LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, February 26, 2003

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1535

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Ms. Rosaline Frith (Director General, Integration, Citizenship and Immigration Canada; Co-chair, Citizenship and Immigration Canada - Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee)

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1540

Mr. Marc Arnal (Co-Chair for the Francophone minority communities, Citizenship and Immigration Canada - Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee)

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1545

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1550

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1555

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

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1600

M. Marc Arnal

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1605

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.)

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mme Rosaline Frith

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

M. Marc Arnal

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1610

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

M. Marc Arnal

Mr. Yvon Godin

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1615

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Marc Arnal

The Chair

M. Marc Arnal

Mr. Yvon Godin

M. Marc Arnal

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

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1620

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

M. Marc Arnal

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1625

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Rosaline Frith

M. Marc Arnal

The Chair

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1630

Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau, Lib.)

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Mark Assad

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Mark Assad

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1635

Ms. Rosaline Frith

M. Marc Arnal

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Rosaline Frith

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1640

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Rosaline Frith

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1645

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Rosaline Frith

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1650

M. Marc Arnal

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

M. Marc Arnal

The Chair

º

1655

M. Marc Arnal

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

Mr. Marc Arnal

The Chair

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

M. Marc Arnal

The Chair

»

1700

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

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NUMBER 013

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, February 26, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[Translation]

    The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Today we will hear from the Co-Chairs of the Citizenship and Immigration Canada--Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee, Ms. Rosaline Frith, who visited us at the start of the week and is now back, and Mr. Arnal.

    This is the fourth day of hearings on the entire notion of immigration. We then intend to produce a report on the immigration question. All that is being done is in relation to section 41. I don't believe I have to tell you that; you know it better than we do. We would like you to bring us up to date on what you are preparing and to tell us whether there are any ways in which we can help you.

    Ms. Frith, you know the procedure. Mr. Arnal, it's very simple: we ask you to make a presentation, within the time limit, although we are a bit flexible, and we then go on to the period when questions are asked alternately by opposition and government members, although here we don't often draw that distinction. So, if there are no questions, we'll begin.

    Ms. Frith, you have the floor.

    Ms. Rosaline Frith (Director General, Integration, Citizenship and Immigration Canada; Co-chair, Citizenship and Immigration Canada - Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It is a pleasure to have an opportunity to speak to you today about what I consider to be an exciting challenge: how to help the official language minority communities increase the number of immigrants within those communities. This challenge will require the cooperation of a number of federal, provincial and territorial governments, as well as the support of the Francophone communities.

    First, I will profile immigration to Canada. As the minister emphasized on Monday, immigration is important for Canada: it will account for all net labour force growth by 2011 to 2016 and for all net population growth by 2026-2031.

    About 75 percent of immigrants settle in the large urban areas of Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto, and this phenomenon is not unique to immigrants. Canadians are drawn to large cities from secondary and rural centres to capitalize on opportunities.

    Since 1999, there has been an increase in Canada in the number of newcomers who speak French, from 9,549 persons in 1999 to 11,315 in 2001. Of that number, 1,809 have settled outside Quebec. To date, the power of attraction of the Francophone minority communities has been limited. Outside Quebec, Francophones accounted for only 4.4 percent of the population in 2001, less than one million persons. In the last five years, the Francophone population outside Quebec has risen by only 10,000 persons, most from Quebec.

    The challenges facing the department and the communities in attracting, integrating and retaining Francophone immigrants are significant. Francophone immigrants have very little information on the socio-economic situation of Francophone minority communities prior to their arrival in Canada. To access the labour market, they need a standard process for recognizing their credentials and experience acquired outside Canada. Qualified immigrants must be able to hold a regulated or accredited occupation. In addition, with few exceptions, their integration into the Francophone minority will require them to learn English.

    The attitudes of the public and employers are important for promoting the inclusion and rapid integration of newcomers in the community and in the economy.

    The fact that the local community and employers lack knowledge about newcomers often results in rejection or fear of the unknown. Francophone immigrants need a job, access to services in French and a warm welcome.

    As the minister noted, the communities and the federal, provincial and territorial governments must work together to create an environment favourable to immigration. The department cannot succeed on its own. Strong commitment from the communities will be required to generate the necessary conditions: employment, welcoming communities and so on.

    In March 2002, Minister Coderre established a steering committee in partnership with the Francophone minority communities. The community has met three times since it was established. It consists of representatives of the department's programs and regions, representatives of the communities of Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta and British Columbia and representatives of other federal departments such as Canadian Heritage and Human Resources Development Canada, and the provincial governments.

For example, representatives of the provinces of Manitoba, New Brunswick, British Columbia and Ontario attended the steering committee's third meeting in January.

    The committee's mandate is to sensitize employees, service suppliers and clients in and outside Canada to the potential of the minority Francophone communities, to sensitize the communities to immigration-related issues, to develop community capacity to welcome and integrate newcomers, and to ensure liaison between communities and the department and with the other departments and provinces.

    We, the department, the communities and other partners have already undertaken a number of projects under the heading of the IPOLC, the Interdepartmental Partnership with Official Languages Communities, which include a study on minority Francophone communities' capacity to welcome minority Francophones. We are currently examining various models for improving institutional services and enhancing ties between immigrants and the local Francophone communities. Within the next few months, we hope to have a concrete action plan that will reflect our short- and longer-term actions.

    Marc.

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    Mr. Marc Arnal (Co-Chair for the Francophone minority communities, Citizenship and Immigration Canada - Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee): Mr. Bélanger, ladies and gentlemen committee members, I will elaborate on what Rosaline has just told you.

    Nearly one year ago, the President of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, Mr. Georges Arès, appeared before you to stress the crucial importance of immigration for Francophone minority communities and to announce the establishment of the steering committee, the name of which I will spare you.

    I'm pleased to be able to tell you that the year that has just passed brought significant progress, as Ms. Frith just emphasized. I will begin by saying that we greatly appreciate Mr. Coderre's commitment to this issue as well as the excellent cooperation received from Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and, in this instance, of its co-chair, Ms. Frith. As she noted, a true partnership has been established. We hope that this partnership will soon include other departments active in economic areas, as well as the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and other provinces. Some have already expressed an interest in joining us.

    We are working closely with the Commissioner of Official Languages, Ms. Dyane Adam, who has appointed a member of her staff, Mr. Carsten Quell, who is very much appreciated, to sit on our committee. We also had the opportunity to attend the ceremony in which he was sworn in as a Canadian citizen. Ms. Adam has played such an effective role with respect to the changes to the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, and the research done by her Office continues to be very useful to our discussions. Ms. Adam has repeatedly demonstrated that this issue is very important to her. It must also be said that her support is very important to us.

    It goes without saying that the commitment of Francophone minority community organizations is also crucial to the success of our initiative. If the Committee had commenced its work as recently as three years ago, I doubt that it would have succeeded, given the lack of preparation on the part of our communities for either a dialogue between cultures or the reception of Francophone immigrants. Francophones have come a long way since then, however, The Dialogue tour organized by the FCFA, whose task force I served on from 1999 to 2001, provided us with an opportunity to carefully consider the future of Francophone and Acadian communities, more specifically their relationship with other components of Canadian society, including ethnocultural communities.

    Needless to say, immigration received considerable attention during the tour. In its report, entitled Parlons-nous!, our task force made a number of recommendations concerning the reception and integration of immigrants and the need to consider the issue of identity. These recommendations were intended for the FCFA and its member associations and for governments. The current work of the Steering Committee could be described as the application of those recommendations.

    Since the start of the Dialogue initiative, Francophone groups active at the provincial and territorial levels have been working with Francophone ethnocultural communities in every part of Canada to facilitate the reception and integration of French-speaking newcomers. Allow me to give you a few examples.

    In Alberta, the province in which I live--and I would add somewhat jokingly that I'm a Franco-Manitoban in semi-exile--there have been four provincial consultations on Francophone immigration, the last of which was held on January 17. The Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta and the Multicultural Association have made a joint proposal for the establishment of a reception centre for Francophone immigrants in Edmonton to try to meet needs not being satisfied under the existing system.

    In Ontario, a comprehensive report was produced, after an extensive consultation, in the summer of 2002 by community members serving on the committee for that province. A second tour was undertaken in December 2002 to develop practices that would enable ethnocultural groups to better coordinate their activities with each other and with traditional Francophone groups. A number of projects are currently being developed in Toronto, Sudbury, Ottawa and London/Windsor areas with the joint efforts of the stakeholders. The CIC region--I want to add this to the text, for those who are following along--did an excellent job of interdepartmental and intergovernmental cooperation by creating an issue table involving the departments concerned.

    The Franco-Manitoban community has produced an action plan on the reception and integration of Francophone immigrants that sets ambitious goals for the future on the basis of a successful pilot project, which was moreover supported both by the province and CIC.

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The province's active participation proved to be a key factor in the success of that effort. In addition, the Société franco-manitobaine and its chief executive officer, Mr. Daniel Boucher, undertook a broad social action project through their project designed to expand the Francophone space.

    In New Brunswick, actions initiated by the Francophone and Acadian community already involve partners from various sectors. For example, the University of Moncton is trying to put in place a pilot project whereby foreign students will be able to gain work experience in Canada with Francophone employers. The government of New Brunswick has hired two officers to oversee the development of Francophone immigration in the province. The Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick plays a national leadership role in this issue through the salutary presence of its president, Mr. Rioux.

    Some associations have embraced a more inclusive view of the Francophone community in their province and have welcomed members of ethnocultural communities within their own democratic structures. The Association canadienne-française de l'Ontario and the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta, to name just two, have Francophones born outside Canada on their boards of directors.

    These initiatives have often been supported or even pioneered by community members serving on our Steering Committee. there is no doubt that the publication of our recent report on the capacity of Francophone minority communities to integrate newcomers will accelerate efforts to make the Canadian Francophone community more open and inclusive. In addition to being an effective instrument for policy development, the Steering Committee therefore acts as a veritable agent of change within our communities. This is nothing more or less than good old community development. The FCFA, for its part, is working energetically on the identity issue and is considering various initiatives to spur progress in the matter.

    As Ms. Frith has pointed out, immigration accounts for only a very small increase in the Francophone population outside Quebec, whereas it is the most significant factor in the increase of the Anglophone population. In formulating its recruitment and integration policy, Citizenship and Immigration Canada must consider the steady decrease in the proportion of Francophones, confirmed once again by figures released by Statistics Canada on the subject in December 2002. As indicated by Mr. Georges Arès when he spoke to you about this topic last year,

in view of the decrease in the proportion of the Francophone population throughout the country, it is essential that this group have the capacity to welcome and integrate immigrants with a knowledge of French.

    Mr. Arès recalled that Francophone immigrants outside Quebec represent only 1% of all immigrants who settle in the rest of Canada. In the coming years this percentage should rise to reflect, at the very least, our demographic representation (4.5%) without taking into account all the catching up we have to do.

    However, opening up Francophone minority communities to newcomers and to members of ethnocultural communities that have French as a common language offers advantages that extend well beyond an increase in demographic figures. It also makes it possible to obtain qualified workers and expertise in sectors such as health and education, which are crucial to the development of our communities; to secure greater recognition of our communities in the Francophone world; to discover new ways of doing things while respecting differences and greater cultural diversity; and to strengthen Francophone institutions in Canada, in particular by increasing the number of students attending French-language schools. Lastly, this openness will no doubt bring us closer to all Canadians with a knowledge of French.

    Minister Dion must therefore give high priority, in the official languages action plan that he will release March 12, to strengthening structures for receiving Francophone immigrants. This would be in keeping with the wishes of Francophone communities, which have themselves made immigration a priority at the municipal, provincial, territorial and national levels.

    The federal government's commitment to this initiative is evident in the spirit, if not the letter, of Part VII of the Official Languages Act, which states that the Government of Canada is committed to enhancing the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada and supporting and assisting their development.

    As indicated in the conclusions of the first phase of the FCFA study on the reception capacity of Francophone minority communities, this initiative must involve a three-fold approach.

    First, putting in place structures that enable immigrants to overcome linguistic barriers to their integration; this includes increased access to language training.

    Second, giving immigrants better access to the workplace; this includes improved recognition of skills and credentials acquired abroad.

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    Third, establishing effective French-language reception structures supported by institutions already in the community; this will ensure better French-language services to newcomers and increase opportunities for contact with the host community, thus increasing retention chances.

    Our initiative must take into account the dual challenge that we face in dealing with Francophone immigration. We must integrate newcomers in our French-speaking communities while helping them enter a workforce that in many cases operates essentially in English. Indeed, although figures released recently by Statistics Canada reveal that a majority of Francophones outside Quebec use their mother tongue regularly at work, the fact remains that a knowledge of English is necessary for most jobs. Newcomers, including immigrants who have already spent a few years in Quebec, must acquire language skills as quickly as possible after arriving in our communities.

    Furthermore, a very large number of Francophone immigrants come from developing countries, and often require integration programs tailored to their specific needs and requiring support over a longer period of time.

    Studies show that members of a visible minority, whether or not they are immigrants, continue to suffer from discrimination, and this automatically means fewer employment opportunities and lower earnings. Since Francophone immigrants are very often members of this class, recognition of credentials and targeted job creation strategies are of particular importance in their case. I would add that it is necessary to conduct, in Francophone and Acadian communities, a campaign to raise their awareness of ethnic and cultural diversity. I mentioned earlier that considerable work had been done in this connection, but additional efforts are necessary to ensure that Francophones from every part of the world who decide to participate in the life of our communities receive the best possible welcome and choose to stay and settle in those communities.

    It is also important that Francophone communities themselves take the trouble to identify their own workforce requirements that could be met through immigration. Citizenship and Immigration Canada is making considerable effort to ensure that federal-provincial immigration agreements contain a clause requiring that minority official-languages communities be consulted with respect to the selection of qualified immigrants.

    Assessing workforce requirements is precisely one of the aims of the second phase of the study to evaluate the capacity of French-language minority communities to integrate newcomers. This phase will examine immigrant reception structures in Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan and Northern Ontario, as well as data on the manner in which traditional Francophone communities perceive immigrants.

    As you can see, at this stage we have clearly identified the problems that need to be addressed. The most difficult task lies before us, however, and it involves the development of strategies that will enable us to reduce the considerable immigration deficit experienced by our communities for decades.

    The stakes are high for Francophone and Acadian communities. For this reason, I can tell you right now that our action plan contains some ambitious goals. We will not achieve those goals without the commitment of all the parties concerned, in particular Human Resources Development Canada, Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, regional economic development agencies, Heritage Canada, official languages and multiculturalism stakeholders, provincial and territorial governments and community organizations. I would add to that list the municipalities, for which a number of researchers see an expanded role in this question. We must be able to rely on the continued strong leadership of Minister Coderre and Ms. Frith, and on Ms. Adam's constructive support.

    Some investments will be necessary if we are to meet our targets. I hope that we have been able to demonstrate unequivocally today that these investments are necessary for the development of Francophone minority communities, and that our goals are consistent with our shared values with respect to multiculturalism, linguistic duality and openness to the world.

    I thank the committee members for their interest in this matter, which is of vital importance for the development of Francophone minority communities. We will be pleased to appear before you again to present the action plan that we are currently preparing, in the hope that by then resources and cooperation models will be available for its implementation.

    We are now ready to answer your questions, Mr. Bélanger.

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    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Arnal.

    I have noted your last comment, that you might perhaps be able to come back when the action plan is ready; we take note of that.

    Mr. Reid, seven minutes.

    Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to our guests.

    It seems to me there are two problems. In the real world, English is the most widely used language in the world, and, relatively speaking, there aren't a lot of potential immigrants who want to come here, to Canada. There are a limited number of Francophone countries in the world, and a limited number of persons who are prepared to leave their country of birth to come here to Canada. And I believe it's true that, among those who come here, the rate of assimilation into English is higher outside Quebec than for those who remain in the province of Quebec.

    It seems to me that, if we look for a way to increase the total number of Francophones in Canada over the long term, the most logical course to follow would not be to encourage Francophone immigrants to join the minority community in Ontario or Alberta, but to insist that they remain in Quebec, where the Anglophone population and Anglophone assimilating forces are the least strong. I see a problem, a contradiction, if you will, between the goal of creating a stronger minority population outside Quebec and the overall goal of having more Francophones in Canada.

    The other problem, in my view, is that, in the presentations by the various witnesses that have come before our committee, I haven't seen a very effective action plan for really slowing the rate of assimilation of those who settle in the other provinces, where it is almost always necessary to know how to speak English in order to function among the majority population. What is true in a region such as eastern Ontario is even truer in northern Alberta, southeast Manitoba and the remote regions of Quebec. Perhaps you have something to say on that subject. I believe it's a real problem.

    It's very important not to forget that, the groups that have been assimilated into the English language and which are groups of Anglophone extraction in Canada today, the first group is from Great Britain, the second from Germany and the third group is of Francophone origin. So it's not hard to understand how the Francophone community in Canada can be assimilated and lost.

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    M. Marc Arnal: Thank you, Mr. Reid. I feel the need to take a somewhat philosophical approach in answering your question. If you come to Edmonton, you will see that the majority in Edmonton is composed of Ukrainians. That's the largest population. Moreover, Laurence Decore, who was a great leader, had much to do with that in one of the books of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, and so on.

    You've raised many problems. Without wishing to seem naive, I nevertheless believe that major changes are taking place within our society, as a result of which trends will be somewhat reversed.

    When I was a boy in Manitoba, in the early 1950s, it was prohibited by law to teach French in our schools. I experienced that; it's not a story told by our grandfathers. Okay? Today, Manitoba is one of the most progressive provinces in advancing French and English. The psychological impact of having been outside the law was significant for our communities. The psychological impact of being a minority, still a problem for the majority society, was a burden, and I believe that has caused a kind of minority complex among us. Sometimes I read my daughter stories, such as The Ugly Duckling--because, when I was young, we didn't have books in French--and we very much saw ourselves like that. We saw ourselves as not fitting into the surrounding society.

    Today, if you listen to what Ms. Adam and others say, the nature of our society as it currently stands stems precisely from the dogged efforts of the Francophone populations of Quebec and outside Quebec to maintain linguistic duality. And it is from this basis of diversity that our society has ultimately expanded and acknowledged multiculturalism and essentially become a society. We are beginning to understand our privileged, special role within the federation.

    That won't solve our assimilation problems overnight, but it will enable us to project a much more positive image of La Francophonie for our children. It will also enable us to reach out to our Québécois cousins in a new vision of a Francophonie renewed at the national level. That's the first thing: we no longer have the same existence.

    The second thing is that you say that, in the real world, people should settle in Quebec because they won't be assimilated there. I would say to you that, in the real world in Alberta, there are a lot of immigrants who have left Quebec. They landed in Montreal or Quebec City and are now in Edmonton, Calgary or Fort McMurray. We have 200 or 300 Congolese families in Calgary and Edmonton that all transited through Quebec. The old Francophonie apparently turned in on itself and didn't make the effort to integrate them. The new Francophonie welcomes them with open arms and wants to integrate them into our communities, wants them to take a place, wants them to add to our wealth and diversity. That's the difference and that's the challenge of our project as well.

    As I said in my presentation, if this effort had been made in the context of five years ago, I would be much less optimistic than I am now. But today, a wind of renewal is blowing on La Francophonie outside Quebec, and you need only meet with the communities to realize that. And, like it or not, there is currently a major movement of French-speaking immigrants from Quebec to the other provinces, especially Alberta. There's also a significant movement of Europeans, French, among others, toward Vancouver, and there are not a lot of integration problems for French populations in Vancouver. As a result of all that, I tell you: in the real world, I believe that circumstances are such that we can now hope to succeed.

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    Will we reach our targets? We shall see. Are we going to make progress? Yes, sir.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Arnal. Mr. Reid, we'll come back to that.

    Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What you say is very interesting.

    Ms. Frith, in your presentation, you spoke about statistics, of course. You mentioned an increase in the number of French-speaking newcomers, 1,809 of whom settled outside Quebec. I imagine it would be dreaming in technicolour to think that those people settled only in Francophone communities.

    Do you have figures on that, or aren't they available?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: We don't have exact figures on where those persons settled, that is whether they settled in Francophone communities, but most of them went to Ontario, to Toronto. There are some in the Francophone communities in Toronto.

    You also have to take into account the fact that even more bilingual individuals have settled outside Quebec, across the country, in the various provinces. What we know is that most French-speaking persons, or Francophones or Francophiles, prefer to be in contact with Francophone communities, and that's where we put our efforts.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Yes, because a few years ago, I was at our embassy in France, and I attended interviews with persons wishing to settle in Canada. Among them were a young man and a young woman, both French, who had good English skills and who were not coming to Quebec. They both went to Vancouver, by chance.

    I said to myself that I hoped a group of Francophones would welcome them as soon as possible when they arrived.

    Mme Rosaline Frith: That's exactly the idea. We have already discussed the challenges that exist, and one of the challenges for which we have already taken measures is the challenge of putting those immigrants in touch with the Francophone communities as soon as possible. Even if we assist them with English-language training, which is important, the idea is to tell them that, immediately upon their arrival, there are Francophone communities, French schools and activities in French. We have to give them the necessary names and addresses. It was with that that we decided to start our work. Even before we have our action plan, things are already under way.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you very much.

    I still have a little time. Mr. Arnal, you say that, in your action plan, you were going to have to deal with a number of departments, a number of federal resources. Based on your experience to date, are there any more recalcitrant departments, or are those people generally quite understanding?

    M. Marc Arnal: It would probably be an exaggeration if I told you that they all throw themselves at us with their cheque book in hand.

    However, I would say that, to date, I have no reason to suspect anyone of bad faith. Representatives of the HRDC committee came to see us after the meetings and told us that we would soon have to go meet their senior management committee. Multiculturalism representatives told us that, at the Department of Canadian Heritage, there was a little house cleaning to be done in the official languages and multiculturalism programs, in the way those two programs interact.

    Some provinces, such as New Brunswick and Manitoba, have played very positive roles.

    One department that has not yet come to the table and that we would like to see soon is the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. We hope they will be at the next meeting; otherwise, we'll invite them again. If they aren't there, we'll consider other means.

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    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you very much, for the moment.

    The Chair: Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to welcome you.

    When you consider the number of Francophone immigrants who come to Canada, do you consider only those who come to Canada, or, in your action plan, do you consider the places they can come to in Canada, such as New Brunswick? We can't even keep our own Francophones in New Brunswick. We have to start by working to keep our own at home since we can't even keep them, because of the shortage of jobs.

    So what miracle formula can you suggest in your action plan to induce immigrants to come here and who obviously don't all want to be taxi drivers, but want a job? How could we suggest that you have a formula in your action plan for encouraging them to come to places like New Brunswick, to Caraquet, to Tracadie or other truly Francophone regions?

    M. Marc Arnal: I think that's a good question, and if you imagine that our action plan will make a number of immigrants appear in Tracadie overnight, I beg you to lose your illusions.

    What we will aim at initially are certain centres where we have greater chances of success, such as Manitoba, where there is a good-sized population pool and promising geographic demographics as well. There are one or two communities which are outside the nucleus, but the Francophone community is generally quite concentrated and economic development quite advanced. There are business incubators and so on. Things are quite good in that area. We're going to target Manitoba. We're also going to target Alberta because, like it or not, Alberta has a population of immigrants, and if we don't want to lose them...

    One of our committee's strategic objectives is regionalization. By regionalization, we first mean everything outside Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal.

    Second--and that's why we are conducting Phase 2 of the study--we want to explore places like Northern Ontario and Prince Edward Island, which are perhaps less obvious. There's also the region of St. Mary's Bay, in Nova Scotia, for example, and possibly your home. I don't know what the solutions will be, but we're going to find some.

    In New Brunswick right now, we are working mainly with the University of Moncton. There is a large pool of foreign students attending the University of Moncton, and what we're going to do is to create conditions that will enable those people to gain work experience in a Canadian environment in order to make it easier for them to integrate.

    Of course, there is always an ethical problem in that: are we going to increase our numbers by stealing from other countries, in particular developing countries, as is often the case? But that's for another day, another moment.

    You must understand, Mr. Godin, that our strategy won't lead us to Tracadie in the short term, but I would say to you that, if ever anyone chose to settle in Tracadie, what we want is for that person to be welcomed, to be integrated into the community in its specificity. That's what we're aiming for. We'll look at going further in the longer term.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: So that means that the Francophone regions, apart from the major centres in Canada, don't really have much of a chance of seeing results in the near future. In fact, that's more a dream than anything else. We have to continue working on that.

    In the studies you are conducting or in the information you have, has anything been done to obtain data on the embassies in the country where French is spoken or where there is French documentation? Personally, I went to Yugoslavia, for example. I also went to Romania, where there are a lot of Francophones. I went to Ireland; in the Dublin area, there were Francophones, but I don't think they want to move here now, especially since the unemployment rate is 4.5 percent. But in the countries I visited, not much French is spoken in the embassies. When you telephone the embassies in the world, there aren't a lot where French is spoken.

    So are there any recommendations in your business plan suggesting, for example, that the government change its attitude regarding employment so that there can be that feeling of going and getting Francophones who come to our country?

º  (1615)  

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: We've already started talks with our colleagues across the country to ensure as far as possible that all our products, all our information on Francophone communities are available in French. That's a challenge because, in some cases, we don't even have room to show the documents. So we're doing lots...

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Pardon me, I don't mean to interrupt, but you're talking about having documentation from our country. Is that in Canadian embassies elsewhere?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: Yes. We're trying to place information in one way or another, but it's likely that most of the information will be available on the Internet, on the Web sites. That's the simplest way to ensure everything is there. We may try to work in cooperation with the communities to create cultural profiles on those communities in order to share them outside Canada. So there are a number of different things that we can do to ensure that potential immigrants become aware of the Francophone communities outside Quebec.

    But you asked a question simply on the interaction with officers in our embassies. There is very little interaction between officers and immigrants. That's not normally the way we deal with potential immigrants. We don't conduct consultations or other things like that with individuals. We only conduct interviews in cases where they are really necessary. So we have to think of other ways of sharing information. That's going to be a challenge.

    We've already discussed the possibility of recommending in our action plan that we take on that challenge.

    Mr. Marc Arnal: There's something else, Mr. Godin, if you will allow me to speak briefly.

    The Chair: Briefly, because we have very little time left.

    M. Marc Arnal: There is also misinformation in certain countries to the effect that Canada is a bilingual country from sea to sea. There are people arriving in Edmonton who expect to speak French in the street. Unless they are in the Bonnie Doon area, I wish them good luck.

    Some members of our committee are from other countries. We have a Cameroon woman who picked up her Cameroon identification papers, went to the embassy and said she wanted to go to Canada. If you want to have a laugh, invite her at some point; she'll tell you her experience. There is work to be done, an enormous amount of work.

    It's not easy either to get Internet access in Cameroon. We have to find suitable ways of passing on information.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: But if we have a bilingual country, if we have a country where there are two official languages, wouldn't it be normal for the embassies everywhere in the world to use both languages? I'm sure that that's done elsewhere, but, in your action plan, wouldn't it be good to state that the government should emphasize the use of both languages in the embassies in order to promote them?

    M. Marc Arnal: I'm quickly taking notes.

    The Chair: I'm taking notes too, and I'll have a suggestion to make at the end of the meeting. Perhaps we could have...

    An hon. member: File a complaint.

    The Chairman: No, no, before filing a complaint, perhaps we could summon the Department of Foreign Affairs in the context of our discussions. In any case, we'll come back to that.

    Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Ms. Frith, Mr. Arnal, I have three questions, on credentials, French-language services and productivity. I'll start with productivity.

    In my constituency, I see many English-language newcomers who are merchants, and they deal a lot with their own country, which does a great deal to boost our country's productivity and GNP because they sell, they buy and they trade with their own country. I find that really interesting, and that does a lot to help our economic situation. These are English-speaking people. I congratulate them.

    Are there French-speaking people or people from countries where French is spoken who are merchants or entrepreneurs and who, once they are here, deal with their own country and so help this country, their Francophone or Francophile community in their region? Do you have any figures on that?

º  (1620)  

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: We have no specific data on what people do after they arrive in Canada. We do have data on the number of persons by category. So I can always go and look for data on the number of persons from a certain country who have come to Canada as skilled workers in the context of family reunification or as refugees. I can make those distinctions, but it would be really hard to say what percentage of them are merchants or entrepreneurs who maintain ties with their own countries.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Have you done any research in that area?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I can always try to see if we have more information, yes.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: During the Christmas holidays, an article appeared in The Ottawa Citizen. It was signed by a member of this committee, the Canadian Alliance member, Mr. Reid. He said that French-speaking newcomers should not, absolutely should not, expect to receive services in French when they go and settle, for example, in Alberta or in the West.

    Do you have any suggestions, comments or observations to make on that?

    M. Marc Arnal: I have a couple of observations to make on that.

    First, if you take the trouble to analyze the census data a little and examine the number of French speakers, including immersion graduates, those commonly called Francophiles--and I hope we will one day banish that word from our vocabulary--whose mother tongue is not French but who speak French, you will see, in counting those persons, who are very, very numerous, that the West is not as Anglophone as it might otherwise appear to be, when you only consider statistics on mother tongue. So I would say to you that, in my little dream world, for the needs of services to the public, I would like the federal government to recognize any person who speaks French across the country as Francophone. As you would see, that would change the country's linguistic profile quite quickly.

    Should those people be able to expect services in French? Absolutely. Why not? We don't lack the manpower, we're not lacking bilingual persons, even native Albertans, if you take that as an example, who can work in French in institutions providing services to immigrants.

    You also have to give credit to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration because it has already begun to amend the bilateral agreements with the provinces to ensure that services are available in French. But serving someone in French or having someone who can speak French when the person is not sick, and so on, that's not all that far from the kind of active offer we would like to have. It's also not far from the kind of offer that would establish a link with the Francophone community and improve the chances that those immigrants would settle.

    So, yes, they should be served in French, yes, there should be a bridge with our Francophone communities and, no, Francophones aren't the only bilingual persons in the West, I'm sorry. There are a fair number of Anglophones who speak French and are proud to speak French, and they are not given the opportunity to use French. If they addressed the federal government once in a while and the federal government recognized them as Francophones as well, you would see that the situation would change.

º  (1625)  

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I have another question on credentials. I imagine the same problem exists for French-speaking people as for English-speaking people with regard to the question of recognizing the credentials of foreigners who come to Canada. I'm talking about credentials, certificates, diplomas, degrees and so on. I would like to know your ideas on that.

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: We're trying to get a clear understanding as to why credentials are not recognized. There are a number of reasons. Most of the time, it's because employers in Canada are not comfortable with the country or the university where the person received his or her education. So that's considered as unknown, and they are afraid, so the value of the experience acquired by the person is not recognized. It's not taken into account at all and it becomes very difficult to recognize credentials.

    Our colleagues from Human Resources Development Canada have just received funds in this year's budget for the specific purpose of working more closely with the provinces and with the various professional bodies to change the situation, and there has been a change over the past 10 or 12 months. The provinces have taken this in hand and are working specifically with the representatives of certain professions such as engineers, doctors and other groups. In working not only with the professional bodies responsible in each province, but also with the national associations, we're already seeing an impact. There are pilot projects in Manitoba and Saskatchewan with doctors to help them to recognize credentials more quickly than is normally the case in order, simply, to identify needs and not to tell people to go back to school for seven years to earn another diploma. Instead of doing that, it is suggested that they see what the differences are, identify courses that they need and give them a chance, in agreement with certain universities, to complete the courses they are lacking and then to give them the opportunity to practise and show that they have the same skills as Canadians who have received their education here in Canada. So a lot of things are under way.

    M. Marc Arnal: Some Commonwealth countries have bilateral agreements, I believe, regarding doctors, for example. In Alberta, I believe that one in every two doctors one meets is from South Africa. That at least appears to be the case, from what we see. We had a meeting with Foreign Affairs on the weekend in which we discussed the role of La Francophonie and were told that Francophones want to play a more political, more important role. If these people want to play a more important role, there may be a good issue for them regarding this recognition, perhaps not for all of the Francophone world, but for some target countries, so that, at least in those countries, their credentials can be recognized, as is done for Commonwealth countries. I believe we have gotten to that point now.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Assad.

º  (1630)  

    Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau, Lib.): Thank you.

    Ms. Frith, you mentioned that employers are not comfortable with credentials, but that's not what I have seen. It's mainly the professional bodies that have the problem. Employers are very pleased to find workers who come from another country, but they have trouble having their credentials recognized by the professional bodies. I don't think it's the employers so much as the various professional bodies, the associations and so on, such as the colleges of physicians. It's they who create the problem; it's they who block development.

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I must say that it's both. A certain number of individuals come to Canada who are professionals, engineers, for example. In those cases, it's the professional bodies, yes, but we also have a whole group of individuals who arrive in Canada and who do another type of work, and in those cases, it's really the employers. We see this in...

    The Chair: For example?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: For example, people who work as plumbers, as electricians, trades people. For people who have a trade, the problem really comes from the employers and the unions, which do not at all recognize years of experience. So they're paid at the same level as if they were just starting to work in Canada, even if they have 10 years' experience. The statistics show that that doesn't count at all. So we have a problem.

    Mr. Mark Assad: You mentioned the trades. Would you say that the unions are perhaps too demanding?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I never feel people are too demanding because I don't think it's a question of being too demanding. I find that the problem is more the unknown, the fact that people are not comfortable. Employers will have to be sensitized across Canada, and that's a job we will all have to do together, the federal government together with the provincial governments, and which will involve a number of different departments.

    Mr. Mark Assad: In any case, what I've seen personally--and my colleagues can correct me--is that either the Order of Engineers or the College of Physicians... there is a bit of protectionism in all that. Regardless of that, we're going to solve the problem.

    I want to come back to the question raised by my colleague, Mr. Bellemare, on the productivity aspect. That's very, very true. I've been talking with people from Foreign Affairs for two or three years, telling them that we're missing the boat here. We have the opportunity to bring in people to Canada much faster than we are doing right now, and they are entrepreneurs. They have contacts with their countries and that improves trade enormously. So I don't think we realize how strong the impact is or that we recognize the benefits in that.

    I'm looking at the statistics. Except for those from European countries such as France and Belgium, obviously, there are Francophones in the countries of North African and the Middle East, particularly in Lebanon, which I have some knowledge of, and I find that those who apply to come to Canada face endless delays. So what they do--I know a few of them--is that, when they have family outside Quebec, they register to obtain a Certificat de sélection du Québec, a CSQ. So I believe we want to attract a lot more Francophones--there's no doubt about that--but, when they know there's a three-year waiting period, they give up. I know of law firms that know people outside Quebec who want to come here, to Canada. But when they see that it takes three years, they give up. So if we want to favour Francophones, the pool of countries for recruiting them is not as large as for Anglophones. We Francophones are limited in numbers. So the task should be made easier for them and a way should be found to be more productive; a way should be found to tell foreign Francophones that there's a country for them called Canada and that they will not have to wait three years.

º  (1635)  

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I must say, Mr. Assad, that that's one of the things we are examining. We're trying to draft pilot projects that will not only help us attract Francophones, but will also enable those persons to come to Canada as quickly as possible. So we as a committee are going to prepare our action plan and, at the same time, the department is working on these issues.

    Obviously, Minister Coderre has previously mentioned that it is very important for him that the Provincial Nomination Program be used to assist Francophone immigrants in coming to Canada as quickly as possible and for those persons to be welcomed in communities where a need has previously been identified. So there's an entire process here. We know that the immigrants will have work, that they will be welcomed by the community, and we're going to try to find projects where we can start working to show that we can achieve objectives. We'll see in future how that will work.

    M. Marc Arnal: I believe you're perfectly right. It's a strategy that was used very much by the Government of Alberta in Peter Lougheed's time. The minister then was Horst Schmid. They travelled outside Canada to stimulate trade and bring in entrepreneurs. It worked very well and you are completely right: it has major economic impact. Now I believe that, with the opening of the communities, it can have major social impact as well.

    Manitoba was invited by a company at one point. The Société franco-manitobaine went to Morocco. They went to talk to people, they did a tour and they went home. They invited people to come. They expected that there would be no follow-up. One day, they woke up and there were 20 families at their door. That's how the first pilot project was started. They were obliged to do something because they had not anticipated that people would respond to the request.

    The Fondation de l'entrepreneurship du Québec sits on the Dialogue project's national committee with us. Perhaps we can make use of the skills of those people as well to help us develop entrepreneurship. We have a national economic development project in the Francophone minority communities. I mentioned a new business incubator in Saint-Boniface, and there are others elsewhere. We have to start using our resources and imagination a little to reach our objectives. You are entirely right to emphasize that.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Assad, that leads me to ask a question, particularly since you spoke about credentials and unions.

    Isn't the government responsible for issuing certificates of qualification, not the unions? It's the government that issues certificates of qualification, for example, for trade schools and community colleges. A mechanic goes to a community college and learns his trade there, obtains a certificate of qualification for that purpose. So when a company hires him, under the collective agreement, it will pay him in accordance with the provincial certificate of qualification.

    Is there an agreement for each province in Canada stating that the community colleges must accept immigrants who come to Canada and who already had a trade in their country? There should be a special program so that those immigrants do not have to spend four years at a community college, but so that their credentials can be checked and a certificate of qualification issued which would then be recognized by our provinces and our country. Wouldn't that be the solution?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: That could be the solution, but what I must say is that we are in touch with our colleagues at the Department of Human Resources Development, the colleges and the universities. We are in talks to find solutions, so that the colleges in Canada, with their contacts outside Canada, can start creating qualifications data bases in order to gain a greater understanding of the differences between diplomas in Canada and other countries and then determine what courses are missing.

    That's quite a job. I believe the provinces are currently examining these problems, and a lot of colleges are discussing them in order to find solutions.

º  (1640)  

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Chairman, I'm coming back to that. Ms. Frith, you say the employers don't want to hire people. But if the province is unable to recognize credentials, how can a company recognize them without knowing where those people come from, who they are?

    So there has to be a system so that people's credentials can be recognized and so that it's then possible to recommend them to an employer. I believe something is missing. The government's responsibility cannot be denied. It's the government that provides the training and issues the certificate, and that part is missing. Do you agree with me that that part is missing, that it isn't there?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I believe there are holes in the system.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: All right, thank you. Sometimes it's hard to get something out of an official.

    I would just like to make a comment, to tell you a little story, because I believe it's important. At home, at the Bathurst hospital, we had a professional woman who was working in X-ray. Through modern technology, through the Internet, she met a man from Australia and she married him. We needed her at home, and the Bathurst school was prepared to hire her husband as a physical education teacher because it was looking for one. But Immigration Canada refused, and he had to return to Australia with his new wife. Australia accepted the Canadian in Australia, but we couldn't accept someone we needed here at home.

    The Chair: With your permission, Mr. Godin, I'm going to add to that. If she had been a player in the Canadian Football League, her spouse could have worked in Canada because there are agreements--I learned that at one point--enabling foreign spouses of Canadian Football League players to work without any permit whatever. So there appears to be ways of making special arrangements.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: I can start a discussion with you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with you, but others do not. I'm so involved in this that I say at least a brief period of time should be allowed in order to keep these people here, so that a solution can be found. Because of time, because of what's called the six-month period, I believe, they were required to leave the country, and we lost them. We lost two at the same time!

    The Chair: It's not the first time.

    Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Mr. Chairman, I have three more questions. This time, they're on services, Europe and children.

    Do you have any examples of kinds of services newcomers need, services under federal responsibility where we could help, and, if they're not under federal responsibility, but under provincial responsibility, where the federal government could push things along a little?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: The services for which we are responsible at the federal level are orientation and adjustment services, including language training for adults. We have already implemented settlement programs across the country to take care of persons arriving in Canada by type of immigrant involved. If they are refugees, we even have reception houses where we keep them for six weeks to help them to understand what it means to live in Canada. We help them open a bank account, we help them to use the transit system. We have an entire process for helping these persons, both those arriving in Canada and those who already have families helping them.

    We help them in the various aspects of orientation in the communities. Language training especially helps people integrate socially, but also in entering the labour market. But even more language training must be given for the labour market, at higher levels. That's one thing we will have to address in the next five years. We have just received funds to do that in the budget.

    So, broadly speaking, those are the orientation and adjustment responsibilities. The idea is to put persons in touch with the communities as soon as possible, so that they can use the same programs and services as any other Canadian. That's our number one priority.

    Second, these people need access to education services for their children, to health services. When we talk about Francophone immigrants, in some cases, it's more difficult than for Anglophone immigrants. But let's not forget that 44% of adult immigrants arriving in Canada speak neither of the two languages, and they need health and education services and all that. So it's a real challenge to assist these people, to get them in touch with the various resources available in the communities.

    When we talk about Francophone immigrants, the most important thing in my opinion is to start by getting them in touch with the existing Francophone community, because that's the community that will help them find a place to settle into the Francophone community, that will help them register their children in French-language schools and not in English schools.

º  (1645)  

    The Chair: I'm going to stop you there because Mr. Bellemare said he had three questions, I believe. You have a little more than one minute left, Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Ultimately, Ms. Frith began another of the answers, the answer to the question on services to children. I imagine it's often forgotten that, in the 1940s and 1950s, it was young people in their twenties who used to immigrate. Now we see families that want to come and, as one might expect, if they go somewhere as a family, their first objective is to protect their children. So they need services.

    You spoke about education and health services; that's obvious. We're still talking about services outside Quebec. In what other services is there really a need? How could a committee such as ours or the federal government try to help?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: One of the areas where we would like to do more, is in twinning programs, reception programs. The problem with children is that a child who is starting school and speaks neither English nor French is not always very well accepted. A child starting school with a French quite different from the French spoken in Canada is not always welcomed as he or she should be. So we need to sensitize our children more in general and to create opportunities for our children born in Canada to interact with the children of immigrants.

    So that's an area where we could do more. We need a lot more recreational activities, to get involved in everything that goes on in the communities, so that people are more aware of the needs of immigrants' children. I believe we're already doing a little, but we can do more.

º  (1650)  

    M. Marc Arnal: I would say to you that the Multiculturalism Program used to have an important role in community development in certain ethnocultural groups. That's a mandate that is less apparent now within the Multiculturalism Program. We're talking more now about anti-racism programs, diversity promotion programs, which are good things. However, I wonder, in view of our objectives, whether it wouldn't perhaps be good to consider multiculturalism initiatives which would promote the development of community areas belonging to the communities, but in an integration perspective. That's a question I ask myself.

    To answer your first question, there's also the entire question of employment. I believe the federal presence is felt much more in the regions in the employment centres dealing with Francophones. There are experiments in Saint-Boniface that are working very well, with single windows where federal and provincial services are provided under the same roof.

    There are a lot of things that could be done. From where we stand right now, I think we are going to let the system move forward a little with the programs that are in place. We're going to make certain recommendations at the outset on specificities that should be developed and, as we advance, we will try to identify systemic barriers, if you will, or situations that prevent us from achieving our objectives. At that point, we may have to ask certain departments to change certain programs or change the way certain programs are implemented so as to achieve our objectives.

    The Chair: I have a few questions to ask and comments to make. Then we'll see if anyone else wishes to speak. For the moment, no one has expressed a desire to continue.

    In your presentation, Mr. Arnal, you referred to the work done by the Commissioner of Official Languages on the amendments that were made to the government's immigration bill.

    That's true, but we shouldn't forget the work of the members as well. At the outset, the Commissioner's recommendations were not accepted by the government, and it was as a result of the work of certain members that those amendments, which are very important, were ultimately approved and are now part of the legislation. That should not be forgotten. Sometimes the work that's done is not obvious, but, in this case, I believe that, given its results, it should be.

    Second, Ms. Frith, when you appeared on Monday, we discussed information that the department would send us. I just want to come back to that. It would be good if it did so as soon as possible. All right?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: Yes, I have some.

    The Chair: All right. I'm going to ask you for more. You may have received a request. The department received a request from our analyst, Mr. Ménard, who would like a copy of the federal-provincial immigration agreements in effect so that we can conduct a kind of analysis, ultimately a screening.

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: Yes, I received it. I already have a list, but I'm looking for copies.

    The Chair: All right.

    I also want to come back to one notion. There is wisdom in the way some things are structured, in this case your committee.

    You, Ms. Frith, represent the government side. So you can't really criticize your colleagues in public; we understand that.

    Mr. Arnal, you represent the community; we invite you to do so, and you do it. If I understood correctly, the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade has not been very cooperative to date.

    M. Marc Arnal: We initially approached its representatives. However, without wanting to blame them entirely, I believe that the reason why they should participate was not clear to them at the time, and perhaps not to us either, but I believe that's becoming increasingly clear.

    The Chair: The question I ultimately put to my colleagues--perhaps you could give us your reaction, Mr. Arnal--is this: is it worth the trouble to invite them in the context of this work on immigration?

º  (1655)  

    M. Marc Arnal: I believe CIC's international region is the responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs, isn't that so, Rosaline?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: Yes and no.

    The Chair: Ladies and gentlemen, if you have no objection, perhaps we could add the Department of Foreign Affairs to the list of people we must...

    Mr. Yvon Godin: They must accept their responsibilities.

    The Chair: Perfect. So perhaps we'll work around March 19 for Foreign Affairs. All right?

    I want to come back to the action plan you're preparing for us and which will be ready a little later this year, and to another action plan, the department's, the action plan which the department must prepare under section 41 of Part VII of the Official Languages Act. Is the 2003, 2004 and 2005 action plan ready? Is it available?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I believe so. I'll have to check with people. I know that we have already prepared a plan. I believe it's ready.

    The Chair: Does that fit in with your committee's action plan?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: Yes, very much so, because the department's plan concerns Part IV and Part VII of the act. So there's more than Part VII, but I believe everything we're going to do for Part IV will help us for Part VII. It doesn't specifically concern the objectives we want to consider in detail in the committee's plan, and the committee's work is much more a collaborative effort in which we are trying to put on paper the actions that are possible in the short and medium terms, with a long-term vision. We're also going to submit the committee's action plan to Mr. Coderre in the hope that we will work together to identify the various projects. So it will again take a collaborative effort to do that. All that's part of the department's other plan.

    The Chair: Do you know when in 2003 your committee's plan will be ready?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: I hope it will be ready by June.

    Mr. Marc Arnal: I think June is probably the latest date we've set.

    The Chair: It should be made public at that time, I imagine.

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: Once the minister has agreed to make it public, yes.

    The Chair: Thank you. All right.

    M. Marc Arnal: There's going to be a second document. That will be a regional document with a national component which will be the implementation plan. We're going to develop that document during the year.

    The Chair: Ms. Frith, Mr. Arnal, on behalf of my colleagues, I thank you for your presentation. I found it very useful. I invite you to stay, but we will be devoting a few minutes to a discussion on upcoming work. I'm going to begin and then Mr. Godin has asked me if he can present something.

    First, I want to confirm that, on Monday, March 17, at 3:30 p.m., there will be a presentation by Minister Dion on his action plan for the renewal of official languages. On the 19th, since we were just talking about Foreign Affairs, we're going to try to organize a meeting. The following week, that is to say the week of the 24th, there will probably be two reports that we may have in hand: the report on our recommendations to the Department of Justice regarding the RCMP and the issuing of contraventions, and a second report on immigration. If you have any comments, suggestions or recommendations on that, please send them to our research officer in the next 10 days, if possible. There may be others arising from our meeting with Foreign Affairs.

    For the 26th, we have received confirmation from the Department of National Defence. After that, we're free. I would remind you--and I'm going to ask our clerk to circulate a memo to all committee members--that we had discussed a number of possibilities. There was the entire question of the federal-provincial agreements on education, which could be a fairly broad topic. We were talking about perhaps talking to other departments on the question of section 41 of Part VII. We spoke about the Department of Health and Human Resources Development. So there are all those possibilities and perhaps other subjects as well. Once you've received the memo, if you could state your comments and preferences, that would be very useful.

    There's also an invitation. We have apparently received, or will receive, I don't really know, an invitation from the Commissioner of Official Languages. She would like to invite committee members to a luncheon on March 26. That's a Wednesday, I believe. I told her she could invite us; those who can make it will do so. That's all for me.

    I know that Mr. Godin wants to raise a question. Mr. Godin.

»  (1700)  

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    When Radio-Canada withdrew La Soirée du hockey from its Saturday night French-language programming, you know how active this committee became, and, after summoning Radio-Canada twice, the committee was successful. I would like some research to be done to determine how Radio-Canada is serving French Canadians for the Canada Winter Games.

    I find this shameful. I would like to have as much information as possible on its role in the Canada Winter Games because I'm beginning to receive complaints from people who don't have RDS. It's really too bad, but they are not seeing the Canada Winter Games. It's a shame. TSN is broadcasting them, as are RDS and CBC.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: And RDI?

    Mr. Yvon Godin: RDI isn't there, but the CBC is. So, as you can imagine, in Bathurst and Campbellton, where I'm from, in a place where one-third of the Francophone population of New Brunswick lives--and this is true of all places in Canada, even in Quebec--people who don't have RDS can't even watch the Canada Winter Games. The Canada Winter Games are being held at home, and people can't even watch them because they don't have RDS on their cable.

    That's why I'm saying that, before starting things, we should conduct some research to determine what Radio-Canada's role is. I'm not just talking about news. I don't want anyone to tell us that we were shown two minutes' worth. I really want to know the role of both. What was the contract the CBC signed and what was the contract Radio-Canada signed to broadcast the Canada Winter Games? I don't think Radio-Canada is playing its role at all.

    The Chair: Mr. Godin, would you be in favour of us asking our clerk to send a letter to Radio-Canada management asking them for all the information you mentioned and of us acting accordingly once we have received a reply?

    Mr. Yvon Godin: We could take action on the basis of that.

    The Chair: Would you find that suitable?

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes.

    The Chair: Then, if there are no objections, I will make arrangements with our clerk.

    On that note, I wish you a pleasant two weeks. We'll see you again on the 17th.

    The meeting is adjourned.