in the past. What we have to do is agree on a process to reach that end. Our two representatives are in the process of discussing that right now and will report back to the two of us.

Mr. Rick Casson: Do you have any idea now, Mr. Minister, how many Métis veterans are coming forward? Are there large numbers?

Hon. John McCallum: We're certainly willing to look at any number that do come forward.

How many files have we gone through, approximately?

Mr. Jack Stagg (Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs): It's 120.

Hon. John McCallum: I don't know how many more might be forthcoming, but any number that comes forward we will examine.

Mr. Rick Casson: Thank you.

Something else that's been of quite a lot of concern to veterans is the recent sending out of health cards to the wrong addresses. There was some indication that there were some quality control mechanisms being put in place. But it seems to me it's a little late to be doing that after they've been sent out.

How could 12,000 cards have possibly gone to the wrong people? And if there's any pertinent information on these--and I understand there is, because it describes the types of benefits the particular person is getting--and they get into the wrong hands, then I think that's a far more serious issue than we've been led to believe. What's happening on that?

Hon. John McCallum: Well, this was certainly a very regrettable incident. It would be regrettable under any circumstances but particularly in the case of veterans, who are sometimes elderly. This error was most unfortunate.

The error was made by Blue Cross, which sent the cards to the incorrect addresses. My department was in contact with the privacy commission to ensure that any problems in the area of privacy were dealt with appropriately. The Privacy Commissioner's office stated that it was well satisfied with the actions we had taken.

We also telephoned the vast majority of these individuals very quickly to describe the situation, and a letter has gone out to each of them. So I'm very conscious of the seriousness of this and the inconvenience and potential risk to privacy that might be caused. I think we have done everything humanly possible under the circumstances.

º (1600)

Mr. Rick Casson: So when, Mr. Minister, will they get the proper cards? And as for the letters sent out to them to remind them to send the wrong cards back, hopefully the addresses were changed before that happened.

Hon. John McCallum: Well, the vast majority of them have already received a telephone call. Perhaps Mr. Stagg knows exactly when they will receive the cards. I'd ask him to answer that.

Mr. Jack Stagg: It should not take long to receive their new cards. But I think the most important point is that they can use their old cards until their new cards have arrived.

The reason for changing the cards, Mr. Chair, was that there were phone numbers--call-free numbers--on the front of the cards that we wanted to discontinue. We wanted to change them. So that's the reason for the cards. There was no other data information changed on the cards themselves.

Our clients who have the old cards can continue to use those. They will not be without benefits at all while they're waiting for the new card. It's a matter of getting information on the new call line to them with the new cards.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Your time is nearly up, Mr. Casson.

Mr. Rick Casson: I have just one more quick question about an ombudsman for veterans. Is there anything in the works for that? The military ombudsman dealt with the issue of the veterans who were exposed to chemicals. Is the department considering something like an ombudsman for the veterans?

Hon. John McCallum: Well, as you just said, the defence department ombudsman dealt with that, which was essentially a case dealing with veterans. So I would think he does double duty in cases of infringements to the rights of either serving members of the Canadian Forces or veterans.

Is there anything further to say on that, Mr. Stagg?

Mr. Jack Stagg: I had not heard of any proposals for an ombudsperson for Veterans Affairs. One of the greatest areas of potential difficulty we have is in long-term care. People are older, they're in institutions, and sometimes they have difficulty in articulating what they want and need to the institutions they're in.

Three years ago we appointed a director of quality care in Ontario, and we've been looking at that model in fact to do something similar in other areas of the country. We think that's worked out quite well. It's not really an ombudsperson but somebody who will take up the cause of people who are not satisfied with the services they're getting in the institutions that we contract with within the provinces primarily.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you.

Let's move on.

Monsieur Bachand.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll address the witness in the language of Molière. As I attended this morning's briefing, I too would like to thank your political staff and senior officials for being so courteous and professional. They gave us an excellent briefing.

I also want to assure you, Minister, that I will not be asking you today if a new veterans policy will be announced in the near future. I know that's not about to happen. As you know, I pressed you considerably on that issue when you were Minister of National Defence, but now, we're moving on to other matters.

º (1605)

[English]

Hon. John McCallum: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I have two questions for you. At this morning's briefing, there was some discussion of the Board. When a person is dissatisfied with a decision rendered in their case, they can appeal the decision to the Board. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Marchand earlier.

We were told this morning that while it happened infrequently, on two or three occasions, the Board had revised downward pension claims that had been made. This happens only rarely and I'm told that in 99 per cent of cases, when the Board is asked to review claims, it either uphold decisions or increase the amounts of the, but only rarely does it revise them downward.

I'm not saying that there are savings to be had here. However, I think this must be very demoralizing for your clients. Moreover, as an MP and defence critic, I know we receive many telephone calls about cases like this.

Do you think the problem could be resolved by bringing in legislative changes prohibiting the Board from reducing the minimum amount of the claim to be paid out or any surplus amounts? Is such action warranted?

I also want to take advantage of your presence here today to broach the subject of younger VAC clients. We heard the figures this morning indicating that the number of World War II and World War I veterans is dwindling. However, we're now dealing with a new breed of clients and their numbers are increasing dramatically: they numbered 37,000 in 2003 and are projected to increase to 44,000 in 2006 and to 59,000 by 2013. Do you have plans to put in place provisions for dealing with these clients, along the lines of those taken by DND, since you do follow this department's lead?

If, as a preventive measure, we could convince DND to bring in special programs to limit these numbers which are set to rise dramatically in the next few years, that would help as well. Instead of treating people or the problem after the fact, perhaps we should be taking, along with DND, preventive action so that problems do not arise in the first place.

Hon. John McCallum: Thank you for your kind words about the members of my staff. If you find them congenial, no doubt it's because I am as well.

[English]

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Oh, John, don't go too far now.

[Translation]

Hon. John McCallum: You're rather congenial yourself, as a rule. Thank you.

To answer your first question, as you know, I do not intervene in any way in the Board's deliberations. Mr. Marchand is in attendance. If you wish to ask him questions, he'll be happy to answer them.

However, your question merits some consideration, as I hadn't thought about prohibiting the Board from revising claims downward. I can discuss that idea with Mr. Marchand. However, it's the first time I've heard such a suggestion. As you said, the Board rarely takes this step.

Regarding your second question, these numbers are in fact rising quickly. In my opening remarks, I identified as my number one priority improving the program to help veterans lead a normal life.

As for the increase in the number of veterans, this isn't something that we can really control. It depends on the number of CF operations. As you know, our forces have been involved in many missions recently, in Africa, in Afghanistan and now in Haiti, to name a few. The higher the number of missions, the higher the number of potential veterans.

We're working closely with DND to reduce the number of people experiencing problems and to help them, but as I observed, much remains to be done.

Mr. Claude Bachand: Would you say that the biggest problem experienced by these young clients today is post-traumatic stress disorder, an injury that leaves scars that are more emotional than physical? Considering that 60 per cent of VAC's new clients suffer from some variation of this disorder, could you not work with DND and suggest certain measures, such as conciliation, meeting with CF members and preparing them for the horrors they will witness while deployed so that you're not left to foot the bill for treatment down the road?

Hon. John McCallum: Perhaps the member can share with us some of the statistics on this disorder, if he has any. I don't, but I'm well aware that many of VAC's clients have psychological problems. When I was with DND, I recall that we worked hard to alleviate these problems. For example, before returning to Canada from their mission in Afghanistan, soldiers were sent to Guam for some de-briefings in an effort to ease tensions and alleviate some problems. We also neglected to mention the centres that are doing research in this area.

As I see it, proactive steps are being taken to ease the problem. These matters are more DND's responsibility, but we are working with the department on the overall problem. DND is responsible for prevention, while VAC is responsible for CF members once they leave active duty.

º (1610)

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): We'll come back to you.

Let's go now to Mr. Calder for seven minutes.

Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you very much for being here. I'm a new member here, but Veterans Affairs has been a passion of mine for a long time.

I'd like to talk about the VIP program. In 1995 that program was grandfathered, and I know the reasons for that, but there are a couple of things within the program that I think Veterans Affairs should really revisit. One is the trigger of the VIP program. If a single rural veteran makes over $1,058.15 a month, he doesn't trigger the program. If an urban veteran makes over $1,313 a month, he doesn't trigger the program. I realize these triggers are tied to Stats Canada's low-income cut-off figure, but really, in all fairness to these people, that is not a lot of money. Remember, the VIP program allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time.

I'd like some comments on that and also on the possibility, within the VIP program, of taking a look at allied vets. After the Second World War there were a lot of allied vets who came over here and settled but who quite frankly don't fit into the program.

Hon. John McCallum: On the question of low-income cut-off, it's relatively complex. You and I have discussed this before, and I think Mr. Stagg discussed it just this morning.

So why don't you address the question of the low-income cut-off? Then I'll say something more generally after.

Mr. Jack Stagg: There are a variety of ways, as you know, to be qualified to receive so-called veterans independence program services. The only low-income entry into that program, or in other words income test, is through the war veterans allowance. For the war veterans allowance you will have to have served overseas as a veteran in the First World War, the Second World War, or the Korean War. If you're in receipt of the war veterans allowance, which is a low-income program, then you automatically qualify for the veterans independence program if the provinces don't offer those kinds of services.

For everyone else, modern CF veterans or in fact Second World War veterans not in that program, basically they can apply and be approved for a variety of health care or pension-related issues. So there really isn't a low-income cut-off. It would only be if a veteran wanted to get into the program through the war veterans allowance.

Hon. John McCallum: I'm not sure if that addresses your question, but I've asked the department to look into groups other than those who currently receive it who maybe should receive it. There is the case of the pre-1990 widows, which has been much discussed, but there are also living veterans who do not receive it who could well use it. More generally, if you look at Canadian society, there's a challenge with our aging population where there is a win-win situation if more elderly people stay at home for longer. It's a win for the people because generally they prefer to be at home, and it's a win for the government because it costs less if they stay at home than if they're in long-term care.

Some have said that this VIP program we have could be a model more generally for Canada, and I know our caucus colleague Madame Thibeault, who had her study, has considered that. I'm hoping it might be considered more generally. I am looking into using it with other groups within the veterans community that may be affected by this low-income cut-off. That's what I thought when we discussed it, but maybe other groups.... I think more generally, at the national level, this kind of initiative should be considered by, for example, the Liberal Party task force under Tony Ianno, which I believe is also going to be looking at that.

º (1615)

Mr. Murray Calder: The point I'm making here is the fact that I have a number of examples in my riding. One individual has corresponded with me since 1995; in fact, he's the president of the Orangeville Legion, Branch 233, and he is in a situation where he would like to remain at home. His name is Bill Edge, and he is having a lot of problems staying there because he can't get snow removed in the wintertime through the VIP program, he has a hard time getting lawns cut in the summertime, and things like that. He is a veteran; he was overseas, came over here, and became a Canadian citizen. I just really feel that in this situation we should be doing more for them.

Mr. Jack Stagg: I don't know the individual case, but if that person were to qualify for a pensionable condition--there are quite a number of pensionable conditions, as you know--the VIP service may follow, depending on pensionable conditions. One of the disadvantages of our system, I suppose, is that once you qualify for a disability pension, then a lot of other things kind of follow up thereafter.

If you can get that person to get in touch with us here in Ottawa, in Charlottetown, or even in Kirkland Lake, which is our Ontario regional office, we can provide the person with advice as to how the person may be able to qualify for veterans independent services.

Mr. Murray Calder: I'll be more than happy to go and do that.

Thank you very much.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you, Mr. Calder.

Now we'll go to the second round, with five minutes each. First is Mr. Hill, then Mr. Perron.

Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just following up, first of all, on Mr. Calder's statement, I think that all of us from all parties would certainly like to see, if possible, the government doing more to help our veterans. We owe them a huge debt, and it's something that crosses partisan political boundaries; we are all in agreement on that.

I want to follow up, first of all, Mr. Minister, through the chair, on the response you made to my colleague Mr. Casson a minute ago. In light of the business about the military ombudsman being available--if necessary, obviously--to intercede on behalf of veterans, I was just wondering whether that information has been communicated in any way to the veterans themselves. He also remarked on some of the past grievances of Métis veterans. Has it been communicated to our veterans, including Métis, that if necessary they can communicate with Mr. Marin and that he will intercede on their behalf?

Hon. John McCallum: Like Mr. Stagg, I had not heard about this idea of an independent ombudsman for veterans affairs until this afternoon. In that answer, I was referring to this study about the chemical testing, which did deal with veterans.

What I meant was, at least on this occasion, he has undertaken work that was relevant to and addressed the concerns of veterans. I doubt that it's in his mandate to respond to individual veterans as a matter of course, in the way he does to members of the Canadian Forces, but I could take that up with the Minister of Defence.

I hadn't thought of that before. It might be an appropriate expansion, but it's not under my control. I will undertake to take it up with David Pratt.

The other point I might make, very quickly, is that veterans have very effective ombudsmen, in practice, and that is veterans associations. If any veterans have a problem, they come to us perhaps, or they may go to the veterans associations. I think we have regular communications with those veterans associations. They're not shy to communicate problems the veterans have.

Is that a fair statement?

º (1620)

Mr. Jack Stagg: That's a fair statement, Minister.

Mr. Jay Hill: Thank you for clearing that up. I gather you'll consider it, but despite your earlier statement today, obviously there has been no communication with veterans, where, if necessary, they can avail themselves of the services, other than the one-time situation you referred to on the mustard gas veterans.

I want to briefly--obviously, I don't have much time--turn to the main estimates, since that's at least part of the reason why we're here.

One of the concerns I always have actually goes to every government department. I think it's only accentuated when we're dealing with veterans, because, as I said earlier, we all have a soft spot in our hearts for our veterans. The concern is, and I hear it expressed, Mr. Chairman, by a lot of people, that a lot of money seems to get taken up in administration, in shuffling paper, and not enough actually reaches the people who need the funds.

I'm concerned again, and I'd like it if you could possibly explain or your deputy minister could explain, how it is that when I look at the estimates I see a $106 million increase in operating expenditures and an almost $146 million increase in grants and contributions. What's involved in that? Why would there be such a dramatic increase in operating expenditures when correspondingly, as a percentage, there isn't that big an increase, in my understanding, for the money that's actually going to assist individuals in the form of grants or contributions? That's my first question.

The second one would be, for the $50 million program that the minister announced for the mustard gas veterans--if they in fact take up that money--is that included in the $146 million under grants and contributions? The $146 million increase is what I'm referring to, which ends up equaling almost $2 billion.

Hon. John McCallum: I'll ask Mr. Hillier, our assistant deputy minister in this area, to answer the detailed questions.

I have two general points. First of all, I agree with your sentiment that we do not want to have operating costs getting ahead of themselves. I did reallocation voluntarily when I was in Defence, so I certainly agree with your philosophy in terms of owing it to the taxpayer to make sure every dollar is spent efficiently.

In this particular case, I think you will find, and Mr. Hillier will tell you the details, that those increases have to do with enriching the VIP program. On the pure operating side, I think we hired few, if any, additional personnel and had little, if any, additional real operating costs, other than a cost of living increase in salaries. Those increases to which you refer, in reality, are for program extension, notably for the VIP.

Is Mr. Hillier here?

Mr. Jay Hill: Just before we get to that, is the VIP program increase resulting from the changes that were made actually included in the operating expenditures?

Hon. John McCallum: I'll let Mr. Hillier answer that. If it's such a large increase, it must be.

To answer your second question on mustard gas, that expenditure is made by the Department of National Defence, so that will not be in our numbers.

Mr. Jack Stagg: If I could just make a point--and Keith is going to answer the detailed questions on grants and contributions and increasing the operational budget--our operational budget is around $230 million a year, which is around 8%. It's not out of line with any other departments and agencies, as it sits. On any increase in true operations, which includes salary, operations, and maintenance, this year there were some additional salary costs because of signed collective bargaining agreements, and some administrative costs related to program initiatives. That includes the VIP program--we need somebody to administer the larger program. There are some additional costs in salaries to primary caregivers and costs related to enhanced Veterans Affairs commemoration programs. Basically that's it. There's a minimal increase in our own administrative costs--salaries, operations, and maintenance.

With that, I'll turn it over to Keith.

º (1625)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Mr. Hillier, be brief.

Mr. Keith Hillier (Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Veterans Affairs): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of points to make. On the amount you're referring to in vote 1, in this department we have something called “other health purchase services”. These are not grants such as pensions and what have you. So when you see our operating costs go up, it's not necessarily due to the cost of administration. That vote also includes the cost of our treatment and services, drugs, and what have you. The VIP is a separate line object, which you'll see in the detailed tables in the estimates.

The other factor in the number this year has to do with our capital projects. We have about $223 million to run the department. That includes more than $180 million in salaries, and some O and M. But as you are probably aware, we have two major capital projects. One is the multi-year renovation of the hospital at Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue, which is a $67 million project. There's also the restoration of our European monuments, essentially the Vimy monument, which will be $30 million over multiple years. An additional $34 million was put in this year with respect to what we expect...how to advance the construction and the renovation projects.

As we all know, the cost of medical services and prescription drugs continues to rise.

On the amount vis-à-vis the mustard gas, that is in the estimates for the Department of National Defence and not in the figures for the Department of Veterans Affairs.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you, Mr. Hillier.

Mr. Perron is next for five minutes.

[Translation]

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Mr. Chairman, before you put me on the clock, earlier, you alluded to the fact that the deputy minister hailed from Cambridge. I would just like to point out that our Minister of Veterans Affairs is a native Quebecer from Montreal. Generally, anything from Quebec is a quality product.

All kidding aside, let's get back to serious matters. One of your programs is called Canada Remembers. It's reminds me of Quebec's motto Je me souviens and I'd like you to keep that in mind when we refer to young veterans, that is CF members who served in the Gulf War, in Kosovo or in Serbia. All returning CF member are not necessarily suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, the injury referred to earlier by my colleague Claude. I believe some young soldiers were exposed to depleted uranium or, prior to being deployed to the Gulf region, were given drugs that hadn't been approved either by the Food and Drug Administration or by Canada. Minister, we need to take care of these young soldiers. We need to listen to them and to help them. They come to my office and they cry. We're talking about 30-year-old men who are the same age as my son , men who weighed 200 lbs when they signed up for duty in the Gulf War and who now weigh a mere 100 lbs. It's pathetic and my heart goes out to them, Minister. DND and VAC need to do something to help these young veterans. They're not likely to have anything to do with the Canada Remembers program because of how they've been treated, not only by DND and VAC, but also by Canadians in general. They need better solutions to their problems. I urge you to remember their plight during your tenure as Veterans Affairs Minister.

Hon. John McCallum: Thank you. First of all, believe me when I say that equity is indeed an important consideration. Very shortly after I assumed the Defence portfolio, I took steps to ensure that generals and corporals were treated equitably. We authorized payments for soldiers that had been exposed to chemicals. I agree with you that if we did something we should not have done, we have a responsibility to help these soldiers. That's why I said that one of my main priorities was to improve programs for younger veterans.

We need to make improvements in this area because existing programs aren't enough. In short, if a CF veteran requires medical care, he will get it. There's no question of that veteran having to prove that his health problems are linked to a particular drug. If a veteran is ill, he or she will receive treatment. Generally speaking, in terms of our responsibility to those who served our country under very trying conditions, I totally agree with you.

º (1630)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: I have one final comment, Mr. Chairman. I mentioned young people and I would now like to talk about the older generation, that is about people like myself. What plans do you have to provide assistance to the Royal Canadian Legion? There are two branches of the Royal Canadian Legion in my riding: one in Sainte-Thérèse and one in Deux-Montagnes. You would have to drop by for a visit and see if you could operate in similar premises. They are strapped for resources and for money because the number of veterans is dwindling and these branches are no longer viable operations. The Sainte-Thérèse branch is in dire straights. It needs to raise funds to buy new chairs because the old ones are falling apart. I think they are World War I or World War II vintage chairs. We need to help these veterans because the legion is often they only place they have to get together and chat with their friends.

Hon. John McCallum: We are working very closely with the legions. I visited three branches when I was in Winnipeg and attended a dozen or so meetings where legion members were present. Legions are extremely important organizations.

On the question of financial assistance, perhaps Jack Stagg could give you a bit of background on the subject.

[English]

Mr. Jack Stagg: Yes, we used to provide assistance to the legion. It wasn't very much, but we provided some measure of assistance. I'm not sure how many years ago, but certainly before my time in the department the legion came to us and said they didn't want the assistance. It was only a little bit, and they wanted to take care of their own affairs. It made them more independent to come to us with problems, to lobby, if they weren't receiving moneys from us. In fact, it was on the legion's initiative that we stopped providing money to them as an ex-service organization.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): The time is running out.

You have the last question, Mr. Price, if you could be brief.

Hon. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I have some flowers to throw, and then the pot will follow.

Hon. John McCallum: If you take long enough, by the time you throw the flowers, the time will be over.

Hon. David Price: You hope.

First of all, Minister, just as an example, I'll talk about the office in Sherbrooke, Quebec. The location is ideal. You've done a lot of work in the last couple of years on expanding that office, giving more services. The location, as I said, is good. It's central--we have a large rural area with an awful lot of veterans there, particularly the older veterans, World War II. It's always offered good service, it's always had a good reputation, and I've had nothing but positive feedback. But over the last little while we've been having negative feedback. It's not about the office; they still offer super service. The problem is the phone system to get in there.

I understand it can be a real plus having a centralized phone system. The service can be expanded to more hours and all that. The problem our veterans are having, though, is they are not getting through. They're not able to talk to anybody. And our veterans, particularly the older ones, are not used to the idea of leaving messages and pushing buttons and getting around.

I'd like to hear that you're going to move ahead and get some more real people on the end of the lines so that our veterans can have somebody to talk to.

º (1635)

Hon. John McCallum: Jack might have a comment, but let me say one thing first.

I was very concerned about that, because I had heard about these problems. Then last week, when I was in Winnipeg, I received a briefing and saw some fairly dramatic charts. They had it by day the number of times veterans called in and the line was busy. The chart went like this, and then one day or one week it went just through the roof. Something extremely negative happened to the phone system and it generated many complaints. But then they took certain measures. They made some changes. And if you look at that same chart for the following weeks, the number was reduced to almost zero.

There are still some problems, but I think that was a short-term episode that caused a huge problem and many complaints. In subsequent days, according to the chart I saw, the numbers had come down dramatically.

I get the impression from that--the deputy can contradict me or amplify as he sees fit--that the problem was very real but it has been dealt with satisfactorily.

Mr. Jack Stagg: I don't have much to add, Minister. You're absolutely right.

We understand people are older and they get frustrated with phone calls. We've just gone to a centralized system now, and it will be of benefit in the longer term, because it will free our area counsellors to do more face-to-face work with veterans. In fact, in the end it will allow us to have at least one meeting or one direct contact with a veteran every year to see how they're doing.

There is a downside sometimes, if the phone system gets clogged and doesn't work. On the other hand, there is a real benefit to the veterans, we think, in the longer term. We also think we've ironed out some of those problems. We've put what we call “tiger teeth” together to get at this stuff when it happens so that it doesn't last for five or six hours or two days or something; it's fixed right away.

We're very conscious of it. We really do want to improve the service, and we think we'll fix the problems over time.

Hon. John McCallum: If I may make one last comment on that, related also in part to Mr. Hill's question about administrative costs, it's a fact that over the last five or ten years our applications for pensions have gone up, up, up, and our staff resources have been essentially flat.

If we're to avoid increasing waiting time, we have to increase our productivity dramatically. So far we've been able to do that. The waiting times have not deteriorated, but it requires continuous changes in organization and productivity improvements to deal with this steadily rising number of applications.

So far I think the department has handled that, and it's been partly through measures like the centralization of certain administrative functions.

Hon. David Price: I agree with the minister that the phone service is a good idea, because it does give an extended service to veterans. And quite often they can solve the problem on the phone. There again, I have nothing but good things to say about your offices and the service they're supplying. The veterans are happy with it, so that's a good thing.

I'd just ask if you would give us the status on the graves and gravestones, the upkeep, what the situation is.

Hon. John McCallum: The situation is that there are two categories of veterans' graves. There are those for which this department has a mandate to provide full funeral services, including gravestones and other aspects of the funeral. That would be all of those veterans who either died from a pensionable illness or who have income levels below a cut-off.

There has been no backlog. There have been no complaints. There have been no problems for those veterans for whom the department has a direct mandate.

For all other veterans, we do not have a direct mandate. The bulk of them...my father, for example, was a veteran. When he died we never thought of Veterans Affairs. So the bulk of veterans look after their own funerals, or their families do.

The Last Post Fund is a private organization with support from Veterans Affairs to provide markers, after a certain lapse of time, for those veterans who don't receive direct services from our department. This is a fairly decentralized organization with separate operations in each province. In one or two provinces there were backlogs, and that's what caused the problem.

We have been in close consultation and collaboration with these groups. We have been assured that all of those backlogs will be cleared up by the summer. I say by the summer because in wintertime there's a problem. As soon as the snow is gone and the summer arrives, this problem will be dealt with.

º (1640)

Hon. David Price: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you, Mr. Price.

Thank you, Minister, Deputy Minister, Assistant Deputy Ministers, and Director for appearing before this committee today. We'll see you on April 1.

My apology, the Minister of Defence is coming on April 1.

While the minister and the rest of the guests move slowly out, we'll proceed with the second part of our meeting. This is going to be a briefing on the celebration of the 60th anniversary of D-Day. Our witness today is Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. O'Reilly, the floor is yours.

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, for attending and thank you for the opportunity to follow through on what's taking place on the 60th anniversary.

There are many events at various cenotaphs locally, national events in Ottawa, and events in major cities across Canada. There will be an unveiling of a poster, as the minister has talked about, and over the next period of time there will be educational products and many other things.

I draw your attention to the fact that I have circulated, in both official languages, a document that lays out some of the commemorative events for 2004, and also the local ones. I am on the 60th anniversary committee, which is chaired by Major-General Richard Rohmer. It has Garth Webb and other veterans on it. Veterans Affairs is on it and DND has a representative on it.

The 60th anniversary in Normandy is part of a celebration that is taking place in France and in other countries throughout the year. In this brochure there's a Toronto Star article on Canadians invited to France for the 80 days of celebration throughout France.

The next page shows you the various things you can look up on the website. I invite you to visit that and to print some things off, everything from accommodation to maps, for better understanding, and then the various programs that are going to take place in France and how to register for them.

Keep in mind some of the controversy that surrounds the events in France. This is the 60th anniversary. The Queen will be there. Heads of many countries will be there. Usually the President of the United States visits every ten years, so they expect that he's going to be there.

All of the events that take place in Normandy are basically run by the French government. They are giving a medal, which we're trying to work on, and a patch. They decided they would only give this patch, or this medal, to people who attend. We're trying to cover that off and make sure that every veteran who was involved with D-Day is eligible for the medal and the patch. Keep in mind this is not the Canadian government; it's the Government of France that is running it.

º (1645)

Mr. John O'Reilly: The French have agreed to that since this came out. We're now in the process of making sure that everyone is self-registered, so that we know what regiment they were in and can send that information to Veterans Affairs.

I also hope, as I indicated to you, that you'll visit the websites. We're trying to produce some householder camera-ready copy with articles, pictures, and maps that you can use. The 60th anniversary committee is working hard at trying to work out the logistics. There are some people who are working day and night trying to make sure the facilities for the veterans over there are adequate.

The trouble you have, of course, when you run something like this is there are logistical problems in France with security. The last time I was there, last year for the opening of the Juno Beach Centre, and I was a member of that committee, they had a general strike in France. We couldn't get in and we couldn't get out. The roads were blocked. The people, the unions in France, tend to wait for a major event before they have their demonstrations. There would be a lot of things that will happen over there that we have no control over.

The events that are going to happen in Canada are different. They're well planned. The Veterans Affairs people have a good handle on the number of events that are going to take place. They will roll out the educational material; the products that are coming out of Veterans Affairs will certainly roll out very quickly. I think you'll be pleased with the number of things that are coming out.

On this information that I'm trying to provide to you, a lot of people that I talk to confuse the First World War, the Second World War, the various battle sites, and the various events that took place during the D-Day invasion. I believe if you go through the areas, you will see that the first page indicates the Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno, and Sword beaches, where the people from various countries came ashore. On the second page, the shaded area shows you how far they advanced on the June 6. As I said, I invite you to run this on your own computers, but I wanted to give you an idea of the information that is available.

The Battle of Caen, the Battle of St-Lo, the Operation Cobra, the allied thrust and the counter thrust, the Battle of the Falaise Pocket, all of these things are of great interest. One of the things that a lot of people don't know, of course, is that the invasion of France ended on September 2. Some of the pictures that are in there from the photo gallery will show you some of the events that happened.

By the way, I don't purport to be an expert on this, so don't get too technical on it. It will show you the various battles and what the significance was if you go to the battles on the various websites that are available, or we can supply them if you want. This was only a brief to let you know about what's going on in France on the D-Day celebrations.

Now keep in mind that a change will happen this year because the end of the war anniversary is 2005, and that will involve not only D-Day. This starts out as D-Day, and then it goes to Italy and to the various campaigns. It generates for 80 days, in France and other countries, the various liberations that took place in Holland, as the minister has indicated. There's a lot of activity in Europe. We're going to be hearing a lot about it.

I think all I wanted to do was make sure that members of Parliament have that information available. If they have problems or their veterans have problems, there are some easy ways to solve them and some hard ways. The easy way is to go to Veterans Affairs; the hard way is to try to do it on your own. I have found that Veterans Affairs have very capable people.

I don't get paid, so I can say that. They're not going to give me anything anyway, so I can go one way or the other, but I think it's important.

º (1650)

There are problems with veterans. When I did the Korean War monument in my hometown of Lindsay, because my brother-in-law's brother was killed in the Korean War, we thought he was the only person from Lindsay and we wanted to do a memorial for him. I finally tricked the town into putting me on a committee, and then I made a donation to the committee for the memorial and it ended up happening. But the family had no interest in coming originally because it only brought back bad memories, and you'll find that if you deal with veterans.

I was at the opening of the hospital in Parkwood in London, and some of the veterans there were really great and others were very bitter. Post-traumatic stress syndrome is not shell-shock, or whatever it was called back then. I think we've all studied that on the defence committee. There are problems with some of the veterans who don't want to be reminded of what happened to them, and some of their families don't want to be reminded. But generally, we have all kinds of examples of heroism; besides Saving Private Ryan and all that stuff, we do have other live examples. All you have to do is sit with somebody like Smokey Smith and hear some of the stories.

Last year I had the pleasure of touring sites with Cliff Chadderton. He was a scout car operator, and he took us to places we didn't even know existed where battles took place, and there are memorials that have been maintained by small French villages and people in remote areas of the country.

With that, I'm open to any questions the committee or the minister may have.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. Hill, do you have a question?

Mr. Jay Hill: Perhaps we want to bid adieu to the minister before he leaves. I'm hopeful that the minister as he's leaving will be able to guarantee that there won't be an election on June 7, as the rumour mill has it, because I notice this return to Normandy is scheduled for June 1 to 11, and I'd hate to see the minister and a few other MPs over in Europe when they should be campaigning.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Don't worry about that, Mr. Hill.

Mr. Jay Hill: I do have some questions for Mr. O'Reilly. I thank him for the presentation about the preparations for D-Day celebrations, both here and abroad.

I'm concerned, obviously, because of some of the situations in the past, when it comes to things like travel, comfort for the veterans, picking up their costs. For example, I'd hate to see so-called dignitaries who might be on this delegation travelling business class and then find out that veterans are shoved back in the economy section of the plane. So I'm hopeful that the minister and Mr. O'Reilly are very cognizant of those types of things. I don't know whether planning has proceeded to that extent yet, but perhaps he could at least tell the committee that the plan, at least at this point, is to include 60 veterans on the return to Normandy, a portion on that 10-day trip to France from June 1 to 11 I just mentioned. Also, I note from his document that students and cadets will join the delegation. Does he have any idea of the numbers and how they will be selected?

So I've got all those types of concerns, Mr. Chair, about the comfort for our veterans, that there's no disparity with the so-called dignitaries. In my mind, and perhaps Mr. O'Reilly would agree with me, the real dignitaries are the veterans. So let's make sure they get the five-star hotel and not the many politicians that might be along. As well, what is the ratio of politicians that might be going versus the 60 veterans?

º (1655)

Mr. John O'Reilly: First of all, the selection process for veterans was done through the various veterans associations. They were asked to pick people from various areas of Canada to participate in the D-Day events. So 60 people were chosen, not by Veterans Affairs, but by the regimental associations that exist--the Army League and the Navy League, that type of thing. If there wasn't a regimental organization, it was done through the legions. So the selection process is over.

The band that has been chosen to go over is the Burlington Teen Tour Band, which is a very popular group of people aged 16 to 21. They're paying their own way. Some of their costs will be covered over there. The band is raising money on its own to go over, and there will be some subsidization.

The problem you have when you go to subsidization is where do you start and where do you stop? The British government came out with a lottery, and anyone who could prove they had participated in D-Day and were from England, Ireland, or Scotland were eligible. We haven't done that because we're talking about D-Day and not beyond D-Day. So when you start to put in the other campaigns--the Italian campaign--and deal with veterans associations, all of them were responsible for the effort it took to liberate Europe, not just on D-Day. That was the start of it.

I agree with you 100%, Jay, by the way--

Mr. Jay Hill: You're not answering the question, Mr. O'Reilly, with all due respect. I asked if you knew how much money was going to be paid to the so-called dignitaries who are going to be travelling, how many there are, and how much financial support will be given to the veterans, students, and cadets. What are those numbers? All of that is vague here. Has it not been decided yet?

Mr. John O'Reilly: The official delegation, of which they are part, is covered by the commemorative fund of Veterans Affairs, as are the in-Canada ones. But your concern is my concern.

On the first hotels that were booked--and some of them were booked over a year ago--the Government of France came along and cancelled all the reservations and moved everybody ten miles up. They're moving veterans from all countries. I have a serious problem with that, and we're working on it.

On some of the things that are going on over there with the Government of France, because of security, for instance, they've closed the road. They want us to go to a large international celebration beyond Caen. If you know France, the Normandy coast is here, and you go up from there. The Canadians want to centre on the Juno Beach area because we have a memorial there, a good building, and so forth. You cannot physically get from one place to the other and come back and have tea with the Queen at 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon. So some of those problems are being worked on.

I can't answer you about the direct funding on that, but I'll certainly get that information for you.

Not only the veterans who go over on the official delegation, but all of the veterans who register and are going on their own, many with their families, will require medical facilities. Canada is taking a lead role in making sure they're taken care of. Sometimes the facilities in other countries are not up to what they should be, so there will be a delegation of medical personnel, as there was last year--doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. We're trying to find out what medications the veterans are on so they can be carried by that delegation and be readily available. So some of those things are taken care of.

I'll get the exact numbers for you. I've gone on delegations and have wondered what I'm doing there--there are fourteen people and one veteran. I think you've probably had the same experience. I've asked those questions.

» (1700)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Mr. O'Reilly, is there already a budget for the whole trip? Is there a budget for the whole package?

Mr. John O'Reilly: Part of the estimates you're dealing with have to do with the overall budget for the commemorative side of the Veterans Affairs activities.

Mr. Jay Hill: Just to wrap up my part, you haven't been able to tell us how much money for this particular trip and how much of it is going to be for the so-called dignitaries and how much is going to financially assist these 60 veterans, students, and cadets. The chairman is trying to ask this question as well.

Mr. John O'Reilly: I'll get you that information.

Just one other thing, Mr. Chair, on a point of order, if you like, in my position I am not privy to the inside workings of Veterans Affairs. I'm not a parliamentary secretary. I'm not sworn. So I have to ask for that information, and I will.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Maybe we should ask the minister.

Mr. John O'Reilly: It's not hard to get. But I don't have it with me.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Mr. Bachand.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see that here in Canada, the first half of the year will be devoted to marking the Normandy campaign. We've heard repeatedly that the Italian campaign is neglected and given short shrift, compared to the Battle of Normandy. I wouldn't want the focus of the commemorative activities to be solely on the Normandy campaign and for the Italian campaign to be overlooked once again. Recently we heard how soldiers waged a fierce battle during this campaign. It's unfortunate that it's not commemorated in some manner.

Could you provide us with some explanations, Mr. O'Reilly? Will both campaigns be commemorated in equal fashion? What are some of the activities planned and why is a delegation being sent to Normandy, and none to Italy? Couldn't that be arranged?

[English]

Mr. John O'Reilly: There is. The first event takes place in France on June 6, which is to mark the first appearance of the allied veterans, the start of the liberation of Europe. June 6 was the day they went ashore. It's the 60th anniversary, so there's a celebration. But those celebrations go on for 80 days, and in those 80 days it moves from one place to another. I have a book on each one of them and it's this thick. I'll get it for you. I'd be here all night trying to explain the various celebrations that go on all across Europe, including the African campaign, the Italian campaign, and the bombing of London--all the various things that went on throughout the Second World War. The actual end of the Second World War most people mark as the landing at Juno Beach and the Normandy coast. Then it goes on to Italy. It rolls along for 80 days. I wanted to deal with the Canadian participation in Italy, which was quite intense. The Vandoos, I believe, were very prominent in the liberation of Italy, and I'm sure that's what you're getting at.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: In the document submitted, you indicate that events taking place in Canada during the first half of the year will commemorate the Battle of Normandy, while events during the second half will mark the Italian campaign.

Here in Canada, are you planning to commemorate only the Normandy and Italian campaigns, or will you be marking all of the battles that took place in Europe up until the end of the war?

» (1705)

[English]

Mr. John O'Reilly: I think every battle in Europe will be emphasized, from June 6 throughout the whole year. What I want to make Canadians aware of through parliamentarians is that this starts on June 6 and goes on for 80 days in Europe. A lot of our events will take place on November 11 and leading up to it. So, yes, Italy is a big part of the recognition of what Canadians contributed to the liberation of Europe.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Mr. Calder.

Mr. Murray Calder: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In fact, that was one of my questions, and I'll even follow along on that while you're on the subject. Of course, May 2005 is going to be a big celebration and it is one of the things that the veterans who fought in Italy, referred to as the D-Day dodgers, who fought at the battle of Ortona and were involved in the capture of the Gothic line, the Hitler line.... Basically, at that point, they had been given one of the fronts, and then D-Day was the second front that Joseph Stalin was asking for at that point in time.

I'm wondering, John, what is planned in May 2005? Maybe get this on the record to make sure the D-Day dodgers are not ignored.

The second question is to go to what will happen this year for the landing of D-Day Operation Overlord. What happens if there is, for instance, a strike in France that would cause problems with veterans going to the different functions and everything? What contingency plan is in place for that?

Mr. John O'Reilly: The transportation system throughout the various events, and I'm dealing with.... What Canada is dealing with in Normandy is June 1 to June 11 as being the time the official delegation is participating in Normandy. That's the area I'm trying to bring to your attention.

In terms of the other events that will take place, first of all, last year at the opening of the Juno Beach Centre the bus system broke down because there were so many buses trying to get to the Juno Beach Centre and there was no place to park them. So they've now made a contingency plan that there will be shuttles. We'll bring everybody to an area where there's room to park a bus. So the veterans don't have to walk very far; they'll be taken in shuttle buses to the Juno Beach Centre.

The indication we have is that most veterans who participated in D-Day are mainly interested in going back to the Juno Beach area. That's their area of concentration and that's where they want to spend their time. So the battles and so forth of Arromanches may not have that big a Canadian delegation at them because we're unable to get back and forth to them. I think most veterans have indicated to me....

Keep in mind that we're dealing with a group of people who are over 80 years old. A lot of care and consideration has to be given to the veteran, not to the official delegation, as Mr. Hill has indicated and as I have indicated. I think the more time we spend making sure our veterans are taken care of while we're over there, the better the occasion will be.

Mr. Murray Calder: I have one more question, and it's basically about 2005 again. You said this year there's going to be a patch and a commemorative medal for D-Day. Is there any talk of the same thing for next year, which would be at the end of the Second World War, and to make sure it not only covers the ones who were part of Operation Market Garden but also the ones who were in fact part of the Italian campaign?

Mr. John O'Reilly: First, the medal and the patch are the purview of the Government of France, not the Government of Canada.

What I think the minister has agreed to--but I haven't heard yet officially--and what we're hoping to do.... He wants to take this 60th anniversary committee and roll it into the 2005 committee so there's some continuity, and then you can look at the whole spectrum of 2005 as being the really big celebration where every veteran is involved, not just people who were at Juno Beach.

The Juno Beach thing came about through various contributions, but it was really due to the driving force of Garth Webb, who thought there was nothing there to celebrate or to show the contribution Canadians made and to celebrate Canada. If you go in there and go through the exhibits and go through the thing, you'll realize it is a Canadian memorial, and I think it's really well done.

Originally, we try to get people interested in making sure the next generation knows about it and visits it, and then you go on from there. If you go to the Pegasus memorial or the Atlantic Wall museum--and they're listed in here--any of those museums over there, the Gold Beach museum, Arromanches, the memorial gardens, the reflective pools, the various things that are over there that commemorate Canada's commitment, it leads you on to the other things you're talking about.

» (1710)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you.

Mr. Hill, do you have a brief question?

Mr. Jay Hill: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I guess my first question would be—just so that I might understand and any viewers might understand, since I think this is being televised—what is the role and job description of your position with the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Mr. O'Reilly?

Mr. John O'Reilly: I am his assistant. As a member of Parliament, I act as his assistant, which I guess is somewhat similar to the role of a parliamentary secretary, except I'm not sworn to the Privy Council oath. Therefore, I'm not able to answer questions in question period on his behalf.

I felt that there was a need for the minister to have someone to act on his behalf when he's not available. To give you an example, I filled in last week for him at the opening of the traumatic stress unit at Parkwood Hospital in London. I made a speech on his behalf, visited the veterans, and did the official opening. I have been invited to travel to different things the minister is unable to attend, and to make sure there's a representative there from Parliament to carry that Veterans Affairs voice in an official capacity.

It's not a paid position, but I think it's something that needed to be filled. I think there are three departments of the government that don't have parliamentary secretaries. I was the parliamentary secretary of the Veterans Affairs minister when he was the defence minister, and he asked me if I would be interested in helping him and I said I would. While we were discussing it, the Prime Minister called and asked me if I would be interested in helping him, and I said, “Certainly”.

It involves some official functions. I don't have to sit here on Fridays; that's the best thing. Fridays are for parliamentary secretaries and critics, like yourself, who have to be here on Fridays to answer and ask those brilliant questions at question period. I don't have to answer them, so that's the big advantage.

I think there was a void that needed to be filled, and I volunteered for it. I have an interest in Veterans Affairs, obviously. You and I have served on the committee, and you have the same interest in Veterans Affairs that I have, which is to make sure that veterans are treated with proper dignity and respect and receive all the things they should receive.

My role was to make sure that the veterans affairs minister had an assistant in Parliament who could fill in, for instance, in events like this, and particularly in official events that need someone.

Mr. Jay Hill: Mr. Chairman?

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Colleagues, try to be a little bit briefer.

Go ahead, Mr. Hill.

Mr. Jay Hill: That was a very long answer for someone in an unpaid position as an assistant. Hopefully, Mr. Chairman, Mr. O'Reilly, in his role as an assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, since the minister had to get called away and couldn't stay for the entire meeting, will provide some advice about this particular enterprise that Veterans Affairs has undertaken, this return to Normandy trip for June 1 to 11. I hope, Mr. O'Reilly, you will provide some advice about the concerns I'm expressing and that others have expressed.

We, unfortunately, have had ample evidence in the past. I was reading in the newspaper just a month or so ago about a recent trip of a few veterans to commemorate the Battle of Ortona that, sadly, took a lot of Canadian lives. It was one of the fiercest battles of World War II, Ortona, Italy. Our government did not support the few veterans who did attend that to the extent that other countries did, and I think that's a bit of a black mark against our country and our government.

You have, for example, the now, I would suggest, fairly criticized $5.3 million trip of the Governor General of Canada, her circumpolar trip with some of her friends. When we, as a nation, can spend $5.3 million for a trip like that, I hope you carry the message that some of us, on behalf of our veterans, are going to be pretty diligent in watching the Governor General over the next few months. It would be right for her to accompany this delegation and be there for this celebration in her role as the commander-in-chief of Canadian Forces, but if she is there, there should not be a big disparity between her standard of living while on this trip and that of the veterans. So if you could carry advice to the minister to be ever vigilant in that regard, I would certainly appreciate it.

» (1715)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Mr. Hill, I'm confident that Mr. O'Reilly is highly capable and is going to pass on that message. I agree with you that the veterans should be the number one priority for us, and I'm confident that Mr. O'Reilly will work hard towards achieving that.

Mr. John O'Reilly: I want to assure Mr. Hill and committee members and anyone watching, if you have ever dealt with Garth Webb or Richard Rohmer, believe me, they are not shrinking violets; they do not sit back. They say exactly what they want to say. In fact, when I asked Garth Webb to write a letter, he said, “Who do I have to give it to to flower it up, because you know what I'm going to say?”

So I appreciate that. Your concerns are my concerns, and although I couch my words very carefully, I take everything you say very seriously and I agree with you.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Janko Peric): Thank you, sir.

As there are no more questions, the meeting is adjourned.