ENVI Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, March 8, 2004

¹

1530

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, CPC))

Ms. Janet Milne (Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial and Administrative Services, Department of Social Development)

¹

1535

¹

1540

¹

1545

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, BQ)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)

¹

1550

Ms. Janet Milne

Mr. Roy Bailey

Ms. Janet Milne

Mr. Andrew Treusch (Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Investment Programs, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development)

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Roy Bailey

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Bernard Bigras

¹

1555

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Bernard Bigras

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Christian Dea (Director, Strategic Research and Coordination Studies, Department of Social Development)

º

1600

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—St. Clair, NDP)

Mr. Andrew Treusch

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Andrew Treusch

º

1605

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Joe Comartin

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.)

º

1610

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Julian Reed

º

1615

Mr. Andrew Treusch

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Ms. Janet Milne

º

1620

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Hon. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.)

º

1625

Mr. Andrew Treusch

º

1630

Hon. John Godfrey

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Hon. John Godfrey

Mr. Andrew Treusch

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Hon. Serge Marcil (Beauharnois—Salaberry, Lib.)

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Hon. Serge Marcil

Mr. Christian Dea

º

1635

Hon. Serge Marcil

Mr. Christian Dea

Hon. Serge Marcil

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Hon. Serge Marcil

Mr. Andrew Treusch

º

1640

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Andrew Treusch

º

1645

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Christian Dea

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Joe Comartin

º

1650

Mr. Christian Dea

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Julian Reed

º

1655

Mr. Joe Comartin

Mr. Andrew Treusch

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Andrew Treusch

»

1700

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Andrew Treusch

Mr. Christian Dea

»

1705

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

Mr. Don DeJong (Director General, Human Resources Partnerships Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills)

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development

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NUMBER 005

l

3rd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Monday, March 8, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1530)  

[English]

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, CPC)): I call the meeting to order.

    I'd like to welcome our guests. It's certainly our pleasure to have you testify before the environment committee. I understand that copies of your presentation are on the way. They will be circulated by the clerk as soon as they arrive. Please keep your presentation as brief as possible, and then we will open it up to questions.

[Translation]

    Ms. Janet Milne (Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial and Administrative Services, Department of Social Development): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I do apologize for not having brought copies of the presentation.

[English]

    We will have copies here very shortly. They are in a taxi as we speak, I believe.

[Translation]

    Thank you for having invited us here to discuss this very important topic with you.

    I would like to note that the Prime Minister's statement on December 12 announcing a new federal Cabinet structure has had a significant impact on those who had responsibility for sustainable development in the former Human Resources Development Canada. As you are aware, HRDC was divided and the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, which includes Labour Canada, and the Department of Social Development were created. Corporate services such as finance and human resources are part of Social Development Canada but provide service to both departments. So our unit serves both departments.

[English]

    So in this new context the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development is responsible for enabling lifelong learning, supporting labour market development, strengthening communities, combating homelessness, and committing to investing in human development--that's a key responsibility of the new department.

    The Department of Social Development is responsible for matters that pertain to families, children, seniors, and persons with disabilities, and for improving the delivery of social benefits to Canadians.

    Since the new departments were created in December when a new sustainable development strategy was just due to be tabled, with the concurrence of the Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development we agreed to table the new strategy under the signature of those three ministers.

    However, I should mention that the new departments are committed to contributing to the social, economic, and environmental well-being of Canadians through the joint implementation of this strategy, and we will be taking action to separate the commitments into strategies for each of the two departments.

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[Translation]

    HRDC developed and implemented many programs and services that, by their nature, aim to help Canadians meet their need for income support and skills development without compromising the needs of future generations.

    We worked alone and in collaboration with other federal departments, such as Health Canada and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, to build a better common understanding of ways we can work together effectively on sustainable development challenges of mutual interest. These include children living in poverty, employment of disabled people, the growing problem of homelessness, and the environment and development in the North.

    The new departments will continue to work hard to integrate sustainability into all our daily activities, policies and programs, to support Aboriginal businesses and employment, and to improve the health and safety of workplaces across Canada.

[English]

    Our first strategy, in 1997, primarily focused on the “greening” of the operations dimension of sustainable development, particularly with respect to the internal operations of the department, which were and continue to be extensive, spanning the country in a network of over 320 offices. This continues to be a major priority for the departments.

    In the past, our service delivery has been heavily paper-based, as you probably are aware. We carry out millions of transactions with Canadians each year. Moving a lot of our services to on-line service delivery is a cornerstone of where we see our commitment to greening our operations in sustainable development going in the very near future.

    In the 2001 strategy we made research commitments on two specific targets. The first one was to examine the labour market and social issues associated with the Kyoto accord. The second was to study the concept and profile of green employment.

    In her recent report, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development expressed some concern about our rate of progress toward these objectives. I am pleased to report that both of these studies have now been completed and have been reviewed by academic experts. A draft version of the Kyoto paper was released to the commissioner during the auditing process last spring. The other paper on green employment is also now completed.

    We have brought copies and would be happy to make them available to the committee today. I should mention that one of them has not been translated yet, but it will be very shortly.

    The commissioner also asked that we explain how we intend to use the information we collected. The study shows that implementing the Kyoto accord in Canada will lead to some relatively small, we hope, shifts in the composition of employment. We're not expecting absolute declines in employment. These shifts should lead to relatively minor changes in growth rates, which, as we know, are affected by a large variety of different factors.

    As well, the impact of this adjustment needs to be considered within the broad context of the dynamics of Canada's labour market. First, it will take place over a relatively lengthy period of time as Canada implements and adjusts to the accord. Secondly, the shifts in employment demand toward the more skilled occupations are likely to take place at a time when the workforce is becoming more and more highly skilled, as a result of the ongoing gains in post-secondary education attainment. In other words, the supply of more highly skilled workers is likely to be increasing at the same time as the demand in this area. Thirdly, the adjustments will take place at a time when Canada will be increasingly concerned with finding workers, not finding jobs, because of the growth in the labour market slowing due to the aging population.

    It is important to note that labour markets, of course, are always in a state of flux, with millions of people leaving jobs and millions finding jobs every year. For example, in 1998 and 1999, approximately five million people left jobs and five and a half million people were hired into jobs. The changes that would ensue from implementing Kyoto are likely to be small relative to the magnitude of these overall flows in employment.

    HRSD will certainly continue to monitor the evolution of labour markets to see if the impact of the Kyoto accord can be isolated from the normal flux and the evolution that is coming as the baby boomers retire.

    HRDC, the former department, recognized that it had a special role in relation to the social aspects of sustainable development and that greater emphasis was needed on this particular pillar in the next period, the current period we're looking at now.

    The emphasis of the 2004-2006 strategy includes a much stronger focus on our role beyond greening operations in defining the social and labour market aspects of sustainable development. As we move forward to implement the mandate of the new departments, we have a renewed opportunity to focus on defining the social and labour market dimensions. We will do this in collaboration with our colleagues in other departments who share an interest in this important area.

    In its broadest sense the Brundtland definition of sustainable development could be interpreted to include virtually everything our two departments do to support economic and social development. For this reason, in the updated strategy we have committed to focus particular attention on a few key objectives that we see as being of particular importance to the achievement of the goals articulated in the strategy.

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    The new strategy identifies priority areas that we'll be moving on. There's a list in the strategy document you have that includes things like support and services to children and families, the promotion of learning in the domain of sustainable development, sustainable workplaces, links between aboriginal issues and sustainable development, and the whole area of homelessness and how we address that. We believe these commitments help support an innovative, sustainable economy and sustainable communities.

    In response to other comments from the commissioner, our new strategy is structured around a logic model. The model begins with a long-term vision for sustainable development and then links to more medium-term goals that are then linked to a much more immediate set of objectives and targets.

    The four key goals of our updated strategy are: to strengthen our capacity to move forward on a path to sustainable development; to continue to green our internal operations--we are an ongoing member of the federal House in Order initiative; to develop the social and labour market dimensions of sustainable development; and to build sustainable development into our corporate cultures.

    At this level the goals are rather similar to the previous strategy, and where we see the most change is in the third goal related to social and labour market dimensions. However, our objectives and targets have moved forward quite significantly.

    In the past three years, some progress has been made. HRDC developed an environmental action plan to improve our tracking of commitments. In the most recent period, we exceeded our target for green procurement, which had been set at about $3 million per year, by close to 9%, and our target that at least 50% of our departmental personnel would have access to waste reduction facilities. But we can and will do more.

[Translation]

    The new departments will build upon these successes and on the lessons learned as well as the recommendations put forth by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

    We agree with the Commissioner's recommendation to clarify the linkages between key departmental activity and sustainable development. To this end, we have implemented a Sustainable Development Issue Scan in order to identify specific sustainable development issues of relevance to the department's agenda. Much work has been done to understand better how these issues link to the program priorities. New and revised objectives, targets and performance measures that are consistent with both these issues, and the priorities of our departments, have been incorporated into our updated Sustainable Development Strategy.

    We agree with the commissioner's recommendations regarding the implementation of a Performance Measurement Framework. Specific attention will be focused on establishing a more comprehensive Performance Measurement Framework with oversight being provided by senior departmental officials by March 31, 2004.

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[English]

    To conclude, from a governance perspective, in addition to the oversight that my colleagues and I maintain on this function, a more formal process involving an internal working group on sustainable development will provide leadership and coordination in the department. This strategy has already been rigorously examined and significantly changed and improved by the examination of three of our senior management committees. They have ensured that the objectives and commitments are appropriate and that the accountabilities for those things are clear in the department.

    Over the next year, our departments will divide the strategy's goals, objectives, and targets along the lines of the two new departments--and our priorities and mandates--to again ensure that we know who's responsible for implementing and taking action on all of our commitments.

    All of our departments must be prepared to adjust to the changing priorities of the government agenda. We expect that improvements will continue to be needed to incorporate and expand on new and evolving priorities, such as green employment and our government's commitments to Kyoto. However, to be effective we must focus on those key priorities that we see will advance the government's sustainable agenda for Canadians.

    Thank you very much.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Thank you very much.

    I would ask our witnesses to hang tough here for a minute. We have a quorum, and there is a motion by Mr. Bigras that perhaps we can deal with right away.

    Mr. Bigras.

[Translation]

    Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    It is my pleasure to submit a motion which reads as follows: that, following the first meeting of the parties to the Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety (GMO), held recently in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia), the Deputy Minister of Environment Canada come before the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development to present a report.

    We know that during the week of February 23 last a conference was held, the first meeting of the parties to the Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety. We also know that a head of delegation, a deputy minister from Environment Canada, was in attendance. I would like to have this deputy minister come and report to the committee on the discussions which were held abroad.

[English]

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Are there any questions?

    Mr. Hubbard.

    Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Has that been tabled with our committee? My office hasn't received it yet.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): The clerk says it was sent to everyone in due course.

    Are there any questions from members?

    Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.): I didn't get it either, but it's okay.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Hubbard, are you okay with the motion?

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: I'm not sure, Mr. Chair. I just got in last night and I haven't seen this, for some reason. But if others are comfortable with it....

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Does anyone else have a problem with it?

    (Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Coming back to our witnesses, I'll start with Mr. Bailey, please.

    Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, witnesses, for coming.

    Frequently, when you serve on more than one committee, you hear about the lack of labour because we're seeing the last of the baby boomers. I wonder if this group has looked at whether there's any way we could maybe have another baby boom, so we wouldn't have to be looking for employment. It might be good for the environment as well. That's just a plank, because I keep hearing the same thing in this relationship.

    The Arctic and much of Canada's sustainable development...its environment is more fragile than other areas. If we are going to take this green message across--which may be the wrong colour to use in that particular phase--what type of education is going to be required, not just for those who happen to live on the land, but because of the progress and what I think will take place in various industries moving into the north? Who is really going to be the watchdog to make sure this fragile environment is not damaged to any extent?

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    Ms. Janet Milne: Can I just clarify your question? Are you asking what kind of education is required, and who is the watchdog?

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Let's say you have some mining, some oil, or whatever goes in.... Each of these organizations would have to have—and would have with them—a detailed description of what are the no's and what are the yes's, and what you can't and can do.

    What I'm saying is, who is the enforcer then? So much of the time, when it comes to environmental issues, the enforcement is so long that the damage is done before anything is rectified. That's really what I'm getting at.

    Ms. Janet Milne: Maybe I can ask my colleague, Andrew, to speak to this issue.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch (Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Investment Programs, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development): I'm with the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, so we are not a department involved in the regulation of environmental activities, of which there are both federal and provincial aspects, depending upon the sector or the land itself. But I might use the question just to raise the existence of the Canada Council for Human Resources in the Environment Industry.

    It's our department that partners with a whole number of sector councils. We partner with employers, employees, and learning institutions.

    This particular council is quite important in terms of promoting environmental or green employment and raising awareness. It has a role in terms of professional development, in terms of the certification of these new occupations, and it has an environment job board that allows people to find employment by making matches. I believe as well that it has a youth internship function that brings young employers into this emerging sector.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: I have a question, Mr. Chair.

    I have seen some of your work in school visitations. Education is provincial, so I'm sure it's come down through the provincial level. But how much input do you have?

    We have the green schools plan, as you know. It's very positive, and much more successful in some areas than in others. Is that from your department, or where did they get this information? They're doing a good job of it.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: I'm sorry, a green school...?

    Mr. Roy Bailey: If they measure up to certain environmental standards and habits and so on, they get to have that prestigious banner, “Come and Visit our Green School”. Then they'll take you around and show you all of the things they have accomplished in order to get that designation.

    Is this all from the provincial departments, or does it come from your department? Where do the criteria come from?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Would this be a primary or a secondary school?

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Primary, mainly.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: I would be happy to look into it and to provide the information back to the committee. I am not aware of it.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Okay. Thank you.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Bigras.

[Translation]

    Mr. Bernard Bigras: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the outset, I want to say that I was very happy to learn from your presentation today that the studies you have carried out show that the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol in Canada should only cause a few changes to the composition of employment, and that these changes should only have a minor effect on growth, since other factors are involved. I am very happy to hear that.

    In the report of the Commissioner of the Environment, on page 22, one can read that HRDC had prepared a qualitative report on the impact of the Kyoto Protocol on employment. This report identified sectors in the economy that could be affected by implementing the Kyoto Protocol. I would thus like to know whether the fact that you conclude today that the impact of the Kyoto Protocol on employment will be relatively minor is based on a qualitative report or on a more in-depth report. You indicated to the commissioner that a more comprehensive study on the effects of the Kyoto Protocol needed to be done, but this has not been carried out. Consequently, are your conclusions today based on the qualitative report that you prepared a few months or years ago, or on a more in-depth report which had not been done at the time of the assessment?

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    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Thank you for the question.

    As Ms. Milne already mentioned, we intend to table two reports in both official languages with the committee as quickly as possible. Yes, it is true that these are qualitative studies.

[English]

    They are qualitative studies. What they conclude is that the Kyoto Protocol will be one of a number of factors contributing to labour market restructuring in specific industries and that indeed it will have some effect on certain occupations, such as primary industries, some processing occupations, manufacturing, utilities, and, to some extent, occupations in transport and machine operation.

    At the same time, the qualitative study would suggest that the protocol will stimulate investment in innovation and lead to some new business opportunities, particularly as they relate to green employment.

    The Kyoto Protocol also reinforces the trends we already see in the labour market: the shift towards employment requiring higher skill levels.

    The report suggests that implementation of the Kyoto Protocol ought not to be of a significant impact for three reasons. First, as Ms. Milne pointed out, the rate of job creation and job loss in the Canadian economy affects millions of Canadians each and every year. I believe my colleague referred to 5 million and 5.5 million job gains and losses in the last two years where we have data. So you should bear in mind that when one produces a study, whether qualitative or quantitative, it has estimates of job gain or loss, which will be of that magnitude in a very large and dynamic labour market.

    Second, it should be pointed out that the Kyoto commitment entails change over a very long period of time, over very many years, so the impact would be mitigated by the passage of time.

    And third, and importantly, there are a number of changes affecting the labour market every year. These changes are cyclical and structural, such as the use of technology and the shift to higher-skilled employment. It's very difficult to isolate the impact of Kyoto from these other factors.

    So that, in essence, is what I've taken from the study. It's obviously longer and more detailed than that.

    We have the expert on the study with us here today, if that's helpful to the committee.

[Translation]

    Mr. Bernard Bigras: In your report, qualitative though it may be, were you able to identify more precisely the industrial sectors that could be affected by the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol? According to what I understand from the commissioner's statements, the report identified sectors in the economy that could be affected.

    Could your preliminary study allow you to say, for instance, whether the oil industry, the automobile industry, or the pulp and paper sector would be more affected than others?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: To discuss this, I would like to introduce Mr. Christian Dea, Director, Strategic Research Studies and Coordination, Human Resources Development Canada.

    Mr. Christian Dea (Director, Strategic Research and Coordination Studies, Department of Social Development): Thank you.

    To answer your question and clarify one point, both reports are essentially qualitative reports. Thus, there is no quantitative assessment of the impacts of implementing the Kyoto Protocol. There is a group within the federal government whose mandate it is to examine quantitative aspects more closely, and we take part in the discussions of this working group.

    As for the two studies, their objective is precisely to predict how the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol will affect the economy, not only at the macroeconomic level, but also at the industrial level, the sectoral level, and by broad occupational group.

    In this regard, by way of illustrating my statements, the two studies highlight the fact that a certain number of sectors risk being more affected than others insofar as the reallocation of resources is concerned. The sectors whose growth may be slightly curtailed are the primary industry sectors such as the mining sector, which you mentioned, but also the oil sector, gas production, as well as the high-energy-consumption manufacturing sectors. The steel sector, for instance, the automotive sector, and chemical producers all use a great deal of energy, and either import or distribute the type of energy that will be targeted by the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol. That is only part of the story, of course.

    The two studies also try to show that as with any change, there will be a reallocation of resources. Some sectors will be more affected than others, but there are others where the outlook is quite interesting. For instance, the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol should stimulate creation and innovation in the area of new technologies, technologies that will be cleaner. All of this will lead to stronger growth in certain industrial sectors and certain professional groups, particularly the sectors involved in environmental technologies. There could also be stronger growth in construction activity, in light of the fact that both in the residential and commercial and industrial sectors, certain sectors or certain equipment and buildings will need to be revitalized. This will lead to increased demand for certain types of workers.

    One of the two studies highlights the development of the “green” economy and refers to sectors such as professional groups in the applied sciences, natural sciences, and engineering, whatever the type of engineering in question—civil, mechanical, electrical, or chemical—as well as architecture, which could see a growing demand for this type of worker. Obviously, all of the sectors related to the environment, such as inspection and the preparation of regulations, will also benefit from the development of the green economy.

    Simply to put things in perspective, there is no quantitative assessment. These are qualitative studies, and their contribution is related to a more micro-economic analysis of the potential impacts of the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol at the industrial, sectoral and professional levels.

º  (1600)  

[English]

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Comartin.

    Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—St. Clair, NDP): I don't think it's been made clear, Mr. Chair, when we're getting these studies, or when they're actually going to be available.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: They can be made available to the committee forthwith, I believe, other than one of them, which is still in the process of being translated to meet with committee procedures of providing them in both official languages. We are talking a matter of days. They have been through our internal edit and quality control process, and we are merely waiting for final translation.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Perhaps you could get those to our clerk as soon as possible, please, so that all members can have them.

    Mr. Comartin.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: Just pursuing that, Mr. Chair, I'm not quite clear on this. With regard to the one that is completed and translated, how long has it been translated, and why was it not made available in advance of the committee meeting?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: It very recently became available. It has just now been translated, sir, and we are quality controlling the French of the translation.

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    Mr. Joe Comartin: Who actually did both studies?

    Mr. Christian Dea: Do you mean the name, the organization...?

    Mr. Joe Comartin: The organization.

    Mr. Christian Dea: HRDC was responsible.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: Ms. Milne, in her study, noted that it had been reviewed by certain “academics”.

    Mr. Christian Dea: Yes, that's the usual process. All research undertaken by the department goes through a quality assurance process. This process is a peer review done by academics involved in the field of the research.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: Did you take into account the influx of new immigrants when making the assessment in terms of what impact it would have?

    Mr. Christian Dea: Again, the assessment was not done in terms of the quantitative impact of what might be associated with the implementation of Kyoto. What we tried to do in the study was to see that the demographic was taken into consideration implicitly, not explicitly. The purpose of the study was more to look at the labour market implications of the implementation of Kyoto by taking a closer look at the occupational and industrial dimensions.

    Basically, then, it was explicitly no and implicitly yes. We're talking about trends in the labour market, and immigration is a significant part of the workforce in terms of the labour market.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: You've made reference to the fact that there is going to be a shift upward in the sense that there will be greater skills required in a post-Kyoto marketplace. Was that taken into account in terms of what types of additional skills would be required? Was there any attempt to quantify that?

    Mr. Christian Dea: Again, we did quantify in terms of skills requirements. We first looked at the labour market implications of the implementation of Kyoto at the industrial level. From that, we established what types of workers were needed in each industry and what types of skills were associated with these workers.

    So in terms of the level of analysis in a study like this, you first do the analysis at the industrial level, and from that you derive the types of workers needed by industries. Then you establish the profiles of these workers in terms of skills or education requirements.

    In our study we found that basically there will be a shift towards occupational groups that are a bit higher in terms of skills. For instance, on the list I just mentioned, you can see that most of them require post-secondary education. We're seeing more and more demand for this type of worker with the development of the green economy.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Mr. Chair, I would just like to augment that.

    The impact of the Kyoto commitment ought not to be overstated, but this shift towards occupations requiring higher levels of education attainment is much broader and much deeper than anything implied by the Kyoto Protocol, obviously. Independently of this, our department has concluded that about three out of four new jobs now will require the equivalent of post-secondary education credentials. We are seeing these skills shortages now in many of these occupations, depending upon the region and the sector.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: Do I still have time?

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Reed.

    Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I'll have to try to touch on the whitecaps of the waves as they're going by.

    There is a paragraph on page 6 that talks about the labour market and how the changes that would ensue from implementing Kyoto would be small relative to the magnitude of these overall flows. Am I interpreting this somehow incorrectly?

    First I'm going to make a prophecy. A decade from now you will not recognize the energy regime that Canada will be operating under. You won't recognize it. That change will take place because of the red flagging on natural gas availability that's taking place now, no more long-term contracts, and the increase in oil consumption in Asia, which is going to drastically alter the way we use energy and the kind of energy we use--and we're not ready for it.

    There is now currently a backlog of people wanting to have their homes assessed for energy efficiency. In some parts of the country people are waiting months, six months. There aren't enough trained people who are qualified to do that work even now. The Government of Ontario has announced that it's asking for 300 megawatts of renewable energy to come online as quickly as possible. Who's going to build those plants? How many companies are there that can build turbines in Ontario? Two. Two companies. Now tell me how there doesn't have to be the beginnings of a massive shift in technological training and applied technology?

    If we go into northern Canada we're still operating our electric power system on diesel fuel. Can you imagine? And that transition has to take place right now; it has to start.

    Who's going to build those plants? Who's going to run them? Are we ready? I don't think so. I think we're still going chip, chip, chip around the edges. It appears to me that maybe we haven't outlined the Kyoto plan as thoroughly as we should have in order to have it reflect on what the demand for labour and what the demand for skills is going to be. Some of it's going to be post-secondary education, but some of it's going to be skills on the ground as well.

    I would just leave with you, in the nature of a challenge, to hopefully consider seriously the need for applied technology, both new technology that's coming online but also technology that's mature and not fully developed in this country.

º  (1610)  

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Sir, I think there are at least three parts to that statement, and in large measure I'm in agreement with them.

    The first is that we may well see some important shifts in energy mix. Needless to say, this has implications for capital formation and it has important implications for our labour market and the skills we have, and I of course have no disagreement in that. Although I'm not a particular expert in changing patterns of energy consumption or energy mix, I have no reason to disagree with that.

    Most importantly, and where I want to underscore what you do say, what our department has been preaching for some time is that we are moving from an economy and from a labour market where our principal concern, if I look backwards say 20 years, was not enough jobs for people. As we move to the future--and it's a future that is here today, sir--depending upon the sector and depending on the region, we find skills shortages today. These are I think critical to our future competitiveness and prosperity, whether in the area of energy or whether in other sectors as well.

    So this is a very real concern to us, and it's why our new department has its focus on lifelong learning, on the critical need to reskill not only the young, because we know there are not enough young to replace the existing workforce, but also on the need for an effective strategy for the reskilling of workers who are in the labour market today.

    We need as well to identify the barriers to foreign credential recognition, because we know that increasingly immigration will be a part of the issue. And we need to keep older workers in the workforce longer.

    We need all of these things, and we need to bring together employers, employees, and unions to rally round this kind of strategy. It's very important for us.

    Mr. Julian Reed: Already, oil sands projects are being delayed. I read about one cost overrun this morning; there was a 38% cost overrun of an oils sands project because of the lack of a number of skills that are really necessary to make that work. And that's conventional energy. That's not even the greening of Canada.

º  (1615)  

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Sir, I've had the benefit of being out to Calgary twice recently, because we partner with the oil and gas sector in terms of their sector council. We just completed a very important study of the human resource issues affecting oil and gas. It's a study I would recommend. It identifies their recruitment and skills shortages, and we're quite happy to partner with them on that, and certainly I know that in the Calgary-Edmonton corridor there's a very acute and immediate skills shortage. It was discussed for a full day at a chamber of commerce symposium that I had the pleasure to be a speaker at.

    So it indeed is very acute, both in that region and in that sector.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Thank you.

    Mr. Hubbard.

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I've had to read this more than once attempting to understand what you are trying to tell us. I know from the questions that have already been put that we're getting broader bits of information towards that end. But as you know, Mr. Chair, this is being televised today, and probably thousands of Canadians are watching what's being said. I'm not sure what we're saying is at a level.... Sometimes they say you should write at a grade five level and attempt to give concrete examples of what is actually going on. I've had difficulty with this. I'm not sure who the authors of this were, and I don't want to criticize them, but I'm not sure we're getting to the real meat of what we're trying to do.

    We have different ways in this country of trying to get people to cooperate. Unless we get a lot of cooperation among employers and among people who live in all these different conditions you talk about, we don't make very much progress. We can lead by example or we can set goals for others to achieve, and we can drive them towards goals by different means and different methods or we can encourage them to go towards goals by developing a strategy that might encourage people to do things.

    When I read it first and heard your presentation, I thought that with 320 offices across the country--and as my friend here said, energy is one of the biggest concerns we have in this country--you might have said to us, “We have 320 offices, and last year they consumed so many megawatts of electricity. Our objective for the next five years is to do such and such. We've decided in terms of our air conditioning units, in terms of our lighting, and in terms of the use of our computers...maybe they should be shut off at night.” And they're often not, around this town; they're left on 24 hours a day.

    Maybe we could talk in terms of the cities. My colleague here is responsible for cities. Are we trying to deal with transportation, about which Mr. Bigras has talked? We talk about trucking as one of the biggest consumers of electricity—one of the biggest sources of pollution we have in this country—but are we making more truck drivers, or are we trying to develop some way to...? In the cities, are we going to have cars? At our previous meeting Mr. Reed said maybe we should have some cities without cars. He travels the country without an automobile by using public transit.

    Mr. Comartin has asked about the report itself, but I hope these are some of the concrete examples we can use to show to Canadians that we have a strategy, that Human Resources—or what do we call this new department, the department of social development?—is working towards seeing that all Canadians can participate in some way to alleviate the situations such as we had in Toronto, where we have had blackouts because people have overdrawn in their use of electricity. We are in a very dangerous position in terms of sustainable energy. Julian here is a great expert at that; he's even generated some electricity in the past.

    But I'd like to have some of your comments on trying to be more concrete. You talk about green. Are we going to stop cutting trees? You talk about paper use. Are we going to save our forests by reducing consumption? Are these some of the objectives you're setting as a department, as an example to other departments and to other employers in this country?

    I'm sorry to take so much time.

    Ms. Janet Milne: Perhaps I could speak to a couple of those things.

    I think we certainly agree with you that an organization that has as many employees and offices as HRSD and SD have has a very significant obligation to look at how we do business and to make sure we are doing it in a manner that takes a leadership role.

    We've made some progress. I think most of our buildings, for example, have their lights on automatic switch-off so that at a certain time, if no one goes and turns them off, the lights go off. That's not true in every single office yet. We would like to get there, but there is that capacity in most of our buildings at this point in time.

    In regard to monitoring, I must say we have not monitored, to my knowledge, what exactly our energy consumption is across the country. That's an interesting option.

    We have developed an online tool for sustainable development that our employees can go to. It gives advice on how to conserve on water and power and advises on the shutdown of computers, for example. So we are trying, by virtue of our work on the corporate culture, to increase our employees' understanding of how the way they individually do business impacts on the bigger agenda.

    As you'll notice, one of the four main goals of the strategy we're just tabling now is working on corporate culture, that is, enabling our employees to understand what they can do to make a difference. It includes things like incorporating material on sustainable development into all of our leadership development materials, our training materials for new employees. We have an employee orientation program. New employees coming into our departments are trained on what our value structures are and how the department works. We're incorporating pieces into that approach.

    We have now also, across the country, identified a green representative--or will have by March 31--in each one of our regional offices and in each branch in headquarters. We are making tools available to those people.

    On that front, we are taking those steps to try to encourage people to understand how every individual has a role to play in doing these things.

    Your comments on transportation are interesting because we are in the process--and this is in the strategy as well--of developing a commuter strategy with Transport Canada, which has the lead on this file. We will encourage our employees to use alternative ways of getting to and from work. Our commitment is to have that strategy developed by the end of next fiscal year and then in the last year to work on really getting out and getting people engaged in how to do it.

    So there's interest in and work on figuring out how to deal with the moving around issue.

    Finally, in terms of our operations, looking at waste reduction is a big part. That of course comes to your questions around paper. In addition to that, we're looking at how we focus on the high-tech instruments we have--the printers, the photocopiers, all of the equipment we use--to look at what kinds of recycling we can introduce on those dimensions, as well as on the paper side.

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: I think we certainly had an adequate.... Maybe in terms of your resolve to lead in this, you might in the next month or so put before our committee, or at least circulate to our committee, what these goals and objectives are. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I think it might be good for us, in terms of this committee, in terms of the environment, to see maybe in a year's time if your department has reached the objective you're setting out.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): I believe, Mr. Hubbard, that is exactly what the Auditor General was calling for, something more specific in terms of “Here are your targets, here's what you've accomplished, and here's the timeline”. So I believe that's been requested, and certainly I think it's good that we request that as a committee.

    Mr. Godfrey.

    Hon. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): Thank you very much, and welcome.

    I was frankly a little puzzled by your opening remarks, in terms of what I understood the problem to be relative to the commissioner's report--the suggestion that disappointing progress had been made. It seemed that the questions they asked were fairly precise. That is to say, they wanted to know what the impact on labour markets would be of the implementation of the Kyoto accord.

    Their view of sustainable development relates quite precisely to environmental sustainable development, as opposed to any other sort. Yet when I read your answer, it reminded me of when I used to be a professor and assigned essay topics and exam topics: you were always a little puzzled when students went off a little bit and answered questions, very nicely, that hadn't actually been asked.

    Here's the difficulty I have--and maybe I'm missing something; maybe it's the incomplete information I have from the commissioner. You see, I'm all for sustainable social development. I think I even know what the term means. I could probably define it. But that wasn't the question you were asked. That wasn't the essay assignment. The essay assignment was, how do you help Canadian labour markets deal with the implication of green employment, or unemployment caused by a shift from, let's say, heavy final emitters?

    You talk about things that I deeply believe in myself. You talk about children living in poverty, the employment of disabled people, and the problem of homelessness, and you talk about the greening of your internal operations, all of which are commendable things to talk about but aren't actually the question that was asked. So that's my problem.

    I might be impolite and say, well, maybe one of the reasons the commissioner kept referring to your disappointing progress in achieving the results is that you keep not answering the question he asks.

    It came out in the testimony from Mr. Dea that in fact you know quite a lot about this issue. I guess if I were to try to dig in a bit and go back to the question you were asked--this is the commissioner again--to explore ways in which HRDC could better promote and foster the shift to sustainable development in Canada, this is not about your internal operations or your 350 offices but actually helping Canadian labour markets. It was suggested that this be initiated by May 1, 2003.

    I heard in general terms that there will be other shifts taking place in the labour market, that we are going to need more education, that this isn't the biggest thing that's going to impact, but maybe I missed something in terms of how we're going to do the analysis sector by sector. Will you use sectoral councils to do the analysis of what the losses and the opportunities are? And what will the strategies be to promote those new sectors and to help workers who are being displaced do the transition part so they can get to the new sector?

    Maybe that is the content of the studies you are about to release--or one is released and one is about to be released. Would I find that kind of information in the study? And am I being unfair, too? Of course, you are allowed to fight back.

º  (1625)  

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: I'm not sure if I can do justice to your commentary, so if I miss something, be sure to draw my attention to it.

    In the Department of HRSD, the programs we left are fundamentally about supporting labour market adjustment and employees who, for whatever reason, lose their employment. That is at the centre of the employment insurance program--our largest program--our labour market development agreements, and our broad range of employment services. So insofar as you move from the studies that we have described today--and that will be shortly available to the committee--insofar as we do see in the years ahead structural adjustment that relates to Kyoto, these programs will serve us well in mitigating that.

    I've tried to underscore the fact that our new focus with the restructuring that was announced by the Prime Minister on December 12 that gives greater priority to lifelong learning and our future workplace strategies should serve us well in mitigating any impacts that may arise.

    We do indeed have the study, which gives us some identification of this emerging green sector, I'll call it. It does identify, I think, 221,000 jobs, 1.5% of the labour market, as I recall.

    And I would like to underscore your reference to the sector councils. We are trying to grow sector councils. They now cover about a quarter of the labour market. We have a goal to have them cover about half.

    I can't do justice to those sector councils. Each one of them we support so that they can develop their own human resource strategy. It's not something we do in Ottawa as bureaucrats. It has to be done by employers and employees working together, with our facilitation. In each case, you will find they have recruitment and retention issues, probably aging demographics. They need to have their own human resource strategy, and we're there to facilitate and support in that regard.

º  (1630)  

    Hon. John Godfrey: But what would have helped Mr. Hubbard and perhaps all of us, I think, instead of going on rather generally about sustainable development and quoting Brundtland and all that kind of stuff, would have been if you'd taken one of those sectoral councils. Let's take CSTEC, which is one of the most developed, the steel sector. We know there is something called “green steel”. Now, I don't know whether green steel is the answer to what the problem is in Hamilton; I haven't a clue. But it would seem to me that it might have been more helpful to us as a committee to understand, in a specific situation for a sector that is undergoing stress, what this “green” part means. What are the opportunities it offers, what are the programs, and what are the kinds of strategies we can use where we can either use existing tools or future tools? That's the sort of thing that would help us get our minds wrapped around it.

    Or we could go back to what Mr. Reed said and do the same for the energy sector. Are they just generic skills that would be needed by anybody in a new economy, or are there some specific things that would be helpful for us to focus on? It's that lack of example and precision, I think, that is frustrating committee members.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Everything we do in terms of human resource work with respect to the sector councils is available in the public sector and obviously is accessible to the committee at its wish.

    I would like to make a distinction--it comes up in some of the discussion--where we cannot go beyond what the mandate of our department is. Our department relates to human resource and skills development in the federal sphere, so for some of the questions that come up, we are really looking for an industrial or a sectoral strategy. For example, in steel there are issues that relate to international trade and the like, sectoral adjustment issues that are beyond the mandate of our department. Similarly, when there's discussion about transport mode or the stewardship of forestry resources, insofar as it departs from the human resource aspect, it's beyond the mandate of our department.

    Hon. John Godfrey: On issues that are partly your mandate--that is, to help adjustment--and partly somebody else's mandate, do you work in partnership with other federal departments or provincial departments so your part can be seen as part of a larger solution?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Absolutely. I can refer to the transport symposium I had the pleasure of attending in Toronto that was held in December. It brought together all the transport players, and it certainly brought together the human resource strategy and the other issues the transport sector was dealing with. We very much like to see that kind of integration.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Thank you, Mr. Godfrey.

    Mr. Marcil.

[Translation]

    Hon. Serge Marcil (Beauharnois—Salaberry, Lib.): I have a very practical question.

    In fact, one could say that all of the transition measures are actually under your department. Is that the case?

[English]

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: In terms of the labour market, sir, yes.

[Translation]

    Hon. Serge Marcil: Since the Minister of the Environment has been urging Canada to sign the Kyoto agreement and to implement it, and since studies show that employment in certain sectors could be affected, have you undertaken any discussions with unions to analyze the situation or put forward certain transition measures to help Canadian workers, men and women? Today is International Women's Day.

    Mr. Christian Dea: Yes. With the other federal departments involved, we have met with certain national unions in this context to exchange information and develop a common point of view on the mechanisms that should be put in place to minimize the adjustments that will affect workers in the sectors that may be impacted.

º  (1635)  

    Hon. Serge Marcil: What is the climate surrounding these discussions? Do the union representatives seem to have a positive attitude to the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol? Do they seem to want to facilitate it? I am referring to the oil sector and the pulp and paper sector, among others. There are a lot of jobs in those sectors.

    Mr. Christian Dea: The only meetings I attended were with the Canadian Labour Congress. The CLC supported the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol. Thus, the climate of these exchanges was, generally speaking, very constructive. We had to agree on the best measures to take to ensure that there be a good follow-up to the adjustment process. We also discussed what should be done to exchange information effectively so as to ensure that we have all of the necessary information to make decisions to minimize the irritants that could accompany these adjustments.

    Unfortunately, I cannot give you a full account of the discussions that took place with the union representatives.

    Hon. Serge Marcil: In 2002 the Climate Change Plan for Canada was released. Did your department, Human Resources Development Canada, take part in the drafting of the report as such?

[English]

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: I am advised that in terms of the climate change plan for Canada, we participated as required through an interdepartmental working group on climate change. The major participants in that were Finance Canada, Natural Resources Canada, Environment Canada, and the Privy Council Office. By and large, as you well know, with regard to climate change, Natural Resources Canada and Environment Canada are the two leaders.

[Translation]

    Hon. Serge Marcil: Canada ratified the Kyoto Protocol. Even though Russia has not yet got on the bandwagon, our country intends to continue to give concrete effect to the intentions it expressed at Kyoto.

    I would like to know whether your department has monitored the labour market since that ratification. If so, what have you observed? Has the labour market been affected at this time?

[English]

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Sir, I wouldn't want to make any speculation on the likelihood of ratification by any nation of the Kyoto Protocol. I'm not an authority on that.

    The kinds of studies that are being discussed here, sir, as well as what you will find in the climate change plan itself would hardly lead anyone to make any useful statement about an employment impact in the month or the year we're in now. You will find various studies where people look 10 years into the future and try to do some kind of forecast based on all kinds of assumptions about what the impact would likely be. That's what you will find in the Government of Canada's plan itself, where it puts forward some scenarios and talks about what it might mean in terms of economic and employment impacts.

    Our study here is qualitative; it is not quantitative. It is looking at some of the labour market tendencies and trends and how the Kyoto commitment, if implemented, will probably be yet another factor leading to the changes in the composition of employment that we are now seeing--the tendency for a movement toward employment with a much higher skill or education element to it, as well as the shift in certain occupations or sectors, as my colleague has described.

º  (1640)  

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): I might just end the first round with a question.

    I was going to ask you about how we're going to measure what your targets are and how we're going to measure that to know whether you have achieved it and so on. I think some of the other members have alluded to that.

    I also think Mr. Comartin's questioning about these programs...we need to see it so we can see exactly what you have. Obviously we're at a disadvantage in terms of asking some of these questions.

    When I look at the one-tonne challenge, I can't help but think that will have an impact if we were to achieve it. If you look at that even further, that's going to result in a saving of 20 megatonnes if everyone lived up to that. Then we have another 220 megatonnes that we have to try to achieve. That's going to have a huge impact on power companies, on energy, and on all of those things.

    It would seem that the labour impact of all of these things would be extreme. It may be positive, but it would be very major. Of course, I can't help but wonder if we slow speed limits to 80 kilometres an hour, which would help reduce energy consumption, who's going to police all of that? That's obviously a major labour issue.

    If we're going to stop idling cars.... Well, we might sit outside a vote each night and look at the cabinet ministers' cars that idle out there for hours, including the Prime Minister's.

    We might look at insulation and how that can change the way we do things. It would seem to me it would have a major labour impact if we were really serious about doing this protocol. It would seem to me that it would have a great competitive disadvantage, in some cases, to places like the U.S., which is 90% of our trade.

    I wanted to hear that we were going to become leaders in technology. In actual fact, the wind energy technology is in Denmark. They have a 10-year head start. The U.S. has committed $4.6 billion to hydrogen research, which puts us a long way behind.

    Those are the kinds of things that it would seem to me I would like a government agency to tell me: “Okay, here's where we are, here's where we have to go, and here's how we're going to evaluate to get there”. Much as Mr. Hubbard said, how do we gauge this? That's what Canadians are asking.

    I find your report somewhat baffling in the sense that I'm not sure what you're saying. I think that's difficult. Maybe we need to read your reports first to give you the credit so that we really know what you are saying.

    I don't know whether that's a statement or a question, but I certainly feel somewhat frustrated. I get the feeling from some other members that they are as well. I don't know whether you care to answer that, or we can move to Mr. Comartin. It's up to you.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Mr. Chairman, in large measure, I would suggest that the commentary in that statement is one that relates to the Government of Canada's climate change plan and not one that ought to be addressed to the department that has the mandate for human resources and skills development.

    It's fair...these studies that have been made available to you would suggest.... Where I would beg to differ is the sense that there would be an immediate, sharp, and extraordinarily negative impact on labour markets from the Kyoto commitment or from the climate change plan. That is not what we are concluding, based on our qualitative study, for the factors in our statement. When one takes into account the size of the labour market, the changes we are now seeing in terms of the annual flux of between 5 million and 5.5 million jobs, when one sees the tendency now towards a shift to higher-skilled employment, it would be extraordinarily difficult to discern or measure the impact of Kyoto over what we're now seeing.

    For example, the figure used in the climate change plan in 2002 for between now and 2010, based on one scenario, would suggest 60,000 fewer jobs than might otherwise be expected on a base of 1.26 million new jobs. That kind of magnitude, sir, is the magnitude we're suggesting. So I would put that 60,000 number, which is not a figure from our qualitative study but from here, in the context of the 5.5 million Canadians who successfully located new employment in 1999.

    So certainly we do have a mandate, and our message today is to suggest that Canadians indeed do need access to lifelong learning opportunities for this new labour market. There's no question about that. That will be a major challenge for this country and a key to our future competitiveness and prosperity. We do need a labour market that provides support for adjustment, whether it's Kyoto, whether it's all the other cyclical and structural shocks we see each and every year.

    We have many challenges, but we would not exaggerate Kyoto or focus on it as if it were profoundly different from the kinds of things we've dealt with this year, and last year, and the year before.

º  (1645)  

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Comartin, second round.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    The commissioner on sustainability raised the point that the green employment study was supposed to be done initially in October 2002 and then completed in 2003, and we're hearing from you today that it's about to be completed somewhere around mid-March 2004. Would you tell the committee why it took so long to do?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: Perhaps my colleague can comment. Bear in mind that 2002 was a year of some change on this front, given the formation of the government's green plan and the formation of the interdepartmental committee. But my colleague can speak more specifically.

    Mr. Christian Dea: In addition to the factor that was just presented, we have also learned through the process. The first study has helped us identify areas for which we need to do a more comprehensive form of analysis. That explains a little bit some of the delay that was associated with the second study. We had to reposition the scope of the second study, and we had to reposition it in a way that we were looking for more detailed information and more analysis done to have a better understanding of not only what is green employment but the profile and the skills associated with that. That was one main reason.

    The second one was a change in the environment or the strategy at the federal level, which has let us focus a bit more on the qualitative assessment side. And we're participating with other departments in assessing the quantitative impact.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: Are you doing any ongoing research, and are you going to produce any additional study?

    Mr. Christian Dea: Andrew, do you want to respond.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: As you rightly drew attention to, we are just now completing these.

    I think we will certainly participate in the interdepartmental effort. We will see how the climate change commitment unfolds in Canada. We are always engaged in labour market analyses and studies, and if we can be helpful and add value, I am sure we will do so. We are also always engaged in human resource studies, both through the sector councils and through a particular database called COPS, which is very occupational specific.

    Mr. Joe Comartin: I guess the concern I have is with the jobs. I look at Denmark as the model. They created, in a country of 3.5 million, over less than a decade 12,000 new jobs, mostly in engineering and in manufacturing, which would probably be all high-skilled, even on the manufacturing side. I don't think we can extrapolate that to Canada, because they're so much further ahead of us in gathering purchases from around the globe. But if we could, on a straight per capita basis, that's about 100,000 jobs. That's not inconsequential in a market, even if we are creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs per year.

    I just want to say to you how frustrated I am at not having the studies, because it would be a lot easier for us to ask you questions on this. I suppose, Mr. Chair, we should, once the studies are out, look at whether we call people back to get a better comprehension. But the question is, have you done any comparative work? Western Europe is, by any independent or objective analysis, quite a bit further ahead of us in dealing with Kyoto, by as much as a decade in most cases. When you did this, did you do any comparative work on the economies of western Europe and the impact on jobs?

º  (1650)  

    Mr. Christian Dea: Not explicitly as part of the two studies. We have done comparisons with all of the most industrialized countries, but it was not the focus of the two studies, so you will not see that reflected in them.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Thank you.

    Mr. Reed.

    Mr. Julian Reed: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I'd like to address what appears to be a relatively negative job assessment with the implementation of Kyoto. Is that what I read, that you're thinking there will be fewer jobs as a result of the implementation of Kyoto? I heard the number 60,000.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: That is not a number from our study. Our study has no such numbers. It's not an estimate or a forecast of the Government of Canada, but it is a figure you will find in the Government of Canada's climate change plan. I'm very pleased you asked that, because I hope the impression of a negative number is not left. What I've been trying to underscore, if I've had any success at all today, is that the impact of the Kyoto commitment on employment would be extraordinarily small or modest, perhaps too small or modest to discern, measure, or isolate from the many other factors that affect our labour market. One of the reasons I cited that 60,000 figure was to contrast it with the 1.26 million net job growth, to put it in relation to that and to the 5.5 million new jobs that were taken up by Canadians as recently as 1999.

    We know it will have some effect on the composition of the labour market, and my colleagues tried to describe that, but overall, our problem in Canada is a skills shortage, not being able to find people for these jobs.

    Mr. Julian Reed: In 1994 I co-chaired a task force on ethanol here. One of the naysayers, a senior official from a ministry, who will remain nameless to protect the innocent, gave us an environmental lecture on the evils of ethanol and how it would cost 4,000 jobs if 10% ethanol went into gasoline across Canada. We finally got hold of the study and were able to read all of it. It cost 4,000 jobs in one sector and created 6,000 in another. So I'm very wary when I see these assessments that it's going to reduce employment. I don't believe them. Sure, the jobs will change. You may not have as many in the oil sector, though I think now, with our exports to the States, you're going to have more, but the fact is that it does not necessarily mean a decline in employment at all. If this regime is going to manifest itself through the next decade, it won't matter whether Kyoto is ratified around the world or not if Canada can still proceed and take a position of leadership and make huge economic gains from it.

    I leave that caution with you. I'm glad you didn't create those numbers, because I will challenge the creator of those numbers head to head anywhere anytime. I hope nobody in this room created those numbers.

º  (1655)  

    Mr. Joe Comartin: The Minister of the Environment.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: When you have an opportunity to see the printed version of the opening statement given by my colleague Ms. Milne, I think you'll see that it's fundamentally in accord with your statement. It indicates that implementing the accord will lead to some shifts in the composition of employment. We are not expecting absolute declines in employment. The shifts should lead to relatively minor changes in growth rates, which we know are affected by many factors.

    I take your other warning, sir, as suggesting that our qualitative study was perhaps the right approach, as opposed to one that was quantitative.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Hubbard.

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

    With the change in government, we have your department breaking into different parts. The training and labour market development varies from province to province, depending on how you approach the activity and what agreements you have with the various provinces. But how much money has the federal government committed to labour market and training?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: I'm a little worried about coming up with a figure--

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: I know it's difficult, because you've had changes, but approximately how much money do we spend annually?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: We have agreements with provinces, the labour market development agreements. On top of that we have other employment programming aimed at particular groups, such as aboriginal persons, youth, and the like. It would be in excess of $2 billion. I could have a specific table of expenditures made available to you. Actually, our main estimates are just being made available now, sir, and they reflect our new business lines. They do reflect the two departments, so that would be an authoritative source of information on that.

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: I thought it would be quite a bit more than that. Anyhow, there is a great amount of money spent on this. As someone has mentioned before, in identifying occupations that will be new, it will need rejuvenation. Have you identified 1,000 different occupations that need training skills in the next decade?

    Second, how are you encouraging our youth and our aboriginal people and those who are in need of work? Sometimes, back in labour market development, everybody wants to be a hairdresser; we all want to take a certain course. We saw a lot of criticism, and it seems to be an open business: they take what they want, somebody sets up a little school, and gosh darn, we've got enough hairdressers probably in this country to look after most of us for the next 1,000 years, especially if you're like Roy and me. A lot of money is not being spent, I think, very effectively. I have to be critical. It's probably not your fault; it could be the provinces' fault, because they can interview these people, but they're allowed to take anything they want.

    Have we identified, as a human resource department, the skills that are needed for the next decade? Are we encouraging people to gain those skills? The people Julian talks about in respect of creating generators or developing wind energy...do you think we're doing enough in this area? How can we be assured that you're doing enough to encourage people to take the courses to develop the skills our economy will require? Do you have the 100 occupations, the 1,000 occupations? Are we really working towards that?

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: This is an enormously profound question, and it's very difficult to do it justice in replying, I would say. Certainly, our department invests a great deal of time and effort in labour market information, in trying to assess labour markets in aggregate both at the national level and on a regional basis and on both a sectoral and an occupational basis. We also invest a great deal of time in looking at the changing occupational mix, and we're very much involved in occupational certification.

    That being said, this is not a Soviet economy, sir; this is not a planned economy. Efforts by governments to foresee the future, to foresee the forces of supply and demand, often lead to less than perfect results. I recall, for example, a very important leader of the software sector here in this city who indicated that there was an immediate shortage of 50,000 employees in that sector and that it was time for the public sector and the education sector to respond to that forthwith. Again, events unfolded, and as it turned out, that was the sector that now sees reduced employment today from what it had at that peak.

    So we do these things and we do them on a sectoral basis that very much relates to the sectoral studies. I think if you contact any of our regional offices in any province of Canada, they will give you labour market information on the basis of the provincial outlook. We have regular exchanges with our provincial counterparts.

    One of the challenges we have, though, sir, is finding a way to have a learning system and to have a better correspondence with the labour market needs as we see them. That is one of the critical gaps that we see in this country right now.

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    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. Hubbard.

    Mr. Charles Hubbard: Mr. Chair, if I may, I want to use the Soviet type. The British have used it too, and I've been involved in education for 30 years. But I know, watching young people pick careers, that we can do a great deal to motivate people to go into particular areas of adventure. I think adventure is what we have to be concerned about, because we are going into a period of adventures in terms of our next decade and the years ahead. I'm not talking, when I speak, in terms of directing people; I'm talking about encouraging people and showing them opportunities. Quite often I'm not sure that either your department or the province's really does a great deal to open up opportunities, to create a sense of adventure and opportunity for young people.

    Bob, I don't mean to dwell on that, but we do have to provide some direction, probably, to our young people to show them there's a great world out there and they have to move in terms of new ideas towards things like Julian and others have referred to.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): If I could, I'll ask our guest to answer that briefly. I know it's a huge area when you start talking about motivation of young people.

    Mr. Andrew Treusch: It's our difficulty in trying to describe some of our programming, sir, so we will be brief. I have Christian as well as Don Dejong on youth awareness and career futures.

    Mr. Christian Dea: I just want to talk about two initiatives the department is involved in. These initiatives have as a goal to support youth and young people in making decisions about the future.

    The first one is “Job Futures”; it's an annual publication done internally in collaboration with more than a hundred professional associations, with the provincial governments as well, and with other federal departments. This publication is there precisely to give, not only to youth but to everybody who wants it, an understanding of what is happening in the labour market by occupational groups in terms of the skills required and to provide them with information not only on the current situation but also on what might be the situation five years from now. Given that we live in a very complex society, one where people make their decisions based on their own preferences and where preferences differ considerably among individuals, just providing this information should allow them to make more informed decisions based on what opportunities there might be for them.

    The other initiative I would like to mention for the committee is a pilot project done in Montreal. This is not only from HRSD or DSD; it's a federal initiative. Basically, they have pulled together all of the information on programs available to youth in one area, and it's really well done. It's easy to access and it's youth-oriented. Precisely what they are trying to do there is, as soon as a young person comes to their office, they try to work with them and provide them with everything the federal government is doing in terms of programs or support and try to help them in establishing what might be future opportunities for them.

    So here are two specific examples.

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    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): Mr. DeJong, I understand you have a comment to make as well. I would ask you to be rather brief. I'm chairing another meeting at 5 o'clock. That is my own problem, but if you could be rather brief, I'd appreciate it.

    Mr. Don DeJong (Director General, Human Resources Partnerships Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development):

    All right.

    We tend to work through the sector councils. I'm responsible for managing the sector council program. Basically, what we are trying to accomplish with them is to encourage each of these employer groups to provide information to young people, aboriginals, and immigrants on the kinds of careers and opportunities that will unfold or that they expect to have unfold over the next while.

    We do work with encouraging employers and unions to provide information through the educational system to affect career choices. It's the best we can do, and it's not entirely perfect, but on the other hand, it's about individuals making choices with as much information as we can possibly give them. To do that we simply use our employers, our unions, and our relationships with the provinces. We do work with the education system on this as well.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bob Mills): I'd like to thank our guests on behalf of the committee and suggest that possibly we may have you back after we've reviewed the information and your reports.

    I suppose we'd like to also know, as one of my colleagues suggested--it's a common question--just how many hybrid vehicles you have within your very large department. You might include that in your report as well.

    Thank you very much.

    The meeting is adjourned to the call of the chair.