SELE Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, March 24, 2003

¼

1805

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP)

The Chair

¼

1810

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

¼

1815

¼

1820

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. James Robertson (Committee Researcher)

The Chair

Mr. James Robertson

¼

1825

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Scott Reid

¼

1830

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

¼

1835

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. James Robertson

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. André Cyr

¼

1840

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. James Robertson

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

¼

1845

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. James Robertson

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

¼

1850

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

¼

1855

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

½

1900

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

½

1905

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. André Cyr

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Anita Neville

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

---

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

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NUMBER 002

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Monday, March 24, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¼  (1805)  

[English]

    The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order.

    We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. We're pleased to have with us as our very first witnesses on this issue MP Anita Neville and MP Bev Desjarlais.

    Bev, we've given you about 10 minutes, and we'll see how that goes if there are questions and answers after. Since you are our guinea pig, we'll see how this works.

    Before you start, all of us have a map before us in the book that includes the riding of Churchill. I wonder if we could just clarify this, André? Can we see the current boundary from here?

    Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): The current limits are the full colour ridings, and the outlines, which are a sort of burgundy, are the proposed limits.

    The Chair: Are you saying the purple piece and the blue piece, which has the green line through it--

    Mr. André Cyr: Where the numbers are? The current ridings are in full colour, and the burgundy lines are the proposed ridings.

    The Chair: Are we adding that piece of dark purple and blue to Bev's riding?

    Mr. André Cyr: Yes. We're adding a bit of Provencher and a bit of Selkirk--Interlake. This is being gained by Churchill.

    The Chair: Bev, are you in agreement?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Pretty much.

    The Chair: There's confusion over what we're supposed to have. John's going over to grab the other stuff, and we'll listen to your presentation. You'll obviously have extra time, since we may have some questions.

    Yvon, do you have a point of clarification?

¼  (1810)  

    Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Chair, that's why I said last week it would be nice to have two screens, the old map and the new one, the two areas. For the ones who know what they are doing, it's okay, but for the ones who are not familiar with the area, it's a problem.

    The Chair: In fairness, Mr. Godin, both of these things are up here, but it will also be helpful for us to have both paper maps in front of us, I think.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: If we had both, that would be fine.

    The Chair: We are going to get that.

    Now I'll ask Ms. Desjarlais to make her presentation, and if we have further questions, we'll figure that out.

    Over to you.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I hope everyone has the proposal I put forward, my motion, and a copy of the objections I had to the boundary changes.

    I've been a member of Parliament since 1997. I've lived in northern Manitoba, in Thompson, for 20 years. Through the course of my five years as a member of Parliament I've travelled into every single community within the riding on more than one occasion. Over the course of time, as the member of Parliament, I've made adjustments to my staffing as a result of trying to meet the needs of the riding, to the point where I operate three full-time constituency offices, one in St-Georges, the southern end of the riding, one in The Pas, and one out of Thompson, trying to get to all areas of the riding.

    The statutory requirement for Elections Canada is that there can be a 25% variance of population to address the situations of larger ridings and the challenges to meet the needs of that riding for members of Parliament. The commission within Manitoba took it upon themselves to disregard the 25% variance, to the point that they made it absolutely clear that they were just going to have everybody with the same population, or as close as possible, therefore, I believe, making it much tougher to give the people in a large riding the same access to a member of Parliament as in other areas of Canada, just because of the challenges of the geography.

    You have the map there, but just to give you some indication, I'm going to use the highway map, because it's important for people to see what it entails. This is the map of Manitoba. The Churchill riding starts down here, goes all the way up, and over on this side it starts about here and goes all the way up. A good number of those communities are remote fly-in communities. Some only have winter road access. Over half the first nations in Manitoba are in my riding already. Each and every first nation has its own distinctive culture and ways of dealing with things, and so each and every one deserves the same recognition in having access to the MP, not just having it done through an operating tribal organization or whatever. They each deserve the same representation.

    The proposed change was initially going to add in this whole area up here, a good portion of Selkirk--Interlake. After the objections I indicated to them, they changed it and were only going to add in this amount. But quite frankly, this area right here fell into the same considerations as the area below it. The communities in this area are directly tied in their trade and everything to the communities in the south, the Selkirk--Interlake region and into Winnipeg. They do very little movement north into the other areas of the province. There's no question that the Churchill riding has a community of interest in pretty much every area, because we have farming, we have mining, we have forestry, we have the first nations, we have the challenges of health care access, but these communities, by being moved into this area, are losing their community of interest in the southern area.

    From the perspective of a member of Parliament trying to meet the needs of the riding, it adds in 400 kilometres of travel, with absolutely nothing in this area but trees, no communities. It's 140 kilometres down and another 80 over to get to the communities, no matter whether you get to it from Winnipeg or from the next community in the riding, not even Thompson. If the member of Parliament was from Grand Rapids, they would be in the same situation. I looked at it and I went, oh my gosh, how do I do it? The budget that's there has never been a problem for me, we've been able to make the budget work for us, we have not fallen short. It's time. I'm being frank with you, it's the time to do the job properly.

¼  (1815)  

    The other consideration I don't think commissioners look into is the fact that when you're dealing with first nation communities, you don't have all the amenities of other communities where, as a member of Parliament, you travel in. You don't necessarily have the stores if you need to get gas or to buy food. You also don't have places to stay overnight. There aren't hotels in all of these communities. So what do you do? You'd have to drive in and out in a good number of instances, or go door to door and see if you can stay overnight. I'm not being facetious about this. That's a consideration when we go into every community, what our emergency plan is if we don't find a place to stay. So to add in an area where it's just 200 kilometres extra going in and out again before we can get to the next place just seemed unbelievable from my perspective.

    I think I've given you a fairly good idea. That is the area of concern. It makes it tougher to represent the whole riding and give everybody the same consideration I believe they deserve. I'm not trying to sing my own praises or anything, but I've really have gone out of my way to try to meet the needs. I was the first member of Parliament to have constituency offices throughout the area in the history of the Churchill riding. Members of Parliament have tried at different times, I think, to have maybe one person work a couple of hours here and there. I have put in three full-time offices, and I have only one staff person in Ottawa to work it. I've really done my darnedest to meet the needs. How can they expect someone to add that much more onto the riding?

    Obviously, if it happens, you do the best you can, but I don't think it's fair actually to the constituents either. First nations people did not get the vote until the 1950s. We are always looking at ways to encourage more participation of first nation communities. I've met with chiefs in communities and we've discussed different ways we can get people actively involved in the voting process. We've really tried to work at those things, and to say to first nation communities, you've got one member of Parliament who will have to represent 70 some communities over so many hundreds of square kilometres, and tell them to expect the same representation is tough.

    That 200 kilometres should go back into the Selkirk--Interlake riding, which is where the community of interest is.

    On the Victoria Beach area, there was an understanding that they would probably fit more into the Selkirk--Interlake area as well. I made it work, they were part of the riding. In 1997, when I was doing the door-to-door in my first campaign, the boundaries had just been changed to add the Powerview-Pine Falls area into the Churchill riding. The first the people in those communities knew about it was when I was doing the door-to-door campaigning. They did not know they were part of the Churchill riding.

¼  (1820)  

    Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Where is Powerview-Pine Falls. I'm sorry, I'm just lost geographically.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: They're at one of the southernmost points, but I'm trying to point out that even in those areas they didn't know they were part of the Churchill riding, because there's a tendency not to pay attention to electoral processes and boundary changes. To us it seems crazy, you should pay attention, but to the ordinary person it's not the most important thing. In that area at that time it was, because they were upset that they were part of Churchill, and I've worked very hard to change their feeling that they wouldn't get the representation. We put the office down there, and I worked out of that office for one area of the riding. But I understood their point. They didn't know they were there.

    There are three or four other communities a little more south, smaller communities around the Pine Falls-Powerview area. The recommendation for that area is to leave the first nation of Fort Alexander in the Churchill riding, but to have Powerview, Pine Falls, and the other communities down below go into Provencher. I'm going to be blunt. The white communities of Powerview and Pine Falls don't have any objection to going into Provencher, but again, the community of interest is there between Fort Alexander and Pine Falls and Powerview. The Pine Falls paper plant is located on Sagkeeng first nation land. The people of Sagkeeng and Fort Alexander use the Pine Falls hospital. At some point we have to recognize that their community of interest is crucially important. Again, the chief in Fort Alexander has been one of the strongest in trying to get more active involvement within the community. It's one of the things they're working on.

    The west side of Manitoba on that side still falls within the Churchill riding, and the only road access is going through Pine Falls-Powerview, and then up along those roads to go into Poplar River, communities that don't have road access yet, but in the near future it may be there. So from my perspective as an MP, it's possible to operate, because you've got to go to that area anyway, but I understand that the people there felt more of an affinity to Provencher, and I think any MP just has to work to bridge those gaps.

    Do you want me to leave it at that?

    The Chair: Maybe you can also send that map up. Thanks.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: The area that is now being looked at as being added in, I just put a pen line around it.

    The Chair: You can just make a note for New Brunswick that we need to each have a real map.

    Mr. James Robertson (Committee Researcher): Oh, yes. That was an oversight this time.

    The Chair: No, can we also get a highway map?

    Mr. James Robertson: Sure. We'll have highway maps for each province.

¼  (1825)  

    The Chair: Perhaps you can just circulate the map and go there, because if we want to manipulate the map, we want André to do it on the computer under your instructions.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: The purple section you were talking about is what they're taking out of Churchill, not adding in.

    The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Above the red line the purple is being removed.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: No. The area they're talking about is Pine Falls-Powerview.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): The red line is where Churchill is currently?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: So the purple that is delineated there is now going into Provencher, so you're losing that little piece there in the purple and a little piece of blue, which is now Selkirk--Interlake.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: Perfect.

    The Chair: So just to be clear, you don't mind giving up the blue bit, but you want to keep the purple.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: They are all really wonderful.

    The Chair: I know, but for making the riding workable for whoever the MP might be--

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Absolutely. Actually, the blue part going out decreases a little bit the area you have to travel. The purple part going out doesn't decrease anything, because I have to travel through there anyway to get to the other part of the riding.

    The Chair: Okay.

    If we can go up higher to that other area of new beige, the area of the 400 kilometres of trees, are there any people living there?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: That's the area with 140 kilometres of road where there is nothing but trees, and then there's another 80 kilometres.

    The Chair: So does it matter if you have it?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: They gave me three communities at the bottom of it.

    Mr. Scott Reid: What will be accomplished if we go either way?

    The Chair: They probably don't want to have this huge rural piece.... If it doesn't accomplish anything either way, give it back to her, because she has all the resources and all the trees and all the agriculture, and then they can just keep the community. Does it matter either way?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: There's the point of how settlement took place. That area south of, say, Grand Rapids has ties to the south to Selkirk--Interlake and Winnipeg. There's nothing in there by way of communities, but the people from those communities I end up getting would probably have trapping in those areas, fishing, so it would be an area they are involved in.

    The Chair: Does anybody else have any questions?

    Mr. Reid.

    Mr. Scott Reid: I'm just taking a look at the map we've been given here, and it shows areas that have been divided up into little squares. I assume it is little townships, essentially, and then the rest, where it is not divided up, is unorganized. I'm guessing that it is a rough way of figuring out where the people actually live.

    The Chair: No, I think it's just for the grid.

    André, can you tell us what the grids are here?

    Mr. André Cyr: They're townships, ranges, and meridians. They're just a surveying system used in the prairies.

    The Chair: So if under Lake Winnipeg there is a separate box and then eight boxes that are joined together, does that mean people are living there?

    Mr. André Cyr: Not necessarily. It means it was surveyed, but--

    Mr. Scott Reid: I should have approached the question this way, because that wasn't really the point. That little bit down there--I don't know if you can see it there--I'm assuming is where the people actually are who are being transferred to your riding.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes, where they put the little red line. That's why I brought the other map, because it's easier to look at things on a provincial highway map.

    Mr. Scott Reid: I don't know anything about this area, but I'm guessing at the stickiness from the commission's point of view. This particular commission seems to be very concerned about relatively equal sizes, and on my map I wrote the populations underneath each of the different ridings, and what becomes evident is that of the rural ridings, the non-Winnipeg ridings, in Manitoba Churchill is the smallest in population, Selkirk--Interlake is the largest, and Provencher and Dauphin--Swan River are between the two of them. With this area here where the people are that's coming out of Selkirk--Interlake and into your riding, is there any connection between there and the Dauphin--Swan River area? Is there a bridge anywhere where people can go back and forth? Maybe it would make sense to move it into Dauphin--Swan River.

¼  (1830)  

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: There are roads there, but there's no question that their ties would be to the Selkirk--Interlake area more than others.

    The Chair: Mr. Reid, you weren't here the other day, but we have the potential to move the lines and get the population changes. That's why André is here. So if you could change the riding the way Ms. Desjarlais would like, we could see what the changes are. Down here you see the population totals, the target population, and the deviation. So Churchill is minus 5.5% of the population target.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Do we know what the population is according to this new recommendation? Is it in the new book?

    The Chair: It is it right there: 5,090.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Because we have more than half the first nations in the province in Churchill, people are very much aware that aboriginal populations are the largest growing populations in the province. It's hard to bring it to bear in this, but there are already great questions about the census results in the first nations communities, because first nations tend not to participate in the census. So although these figures are there, and I can't argue these figures, I can tell you that they're not accurate. I know for a fact that in the larger first nations they're out to the tune of almost 1,000. Even in a small community it was out by over 20 in the Statistics Canada results, a little community that only has about 20 houses; when we did a door-to-door in July, it was out 26 people from the Statistics Canada figure. As we look forward to the increases in the population in the riding, we must realize that first nations tend not to participate in the census, so the numbers are not accurate. Everyone can say it's their own fault, but the bottom line is that they're not extremely accurate. Instead of being the minus 5.49% Churchill would have with the changes, I was suggesting that it would be minus 8.4%. I don't know if that's what your figures come out to, but that's what I had.

    Mr. André Cyr: In the greenish area on the screen there's a total population of 1,800. So that area you wish to remove and put in Selkirk--Interlake? I can do that right now, but how far should I go?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: If you left it at Grand Rapids, that would be lovely.

    The Chair: I think your main point is not to get too hung up on the population numbers, because they may not be very accurate, but if you could just redraw the map on the computer with him, we'd know what we're talking about.

    It's a good thing that we all have a lot of patience, because this is a very new process for all of us and it's hard to understand all the--

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: When you've got the names up on the map, it's a lot easier to figure out where the lines should go.

    The Chair: I don't know if you heard, but I've asked that for New Brunswick and Ontario and Quebec, when we get to them, we have one of these maps at each of our desks, so that we know what we're talking about. When someone refers to a community it would be helpful to know where we're talking about.

    Mr. Godin.

¼  (1835)  

    Mr. Yvon Godin: On the point about the map, why couldn't there be one transfer you could put on the projector, so we could all see it? The person who makes the presentation could go through what happens. It's pretty tough to keep track of.

    The Chair: If we have this and this and a highway map, I think it will get easier.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: I don't think so, but--

    The Chair: Well, we hope it will.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: But the solution I gave is this. If you were to take the map and get a colour photocopy, you could just bring the projector and throw it on that. Then the person who makes the presentation can go there and show it. Even if people have the map, they could see it. It's the explanation that's not easy.

    Mr. James Robertson: As long as they advise the clerk in advance, he can have the equipment available.

    The Chair: Can we check to see if there's already such a mapping available?

    Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: On the original Internet site, when the first changes came on, you had the option of going in to see the existing territory, and then you would click on whatever note there was and see in a shaded area what the changes were. They did this for the original recommendations, and I don't know if it's available for these, but it was very easy to understand what changes were being made. It was overlapping.

    The Chair: That's a good point. We also would need the existing map, because this is only what they originally proposed and what they finally proposed. So we need the third one.

    Mr. Cyr.

    Mr. André Cyr: I will move these southern areas to the electoral district of Selkirk--Interlake. So we will move a couple of thousand population from Churchill to Selkirk--Interlake.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: That's not adding back in Pine Falls-Powerview.

    The Chair: Which you wanted to keep back. It would make sense in terms of community interest to keep it back.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Exactly.

    The Chair: No one wants to be on the record as saying they tried to get rid of certain constituents, but it's not actually what we're talking about, it's just trying to make it more serviceable for them.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I had an office in that area, because it made it possible to service that whole side, but there's no question that there's a community of interest with Selkirk--Interlake.

    Mr. André Cyr: So Churchill is now minus 8%?

    The Chair: Minus 8.2%, whereas Selkirk--Interlake is plus 8.2%.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: What I'm really asking is that the consideration that ridings can have a 25% variance be allowed for in the Churchill riding. I'm not even suggesting that it have 25%, I'm asking that if you give a variance of even 9% or 10%, that's still being reasonable, considering the area that has to be covered. Also, those other three communities don't have airports, so it's not as if you could do a quick trip in there and cover more time. You have to cover that additional 200 kilometres by road.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: The other alternative is to fly into Winnipeg and drive up.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: That's what I'm saying. It's 200 kilometres no matter how you look at it.

    The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: I can certainly sympathize with Bev. She has one of the largest constituencies of any of us. However, we don't have the member from Selkirk--Interlake here, and the member I don't think made a presentation.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I spoke to the member from Selkirk--Interlake, so I have no problem stating that he actually agreed with me on those areas. He made a proposal as well.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: To the commission?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes. I didn't ask to see it, but he told me he made a proposal to the commission stating much the same thing in regard to that area, that it had more ties to the Selkirk--Interlake area. I don't know if that's available or not.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you think there would no objection from the sitting member?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: He understands the community of interest between Victoria Beach and Selkirk--Interlake, and there's understanding with the Provencher member that Pine Falls and Powerview want to be part of Provencher.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: He also wouldn't have a problem with taking back those territories he currently has going up the west side of the lake there?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I'm just giving you the indication that he told me he agreed.

    Mr. André Cyr: I have transcripts here. Would you know in what city he appeared?

¼  (1840)  

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: They didn't go out to Selkirk, did they? They wouldn't travel into the Churchill riding, though I specifically asked for that.

    The Chair: They did Winnipeg, Portage la Prairie, Brandon, Steinbach, and Winnipeg again. It's on page 2 of the book.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I distinctly requested that they go at some point into the riding.

    The Chair: The members are who?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Mr. Hilstrom is Selkirk--Interlake, Mr. Toews is Provencher, Mr. Mark is Dauphin--Swan River.

    The Chair: Ms. Desjarlais, where is Pine Falls-Powerview? Is that by Great Falls?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Just slightly north of Great Falls. Great Falls is still in the riding as well.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: There's Pine Falls, and there's Great Falls. This area over here that includes Bissett stays in the riding. To get there, you have to go into these communities and take this road up and over.

    The Chair: This is going to be so simple, isn't it, folks?

    That's something we can check with the two members, though maybe not right this minute.

    Mr. Cyr.

    Mr. André Cyr: Do you know if he appeared himself or somebody appeared on his behalf?

    The Chair: We'll find out. We must be able to find out.

    Mr. James Robertson: The names do not appear on the list of the transcript. It's possible they made written submissions to the commission.

    The Chair: This administrative stuff is complicated for you guys, but if we can sort this out now, it will be good, because it will be the same answers for all the different provinces. Are we going to have a list of who made written submissions, or do we just have the verbal ones?

    Mr. André Cyr: I can obtain all of the submissions, but right now I only brought the oral ones.

    The Chair: So maybe in a case like this, as we're going to get them in different places, where one person appears and the other person doesn't, we can ask for them afterwards and figure out where we're at . If you start downloading everything, it's going to get really complicated.

    Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Do we have figures for after the changes? Because it does not only affect Churchill, it also affects Selkirk--Interlake.

    The Chair: Minus 8.2% for Churchill, and plus 8.2%, versus 5.5%.

    Mr. André Cyr: I haven't made any changes in the southeast of the province.

    The Chair: Oh, to the Provencher stuff.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: That's reflecting what the other two prefer to see happen as well

    The Chair: Let's be clear, then. Provencher would make it less than minus 8.2%. Provencher right now is 2.4% above, so it would probably become roughly equal, or maybe a minus, right?

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: I think Bev was saying that it's better served by having that portion of Victoria Beach go into Selkirk--Interlake and by having the communities in Provencher. So Bev's okay with that one. It's just the population that's really skewed now.

    The Chair: But it might not become immediately minus. It might not be as bad as 8.2% if you add in a bit that is currently in Provencher.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: There's no question that Pine Falls and Powerview and Sagkeeng have a community of interest. I'll tell you what's tough. We tried to get away from saying this, but Sagkeeng is a first nation, Pine Falls and Powerview are the white communities. You literally are splitting them down the road. They literally are down the road from each other. It's not as if you have a stretch of highway in-between such as I would be getting up in Grand Rapids. There's nothing. Pine Falls is here, Sagkeeng is here, and they're being split now, one going into Provencher and one staying in Churchill. They have a community of interest, because Tembec Pulp and Paper is on the reserve land.

¼  (1845)  

    The Chair: So you're saying keep it together and give them to--who?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Churchill.

    The Chair: Churchill, okay.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: It might not be exactly what they want, but they would have a hard time arguing that they haven't had representation.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: The community of Pine Falls has a stronger community of interest with the Provencher constituency.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: They would have a community of interest in both places.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: But Bev, let's be honest--

    The Chair: Where do they go shopping?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Winnipeg or Pine Falls.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Does anyone have any other questions?

    Jamie.

    Mr. James Robertson: I'm just taking that and putting it back in Churchill to see what the effect would be.

    The Chair: It's minus 4.5% now. It actually makes it less of a discrepancy.

    André

    Mr. André Cyr: That's only taking the ones in Provencher. I have not taken the ones--

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: The Victoria Beach area is an area that's off, you have to go down a different stretch of the road to get there, whereas Pine Falls-Powerview you have to go through no matter what.

    The Chair: You're suggesting Victoria Beach go where?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Selkirk--Interlake.

    The Chair: Selkirk, okay.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: By the way, Victoria Beach is a summer community.

    The Chair: So everybody from Winnipeg goes there.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: Exactly. It's a summer community.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Senator Carstairs is in my riding in Victoria Beach. Mr. Praznik is in my riding in Victoria Beach.

    The Chair: I think you have several other senators too, Janis Johnson--

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: No, she's in Selkirk--Interlake.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: But the community of interest for that, without question, is Selkirk--Interlake, not Churchill.

    The Chair: But currently it is in your riding.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes.

    The Chair: But it could be in Selkirk.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: It could be.

    The Chair: Are you asking to keep it, or would you agree that it could stay in Selkirk?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: In Selkirk--Interlake.

    The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Did you give this presentation at the hearing the same way as we're hearing it from you?

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I sent them a written submission. As said, they only met in certain places, and I, quite frankly, wasn't convinced that my going would have made a difference. I tried to get them to appear in the Churchill riding. I sent in the submission, and quite frankly, I got a not very pleasant letter back from the commissioner implying that it was just as far for people in Churchill to travel to a meeting down here as it was for someone to have to travel to Grahamdale, which was still not in the riding. So it was not a very pleasant letter, and I thought there was absolutely no point in my appearing at that time. Obviously, there is no understanding of what I'm dealing with here.

    In the commission's final report there was a comment that the member of Parliament for Churchill pointed out transportation difficulties and that she musn't realize that other members have “substantially alleviated this problem by opening constituency sub-offices.” I would suggest that opening three full-time constituency offices isn't creating sub-offices, it's making every attempt to meet the needs of the riding. I still believe strongly it's just going to make it that much tougher for any member of Parliament to give equal and fair representation to all the constituents.

    The Chair: Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Where did you hear that the commission said they wanted to get as close as possible to the--

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: It's right in the report. There is a statutory report that says you can have a 25% variance, there's been a court ruling. You can have the 25% variance to recognize the challenges of larger ridings.

¼  (1850)  

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Just for your information, in New Brunswick they are up to 14% difference in the last report they gave, so 8% is very small.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I would maintain that Mr. Guy St-Julien, who has Abitibi in Quebec, and I--or whatever members of Parliament represent the ridings--have the toughest challenges, because we not only have these huge areas, we have a large number of communities. In Nunavut you don't have 70-some communities you have to travel to. So it just makes it that much tougher.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: The difference is that Mr. St-Julien wrote 52 letters to the commission.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Each commission operates differently, from province to province, so I'm told.

    The Chair: No one else has any questions?

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Those are the last figures, are they?

    The Chair: These are the last figures.

    Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: The people at the bottom here, when you look at it, have to go not by road to get from Churchill. Where you have a community of interest more with Selkirk--Interlake, it just makes more sense. That's why they put in the 25%. To me, that's the simple argument.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Now we go to Ms. Neville, who has a relatively minor problem by comparison.

    Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I've brought some rough maps, if you need them. My riding is going to have a very significant boundary change, but that's not what I'm here to speak to. I'm here to speak to the proposed name change of my riding. My riding is currently called Winnipeg South Centre, and the proposed name is River Heights--Fort Garry. The Fort Garry part of the riding is a new addition, a very welcome addition, but the name River Heights--Fort Garry includes two significant portions of the riding, but excludes several very distinct parts of the riding, notably Tuxedo, Fort Rouge, Osborne, and the Osborne area is divided into two distinct areas. My request is that the name remain as it is, Winnipeg South Centre. I don't like a name that only defines the riding by two distinct neighbourhoods and leaves out a whole bunch.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Ms. Neville, is all of River Heights and all of Fort Garry within the riding?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Yes.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mr. Godin, and then Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: When there were hearings with the commission, did any of the people from the riding go and object to the change of name?

    Ms. Anita Neville: None I am aware of. There was an item in the press on my objection to the name change, and I had several comments saying, well done, but I'm not aware of whether members of the community went to it. I think, for the most part, it's not on their radar.

    The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Were the other ridings named Winnipeg North, Winnipeg Centre, and Winnipeg South before?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Yes.

¼  (1855)  

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: They all existed as such, plus yours, which was Winnipeg South Centre. Has there ever been any confusion caused by these names?

    Ms. Anita Neville: I'm often introduced as the member of Parliament from Winnipeg South, which I always correct.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: So this way, you wouldn't have to correct it.

    Ms. Anita Neville: That is true, but I just don't like it. I brought a map of the riding, and let me just hold it up for you. The shaded area is the whole riding. This is River Heights, this is Fort Garry, and all of this is also in the riding. This is Tuxedo, which is a very distinct, definable community in Winnipeg. This is the Osborne area, which encompasses a community called Fort Rouge, Crescentwood, the Osborne Village. It's all of this piece, so it doesn't define the riding. If you wanted to take away the Winnipeg South Centre name, you would call it River Heights--Fort Garry--Tuxedo--Osborne, and that would include most of it. But it really excludes two significant, definable parts of the riding, so I'm asking that it just be left at Winnipeg South Centre. If there is any confusion, it's minimal.

    The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

    You made a presentation to the commission?

    Ms. Anita Neville: I had a member of my staff do it on my behalf.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: And you suggested the same thing. What's their rationale?

    Ms. Anita Neville: I don't know.

    The Chair: Page 6.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: I know Winnipeg South Centre, and it's been there forever. I understand it, I know it, and I can appreciate the desire for it to remain the same. I should also tell you that there are other constituencies that have only two elements in their name, Brandon--Souris, for example, but have many other communities. You couldn't possibly list the six or seven communities that are necessary. For that matter, there are other communities going away from that to a generic name, as opposed to having names listed, as we have. That's what you want to do, go back to the generic type of name.

    Ms. Anita Neville: Yes, just keep it as it is.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: If this recommendation goes forward and it stays River Heights--Fort Garry, would you consider some changes at a later date to expand it to include those other communities you talked about?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Do I have that option?

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: Now you don't, but perhaps, with a private members bill. There is one sitting in front of the Senate right now about name changes. Sometime down the road it could happen. Would you consider putting Tuxedo and Osborne Village and all of that in?

    Ms. Anita Neville: I would certainly say Osborne, not Osborne Village. It would be a very cumbersome name, and I think, at some level, a little silly. I'm hoping this committee will listen to me. Look at the map, and it is Winnipeg South Centre, it's known as Winnipeg South Centre, it has a tradition, a history as Winnipeg South Centre. My predecessor put it on the map as Winnipeg South Centre. The old Fort Garry that's coming in was, I think, once part of Winnipeg South Centre, though I can't say for certain. Stay with the history, stay with the tradition, be inclusive. To my mind, it's just tinkering with something that's not broken.

    The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is it a known area within Winnipeg? If I go to the airport and say I'm looking for Winnipeg South Centre--

    Ms. Anita Neville: It's a political definition.

½  (1900)  

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay.

    Ms. Anita Neville: If you asked for River Heights, they would know where. If you asked for Osborne, they would say, yes, or Tuxedo. Not within Tuxedo as much, but within the Osborne area there are sub-communities as well that are all excluded. They are quite clearly defined communities.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: And the same thing applies for Winnipeg North or Winnipeg Centre? They've all different communities within, but they're not known by Mr. and Mrs. Next-Door Neighbour as such areas in the city of Winnipeg?

    Ms. Anita Neville: No, but now that you mention it, they could have easily gone to Winnipeg North and renamed it. I don't know why they didn't, but they could have chosen to name that Winnipeg--North Main or Winnipeg--McPhillips, which would again include some parts and exclude other parts. But Winnipeg South Centre is a historical, traditional political entity and inclusive of all communities.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

    The Chair: I have one question, and then I'll turn to Mr. Godin.

    All of Tuxedo and all of Osborne are in Winnipeg South Centre?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Yes.

    The Chair: And is the new Winnipeg South Centre that much different from the current Winnipeg South Centre?

    Ms. Anita Neville: The whole Fort Garry piece is coming back into Winnipeg South Centre. It was once part of the area that was represented by my predecessor. A piece of the downtown has gone into Winnipeg Centre, which we call the West Broadway area.

    The Chair: Is there some other name that would work, like Downtown Winnipeg? I don't know.

    Ms. Anita Neville: No, because it's not downtown Winnipeg. We had a little game in the office trying to come up with alternatives, and to be inclusive, Winnipeg South Centre is what works.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: You said right at the beginning that there were many changes, but you're not here to argue about those changes.

    Ms. Anita Neville: I'm not here to argue about those changes.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: The changes they've made, are they still part of Winnipeg South Centre?

    Ms. Anita Neville: I lose a piece of what is currently Winnipeg South Centre.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: You lose, but you don't get anything?

    Ms. Anita Neville: The city is growing south. That's why the boundaries have been redefined. A big chunk of Winnipeg South has come into my riding in anticipation of considerable further growth in Winnipeg South.

    The Chair: Really?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Yes.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: I think you were elected in 2000.

    Ms. Anita Neville: Right.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: You said nobody made a presentation, but has anyone come into your office complaining about the name?

    Ms. Anita Neville: None that I am aware of, but I've certainly had comments in my movement around the community.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: What comments?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Negative comments, that it leaves out Tuxedo and the Osborne area.

    The Chair: I think the commission's statement, “We know that there is not universal approval for all of our conclusions”, means they've heard a lot of controversy.

    Ms. Anita Neville: There is no obvious other name that's inclusive of the whole thing. We tried to see if there was some historical name that would define the area and have a natural tie-in. We've been quite creative in trying to come up with an alternative. My biggest objection to it is that it excludes a very significant part of the population.

½  (1905)  

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mr. Cyr, then Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. André Cyr: The area that was gained, which is highlighted in yellow on the screen over here at the right side, has a population of roughly 12,000.

    Ms. Anita Neville: I'm not contesting the boundaries at all.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is that the Fort Garry area that has been added? That was my question. It's 12,000 over how much now?

    Ms. Anita Neville: Some 77,000. If I can just add something to that, a piece of the Osborne area called Osborne Village is an area of significant high-rises, which I am told is one of the largest concentrations of population in an urban setting in Canada, and that's excluded in the name. Perhaps, Mr. Cyr, you could comment on that.

    Mr. André Cyr: I think that's the area I've highlighted in yellow.

    Ms. Anita Neville: No, it's the area up further.

    The Chair: Right there?

    Ms. Anita Neville: It would be in that area, right.

    The Chair: That's 12,000 right there.

    Ms. Anita Neville: That's 12,000, yes. In the bad weather that's where I go.

    The Chair: Just to clarify, since we won't be able to do this when we get to all the Ontario and Quebec ones that are going to come forward, it would seem that probably, because they've just rejoined Fort Garry with South Centre, they were trying to give a little prestige to Fort Garry and wanted to incorporate the name.

    Ms. Anita Neville: Probably.

    The Chair: But Fort Garry used to be part of South Centre.

    Ms. Anita Neville: I think so.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: In fairness to Anita, Fort Garry extends further than what is just incorporated in your riding.

    Ms. Anita Neville: It's old Fort Garry that I get.

    The Chair: There is another?

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: If you look at Fort Garry, it extends beyond the boundaries of Winnipeg South Centre.

    Ms. Anita Neville: That's right. Thank you.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: So, Anita, there's a good argument for you, because all of Fort Garry has not been included.

    The Chair: Well, there's our hanging point.

    Ms. Neville, thank you very much for appearing before us. Everyone's always trying to add things to the name of my riding.

    We have one more person from Manitoba, colleagues, Mr. Harvard, who has a request, so we are not in a position to finalize our report on Manitoba, but once Ms. Neville leaves the room, we could complete our deliberations on what we have heard so far. So I'll pause so we can go in camera.

    [Proceedings continue in camera]