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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, March 25, 2004

1110

The Chair (Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.))

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley (Chief Electoral Officer of Canada, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

1115

1120

1125

1130

The Chair

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, CPC)

1135

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. John Reynolds

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Chair

Ms. Janice Vézina (Senior Director, Election Financing and Corporate Services, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mrs. Judi Longfield

1140

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Chair

Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ)

1145

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

1150

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Chair

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

1155

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Ms. Diane Davidson (Deputy Chief Electoral Officer and Chief Legal Counsel, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

1200

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, CPC))

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

1205

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, CPC)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Ted White

1210

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

1215

Mr. Ted White

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Ted White

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Ted White

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Claude Duplain (Portneuf, Lib.)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

1220

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Claude Duplain

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

1225

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Réal Ménard

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Ms. Janice Vézina

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Ms. Janice Vézina

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

1230

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Janice Vézina

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

1235

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mrs. Judi Longfield

1240

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

1245

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl)

CANADA

Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 011

3rd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, March 25, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Á (1110)

[English]

The Chair (Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.)): Colleagues, if we could begin....

Before I introduce our witnesses, I have just a couple of housekeeping things.

First of all, I apologize that we're not on television; I assure you that I've done everything I possibly could. The two rooms were taken up, I think you know, by public accounts and one other committee. I then tried to get the portable television equipment, as you saw in our last meeting. Although we were advised by the highest authority in the land, Monsieur Louis Bard, that we could get it, we couldn't get the portable equipment. I apologize. I know we had motions to that effect, and I know that Mr. Kingsley likes to be on television and that the committee likes to be on television, but we've done everything we can.

Next Tuesday, at our regular time and place, we return to work with the democratic action plan. Next Thursday, at the moment, assuming that he's available—and we think he is—it's the Speaker's estimates. So we will have done the two main estimates that we are supposed to deal with. Then, by the way, it's the break.

Are there any questions about the schedule, or where we're at with things?

Our order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), is the main estimates for 2004-2005, vote 25, for the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, under the Privy Council Office, referred to the committee on Tuesday, February 24, 2004.

Our witnesses today are no strangers to us. One is Diane Davidson, who is the Deputy Chief Electoral Officer and Chief Legal Counsel. Diane, welcome. We also have Janice Vézina, senior director of election financing and corporate services, and of course the Chief Electoral Officer, Jean-Pierre Kingsley.

We welcome you all to our committee again.

Mr. Kingsley, I understand you have a statement.

Colleagues, we have some material that has already been circulated to us.

We're in your hands, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley (Chief Electoral Officer of Canada, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to appear before you to present the 2004-2005 main estimates for my office. I wish to thank you for having introduced my two colleagues who are with me today.

Today I will outline our major priorities for the fiscal year starting April 1, 2004. I will also bring you up to date on my office's preparations for the next general election and on the steps we have taken to implement Bill C-24. Before concluding, I will wish to make a few comments about schedule 3 of the Canada Elections Act, a matter of some interest to members of Parliament.

I would remind you that my office operates on two separate budget authorities, an annual appropriation or vote 25, and the statutory authority. Vote 25 is a component of our budget, which you are now considering. It covers the salaries of our permanent or indeterminate employees, which amount to $13.2 million. The Treasury Board determines the level of funding for vote 25. If I were to appear to discuss that only, this would be the end of my presentation.

That statutory authority, on the other hand, covers all the other expenses of my office. The estimates for the statutory authority may vary substantially from one fiscal year to the next, since they reflect the particular activities we must carry out under the various statutes governing the Chief Electoral Officer's activities. They relate to general elections and by-elections, and to the redistribution process that takes place every ten years.

Our fiscal 2004-2005 budget for the statutory authority is $37 million—which must be taken into account over the $12 million I just mentioned. The major items in our 2004-2005 estimates under both vote 25 and the statutory authority include: $9.1 million for information technology programs; $6.2 million for the national register of electors; $3.9 million for maintaining event readiness activities; $2.8 million for employee benefits payments; $2.4 million for electoral geography programs; $2.3 million for ongoing public education and information programs; $17.5 million for other ongoing costs of the office; and $6 million for the annual allowances to qualifying political parties.

On the last item of $6 million, I would point out that these allowances are normally paid quarterly. As a transitional measure for the first year under Bill C-24, the four quarterly allowances for January to December 2004 were paid in full in January of this year. The item in the estimates therefore covers the estimated amounts for the January-March 2005 period. If a general election is held in 2004, we will make adjustments later in the year to compensate for any over- or underpayment.

Mr. Chairman, the priorities of my office continue to reflect input from this committee, as well as our own extensive evaluations after the 2000 general election. As a result, we continue to focus particular attention on the coverage and currency of the list of electors, which I'll say more about; the accuracy and effectiveness of voter information cards; better communication with electors; and on improving significantly the public inquiry system. I will cover each of these priorities as I provide you with an overview of our recent progress and plans for 2004-2005.

First, on voter registration, on October 15, 2003, all members of the House of Commons and registered parties received, on request, the annual updated versions of the list of electors for their electoral districts under the current representation order—or 301 seats. Lists of electors under the 2003 representation order—or 308 seats—will be provided to candidates at the start of the next election. This is in accordance with the law. We have continued our updates using administrative sources and lists of electors from recent provincial and territorial elections.

We have received recent lists of electors from every province and territory, except for Alberta and British Columbia, where elections are not expected until next year. We regularly update the national register from the British Columbia provincial register, and we recently acquired access to the drivers' licence data of Alberta. This allowed us to update the addresses of more than 160,000 electors in Alberta, and to identify more than 60,000 potential new electors, who we included in our recent mailing to those youth who have turned 18 since the 2000 general election.

Á (1115)

We have also added more than 270,000 electors, from national mailings to tax filers, who consented to be added to the register on their income tax forms, but for whom citizenship had not yet been confirmed.

Using these various sources, we have added more than 2.4 million new electors to the register since January 2003, including some one million youth, age 18 to 24.

As part of our initiatives to address the decline in youth voting, last month I wrote to some 1.1 million youth who turned 18 since the 2000 general election, informing them of their right to vote and encouraging them to exercise it. Registration kits were included for some 300,000 youth among that number. Those 300,000 are not yet registered. To date, more than 41,000 of them have responded positively, and their names will be added to the register. Once the election is called--because this is not where it finishes--I will send a final mailing to the 240,000 to 250,000 youth who are still unregistered, to encourage them to register and to vote.

We estimate that some 95% of all eligible electors are presently on the list, versus our target of 92%--the level that used to be achieved under enumeration. We further estimate that some 82% of all electors, within two percentage points, are at the correct address, versus our target of 77%.

We expect to add up to 3% of electors to the list as a result of revision during the election--the equivalent of what used to be added following enumeration. We also expect address changes for some 12% of electors as a result of targeted revision, regular revision, registration at the advanced polls, and registration on election day.

Returning officers have been directed to provide, at the beginning of the election period, a list of quality measures and revision estimates to each candidate, along with a list of the areas to be targeted for door-to-door revision during the election. We will target student residences, high-density buildings, new developments, seniors residences, as well as other areas.

We will be seeking the cooperation of candidates to identify additional areas for targeting, if required, so that as many electors as possible are added to the list before the election date. It will be important for candidates to take steps to make sure their offices gear up to handle the additional calls from people who want to be added to the list. After all, revision is the name of the game when you have a permanent list. There is no other way under a permanent list. That's what I said at the 2000 general election, and that's what I'm repeating now. It's just as true.

The register is resulting in significant savings to taxpayers. In the original business case for the register presented to Parliament when the bill was being discussed in detail with this committee, we estimated that some $30 million net per election at the federal level would be saved. That is net of the investment costs and annual maintenance costs, compared to door-to-door enumeration, beginning with the 38th--the next--general election. In fact, the original business case was realized--that is to say we achieved the break-even point--at the 37th general election. Moreover, we're on track to save another $30 million of taxpayers' money at the 38th general election. Indeed, we are today some $40 million ahead of the business case at the federal level alone.

The register has become central to an ongoing partnership with provincial electoral agencies. Savings already realized at the provincial and municipal levels are estimated at $30 million. The register data were used for the last two Ontario provincial general elections, saving $23 million, and the last two province-wide municipal elections in Ontario, saving $6 million.

The Chief Electoral Officer of Newfoundland and Labrador reports that he is saving about $1.1 million over a four-year period because his province now uses the federal register and no longer carries out an enumeration. The City of Winnipeg also used the register data at its last two elections, saving $1.2 million over the two events. On top of that, outside of these amounts, Elections B.C. has estimated that it will save taxpayers in that province some $11 million at the next election if it can merge, by law, the federal and provincial registers, instead of conducting an enumeration. That change is being contemplated now in British Columbia.

Á (1120)

In 2004-05 we will begin a strategic review of all aspects of voter registration. We will explore further the feasibility of online voter registration, and I will wish to consult you at that time on the possibility of allowing electors to register in the constituency offices of members of the House of Commons.

On a related matter, official maps, atlases, and products for the new 308 ridings, including the transposition of votes, have been provided to members of Parliament and to parties. We have also offered MPs and parties preliminary versions of election maps and geographic documents. Revised maps, revised versions of maps, and related documents will be provided by April 1. In 2004-05 we will continue to improve the accessibility of electoral geography products and services by making more maps and products available in digital form and through the Internet.

[Translation]

I will now continue my remarks in French. As I mentioned earlier, one of our ongoing priorities since the 2000 election has been to improve our communications with electors. The steps we have taken will make it much easier for electors to obtain timely and accurate information about registration and how and where to vote.

First, in response to concerns raised within this committee, we've developed a new procedure for the voter information card. Between the 10th and 12th day after the election is called, those on the list will receive an information card. The address on each card will include the person's name as well as the words “to the elector”—not “to the occupant”, as was the case in the 2000 election. This will ensure that Canada Post delivers the card to the address rather than forwarding it if the elector has moved; it will also inform the elector who has moved in what to do if he or she is not registered.

Between the 19th and 17th day before election day, reminder cards—so there will be reminder cards—will be distributed to all households, encouraging those who did not receive a voter information card to take steps to have their names added to the list. In the by-elections where we tested this approach, it proved more successful than the approach followed in 2000.

In addition, for the next general election Canadians will be able to find out easily where and when to vote from our website and through a new 24-hour voice recognition system that we are adding to our public inquiries service. For those who wish to find out if their name is on the voters' list, the system will have the capacity to transfer calls to the returning officer for that person's electoral district.

Soon after the next general election is called, a series of television and print advertisements will launch our national information campaign. In essence, this will be a “wake-up call” to Canadians—that famous wake-up call of the door-to-door census. The print advertisements will also indicate that the new electoral boundaries and names have come into effect. Electors who wish to locate their ridings or view the maps will be invited to call our toll free number or visit our website, where everything will be posted.

In light of the low rate of youth participation in 2000, our advertising and public relations campaign for the next general election will focus in particular on reaching young voters. In addition, we will have a number of partnerships with youth organizations. I briefed you on one of them, Student Vote 2004, when I appeared before you on March 9.

We're also preparing a specific advertising campaign to inform aboriginal people about the electoral process.

Á (1125)

We will include messages in community newspapers and on radio stations and the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. In addition, advertisements to reach ethnocultural communities are being developed. The television advertisements will include “voice over” messages in 12 languages other than English and French; print advertisements are being prepared in 24 other languages.

A key element of election readiness is the appointment and training of returning officers. Consistent with the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, the process of appointing returning officers for the new electoral districts began last fall, and the process is virtually complete.

Returning officers who had not been in that position for the 2000 election and did not previously receive training attended a five-day training session last fall. As new returning officers are appointed, they receive five days' training. Between January 12 and February 15, 2004, returning officers received a further three days training on our new processes, systems and procedures. The assistant returning officer and automation coordinator from each electoral district also attended—close to 1,000 people in all. These training sessions were the most professional we have ever held.

At the next general election, returning officers will benefit from the coaching and support of field liaison officers. Under this new management initiative, 24 field liaison officers across the country will provide functional leadership to returning officers for all their responsibilities. All the field liaison officers are experienced in election management at the riding level.

I would now like to turn to the implementation of Bill C-24 on political financing. Although most of our work in this regard was completed during fiscal year 2003-2004, I think it is important to brief you on the steps we took to facilitate the transition to the new rules. This was a major exercise.

In order to inform Canadians of the significant changes, an advertising campaign took place from December 15 to 31, 2003. We ran print advertisements in daily and weekly newspapers as well as aboriginal, minority language and ethnocultural publications. In addition, Internet banners, with a link to Election Canada's website, were posted on major current affairs and business websites from December 15 to December 29.

Elections Canada also developed an information kit, which includes a flyer highlighting the major changes introduced by Bill C-24 and backgrounders on specific issues. This kit has been distributed to political party headquarters, members of Parliament, senators, returning officers and major corporations and trade unions. Electoral district associations of registered political parties also receive an information kit as soon as they are registered. A series of information sheets and backgrounders have also been posted on the Elections Canada website. These will aid in interpreting the legislative provisions.

Handbooks and forms for candidates, nomination contestants and electoral district associations of registered political parties were posted on our website in late December 2003, and those for political parties and leadership contestants were posted in January 2004. New software for financial returns for candidates and nomination contestants was available at the end of January 2004. The software for electoral district associations, registered parties and leadership contestants was available at the end of February. In addition, we are preparing multimedia kits containing training videos, all forms, handbooks and manuals, as well as the software for financial returns. A number of these are available on our website and others will be available on DVD, which will soon be placed at your disposal.

The advisory committee of political parties has been closely involved in our implementation process. The September 25, 2003 meeting was devoted principally to the implementation of Bill C-24. This is the committee I established at this committee's instigation. Last autumn, I provided the committee with information sheets on the main provisions of the new legislation, as well as detailed responses to questions that various members had asked. Members of the advisory committee have been informed as soon as new products and new information documents were ready. Most of this is on our website.

Á (1130)

In 2004-2005, we will continue to register the various political entities covered by the rules introduced by Bill C-24, notably electoral district associations, if they are willing. We will receive, review, audit and publish the financial reports of registered parties and other entities covered by political financing rules; and, as always, we will ensure compliance with and enforcement of the act.

As Chief Electoral Officer, I must be mindful of the need to adapt our programs and recommend amendments to the legislation in response to changing circumstances and public expectations. In 2004-2005, we will develop a new strategic plan based on more sophisticated procedures for securing accurate and targeted feedback from our stakeholders, including this committee. It will benefit from a strategic evaluation that we will conduct during and after the next general election.

Before closing, I would like to say a few words about schedule 3 of the Canada Elections Act. As you know, in the electoral districts listed in that schedule the number of signatures required for the nomination of a candidate is 50, not 100. While I am aware that extra funds are allocated to members of the House of Commons if their ridings are listed in schedule 3, this is done outside the Canada Elections Act.

To be included in schedule 3, a constituency must include all or part of any electoral district that was specified in schedule 3 on July 15, 1971. Forty-one districts described in the 2003 representation order qualify, as do the federal electoral districts in the three northern territories, for a total of 44. For the moment, we are considering carrying forward the constituencies listed in the current schedule by including 19 of the electoral districts established by the 2003 representation order and the three territories, for a total of 22 electoral districts.

Under section 539 of the Canada Elections Act, I may include additional electoral districts in schedule 3 from the group of 44. I am therefore open to your suggestions on the 22 ridings that are not on the list. The proposed list is included in the handouts, along with the current list. I would point out that amendments to schedule 3 must be made within seven days of the representation order coming into force, that is, on the first dissolution of Parliament that occurs on or after April 1, 2004.

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful for the opportunity to offer this overview of our plans for 2004-2005 and our state of readiness for the next general election. My colleagues and I would now be pleased to answer your questions.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Kingsley. We appreciate that presentation.

We will now proceed to five- or six-minute exchanges, and we will move between the parties. I say exchanges because the answers and questions are included in the time.

The list I have at the moment, colleagues, includes John Reynolds, Judi Longfield, Réal Ménard, Carolyn Parrish, and Lorne Nystrom.

John Reynolds.

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, CPC): Thank you very much.

Mr. Kingsley, you say here that you're open to suggestions on schedule 3, and I want to make some very strong ones.

My riding is on a list that you're not recommending, yet population-wise it's one of the highest, I think, in the country. Density-wise, it's very dense at the bottom end, West Vancouver and Northland, but the rest is quite wide open.

The travel that I have to do, from the bottom of my riding to the top, is six hours driving time minimum, and that's if the ferries are on time. I have to take two ferries to get up to the northern part of the riding.

The returning officer in the last election made very strong representations to you to make it a schedule 3 riding. One of the candidates who tried to get nominated missed the nomination because he had to drive down to West Vancouver where the office was. The ferries were late that day. Because of that, he couldn't get registered to be a candidate.

It's not only me, it's the riding. People out west, where I'm from, are saying that in Ottawa they must draw a map and not understand what it's like when you live on the ocean and you have Gibson's Beach, the Sunshine Coast, and Powell River. It's not an island. I get that so many times from people in government departments who say “you live up in the island”. It's a mainland, but there are no roads into it. You have to take ferries to get to those locations. Yet there are 30,000 people in the Sunshine Coast and there are 20,000 people in Powell River.

If you take Mr. Strahl's riding, my own riding, and Mr. White's riding of 245,000, it darn near equals most of Newfoundland. You have Bonavista with roughly 90,000 in population and 2.97 density, and Chilliwack has 103,000 in population and 3.6 density. It's very close in density. Why you would think that one should not be in it and the other one should is beyond me.

The only one out of them is Ted's riding. Ted is here, and he can talk for himself. He has very high density and can drive around his riding within an hour or so, I think, from one end to the other, roughly.

You have to drive up to these ridings where there are five hours of ferry travel. I know that you say it's outside the Elections Act when the schedule 3 ridings get more money, but the fact is, in North Vancouver you can service your riding with one office. I have to have an office in West Vancouver, I have to have one in the Sunshine Coast, and I have to have one in Powell River. The ferry expenses alone probably equal $4,000 or $5,000 a year, plus the times I have to charter float planes to get to these various areas.

If I'm not included in schedule 3, I'm at a disadvantage. When I say “I”, I mean my constituents are. They don't get the same service.

I understand why some of these ridings are 30,000 and 40,000, but maybe we have to look at, as a Parliament, how we fund ourselves.

I think that on the schedule 3, there are a number of these that you've said you're not recommending. How do I make sure, under this section, that my riding is included in schedule 3?

Á (1135)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Through you, Mr. Chairman, sir, I intend to be extremely sensitive to the comments that I will get from members of Parliament concerning those 22 that are not in the initial list. I have heard you very clearly.

Mr. John Reynolds: Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Thank you.

The Chair: Judi Longfield.

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley. You've been very thorough in your presentation, but there are a couple of things I want to ask.

On page 2 of your presentation, you list a number of the major items that are under the 2004-2005 estimates. The second-last one is $17.5 million for other ongoing costs. I guess when I see a list that says “other ongoing” or “miscellaneous”, and it's as large as this, it begs the question: what is covered under other ongoing costs?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Mr. Chairman, Janice will answer.

The Chair: Janice Vézina.

Ms. Janice Vézina (Senior Director, Election Financing and Corporate Services, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): Yes, it is a large number in that list of numbers; $11.3 million are salaries of the staff at Elections Canada. That's what we call “ongoing costs”. These are salaries that are not directly linked to one project or another.

In addition, it includes the rental of the building, the space that we occupy. It's the rental of equipment, photocopiers, all of the “kitchen” items that keep the organization going.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: The rental items would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $6 million.

Ms. Janice Vézina: The rentals are $1.5 million. Services such as translation, training, IT professionals, and other experts that we may bring in to work on projects are $2 million. Printing, editing, publishing reports, and publishing various other documents are $800,000. Postage, courier, travel, including travel of returning officers for training, and things like that are $500,000.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: When you come back again next year, I think that for anything that's over a million dollars, it would perhaps be helpful to us to have it listed out.

The other one is the $6 million for annual allowances to qualifying political parties. Are the amounts given to each political party public figures?

Á (1140)

Ms. Janice Vézina: Yes, it's on our website.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: So I could punch them up on the website. Well, I won't take your time now, if I can get that on the website.

I represent an area that's growing very rapidly. I know a number of areas that just didn't exist two months ago, so they are obviously not included in any database. Is there anything I could be saying to those people now to get themselves on the list?

When I talk about the suggestion that it would be possible for them to come to my constituency office, if I didn't speak out against this, my staff would be down my back when I get back home. They can't handle the amount of work they currently have. Quite frankly, I'm a little bit uncomfortable that I could say to people, “Well, go to a political office and get your name on the list”. That bothers me, besides the fact that we just don't have the capacity to do it.

I want to know how you can get on the list today, and to strongly suggest that you don't give me the wonderful pleasure of being able to sign them up in my office. I also want to know if you have access to the municipal lists. I'm thinking about the province of Ontario, where there was a municipal election in November 2003, I think, and where I want to know if there are lists.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: With respect to anyone who has moved recently, there really are two answers. Number one, if you change your driver's licence, I will get it. Number two, there may be a delay in this, or a time factor. So if the election were to be held between now and the end of June, a person is almost better to wait until we do targeted revisions, and for the process to start. If the election is held in the fall, then we will most probably pick it up through the automatic address change.

But I want to be clear, people always have the choice of writing in to us and telling us.

What we will do with that data is to accumulate it by riding, and when the writs are dropped, we will ship an electors list—which is computerized—to the returning officer, and ship those changes that have come in since the last time we did automated updates. They will feed those into their computers as if they were revisions, so that we don't alter our systems unnecessarily.

So those are the options.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: So if anyone were really concerned, they could write in to you.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: If they were very concerned about that, yes, they could.

But I will mention one further thing to you, which I'm sure you picked up in my comments. You said that there were new areas; so should you be a candidate in the next general election, when you do meet the returning officer when there are sessions, please ensure that those areas are in the targeted list. And if not, we will put them on. That's what the purpose is of those meetings.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Well, I am confident that my returning officer is aware of the areas that have grown. I think she shudders every time she thinks about them.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Very good.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Then finally, I would like to ask you about the 24 field liaison officers across the country you talked about, who were going to provide functional leadership. I want to know how these people were hired. Was this a posted competition? Are these people currently employed by Elections Canada, or did you go out and recruit them?

The Chair: This should be a short reply, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: These persons—22 of them—are former returning officers, or people who were in returning officer positions. We selected them as a result of a bid process, and they're on a contract with us to help out with the returning offices. Two others came from provincial jurisdictions, but they are knowledgeable about what goes on in an office of a returning officer.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: But was this a public selection or public bid? Could people apply?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes, it was put out under a contracting bid.

The Chair: I have Réal Ménard, Carolyn Parrish, Lorne Nystrom, Marcel Proulx, Ted White, and Claude Duplain, in that order.

[Translation]

It's your turn now, Réal.

Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): These are my four questions.

Can you remind us how the Quebec portion of the register is updated? I think you used the list provided by the Quebec Department of Revenue. I would like you to tell us which list is used to update the Quebec part of the national register.

Also, the caucus has discussed a concern that was brought to the attention of some stakeholders. Continual voting will be taking place in the office of the returning officer for each riding. Electors will be able to vote as soon as voting begins, but the candidates will not be represented.

We were told that certain irregularities might occur. For example, a colleague said that in the office of the returning officer, the name of a candidate was posted inside the booth. This is not necessarily an indication of dishonesty, but does it not seem rather strange in this continuous voting process, that should indeed be encouraged since it ensures a higher voter turnout? Why are the political parties not represented?

Those are my first two questions, and I have two more.

Á (1145)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: To answer your first question on the National Register of Electors, the Quebec part of the register is for all intents and purposes identical to the Quebec provincial list. Our data come from the office of the Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec. In other words, he forwards his entire list to us.

The file that is sent to us by the Federal Revenue Agency is used for our updates and we register the names of new citizens through information from the Citizenship Office. The Quebec Chief Electoral Officer probably receives the same data, at least the information that applies to new citizens. Therefore, practically speaking, both registers are more or less the same. That takes care of the register.

Your second question deals with voting in the office of the returning officer according to provisions in the current act, provisions that have existed for some time. Nowhere in the act did it say nor does it now say that candidates' representatives can be there while this is taking place. However, there are controls to prevent any interference from taking place.

You mentioned a voting booth, but they are only used on the day of the election. If the name of a candidate is posted somewhere in the returning officer's office, that is not allowed and I would like to be told about it immediately so that we can take the appropriate action.

Mr. Réal Ménard: You say there is no voting booth. Are we talking about the same thing? We were told that it was possible to vote at the office of the returning officer as soon as the writ is dropped.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes.

Mr. Réal Ménard: We are not talking about registration.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: No, we are talking about voting.

Mr. Réal Ménard: So there is a voting booth.

Á (1150)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I don't understand what you mean. There is indeed a place where a person can go to vote. If the name of a candidate is posted there, that is unacceptable.

Mr. Réal Ménard: I know that it isn't your fault, and perhaps this is something that the committee can study at some later time, but I would like to know why political parties are not represented?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Because the act does not provide for that.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Okay.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Moreover, we would have to have representatives of each party sitting in the returning officer's office during the entire 36-day election period. We have to keep that in mind.

Mr. Réal Ménard: We do have to keep that in mind, but at the same time, you are taking pains, and rightly so, to ensure that this process will be used. People have to get out and vote. Our entire democracy is based on the participation of its citizens. That is the only thing that makes us all equals in our society. There are things that should be taken into account in the hiring process for an election, but I understand that political parties will have to grapple with the concept before it can be translated into law.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Perfect.

Mr. Réal Ménard: I have a third question for you. There is something I am not comfortable with. As you know, I have great faith in our democratic system and our electoral system, but I am concerned about the decline in voter turnout, just as you are. Regardless of our party affiliations, we all have to recognize that we have achieved a great deal with regard to financing and democratization of political parties. Perhaps our next legislative duty should be an attempt to eliminate one remaining negative aspect of our legislative environment—having returning officers appointed by order in council. During both elections, my former Liberal opponent was the returning officer for my riding. This takes nothing away from him, since people are what they are. However, should we not be moving towards ensuring that the electoral process is a genuinely and completely neutral public competition, just like the selection process for hiring in the public service? Doesn't the fact that returning officers in some ridings are former political opponents cast a shadow on our democratic process?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Is that your third question?

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Kingsley, this should be a very short reply.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Mr. Chairman, I have already spoken about the appointment of retuning officers. Naturally, under the current legislation, a returning officer must by law be neutral, and be seen to behave that way. That is why we have established procedures to ensure such neutrality. However, we cannot change perceptions without amending the current process. This is why—as well as for other reasons relating to candidate ability— in the past I have recommended competitions be held under the aegis of the Chief Electoral Officer. I see no reason to alter that recommendation now.

Mr. Réal Ménard: I hope that your call is heard. Will there be a second round?

The Chair: Yes, later.

[English]

It's Carolyn Parrish, Lorne Nystrom, Marcel Proulx, Ted White, Claude Duplain.

Carolyn.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.): I would first of all like to compliment Jean-Pierre Kingsley on his department. With the new regulation that regulates spending limits on nominations, I had quite a few questions because my party didn't have any answers. So I called your office here in Ottawa about four or five times, and each time was put through to exactly the right person to answer my questions.

Given the fact that I sit on this committee, I could not plead ignorance if I went over the limit at any point, even though it was sorely tempting, I'll tell you. I think that has to be looked at. I'm going on record right now. That spending limit is ludicrous. There are no teeth in it. I don't even know what the penalties are. I talked to one contestant, who shall remain unnamed, whose campaign says that nothing ever happens to people who overspend, and they were hitting $80,000 at that point. The limits around Mississauga were about $13,000.

It's also very difficult when the spending limit in our riding was $13,000 and we almost had 9,000 members. It was very difficult to even do two mailings. We had to cluster our mail in envelopes by street and deliver them by hand because we were going over the limits. Then you have another riding that has only 300 people in it and they have the $13,000 limit. It makes no sense at all.

If you're not issuing tax receipts, then how do you monitor how much money went into a campaign and how much goes out? It's all on the honour system, which I'm learning in my short life in politics doesn't always work.

And as I say, I can't stress enough how terrific your department was. I had some very serious problems and concerns. They were answered immediately, no equivocation.

Also, I, for the first time, as a Liberal on this side of the table, would like to endorse Mr. Ménard's comment, that all returning officers should be appointed by you. They should be vetted carefully. They should be professional.

An hon. member: Hear, hear!

Ms. Carolyn Parrish: Yes, I have very great difficulty with this.

There will be a letter going to you shortly, if it's not there already, concerning this very issue. It's very open to abuse. It's unprofessional. At the very least, Mr. Martin has said there will be no more political appointments without qualifications. I think this is just the next step to that.

The Chair: Carolyn, time is ticking--that's one. Welcome back--that's two. And three: you missed our round table on that topic.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: All right, I'm going. Yes, you missed me. All right. I was busy winning a nomination.

As far as the youth are concerned--

An hon. member: Make a motion, Carolyn.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Make a motion.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: I will. I'll give a notice of motion.

I think it's very important for you to spend as much as you have to spend on them. My studies have shown that if they don't vote the first time they're qualified to vote, then they don't vote for the rest of their lives. So whatever you spend there is incredibly good.

Finally, you say that if someone changes their driver's licence, you automatically get a change of address. When you go through these nomination processes, lots of people change their driver's licences so they can vote in a particular nomination, and then they go back and change them again. Do you track those? Changing a driver's licence is a very easy thing to do.

The Chair: Mr. Kingsley, you have about a minute.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Through you, Mr. Chairman, with respect to tracking what I would call “false address changes”, no, I don't track those. The thought never occurred to me. Thank you for mentioning it. It's one matter more that we can deal with using computers that we would never be able to do without computers.

With respect to spending limits on nomination contests, there are penalties in the law. People do have to produce reports. They have to be audited. We will be reviewing them. They will be posted on our website. All complaints will be investigated and referred to the commissioner for investigation and prosecution.

There is an obligation under the law for any contribution to be reported as well to those campaigns. It is against the law not to report them.

In terms of the law, the penalties are severe. It's a fine up to $5,000, if I remember correctly, or $1,000 on this particular issue, and the possibility, even though this is never invoked by the courts, of some jail term. I don't want to put the emphasis on that. The emphasis should be on the former. I suspect the other one would only come into play when there would be significant problems across the land when a judge would decide one needs to make an exception.

Those are the answers.

Á (1155)

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: How about the ability to run again?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I'm sorry...?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: If you're convicted of fraud in this case, or election misdemeanour, are you barred from running for public office? Is that one of the penalties?

Ms. Diane Davidson (Deputy Chief Electoral Officer and Chief Legal Counsel, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): I don't believe that exceeding the spending limit amounts to an illegal or corrupt practice that is listed in the act.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: In other words, a fine of $1,000--if you spend $80,000 on your campaign--is just the cost of doing business.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That's a matter to be reviewed by the committee, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: It had better be.

The Chair: I do understand that.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: I look forward to it.

The Chair: It's Lorne, then Marcel, then Ted, then Claude, and then Réal again.

Lorne.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): I really want to welcome Carolyn back. I look forward to her motions, and I'm sure you do too, Mr. Chairman.

I wanted to ask the Chief Electoral Officer--welcome back, as well--about the permanent national registry of the voters list. I represent the inner city of Regina and I have 12 Indian reserves in a rural area, and I do have people expressing some concern that it doesn't work as well as the enumeration in those particular areas.

I note with interest your statistics that 92% were found on the enumeration and 95% now, and that's across the board. Are there problems in particular areas? Is it better in every particular area? The feedback I'm getting is that it might be a problem in the inner cities because people move so much, and when you have door-to-door enumeration they might be reminded a lot quicker to get on the voters list.

Literally, I've talked to the police and the police say some people might move eight, nine, ten times a year. Is that a problem? And then the other one is Indian reserves in terms of their particular circumstances.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Mr. Chairman, the numbers I gave are obviously across the board, and when I say that the returning officers will provide each of you with a quality statement, it will be for your riding--each of the candidates, I should say--for those of you who are going to be candidates.

When I say that you will be consulted on where we will do targeted revision, targeted revision is the same as enumeration, and two people go door to door. So if you identify those areas of high mobility, because high mobility is a problem.... And you've identified two kinds of problems that are peculiar and particular.

In the inner city core, yes, people move more often. Please identify those buildings where that occurs. We will do targeted revision in those buildings--enumeration, the same as enumeration--in those buildings.

Reserves are also a particular problem for all the historical reasons that we know in this country, and we're developing special measures for aboriginal Canadians for the next election, which I could explain in some detail. But they are a problem, and we're not getting them to register at all, one way or the other, whether it's targeted revision or whatever. Sometimes it's even having trouble getting polls on reserves. The reserves will not allow us to do it and therefore we do not do it, because that is their right, and that's a problem.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: The American firm Lougheed Martin will be doing a census a little bit later on in this country. How will that plug in to your revision of lists? Will you be taking a list from the census data?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: The privacy statute and the Statistics Act do not allow for the sharing of any information with me from that list--none.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Deputy Chair--good to see you there.

My question is really a follow-up on Carolyn Parrish's on Bill C-24, the new election expenses act. Are you having any problems in terms of how it's working at the riding level? Ridings now can raise money and issue tax receipts. Some local riding folks have expressed some initial frustration, and questions and so on, which is normal and natural, but do you see any problems with it on an ongoing basis?

Â (1200)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I haven't seen any problems and none have been reported to me, as such, from anybody in the parties and from the main parties. We've had registrations of local riding associations across the board. I'm not saying all of them have registered for all the parties, but it's going on at a very significant clip. I have not heard of any problems. And in terms of my ability to meet the statute, as I think you've heard from Mrs. Parrish, we've worked with the parties. My people have been able to produce miracles. I'm very proud of them. We have met everything that was required under that statute.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: I noticed a while ago you made a statement on the wisdom of mandatory voting. I wonder if you can say a bit more about that this morning. If we did look at the issue of mandatory voting, what do we look at in terms of enticing people to vote? Are you looking at the Australian model? Are you looking at certain sticks and carrots? I wonder if you can enlighten us with your wisdom.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I've indicated--and it was to somebody in this room, as a matter of fact, during an interview--that I was musing about this only, but then that took a spin of its own.

What I did want to make very clear is that I've never advocated this for Canada. I have said that I think we can overcome the fall in the participation rates through encouragement of Canadians, and I have not considered at all, in any way, shape, or form, how one would implement, for that reason, compulsory attendance at the polls.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: In principle, do you think it would be a good idea?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I haven't changed my mind on that. No, I don't think it would be a good idea for Canada.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Why has the Australian system not been a good idea for us?

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, CPC)): A short answer, Mr. Kingsley. We're just about out of time.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: I'd like just a comment on whether or not you think the Australian system should be looked at by our committee, and what you think of the idea of lowering the voting age to 16.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I think the latter has more merit than the former. Decreasing the voting age to 16 does have some benefits--not only benefits, but one of the things we're trying to do through the kids vote exercise is that before people leave high school they have an opportunity to participate in something meaningful. Certainly lowering the age to 16 would achieve that for most Canadians. So I see merit in considering that. May I please be quoted accurately: I see merit in considering that.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Ms. Davidson is smiling.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): She's a happy person, Mr. Nystrom.

Marcel Proulx.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Good morning, ladies, and good morning Mr. Kingsley. Thank you for being here this morning.

Under Bill C-24, what means are available for you to audit or investigate the financing of candidates for nomination? Ms. Parrish gave you an example. I could talk about Frontenac—Mégantic or Lotbinière—L'Érable, but let's just say that there is a perception someone has spent huge amounts of money on posters, signs and so on. Do you simply do an accounting audit—there is nothing pejorative in that—or are there people taking notes in the field? I understand that we can't have a watchdog in each of Canada's 308 ridings, but I would like to know how you audit or investigate spending.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Candidates must report the amounts they receive, as well as their spending. The report must be signed by a professional auditor once spending exceeds a certain amount. If a candidate exceeds the limit, he or she has certainly exceeded the threshold. The report is posted on the Elections Canada website. The public, opponents and even others from the same party...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: You rely on informers.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Mostly, and that has always worked well.

The media also provide information for us as well, but when information appears in the media, generally a Canadian appears with information. When people write to us, I refer them to the Commissioner of Canada Elections, who initiates an investigation and then decides whether to prosecute.

Â (1205)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you. I have other questions for you.

You state that the salaries of your indeterminate employees totaled $13.2 million. You also hire contract employees. I presume that the process is in compliance with Treasury Board guidelines.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: An audit has been conducted. With respect to contracting, Elections Canada compares very well with any other office or agent of Parliament, including the Office of the Auditor General.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I see. On the bottom of page 2 of your opening remarks, you mentioned $6 million for the annual allowances to qualifying political parties. Are those the allocations provided for under Bill C-24?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That's right: $1.75 per vote.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: You sent 300,000 registration kits to young people, of whom 41,000 responded. That leaves 259,000. You said that as soon as an election is called you will send out another mailing. Don't you think that you should do something before an election is called to make them more aware?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We have in fact sent out two or three mailings.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So you did not just send them the registration kit.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We have sent them registration kits, but we had also conducted all sorts of campaigns previously. I'm happy to hear you raise this question. There is just one thing I would like to add. After a general election, which will certainly have to take place at some point, I would like to sit down with the committee and review the issue of adding young Canadians to the register.

I think we are doing young Canadians a disservice by requiring proof of citizenship before adding them to the register. I would like to review this issue with the committee. Young people are not among the citizens on the list, and we want to include them. But before we do that, I need a certificate of Canadian citizenship. We impose those requirements on the very group which is the most difficult to incorporate into the election process.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Could a birth certificate serve as proof of Canadian citizenship?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: By someone who claims to be a Canadian citizen.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I see.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: But it is still a very complex issue.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: On page 10, you state that this information will be posted and that electors will be able to view the maps by calling toll-free or visiting your website. Does all this information include voter lists, Mr. Kingsley?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Absolutely not. We should say that almost all the information will be posted.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I see. You didn't specify that, so I was a little worried.

You talked about systems intended for riding associations, registered parties and candidates, indicating that they have been available since late February. Does that mean just that they are available or that you provide them? There is a difference.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We provide them upon request, of course.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: On page 14, you state that in 2004-2005 you will continue to “register the various political entities covered by the rules introduced by Bill C-24, notably electoral district associations.” In the French version, on page 16, you add “en autant qu'elles le veulent”, which means “if they wish it”.

Under Bill C-24, do riding associations not need to be registered?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I am glad those words were added. This must be a voluntary act by the local riding association.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What happens if the association decides not to register?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: It is excluded from the system in terms of support for the candidacy during the election period. In addition, under the Elections Act, it cannot receive contributions, and it cannot receive a surplus.

Mr. Réal Ménard: It cannot receive tax receipts either.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: And no tax receipts.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It can't have a surplus, meaning the refund for...

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. White.

Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I have a question that should only require a short answer regarding the website. You said in one part of your presentation, Mr. Kingsley, that software was available on the website. Did I hear that correctly? You read out here the phrase “the software for electoral district associations, registered parties and leadership nomination contestant...”, and so on. That's available there?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes, it is, sir.

Mr. Ted White: I was looking on the website yesterday, looking at some of the manuals that can be downloaded and other stuff. I didn't actually see much in the way of software, so I'd like to make a suggestion regarding your website. It looks to me almost as if you couldn't find a place to put all these downloads and sheets, so it comes under “third parties and other entities”. You have to find it under the button at the top of the website. How about the idea of having a download button on that front page?

As they do on most websites, it says “downloads”, and that links you to all the places where you can get manuals and software. There's a nice long alphabetical list there. At the moment, you have to go all over the place to find the stuff.

Â (1210)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That's an excellent suggestion, sir.

Mr. Ted White: I only make that suggestion.

On the questions regarding the rest of your presentation here today, what has been the impact on your staff costs and the numbers of your staff due to Bill C-24? How many additional people have you employed, and how much did your salary bill increase as a result of that?

Ms. Janice Vézina: We had estimated 35 additional full-time equivalents to implement and administer the ongoing requirements of Bill C-24. We put together a Treasury Board submission, as is required, in terms of our indeterminate staff. It's vote 25 that you're considering today.

We received approval at the end of January for the salaries of those 35 indeterminate people. It totalled $2.4 million in salaries.

Mr. Ted White: That's not in the figures.

Ms. Janice Vézina: No. It was an item that came after the main estimates were submitted. We had put some salary dollars for Bill C-24 on the statutory side because, one way or the other, we have to implement it. Now it will be moving basically from one pocket to another. In terms of your vote 25, they were not included in main estimates.

Mr. Ted White: That leads to another question about all the other kitchen items that were mentioned earlier. Do you need additional office space, photocopiers, desks, and all of that other stuff? How much is that going to add in this coming year? Have you applied for additional money for that?

Ms. Janice Vézina: The funding arrangement that Treasury Board has in place is that there's an automatic amount that goes with each full-time equivalent for accommodation. That money then is funded through to the Department of Public Works, which provides the accommodation. So there is a linkage there with the number of full-time equivalents.

Mr. Ted White: Are you going to have to move offices or obtain additional space in the building where you are located now or additional space outside to accommodate the additional staff members?

Ms. Janice Vézina: We have enough space where we are, and also, we have an additional location that we had acquired--again through the Department of Public Works--on Lancaster Road to accommodate election growth.

Mr. Ted White: Okay. Now, I'm still on the impact of Bill C-24 on your budget and your expansion.

On the registration of electoral district associations, initially the Conservative Party, or the Canadian Alliance as it was then, had taken the position that we would not register our associations and that it would all be reported through the national office. But now we've been told to register--my riding association; the electoral district association has already registered. So that process is going on.

I just wonder whether all the parties are registering and how much workload you're getting, and whether the 35 people, I think you said, are going to be enough. Do you anticipate running out of money or running out of space or needing more staff as a result of what you are now seeing happening as the parties register?

Ms. Janice Vézina: Not from what we've seen so far. Our estimates are holding firm.

Mr. Ted White: That's very good.

I was surprised by the similarity of your spending estimates between the previous year and this year. On the preparation for elections aspect--which I can't find quickly because I only have a minute left and he has me panicked--the similarity in spending from year to year, even though perhaps this year will be an election year, is the similarity because you were doing redistribution last year and the costs all tend to balance out from one year to the next, or do you end up making an estimate in case there's an election, and returning money or never drawing on that money from the treasury if there's not?

Ms. Janice Vézina: Our main estimates were quite similar, as you've mentioned, but in this fiscal year, 2003-04, we submitted supplementary estimates. The actuals will be greater than the main estimates. So yes, 2003-04, from a dollar perspective, was higher than what we would anticipate next year.

These main estimates for next year do not include cost of the election. We don't forecast that there will be an election, in terms of our main estimates.

Â (1215)

Mr. Ted White: So it has more to do with being ready for the election.

If I can just squeak in the question, how much do you anticipate an election would cost if it's held this year?

Ms. Janice Vézina: In this next year? Our estimate right now, because we're still refining it, is between $250 million and $265 million, and we're still working on crunching that to a finer range.

Mr. Ted White: Fine, thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Okay, thank you.

Mr. Ted White: Don't use any ad agencies that take off more than you expect.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): One must be very prudent.

We have Claude Duplain, and then Réal Ménard.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Duplain (Portneuf, Lib.): Mr. Kingsley, thank your for being here.

I have a few quick questions for you. I think that overall, everyone says you do a very good job, and I agree. There are a few procedures that you weren't necessarily responsible for, and that's mostly where the bad comments come in. It has to do with redistribution. But before I talk about redistribution, I'd like to raise something else.

You mentioned that you were still looking for a few more returning officers. How many? When do you expect to have that selection made? There are rumours that an election may be called very soon.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: According to my figures, at one point, 307 out of 308 returning officers had been appointed. Seven of them resigned, leaving us with 300. So there are eight vacant returning officer positions. I expect cabinet to appoint a certain number of returning officers today. Don't forget that I have nothing to do with the selection and appointment of these people. So I only have part of the answer today. I have the feeling that perhaps one, two or three vacancies will remain and that there's nothing unusual about those appointments coming later. People are generally unaware that for every election, there are returning officers appointed one week before election day, because there are people who quit for health reasons and others who die. There's no way of controlling that.

Mr. Claude Duplain: If they're appointed at the last minute, do you have a process to train them very quickly?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I mentioned earlier that we had trained the assistant returning officers. You can see right away that this supports the returning officer in each riding. However, there are two ridings where this is not the case, one represented by Mr. Marcel Proulx and another in Nunavut. If the appointments were done late in the game, before an election, those people would be very quickly trained in my office. We would also dispatch Elections Canada staff to help them during the polling, as the need arose.

Mr. Claude Duplain: So it's not really a problem for the time being. There's nothing to worry about.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: It's not an insurmountable problem.

Mr. Claude Duplain: Secondly, I'd like to know how much the whole redistribution saga cost.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Pretty close to $10 million.

Mr. Claude Duplain: You referred to schedule 3. Ridings listed on this schedule are eligible for more money. That's not up to you, but it is up to you to list them on schedule 3 or not.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes.

Mr. Claude Duplain: All right. This week, we received some information. There is a basic minimum for each region, and we are talking about extra money according to the size and population of the region. When you talk about extra money being available, is that something other than what was received this week?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: The extra money that you receive for the administration of the regional offices, in the ridings, has nothing to do with me; it has to do with schedule 3, in part, as far as I understand your procedures in the House of Commons. But that's separate. However, the amounts you received for the administration of local offices can be increased, because I included your riding in schedule 3.

Â (1220)

Mr. Claude Duplain: There are still other extra amounts...

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I don't know and I don't care to venture an answer to that question. I have to admit that I can't follow all of the intricacies.

Mr. Claude Duplain: But you do know how much we get. There is a base amount for each riding, and then, if your population is over a certain threshold, there's an extra amount, according to population and distance criteria. The schedule is over and above all that. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm trying to reconcile things.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I'm not aware of the interplay between the schedule and all the other factors that you just mentioned. You would have to ask people from the House of Commons. I am only concerned with schedule 3 in that for ridings to which this provision of the act applies, only 50 voters' signatures are required on the nomination papers.

Mr. Claude Duplain: That's the only thing that concerns you.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That's the only reason why I take it upon myself to do that.

Mr. Claude Duplain: In schedule 3 ridings, you only need 50 signatures instead of 100, full stop. You're not concerned with anything else.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Legally, that's my only objective and my only obligation.

Mr. Claude Duplain: All right. That's different. I should have asked my question another way.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: It's hard to understand. So, I agree with you.

Mr. Claude Duplain: For you, that has nothing to do with the budget.

How do you decide whether 50 or 100 signatures are required in a riding? What is your concern in that regard?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: For us, it's an estimate, according to the criteria set out in the act, of the difficulty of obtaining 100 signatures instead of 50 in a riding. Voters have a harder time reaching the signing destination in some places. We take into account how big the riding is, how hard it is to travel within the riding and how the population is dispersed within the riding.

Mr. Claude Duplain: You expressed your concerns about Bill C-3, in terms of the broader responsibilities of the Chief Electoral Officer when it comes to the objectives of political parties, among other things. Does this legislation lead you to anticipate additional amounts because it will require you to deal with a lot of special requests or special audits? Is there something in the budget for that?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: There's nothing in the budget for that. I would have to look into it before putting a number on it, but I don't think it would be a huge amount.

Mr. Claude Duplain: Okay, thank you.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Thank you, Monsieur Duplain.

Monsieur Ménard, and then the chair, and then we'll go to a second round for those who wish.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard: I'd like to talk about voter turnout, the risk of fraud and young people. Federally, if I'm not mistaken, even if you aren't on the list, you can show up at a polling station on election day and register if you have identification. Is that right?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: You have to have identification bearing the voter's signature, name and address, or two pieces of identification bearing those three items.

Mr. Réal Ménard: That's different from Quebec, where that's not possible.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: In Quebec, that's not possible.

Mr. Réal Ménard: You are doing that to try to increase voter turnout.

I find one of your initiatives very impressive. While I do not want to reveal a caucus secret, I can tell you that last Wednesday we discussed your visits to schools to prepare young people to vote and to have them hold a simulated election. We also discussed your invitation to members of Parliament to take part in these visits.

I am trying to understand the low voter turnout in sociological terms. Has Elections Canada done any studies to determine why voter turnout has dropped by close to 10 per cent in a decade? Unless I am mistaken, voter turnout dropped 9 per cent nationally between the time I was first elected, in 1993, and the year 2000. Have you commissioned any sociological studies to try to find out why people are not voting?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes, we have had some studies done by two eminent professors, Jon H. Pammett of Carleton University and Lawrence LeDuc from the University of Toronto. They tried to find out why people had not voted. They also helped establish that it is mainly young people who are not voting. We should remember that this phenomenon does not occur in all the generations, but chiefly among young people between 18 and 24 years of age. Their voter turnout rate is 25 per cent. They are the people who are not voting in record numbers. We were able to determine that.

The researchers looked at the reasons for this. I am trying to remember the four main reasons mentioned. The first factor, the most important one, is that young people have little knowledge or interest in politics, in public affairs, and this clearly has a spillover effect.

I cannot recall the second factor, and the third factor...

Â (1225)

Mr. Réal Ménard: Perhaps you could send me a copy of these two studies.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes. The full study is available on our website. One of the factors was the administrative hassles and problems involved.

Mr. Réal Ménard: That leads me to my second question. Actually, I would like to ask two more questions. Do you think there is a correlation between the poverty index and voter turnout? For example, believe it or not, in my riding, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, the turnout rate is 49 per cent in the most disadvantaged part of the riding. In the most well-off part of my riding, the voter turnout rate is 60 per cent. I have to work hard to get my vote out in Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. I know that is not one of your concerns. Is there a correlation between poverty and the voter turnout rate?

In addition, I would like more details about young people. You spoke about getting them involved in the system and you said that if we were to require some proof of identity, things could become complicated. I would point out that in some situations, financial institutions have made similar comments. I would like you to give us more information about this please.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: As far as the registration of young voters go, I would mention that my comments applied chiefly at the national level. The Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec registers young people, and this is done in a much more automatic way than at the federal level. I would like us to have something similar at the national level. The phenomenon I was mentioning does not occur in Quebec, at least not to the same extent as in the rest of the country.

I think we answered the question about registration on voting day. What was the other one?

Mr. Réal Ménard: The poverty index and... [Editor's Note: Inaudible].

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: All the studies that I've seen show that education levels and poverty levels have an impact on voter turnout. All the studies show a correlation. The fact that the people who do not vote are the very ones who would have the most to gain by voting is one of the great paradoxes of political life.

Mr. Réal Ménard: So if we were to superimpose the poverty map and voter turnout map of Canada, we would find that the most disadvantaged communities have lower voter turnouts than the well-off communities.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: As I just said, that is in fact what would be found if a detailed study were done.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Thank you, Monsieur Ménard.

The chair will weigh in heavily with his new-found authority just to get in a couple of questions, if I could.

Thank you again, of course, for coming.

One of the questions I had was on the software that's been available for candidates as of February. Are candidates going to be able to file electronically, or is it still going to be the paper mess?

Ms. Janice Vézina: They will have to print their return, sign the declaration, and send it to us.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Years ago, even in my first election in 1993, my official agent said, “You know, I have to file a complicated income tax form where I track the receipts and the records, but if I could file it electronically, life would be so much easier.” There's the amount of paperwork. If all you do is just print off the form and have to fill out the form, it's no better or quicker than what we had ten years ago.

Ms. Janice Vézina: The other issue is that the package really needs to be shipped together along with the auditor's report and the checklist the auditor completes, as well as with vouchers supporting the documentation. So there's a package of physical documents we need to receive in any event. Unlike income tax, it's....

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): I just throw that out there. It just seemed to me that it's increasingly difficult to get anybody to serve as official agent because it's like a licence from hell.

I understand the need for receipts. I just wondered, if the income tax department accepts things unless proven otherwise or if it needs to be verified or whatever else, for an accountant who does everything electronically--nowadays everything is electronic--and to suddenly say, okay, we're going to change it now to a paper trail, they're almost ill-prepared for it. You give them a stack of forms and they look at you as if you're from the dark ages. It's just not done for any other thing. I don't know of anything else except this.

Â (1230)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: What Janice has indicated to me, Mr. Chairman, is that it is a legal requirement under the statute.

What I would like to propose is that when we come back to you after the election to propose changes, we will broach this with you and see about electronic signatures, which is what abides under the income tax system, and perhaps about providing other documentation on a separate track.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Perhaps that's the time to do it, but it does seem to me we may be at that stage.

The other thing already raised was about those ridings that were in schedule 3. Mr. Reynolds raised the prospect that his riding was one, and mine is another. I have an argument I would like to present. Would you like those people who are on that list to send you a letter now? You say it can be done in the first week once the writ is dropped. Would you accept submissions at this time?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I would much prefer submissions at this time so I can give them consideration, and then when the writs are dropped the decision will be easy to make. I will have received the concerns of everyone who's interested. As soon as possible is better than later.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): I'll pass that along to those ridings that are affected.

Finally, just anecdotally, I was at Carleton University yesterday speaking to a journalism class. One of the people there who had participated in the kid vote in Ontario last time just raved about it, just thought it was wonderful, but she was a serious student of journalism, probably a Tim Naumetz wannabe.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): That's my guess, and maybe she was.

Anyway, what she said was that for those who were into it, she really thought it was a great exercise. Others said it was just a kind of popularity contest: you voted for the hottest guy or girl in the school. Anecdotally, she thought it was a good exercise and it made people think serious thoughts about electioneering, and she had nothing but good to say about it. I pass that along, for what it's worth.

It's the second round here. Monsieur Proulx.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We are moving along quickly. I would like to come back very briefly to the issue of 50 signatures, rather than 100 signatures. This is 2004. In my opinion, while not a simplistic change, it would be quite a simple change to require 50 or 100 signatures. I would like to know how much you pay for the studies to determine which ridings will be part of schedule 3.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: The studies cost mere peanuts. These data already exist. All I do is have them corrected. I already have this information and I have it corrected and have my questions answered on that basis.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Fine. We're talking here about budgets. What is the operating reserve you have set aside in your figures, Ms. Vézina?

[English]

Ms. Janice Vézina: There's no reserve.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Very well.

Mr. Kingsley, people in both our party and in other parties have said that our famous nomination meetings should or could be run by Elections Canada. You said that that was not your responsibility. I have no problem with that. If it were your responsibility, how much might this cost Elections Canada?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I would have to look into that, and I have not done so. If the committee is interested, I will prepare some estimates.

Â (1235)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I would like to come back to the point raised by Mr. Ménard and others regarding the drop in voter turnout. You are the expert in all aspects of the electoral process in Canada for the various regions of the country. Your job is very different from that of the Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec, for example, who looks after Quebec only. He has to take into account only one way of thinking, whereas you have to deal with all of the regions of Canada.

Have you focused on this problem beyond the studies available on your site, and do you have any solutions for improving voter turnout?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Studies show that 95 per cent of the problem occurs among new, young voters. We are not talking about people leaving the electoral process, but rather about people who never enter it. We have therefore targeted this group with our resources. We have a whole range of projects, some of which I have mentioned here.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Excuse me, I would like to interrupt, if I may. When we talk about the voter turnout, Mr. Kingsley, we are comparing the number of people who actually vote with the number of people who are registered to vote. When you talk about young people, people whose names are newly registered on the voter list, that is an additional factor. We see a continual drop in the turnout of people registered on our current voters' lists.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I'm trying to tell you that studies show not the opposite, but that the fact of the matter is different. The fact is that young people account for most of the drop in voter turnout, which went from approximately 75 per cent in the 1970s and 1980s, to 64.1 or 64.2 per cent now. This 10 or 11 per cent drop is attributable to the fact that young people are not voting—that only one in four of them votes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Young people who are already registered.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Young people in general. Our studies were not limited to those whose names were on the lists. The studies focused on young people in general and why they did not vote. Surveys were done to determine whether these young people voted or not. It is in relation to that.

We will be able to provide figures for the next election based on our analyses. We will be able to trace back the active voting in relation to our lists. That is what I intend to do in order to have even more precise data on this phenomenon.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Thank you, Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Nystrom, then Judi Longfield, and Monsieur St-Julien.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: I have a small technical question, which I don't know how you will answer. The Yukon you have here as 482,000 square kilometres, but last time it was 465,000 square kilometres. How did the Yukon grow by 17,000 square kilometres? I wasn't aware of any change in the boundaries of the territory.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: No. There was a slight change in the database that was provided to us, because we don't come out with these numbers. We're not experts on the geography of the land.

I will come back to you with a written reply, but I forget which agency of government provides that to us. It may be Natural Resources Canada, but it may also be Statistics Canada, so I want to come back with a more precise answer for you.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Yes, people out there might be interested in that, as it's a one-riding territory.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Either that, or the water level has fallen off significantly.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Well, I thought that maybe you'd heard something I hadn't heard.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): It's a chance for us to regain our position as the biggest country in the world.

Judi Longfield.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I have a couple of questions. First, just with respect to Elections Canada taking over the job of returning officers at nomination meetings, I've been involved at the party level for over 25 years, and I would suggest that the problem doesn't exist with the quality of the person conducting the meeting, but with the quality of the lists the person has to administer the program with. So I guess I'm just saying to my colleagues, maybe we need to clean up internally the lists at all levels, and the chairing and returning officer function will take care of itself.

The other question is in terms of returning officers. Could you provide what you would consider to be the qualifications necessary to be a returning officer? And who appoints the assistant returning officer and the automation coordinator? If the function of actually vetting and determining the qualifications of a returning officer were under the auspices of the Chief Electoral Officer, would you also feel that the assistant returning officer and the automation coordinator, which are two pretty important backups to the returning officer, should also be appointed by the returning officer?

Â (1240)

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: In terms of the skill sets, I can provide those quite easily. I'm sure we have them written up already, so I'll respond to you presently—to use that word correctly in English.

With respect to the assistant returning officer, under the present statute, that is strictly the appointment authority of the returning officer. It is the same with respect to the automation coordinator.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Do you provide any guidelines to the returning officers currently as to what would constitute an appropriate level of qualifications for them, aside from being a good friend or being someone they could work with?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Oh, yes, we do, and being a good friend is not one of them.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Yes, I appreciate that.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: As a matter of fact, I prefer that they not be good friends.

An hon. member: What about a good Liberal...?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I'm sorry...?

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Furthermore, if you were appointing the returning officers, would it also be your view that you should appoint the assistants and the automation coordinator?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Certainly not the automation coordinator, and I haven't given any thought to the assistant returning officer. It's a thought that has not occurred to me. I would have to think about it before providing a definitive answer, but I would probably prefer not to be involved.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: However, the assistant returning officer is there as backup, and should something happen to the returning officer, then the assistant would be the one who would step in, and could be in the most difficulty, as they have the least experience.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That's why my answer was not as automatic as it was for the automation coordinator. I would have to give it some thought, but I'm indicating to you a preference—an intellectual preference.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I look forward to receiveing the qualifications, and thank you for your visit to our committee.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Are those qualifications on your website, or are you just going to make them available?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: They're not on the website at this time.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Perhaps you could circulate them to everyone on the committee, as it's been a hot topic lately and maybe would be of interest.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Yes, I will be writing to the chair and to the committee members through the chair.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Perfect. Thank you.

Monsieur St-Julien and Mr. Duplain.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have two small questions. The first concerns schedule 3. Is there a written description somewhere setting out the conditions and procedures? Several people have asked us this question.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I will send you a copy of what is stipulated now under the act.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Previously there were two schedules.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That is why we refer to it as schedule 3, but I cannot remember what schedules 1 and 2 were. As far as schedule 3 is concerned, I can give you the criteria that are set out in the act which I apply.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you.

Are the limits for the polling divisions ready for each riding? For my riding I would like to obtain the boundaries for each polling division and the description of each polling station.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: As far as I know, this information will be conveyed to you a week from now, that is on April 1, the date for which I promised it.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Mr. Duplain.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Duplain: In the riding of Portneuf, the returning officer experienced a malaise. He is feeling better now. If, just before an election, a person were to fall ill, would you be able to send someone else to replace him or would the assistant do the job?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Generally speaking, the assistant would become the interim returning officer and would immediately name another assistant. Generally it is someone who is already in the office. That would be the normal way of proceeding. Depending on the requirement, I can send someone from the head office to provide help if it is deemed necessary. The liaison officers that I talked to you about would be able to facilitate this kind of thing. We would have a better understanding of the problems very quickly because the person would be on the spot.

Â (1245)

Mr. Claude Duplain: So there can be a standby if necessary.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: If necessary, yes. That is what we have always done and we will be doing it even better the next time.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Mr. St-Julien has the last question. This is the last, last question.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Mr. Kingsley, the returning officer, at the national level, telephones the political parties to arrange a pre-electoral meeting to examine the changes that have been made and so forth. This is something that comes from you. That strikes me as bizarre and I would like to explain why.

If there is a meeting in Quebec of the Liberal Party and the Bloc Québécois, a month later the other parties will accuse us of not having a meeting. I personally refused to take part in the meeting because I wanted all the political parties to be present.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We will give you another opportunity to hold a meeting, according to the instructions that I will issue to the returning officer. The reason why you are consulted, is that I consider it important to do so. The returning officers act as would naturally be expected. Of course, there are parties that have not yet chosen their candidate and that is why we asked the parties to provide us with the name of a person from the party at the local level. In my view, it is quite legitimate to proceed in this way. You refused. You are perfectly entitled to do so and it will not be held against you.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Mr. Kingsley, if they have a meeting with only the Bloc Québécois, I will certainly be opposed to that. What I am advocating is that this be done during the election period, once all the candidates have been chosen. Let this meeting be held on the day of the deadline at 2:00 p.m., and not before, so it is fair for all the parties.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That is a point of view and I am quite willing to be guided by committee members. If you prefer not to have a meeting with the returning officer before the election is called, I will ask the returning officer to put a stop to this immediately.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): I think that's the end of the list of questions we have for the witnesses today.

I want to thank Mr. Kingsley for coming today, and it's also good to see Diane Davidson back in a new role—not brand new, but it's good to see you back again.

And the same for you, Janice Vézina.

I do want thank you all for coming and bringing your testimony today. Thank you very much.

To the committee, we have a quorum again, so I have to ask the question—if nothing else is coming up—shall the chair report vote 25 of the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, under Privy Council, less the amount voted in interim supply, to the House?

PRIVY COUNCIL

Chief Electoral Officer

^ç	Vote 25--Program expenditures...........$13,186,000

(Vote 25 agreed to)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Chuck Strahl): Seeing that there is no dissenting opinion, the chair will arrange for that.

Thank you very much.

We are adjourned.