LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT,  2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, February 17, 2003

¹

1535

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Mr. Martin Murphy (President, Executive Director of the English-speaking Catholic Council, Quebec Community Groups Network)

¹

1540

¹

1545

¹

1550

The Chair

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch (National Executive Vice-President, Jewish National Fund of Canada)

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

¹

1555

Mr. Martin Murphy

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Martin Murphy

º

1600

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.)

Mr. Martin Murphy

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Martin Murphy

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

º

1605

Mr. Martin Murphy

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.)

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

º

1610

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Mr. Martin Murphy

º

1615

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

Mr. Martin Murphy

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Martin Murphy

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

º

1620

Mr. Martin Murphy

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Martin Murphy

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

º

1625

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch

º

1630

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

º

1635

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Martin Murphy

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Martin Murphy

The Chair

º

1640

The Chair

Ms. Dyane Adam (Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages)

º

1645

º

1650

º

1655

»

1700

»

1705

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

»

1710

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

Ms. Dyane Adam

»

1715

Mr. Carsten Quell (Senior Agent, Liaison and Part VII, Office of the Official Languages Commissioner)

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Dyane Adam

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Dyane Adam

»

1720

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Dyane Adam

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Dyane Adam

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

The Chair

Ms. Dyane Adam

»

1725

The Chair

Ms. Dyane Adam

The Chair

Ms. Dyane Adam

The Chair

Mr. Carsten Quell

The Chair

Mr. Carsten Quell

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

»

1730

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Dyane Adam

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

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NUMBER 010

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Monday, February 17, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1535)  

[Translation]

    The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Ladies and gentlemen, this is the first of a series of four meetings. During today's meeting, and the meetings of Wednesday of this week and those of next week, we will study the issue of immigration in relation to official languages.

    On Wednesday of this week, we will meet with representatives from Statistics Canada. On the 24^th, Monday, we will hear from Minister Coderre, and on the 26^th, Wednesday, we will hear from representatives of the Steering Committee of Citizenship and Immigration Canada—minority francophone communities.

[English]

    We have today two groups. The first is the Quebec Community Groups Network, in the person of Mr. Martin Murphy, who's accompanied by Mr. Joseph Rabinovich, who's the national executive vice-president of the Jewish National Fund of Canada. We'll ask Mr. Murphy and Mr. Rabinovich to make relatively short presentations, after which we'll do the usual round of questioning. At 4:30, or thereabouts, we will invite the official languages commissioner, Madam Dyane Adam, to come forward and address this issue. We looked at it last year, but we never did get around to issuing a report, because we were also seeing considerable movement in the immigration file, if I can say so. So this is an attempt on our part to get caught up with what's happening, hear of the concerns of the communities, and perhaps come forward with some recommendations to the government.

    Without further ado, Mr. Murphy, over to you.

    Mr. Martin Murphy (President, Executive Director of the English-speaking Catholic Council, Quebec Community Groups Network): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentleman.

    We welcome the opportunity to address the Standing Committee on Official Languages on an issue that has historically been and remains of great importance to the English-speaking community of Quebec. The Quebec Community Groups Network had its first framework agreement in 1995, which brought together the English-language minority communities that are supported by the Government of Canada through the Departments of Official Languages and Canadian Heritage.

    Although the Official Languages Act calls for the promotion of linguistic duality and vitality of official language communities, very little research has been directed at determining what the province's anglophone population needs towards achieving the goal of vitality, yet immigration to Quebec on the part of English speakers is of considerable importance, obviously, to us. The English speakers from abroad who have chosen to settle in Quebec have not been the object of much interest in respect of either the numbers they represent or the process of adaptation they encounter, and yet there's an important connection between the migration issues, out-migration and in-migration, that have become critical for the future of the English-speaking community. There is no doubt that the loss of anglophones from interprovincial migration has meant that the flow of more new arrivals takes on greater importance in maintaining conditions of vitality.

    The introduction of the Charter of the French Language, which obliged almost all immigrants arriving after 1977 to send their children to French-language schools, initially resulted in immigration becoming a less important source of institutional growth for the Quebec anglophone community. Then the enactment of the Cullen-Couture accord of 1978 facilitated the recruitment of a greater share of immigrants for Quebec from French-speaking countries. In 1990 the McDougall-Gagnon-Tremblay agreement reinforced the Quebec government's role in the process of immigrant selection, as well as transferring resources in the area of integration of new arrivals from the federal to the provincial authorities.

    The demographic importance of immigration cannot be properly assessed without considering the recent evolution of the province's English-speaking population. From a demographic standpoint, the results of Canada's 2001 census offered very little good news for Quebec anglophones. On the basis of mother tongue, the anglophone population suffered a decline of nearly 8%, or over 30,000, persons in that five-year period from 1996 to 2001. The drop was largely attributable to the net losses from interprovincial migration. As a matter of fact, in that five-year period, some 57,000 more persons left Quebec for other provinces than arrived in Quebec from the rest of Canada, and of that total nearly half were mother-tongue anglophones, resulting in a substantial reduction in the community's population.

    Most Quebec immigrants who speak English do so as a second language. On the basis of mother tongue, anglophone immigrants in relation to Quebec's total immigration have declined in both numbers and percentage. Over the last five years of the 1990s the share of mother-tongue anglophone immigrants dropped by nearly 50%. As much as one out of five Quebec immigrants in the early 1970s, immigration is now closer to one out of forty new arrivals to the province.

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    The number and share of new arrivals diverges considerably when assessed on the basis of the immigrants' knowledge of the English language. Indeed, most Quebec immigrants are of neither English nor French mother tongue, as from 1996 to 2001 allophones have represented about 85% of new arrivals. The number of immigrants who speak English as a second language is, as I said, considerably greater than the number with English as a mother tongue, but they represent a potentially important population source for Quebec's English-speaking community.

    During the 1990s there was an increase in the concentration of English-speaking immigrants in the Montreal area, while the share of new arrivals settling in the rest of Quebec has been on the decline. The settlement pattern of anglophones differs little from that of other immigrants to the province. For the most part, immigrants settling outside the Montreal area take up residence in places such as Laval and the Montérégie In these two regions the geographic proximity to the Montreal region and the critical mass of anglophones make for greater opportunities to gain access to institutions that provide required services. In the Laurentians, Quebec City, and Eastern Townships the situation is different, since there is, on the one hand, a reduced number of immigrants and on the other a lesser degree of anglophone community organizations.

    The 2001 census revealed that the province of Quebec had the highest net loss of any province on the basis of interprovincial migration. Moreover, these departures generally involved persons between the ages of 20 and 40. Clearly, an important segment of this migration included immigrants who settled in the province over a relatively brief period and thereafter proceeded to relocate elsewhere in Canada. There was a net loss of nearly 25% to Quebec in the numbers of immigrants who spoke English only upon arrival and ended up elsewhere in Canada over the period 1980 to 1995. Not only does this represent an important loss to the province's anglophone population, it is also a loss to Quebec as a whole. The Citizenship and Immigration research found that “the class for which Quebec experienced the greatest erosion in immigrant tax filers was the business class. About 48%...of business immigrants destined to Quebec over the 1980 to 1995 period were resident in other provinces in the 1995 tax year.”

    In the brief we have identified reasons that reveal that mother tongue anglophone immigrants are more inclined to leave for educational and economic opportunities, that is, those who were born in Canada, while non-immigrant English speakers more frequently cite political considerations. Greater shares of anglophone immigrants cite discrimination as a factor in the decision to leave the province. In summary, problems associated with integration issues are those most often identified by anglophone immigrants as influencing the decision to leave the province.

    In this regard, if you look at the total, of the 13% of the population of Quebec who would consider themselves as belonging to the English-speaking population only 7% have employment in the federal civil service. Indeed, if I speak about the province of Quebec itself, while 8.3% of the population is English in mother tongue, fewer than 1% of English-speaking people in that population have employment in the provincial civil service.

    English-speaking immigrants who arrive in Quebec demonstrate an openness to the province's francophone population and the French fact. According to the 2001 poll conducted by the firm SOM and commissioned by La Presse and Radio-Canada, some 80% of anglophone immigrants say they had made efforts to reach out to the francophone population.

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    Access to health and social services and access to government services are perhaps the priority issues that have been identified as topping the list.

    While the Quebec government now invests in recruiting French-speaking immigrants, it also allows a not significant number of English speakers to settle in the province. However, many of these immigrants are unaware of the services that exist in the province's English-speaking community. At the same time, the province's English-speaking community is little aware of the needs of new immigrants. Both the immigrant and the community could benefit from more information in this regard. English-speaking institutions can provide a sense of community to those immigrants, while facilitating the transition to Quebec society and its linguistic duality. Successful integration is closely linked to the institutional vitality of communities, and Quebec's English population is no exception. An evaluation of the needs of English-speaking immigrants would help the institutions of the anglophone community make adjustments to the services they now offer to conform to the changing composition of the community.

    We have identified a number of recommendations. There are four primarily, but I will add one or two at the end here. The first is the communication of information by Citizenship and Immigration to Quebec anglophone organizations regarding the province's English-speaking immigrants. The second is raising awareness of Quebec's official language communities and the information disseminated to immigrants by Citizenship and Immigration. The third is, with the support of CItizenship and Immigration Canada, to conduct a broad assessment of the needs of Quebec's English-speaking immigrants. The fourth is that Canadian Heritage and CItizenship and Immigration support a multi-sectoral round table that could work to address the needs of English-speaking immigrants.

    In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I want to highlight a few items as a portrait taken from the 2001 census of Canada report that was published on December 10. There were 621,000 English mother tongue residents in Quebec in 1996, 591,000 in 2001, representing now 8.3% of the population. The francophone population is 81.4%, with 5,802,000. The allophone population now is greater than that of the English mother tongue, with 732,000, representing 10.3%. Between 1986 and 1991 22,000 people of English mother tongue left Quebec. In 1991-1996 24,500 left Quebec. In 1996-2001 almost 30,500 left Quebec, for a total of about 76,000 English mother tongue.

    I referred earlier to the fact that Quebec itself had the largest net loss of all the provinces and territories through migration. Between 1996 and 2001 almost 119,700 people left Quebec, while 62,400 moved in. The resulting net loss was 57,300, Quebec's highest since the mid-1980s. It followed a net outflow of 37,400 during the previous five-year period. Half of Quebec's total loss to migration occurred in the ages 30 to 44. Some 39,700 francophones left Quebec in that period and 53,300 anglophones for other provinces and territories. The anglophones had a net loss of about 30,000 in the five-year period, the francophones 8,800, the allophones 19,170.

    Mr. Chairman, I'd be glad to have an exchange with members.

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    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Rabinovitch, I'll ask you to limit yourself to five minutes, if you could.

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch (National Executive Vice-President, Jewish National Fund of Canada): What I have to say will take only three minutes.

    We can throw statistics at you until you have a chance to absorb them, but they don't really mean anything. What you have to do is look at the long-term trends, even the short-term trends. If these figures Martin just went over continue, it's obvious, if you look at the long term, that Quebec will have a concentration of most francophones in Canada, and most anglophones in Canada will be outside Quebec. This is a trend that started back in the mid-seventies and has continued over the past five years. I believe this will continue at the same rate. What can we do about it? I really don't know. Perhaps that's the $64,000 question.

    What concerns us most is how we keep anglophones who have settled in Quebec in Quebec, because we're not having any success in keeping them here. Further, if you look at the demographic profile of those who are leaving Quebec, they are the income earners, the professionals, and so forth. Those are the ones we are losing in Quebec. What can we do, as an anglophone community in Quebec, to retain the anglophones in Quebec? I don't have an answer yet. Perhaps in the discussion I can hear other points of view, but that is my greatest concern: with long-term trends, what is going to happen to the anglophone community in Quebec? By in Quebec I mean more or less in the greater Montreal area. That's where most of the anglophones are concentrated, although there are groups out in Quebec City, in the Gaspé, the Eastern Townships, the Laurentians. These are also diminishing, but not at the same rate as those in the greater Montreal area.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Reid.

    Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Actually, Mr. Rabinovich, you basically express the same sentiment I've had. I wrote a book about language policy about 10 years ago, and one of the questions I was trying to address was whether or not there was a successful method of dealing with patterns of assimilation and migration that governments could impose. I found, from looking at the Canadian experience in various provinces over the years and jurisdictions elsewhere in the world, that it's really difficult to find models that seem to work. There have been countries where there have been many fewer restraints on what governments are permitted to do with coercive measures, and even in those countries they've been unsuccessful in coming up with anything that actually seemed to function. We have certain limits on what we would find acceptable, and within those limits, we seem not to have very much that works.

    I'm also struggling with the degree to which the measures available to us would be within the federal jurisdiction anyway and the degree to which they are within the provincial jurisdiction. It seems to me that some of the things mentioned, for example, the unwillingness of the Quebec government to employ non-francophones, something I think verges on systemic discrimination, are not within the federal jurisdiction. It's not an appropriate pattern of behaviour, but there's nothing we can do here.

    I know you've been reticent to say anything, but I do wonder if there is anything specific you can suggest we ought to be looking at, That really is, I think, our function here as a committee, to try to find recommendations we can take upwards to the government.

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    Mr. Martin Murphy: This dossier is a relatively new one for us, as I expressed at the beginning. We had other priorities to attend to, and now that this is here, it certainly is one we're going to continue to focus on in a very important way. Even since we tabled the first draft of the presentation, our thoughts have been more crystallized and focused, and I can suggest some things.

    We talked about 1990, the entente between the federal government and Quebec, the McDougall-Gagnon-Tremblay agreement. Could that be examined again with a view to having both parties analyse matters in view of today's reality? I would hope he Quebec government is concerned about the important exodus, about the plight of the English-speaking minority community, and would, twelve years afterwards, analyse the consequences of that entente and see whether or not there are some measures that could be adopted to provide a source of replenishment for the English-speaking community, through migration, for example. So that's one important recommendation, we believe, that could be examined.

    A second one is not in the recommendations, because we know it is provincial jurisdiction, but this is a forum for us to put on the table the issues we are confronted with. For example, Quebec is the only province that has not accepted paragraph 23(1)(a) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Successive Quebec governments have steadfastly refused to extend its scope to make it applicable in Quebec.

    Mr. Scott Reid: As a practical matter, that's not really something within our purview.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: I know. I said that is provincial jurisdiction. But I do want to put on the table the issues that confront us and have a very serious negative impact. If that paragraph were adopted, it would mean we would have the potential of perhaps another 10,000 students in the English elementary schools of Quebec. That would be very significant for the English-speaking community. It would not, however, be a very significant negative effect for the mass of French-speaking students who are in the English elementary system.

    The second thing I have to put on the table is that the Bill 101 regulations governing admission to English schools are making it virtually impossible now for the English system to sustain itself. We see a significant decline in the number of children now enrolled in kindergarten, and it will continue in the next five years. Here's another problem we're confronted with. To demonstrate that just a few miles away there's another world, parents have made great investments for their children to be bilingual, sending them to French schools and making sure they graduate with a bilingual education. Well, here's the latest news. Families moving to Quebec who qualify for English education under the Canada clause are being subjected now to very close scrutiny. The Quebec government recently tried to declare that students from the rest of Canada who have been in a French immersion program are to be classified as having their education in French, thereby not being qualified to continue their education in English if they come to Quebec. This has been successfully opposed up until now, but application forms have been recently been changed by the government requiring parents who transfer their children to declare the number of minutes per week their children received instruction in French and in English prior to coming to Quebec. So you can see the potential that may have, although, as I said, we've been successful up until now in managing that.

º  (1600)  

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Thibeault.

[English]

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen.

    Your first recommendation here is the communication of information by CIC to Quebec anglophone organizations. Do you offer any kind of service to immigrants who would come to your friends? Do you have such a service in your organization at the moment?

    Mr. Martin Murphy: The Quebec Community Groups Network is an umbrella group that has within it 20 minority community organizations throughout the province, from the Outaouais to the Gaspé, the north shore, but I can give you one example. The Voice of English-speaking Quebec, centred in Quebec City, has, as part of its program, a very interesting and attractive plan to reach out to the immigrants, to make it an inviting environment, and to support them once they're there. They do have somebody on staff part of whose job description to attend to that issue.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: But at this moment they don't have the information from CIC to help them with the process of integration. This is one thing I find in my riding office--I do have anglophones in my riding. The English-speaking immigrants all complain of the same thing, that when they came here, CIC did a very bad job of informing them about what they would be facing.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: It may well be that Citizenship and Immigration has a lot of very important information. We all know from our experience that we give a message and it's not always heard. So I guess what we're doing is highlighting that we have to see in what manner the information can be disseminated more widely and more prominently.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: In my experience, Immigration Quebec works very closely with Immigration Canada. There doesn't seem to be a problem there. I've never noticed any discrimination from Immigration Quebec towards the English-speaking, that has simply not happened. So I think that's a good point.

    You mentioned the fact that the federal government in Quebec employs about 8%.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: Yes, between 7% and 8% of the anglophone population in Quebec are working for the federal civil service, even though we account for 13% of the population.

    The Chair: Am I to believe that approximately 8% of the federal public service workforce is anglophone, rather than that the Government of Canada employs 8% of the English population? That's a distinction.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: If we talk about the Quebec population, it has 8.3% of English mother tongue. If we talk about 13% of the population, we are talking about those who identify themselves as belonging to the anglophone population.

    The Chair: But I just want to make sure we don't mislead anyone here. What you're suggesting is that 8% of the federal public service in Quebec is anglophone?

    Mr. Martin Murphy: Some 8% of the anglophone population of Quebec are working in the federal civil service.

    The Chair: I just want to make sure. If you say you've got 700,000 anglophones in Quebec, in round numbers; 10% is 70,000 people, and you don't have 70,000. So 8% of the federal public service workforce is anglophone. Whether it should be higher or not, it's 8% of the federal public service workforce.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: Yes.

    The Chair: Okay, thank you.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: That's what I thought I understood. You seem to feel it should be higher than that. Why is it not higher than that? Is it because of the lack of interest among the English-speaking population in seeking jobs in the federal government? Have you identified any other reasons?

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    Mr. Martin Murphy: We had a meeting recently with Minister Lucienne Robillard of the Treasury Board on this, because she's the responsible minister. We're working with her to see that we get a common understanding and in what manner than can be redressed. There appears to be a sense of discrimination, because over time a number of English-speaking people have applied for the jobs, and they appear to be systematically denied. Is the basis that their French language skills are not perfect? We can speculate as to the reasons. We have to look at the facts, though, and see in what manner that can be addressed, and we're doing that now with Minister Lucienne Robillard.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: For the time being, thank you very much. I'll give a chance to somebody else.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Allard.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you for being here today, Mr. Murphy and Mr. Rabinovitch.

    I am new to the Official Languages Committee, so please excuse my ignorance, but as a francophone, of course, I am very interested in this issue.

    Mr. Murphy, I gather from your observations that you are afraid the anglophone community in Quebec will disappear over the short or long term. If Quebec's anglophone community, which you belong to, becomes increasingly bilingual, would that reassure you? You asked: How do we keep anglophones in Quebec? I would like to know what your definition of "anglophone" is.

[English]

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: Let me answer that question. It's close to my heart too.

    I don't think the fact of bilingualism has any effect on keeping the anglophone population in Quebec. In fact, the majority of anglophones, all those who have come through the education system over the past 15 years, are bilingual. I can only speak of personal experience. I think personal experience brings everything to light much more than statistics. I have two children. The oldest is perfectly bilingual. She lives in London, England. Why did she go to London, England? She went to practise medicine, and she met somebody there. My other one, who is trilingual, Spanish, English, and French, is thinking of moving to Hong Kong. She probably has a good chance of getting a position there. It has nothing to do with her being bilingual or not, it has nothing to do, believe it or not, with the politics in Quebec, because both my children grew up with Bill 101, so they don't know Quebec before Bill 101. What is it for them? It's opportunity. If you look through everything here, why do people leave now from Quebec? My sense is that it's opportunity.

    What happens in the rest of the world when people leave? There are always people coming in to fill the void. That's the world we live in now. There's no such thing as carrying on your career for 30 or 40 years in one place. The majority of professionals, university-trained people, travel all over the world. But there's change. Look at New York City, which loses 100,000 people a year and gets 100,000 people a year in. There are always people coming in. We don't have that phenomenon in Quebec, and the question we have to ask ourselves is, why isn't it happening in Quebec? Quebec universities have the lowest fees in North America, if not the world. Quebec has the most highly developed child care system in Canada, the lowest cost of living, looking at Montreal housing and other things, and yet people are leaving and we're not getting in the replacements. So when you talk about official languages and immigration, the key is not necessarily to keep everybody in Quebec who is educated in Quebec, but what we do to keep people coming in to replace the people who are leaving. This is the situation we've faced for many years.

    I'm very active in the Jewish community, and we've had ententes with Quebec and Ottawa for bringing in immigrants from Argentina, and from Russia especially. The community has put in hundreds of thousands of dollars investing in having these individuals integrated into French-speaking Quebec. The children of immigrants go to French schools etc., yet we still find that 30% to 40%, after spending five or six years in Quebec, leave. We ask them why. It's economic opportunity. They want to have a chance to experience the world.

    I think the challenge we face in Quebec, and it's not only the anglophone community--you see francophones are leaving as well--is that we're not replacing these people. If the trend continues, in 20 years you're going to have 50% of the Canadian population centred around the Greater Toronto Area. Is this something we want? You talk about asymmetrical federalism--that's what we're going to have. Everything's going to be centred in Toronto, and the others are just going to be peripheries. How do we bring in people to replace these young professionals, these young people we've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in for their education who are now going to practise law in New York or medicine in London, England?

    The other challenge we have is that the power to do anything worthwhile to keep these people here is in provincial jurisdiction. The federal government has delegated to Quebec all matters dealing with immigration. Education has always been a provincial jurisdiction, health and social services have always been a provincial jurisdiction, etc. That ties our hands, because I think our challenge, again, is how we replace these people. I'm positive that's the only solution we have in the short term or long term in regard to the Quebec anglophone community.

º  (1610)  

[Translation]

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: So, when you say you want to replace those who are leaving, you would like the newcomers to be anglophones. You feel there are not enough anglophone immigrants coming to Quebec, is that right, Mr. Murphy?

[English]

    Mr. Martin Murphy: What we're looking for are some incentives for regional development to encourage employment opportunities. Another thing is manpower training agreements. We talked about education and health, but there are agreements on manpower training, so if there were clauses there that paid attention to fairness and opportunities for the English-speaking minority community, I think that would go some distance in giving some hope to people that there's a future for them there.

    I want to be clear that we celebrate the investments the Government of Canada, through the Department of Canadian Heritage, has made to support the French-speaking minority community in other provinces. Certainly, many are isolated and fragmented. To carry the Canadian flag in all the provinces, they need a lot of support , and we all know the reason. But I think the time now is here for the federal government to pay more attention to the condition of the English-speaking minority community in Quebec, through the investments it would make to give hope.

    When I talk about the investments, in 1999, when we negotiated the current framework agreement between the Government of Canada and the Quebec Community Groups Network, which expires on March 31, 2004, the English-speaking minority community had a population close to that of the French-speaking minority community. We had 925,000, and in the rest of Canada there are 985,000 French-speaking people. We receive now a total of $15 million over the five years. The French-speaking minority of Canada receives $122 million over the five years for direct support through program and project funding. These are the facts, and we hope in the next round of negotiations there will be an important investment for the other official language minority community. It's not to take from them to give to us, but it may be one of the reasons there is an increase now of 10,700 members of the francophone community outside Quebec in this recent census, so that investment is paying dividends. We would like that investment to be made for us, so hopefully, in five years time we'll be able to demonstrate at least that the bleeding won't continue--76,000 English mother tongue alone in 15 years, and if that trend continues, we are all losers.

º  (1615)  

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

    Monsieur Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): I like the presentation, as a Franco-Ontarian.

[Translation]

I have a lot of sympathy,

[English]

and I understand your plight.

    You talked about access to government services and to hospitals. What did you mean by this? Let's take government services as one item.

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: What we've said is the following, and it's in the brief. We've polled immigrant and non-immigrant Quebec anglophones and asked them how they ranked certain services of importance. With access to health and social services, 86% view this as extremely or very important, not important, only 2%. In other words, access to health and social services is one of their highest priorities. As to whether or not they're getting that access, in the greater Montreal area I think the answer is yes, but outside the greater Montreal area it's problematic.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: And this also covers hospitals?

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: Yes.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: To elaborate on that a little, to bring more precision from my experience, there is so much goodwill from the French-speaking population in serving the population that comes to a hospital. Recently we got a grant from the Department of Canadian Heritage to translate key documents in health and social services. A doctor in Saint-Sacrament Hospital in Quebec City who was releasing an English-speaking patient--and now they have to release them very quickly from the hospital, as you know--wanted to give this person some literature, so that that person could be sure to follow the directions, and there was nothing available. Thankfully, we had that grant, we did translate a lot of brochures, dépliants, and so forth; we're putting them on the web, and we're going to encourage all of the medical professionals and caregivers to look for them, because we want to build that inventory to be supportive of one another.

    But the moment you go off the island of Montreal in particular, there are serious deficiencies in the provision of health care, and we know from the research that there's an important correlation between the doctor and the patient. For the doctor to give the right diagnosis and prescription, the understanding is fundamental. As I said, it's truly remarkable what the French-speaking caregivers and doctors have done throughout the province in trying to respond to their professional obligations.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I support you 100%. I've had the experience of having a mother who couldn't speak much English die in a hospital in Ottawa where she could not get any service in French. Before she died, she told me this.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: It's just not right, it's just not right.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Mr. Simard.

[English]

    Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome, gentlemen.

    This is, for me, very difficult to understand. I'm a francophone from western Canada, from Manitoba, and I never imagined anglophones being the minority. But I can see you're facing the same problems we're facing in Winnipeg, if you will.

    You spoke about evaluation of needs for the English community. In our area only 4% of the population are francophones, but we have a fairly homogeneous population, people know each other. I'm wondering if that's a problem in Quebec, where it's a fairly large population of people and there are a lot of different groups. Is there a strong lobby group to assist you, or is the Quebec Community Groups Network the group that represents the anglophones there? Is that a problem in having strong representation at the community level? The reason we're getting some success is that we've grouped together and we're lobbying. We're very strong that way.

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Martin Murphy: As I understand it, in Manitoba the people are within a short distance from each other, right?

    Mr. Raymond Simard: They're fairly tight, yes.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: That, of course, is not the case in Quebec. It's a long distance from Hull to the Gaspé coast, the Côte-Nord, and so forth. So that's one element.

    As to institutional support, infrastructure, and leadership, with people leaving these communities, they're having difficulty getting the leadership that's necessary to replace them. That's why I'm appealing at this forum to see in what manner an important investment can be made for these minority communities there today that are carrying the Canadian flag in different parts of the province. They need support and encouragement for their institutions and for the people there to embrace and to provide leadership for the future.

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: The other thing is, the anglophone community is very heterogeneous.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Exactly.

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: It is not homogeneous at all.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: That's obviously a problem when you're trying to get people together.

    More maybe out of curiosity, with English as a language of business and with our strong American neighbours to the south, I would imagine there are more French-speaking Quebeckers speaking English than there were before. I would imagine there are more bilingual people in that end as well. It would seem to me that would support your efforts. Has that been a support, the preponderance of the English language in Quebec among francophones?

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: Strange to say, I think that's been a deterrent rather than anything else. English is the lingua franca. Anywhere you go in the world now you have to learn English. But when government officials raise concern that there's too much English in the workplace and suggest that they're going to be introducing new legislation to fight against English--not to promote French, I'm choosing my words exactly the way I read them--in the workplace and when on the Internet, if you're located in Quebec and you're serving the world, it's obligatory now to have your site in French, and then English, it doesn't work to help English.

    Yet on the ground, if you're going to make a living in today's world, no matter where you're living in Canada, you have to learn English. English is where the business is being done. I mentioned before my daughter going to Hong Kong. There are 5.5 million people there. Everybody who is in business there speaks English. The language of commerce is English. But if you don't have government leadership in that, in fact, if government leadership, for whatever reason--and I'm not questioning it--is negative towards it, it sends the wrong message. It sends the message that if I want to expand my business throughout the United States and North America and Europe, I'd better leave Quebec, so that I can do it in English. That's the message that's being sent.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Simard.

    Mr. Reid, five minutes.

    Mr. Scott Reid: Mr. Rabinovitch, your comments earlier relating to the problem of a lack of in-migration to Quebec got me thinking. My ancestors were Anglo-Quebeckers. My first home was in Hull. My grandparents immigrated from eastern Europe--they were eastern European Jews--to Quebec. In fact, my grandfather arrived there 100 years ago this year. They stayed in Montreal, because Montreal was the place to be, that was where the most opportunities were for someone coming from overseas to Canada. It was the most dynamic spot in the country, with the most job opportunities. My father went there as a young boy with his mother in the mid-forties for much the same reason. They went from Vancouver to Montreal. Things were happening there. It seems to me that's no longer really true. It's not the dynamic hub it was. When my mother was growing up there the joke used to be that the only interesting thing to do on a weekend in Toronto was to get in your car and drive to Montreal. Things have changed a bit. Mind you, the liquor laws in Ontario are different now.

    I'm struggling with this vexed question. How does one balance the legitimate goal the Quebec government has of trying to find a way of preserving the overall numbers of francophones in Quebec in a world, and particularly on a continent, that is English-speaking with the equally legitimate desire to preserve the English-speaking community in Quebec? Whenever I read the demographers talking about Quebec, this debate that goes on endlessly about whether Montreal is speaking more English or more French and whether francophones are moving off the island or not, all that stuff, it's always discussed in terms of percentages, the zero sum game, and it seems to me that a diminishing pie is being fought over. If you go back to the days when my father moved to Montreal, or further to when my grandfather moved there, it was an expanding pie. There was a focus at the time on economic dynamism, and it didn't so much matter what the percentages were, what mattered was that people just came there and moved there. I wonder if perhaps that isn't the real answer, a focus on making Quebec the economic dynamo of Canada it was 100 years ago, and even 50 years ago, and is not, quite frankly, today.

    I've given you this long question. I don't know if you have an answer to that.

º  (1625)  

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: I don't know whether I should answer yes or no.

    I think those days are gone. I think it's a North American trend, by the way, as well. In the United States, with the industry productivity, where is growth? It's in the sun belt, and it's moving into the midwest and further west. I don't think we can counter that trend.

    There is, however, an interesting statistic you might not be aware of. Montreal has the highest number of students per capita of any city in North America, even more than Boston. McGill and Concordia, the University of Montreal, not so much UQAM, have a high percentage now of students who come from outside the province. A high percentage of them leave, whereas in Montreal, if you send your kids to the University of Toronto or UBC or the University of Alberta, it's very unlikely that they're coming back. This was a project I never talked to Martin about. I'd like to do a poll of these students who are here from outside Quebec in Montreal and ask them what it would take for them to stay in Montreal. I don't know the answer, but I'd be very curious to know what it would take. On the other hand, I would also like to know why they leave Montreal. After talking about how terrific it is in the city, how vital it is, they all leave. I'd like to start from there. If I could keep a university-trained person who comes from outside Quebec in Quebec, I'd have 50% of my battle done. But I don't know the answer to that. Maybe that's something that should be looked at. Nobody's really examined that in any detail. It's something we should take advantage of. We have a--

[Translation]

privileged clientele, if you will, in Montreal. But are foreign students leaving? I don't know.

    The Chair: Ms. Allard, you have the floor. Then I will ask a couple of questions.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I do not want to take up too much of the witnesses' time.

    To answer your question, Mr. Rabinovitch, did you try to find out how much French these people speak? You said they come from abroad to study at McGill, but that they leave again. Could the fact that they don't speak French well be a major reason why they decide to leave?

[English]

    Mr. Joseph Rabinovitch: Absolutely, that's my sense.

º  (1630)  

[Translation]

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I have another question. Our colleague from Manitoba said that 4% of the citizens in his province are francophones. Obviously, small francophone communities outside Quebec are afraid of losing their language and culture. But since you said that English is the language of the world, how can anglophones really feel threatened? It's hardly believable that anglophones living in Quebec are afraid of losing their language and culture, because the entire world speaks English. So, what is your motivation? Do you want more money, or is there something else? What are you looking for?

[English]

    Mr. Martin Murphy: You're absolutely right, it's not a question of losing the English language, it's a question of our English-language institutions. Once the school goes, so goes the community. In the small areas of the province, as the population declines, the school goes, then the English-speaking community in these little pockets throughout disappear very quickly. So what we're looking for is support for the infrastructure, for the community organizations that are working now to encourage and support and develop leadership. That is one proposition among many. I'm sure you will have others as well. We don't have all the answers, but we see that, certainly, as being a very important one immediately to give some hope and encouragement, to arrest the bleeding that's taking place. It's very serious.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

    I won't ask Mr. Rabinovitch this question, because he's Montreal-focused. I'm originally from a small town in northern Ontario, and I guess I'm an example of the situation. I migrated, if you will, to Ottawa, where I make my home now. The concern is the vitality of the smaller francophone rural communities. Is that a concern QCGN has for Quebec as well?

    Mr. Martin Murphy: For the English-speaking minority communities in the province, absolutely. We made reference before to the fact that people tend to focus their attention on Montreal and say, you have your institutions, what are you complaining about? You're very well off. But the moment you go off the island of Montreal, you will find experiences that are as difficult as those being experienced by our French-speaking friends in other provinces throughout the nation, isolation, fragmentation, etc.

    The Chair: Are there any efforts by members of your organization to focus on immigration initiatives in the regions of Quebec, if I can use that expression?

    Mr. Martin Murphy: They are doing it to a very modest degree. I made reference to an ambitious project initiated by the Voice of English-speaking Quebec in Quebec City. It's working very well, and that may be a model that will be transferred and emulated. But please remember that with a total of $3 million for all of us in the province, the coasters and the people in the Saguenay--Lac-Saint-Jean and in the Gaspé don't have much money left, when they have an executive and an office and a secretary, to take advantage of opportunities, to get the pulse of what's going on, and to try to respond to the needs of that particular community. Unfortunately, they don't have the wherewithal, the funds, to do these other things that now have to be done, including having some measures that are going to encourage development of leadership within that community.

    The Chair: The Minister of Immigration has created an advisory body in the francophone population outside Quebec to look at the situation and find ways of addressing and perhaps initiating projects to attract immigrants who are French-speaking or who would be prepared to learn French in some communities. Manitoba, as my colleague Mr. Simard said, has been very active on that front. Is there an equivalent advisory group for the anglophone community in Quebec?

    Mr. Martin Murphy: I don't want to offend anyone, but I have to pause and think a while to answer your question.

º  (1635)  

    The Chair: You would know.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: I should know.

    The Chair: Okay. If not, perhaps that's one of the areas we can look at as a committee.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: Yes, certainly. I'm aware of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne initiative in immigration here recently. There was a conference in Montreal on diversity and immigration and so forth. We had very little to say about that, because we weren't really very directly involved in it. The answer, pretty well, is no.

    The Chair: All right. We can look at that.

    If any of the groups in the network has information and experience they would like us to know about, would you kindly invite them to send it to us, so we can distribute it?

    Second, one concern I have, and it's becoming more than a concern now governments are actually addressing the issue, is establishing equivalency with degrees and so on. We've had professionals, people who are trained, come to Canada, only to be told, sorry, but we don't recognize your diploma, your degree, or your professional training. I'm not asking for an answer today, but in your continuing efforts to address this matter of immigration, would you mind looking at that issue? I'll give you an example. In psychiatry there's a national body that will try to make it easier to establish equivalency, but that effort, for francophones, is apparently going nowhere. So this is a double problem. Once we start recognizing equivalencies, apparently, some of the groups that are doing that on behalf of the Government of Canada or on behalf of the provinces are only doing it in one language. That may be something you wish to be mindful of.

    I think I've generated a question or a comment. Monsieur Simard.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: You may have generated a question. Do you have any relationship with the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne? Do you guys share information?

    Mr. Martin Murphy: It's very spasmodic. Mr. Arès, the president, was in Montreal last week, and I took the occasion to have a meeting with him and begin to increase our communication between groups.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I was going to recommend that.

    The Chair: I assure you, Mr. Murphy, our relationship will not be as sporadic as it has been or as tenuous as it has been. We would like to make sure, whenever we reach out to receive opinions and suggestions from the community, your organization, QCGN, is invited, as we have invited FCFA in the past.

    Thank you very much, both of you, for being here today.

    Mr. Martin Murphy: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen. I hope our contribution today is helpful to you. Be assured that I will respond to the two particular questions you have tabled. That's very helpful, and it's appreciated.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    We'll take a break just to change the name plates. We'll be right back with Madame Adam.

º  (1636)  

---

º  (1639)  

º  (1640)  

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ladies and gentlemen, let's proceed with our deliberations. We have the pleasure of once again receiving the Official Languages Commissioner, Ms. Dyane Adam.

    Since you know how the committee works, Ms. Adam, I would ask you to begin.

    Ms. Dyane Adam (Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon.

    Thank you for inviting me once again to address the issue of citizenship and immigration. It seems we are continuing with the same subject. Every time I come to speak to you, I feel that we are able to make some good progress. As you said, Mr. Chairman, I also feel that things are happening, especially in the area of immigration.

    I have picked out three main points which, I think, deserve our particular attention at this time. The first point concerns the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the recommendations I have made so that the principles of the act become reality.

    The second point concerns Bill C-18, the new Citizenship Act.

    The third point I would like to address today puts immigration and citizenship in a wider perspective. My Office has launched a new initiative called “Duality and Diversity”, and I will talk a bit about it at the end of my presentation.

    Let me start with our new immigration legislation. About a year ago, Parliament was busy discussing many aspects of immigration. Every time Parliament is busy, that usually keeps me quite occupied too. Since I feel more and more strongly that the Office of the Official Languages Commissioner should be an agent of change, and since I want it to carefully monitor the situation as per its mandate, this means that the commissioner must closely monitor the legislation and regulations which Parliament adopts, in order to intervene sooner rather than later.

    Back then, at the time the draft immigration bill was tabled, I expressed my belief that we needed some firm commitment on the part of the government on two fronts: the new act should make sure that both official language communities in Canada draw equal benefits from immigration and immigrants should be given full credit for knowing our two official languages.

    I published a study on this topic almost exactly a year ago, and this study left no doubt: the demographics of immigration are deeply unfavourable to the French-speaking population in Canada.

    A little earlier, our witnesses spoke about immigration and how it affects Quebec's anglophone minority. I can come back on that later, if you wish. I will address that issue during question period, but my observations today will mostly deal with francophone immigration.

    I was nevertheless happy to see that you and your colleagues, as well as the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the Prime Minister, were open to my recommendations and that the act was amended accordingly. That's all very well and good, but where do we stand one year after the new bill was passed?

    Now that the new immigration legislation is in force, I have published another study. It suggests the next steps.

[English]

So let me briefly review its findings and recommendations.

    Finding number one is that francophone communities in Canada have only one-quarter the number of immigrants anglophone communities have. At a time when immigration is essential to our country's future, this kind of imbalance is unacceptable. So my first recommendation is that the federal government should set itself targets for the number of newcomers to be settled and retained in anglophone and francophone communities, and it must be able to monitor whether these targets are reached. The federal government should also increase the capacity of minority communities to receive and integrate newcomers. Immigration is a two-way process, and our communities have not traditionally acted as host communities, so we need to give them the necessary resources to change that and help them realize the advantage immigration holds for them, and for Canada as a whole.

    A second finding of our study was that something is wrong if immigrants arrive in Canada believing Canada is so bilingual that they can find work and obtain services in both official languages across the country, I believe our previous witnesses did mention this to you as an issue. But there is also the opposite case: there are francophone immigrants who believe French is spoken only in Quebec and don't know, for example, that they can send their children to French schools in every Canadian province and territory. So wrong information clearly leads to disappointment and lost opportunities for immigrants and communities.

º  (1645)  

[Translation]

    My second recommendation is therefore the following. Immigrants need to receive better and more realistic information about our minority communities.

    I have suggested that a website be created as an interactive communication tool. Canada Heritage and Citizenship and Immigration Canada are working on it, but I feel we need to encourage them to bring this project to quick fruition.

    Finding number three: Citizenship and Immigration Canada has signed provincial nominee agreements with nine provinces and territories. These agreements give the provinces the power to select their own immigrants. More than 2,700 immigrants come to Canada under these agreements each year; 1,500 are selected by Manitoba alone.

    My third recommendation is this: every time a provincial nominee agreement is signed or renewed, the federal government must ensure that a commitment is made to safeguard the interests of minority communities.

    An agreement signed with Nova Scotia last year was the first one with a specific clause that talks about participation by the francophone community in the recruitment of provincially selected immigrants. Manitoba and Saskatchewan modified their agreements in this direction last year too. That is a positive development, but we have to make sure that this trend continues. A new agreement with British Columbia will be signed in the spring. Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, Alberta and the Yukon will negotiate new agreements next year.

    Finding number four: we know that one of the problems of immigration in Canada today is that many immigrants cannot work in their profession because they are having a hard time being accredited in Canada. We must make sure that any solutions to this problem will also be solutions that benefit the minority communities. Let me give you an example: under the provincial nominee program, Manitoba has recruited some nurses from the Philippines to ease its shortage of health care workers. But the shortage of health care workers also affects the francophone community. We should therefore also look at recruiting nurses from French-speaking source countries and we must ensure that they, too, are accepted into their profession. Of course I am not mentioning the Government of Manitoba to single it out, but simply as an example. This same situation exists throughout the country and for other health professionals.

    My fourth recommendation is therefore the following: immigrants must not be penalized if their qualifications are in the official language of the minority community.

º  (1650)  

[English]

    As you see, these are very concrete ways to make progress, and my office is very closely following the work of the new steering committee. The steering committee was created last year and is a joint committee of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and francophone minority communities. Its purpose is to help the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration find concrete ways to attract and integrate more francophone immigrants--by the way, no such committee exists for the English speaking community, as was asked previously by one member of the committee. The francophone committee is currently working on an action plan. One option being considered is the role foreign students at francophone colleges and universities can play. Many of them are interested in staying in Canada after their studies, and we should find ways to help them.

    Let me give you a personal example. In November of last year I met with a francophone organization in Ontario to find out how the increasing number of francophone immigrants is affecting them. At this meeting I listened to a representative of the Sudbury campus of Collège Boréal. Collège Boréal shows what is possible. Not only has it recruited a number of professors from a variety of francophone countries around the world, it is also actively recruiting francophone students from abroad and has established educational partnerships with colleges in France and Tunisia. I believe post-secondary institutions like Collège Boréal should talk to their students about the opportunities of staying and becoming part of the official language minority community. In my former role as principal of Glendon College, the bilingual campus of York University in Toronto, I could see the potential immigrants have for building open and more international francophone communities, but at that time, as we know, these students could not really ask for status for citizenship at that time as immigrants. I believe this has changed now.

    What we need are immigrants who can function in both official languages. I'm talking here about immigrants who are getting established in our minority communities. Most of us who come from minority communities know we need to be bilingual. To be successful, our immigrants too should be able to function in both official languages, but their preferred first official language should be that of the minority community.

º  (1655)  

[Translation]

After all, bilingualism is what gives our minority communities a competitive edge!

    But in order to help our new francophone immigrants acquire this competitive edge, we need to start thinking outside the box. The Department of Citizenship and Immigration funds English-language classes for immigrants. But these classes are given in organizations where English is a predominant language. What francophone immigrants need, however, is a comfortable and linguistically familiar learning environment like the Collège Boréal. This is the right place for them to get English-language training. It allows them to stay connected with the minority community while becoming competitively bilingual. I think that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration should consider funding minority institutions to meet the language needs of immigrants.

    Let me move on to the second point I would like to raise with you today: the citizenship bill.

    This bill is currently before the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. In December I appeared before your colleagues on the Standing Committee of Citizenship and Immigration to propose certain amendments.

    Every year 160,000 immigrants in Canada are granted citizenship at one of nearly 3,000 ceremonies. A citizenship ceremony is a stirring event for those celebrating it. These new citizens are often accompanied by their friends and family and when they become full-fledged citizens they experience what they describe as being a very significant moment in their lives.

    The citizenship judges, or citizenship commissioners, as they will in future be called, preside over what is a once-in-a-lifetime event. I believe that our linguistic duality should be celebrated more fully during those events.

    My first recommendation to the committee was that a new subsection be added. It should specify that one of the purposes of the act is to foster the recognition of English and French as the official languages of Canada.

    My second recommendation was that linguistic duality be one of the essential Canadian values that are promoted during the ceremony. Consequently, I expressed my desire that a new paragraph be added, stating: [The Citizenship Commissioner] “shall emphasize the equality of English and French as official languages and as a fundamental Canadian value.”

    My third recommendation touched upon the way the citizenship ceremony is conducted. I believe that it is not enough to state during the ceremony that English and French are of equal status. I think there can be no better way to demonstrate a value than to exercise it. To that end, I suggested the following additional subsection: “The Citizenship Commissioner shall ensure that the citizenship ceremony is conducted in both of Canada's official languages.”

[English]

    This last recommendation ought to ensure that citizenship judges have a reasonable proficiency in both official languages. In my view, being sworn in as a new citizen by a commissioner who shows some proficiency in both languages will greatly help to convince new Canadians that speaking English and French is a goal they should set for themselves or their children.

    To go beyond the details of the citizenship ceremony itself, Bill C-18 gives the commissioners the role of promoting active citizenship at the community level. I think it is positive that we are asking them to spend less time on administrative tasks and focus more on going into the communities, but I cannot emphasize enough how it important it will be that they use these contacts with new and established Canadians to promote the fundamental value of linguistic duality. The commissioners must help to ensure that everyone understands the importance of English and French in Canada, especially in parts of the country where our linguistic duality is less obvious.

    The last of the three major points I want to bring up today is a new initiative my office is launching entitled “Duality and Diversity”. We want to create a greater awareness among all Canadians that our linguistic duality and the increasing diversity of our population are interdependent. Looking at the latest census data, we cannot but be amazed at Canadians' origins. Close to one in five Canadians is foreign-born, and one in seven belongs now to a visible minority. There are plenty of places around the world where a demographic shift of this magnitude would be seen as threatening.

    Canada's good fortunes are, in my view, not accidental. They are the result of a particular Canadian disposition towards accommodation and compromise, and it is not difficult to understand where this spirit of accommodation comes from. Our linguistic duality has taught us that if different groups want to live together, they must respect each other. Duality and diversity refer to a particular Canadian perspective on how to build a country. They are based on the conviction that unity does not mean uniformity. We see the openness of Canadians towards bilingualism reflected in opinion polls: 82% of Canadians are in favour of the policy of bilingualism. Two out of three Canadians agree that some French language education should be mandatory in English elementary and high school.

»  (1700)  

[Translation]

    This openness to linguistic duality is echoed in the attitudes of Canadians towards immigration and diversity. A recent international study by the Pew Research Centre compared attitudes towards immigration in 44 countries. The report stated—and I quote—“Only in Canada does a strong majority of the population (77%) have a positive view of immigrants.”

    I won't go into the other statistics, but the countries closest to Canada are at 34%; those are European countries. Canada is truly very different and stands out compared to other countries in terms of its attitude towards immigration. How can we explain this?

    I am convinced that it is our spirit of accommodation that has produced an inclusive social fabric and that at the very outset, when Canada was founded, we chose this Canadian social pact that recognized fundamental differences between two different routes that had two different languages, religions, cultures and histories. Furthermore, that pact formed Canadians' attitudes and ways of being, with the result that today that very same attitude exists towards ethnocultural groups.

    My office is working with Citizenship and Immigration Canada so that we can host special citizenship ceremonies to celebrate the link between duality and diversity. I will myself be speaking and welcoming new citizens at a special ceremony in Toronto in April.

    My office is also establishing links with an increasing number of migration researchers so that we can better understand how Canada can use its linguistic duality to further its immigration goals. I am convinced, for example, that we need to know more about the francophone dimension of international migration. Our linguistic duality does not stop at our borders.

    Allow me, in conclusion, to briefly review my main points.

    First, we have new immigration legislation. We now need to implement the recommendations I have made so that both language communities will finally benefit equally from immigration.

    Second, when immigrants become citizens they should see and share our commitment to linguistic duality. That is why we need the changes I proposed for the Citizenship Act.

    Third, the building of a diverse Canada must continue upon the solid foundation of our two official languages, and we must ensure that Canadians realize the essential connection between duality and diversity.

    Thank you, and Mr. Quell and myself would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

»  (1705)  

    The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Adam. As usual, that was comprehensive.

    Ms. Allard.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Good afternoon, Ms. Adam. This is the first time I have heard one of your presentations. Thank you. My question is about your slogan: “Duality and diversity”.

    I understand that within the framework of official languages duality means two languages, but do you not think that the word “diversity” could be confusing, because when one talks about diversity, when it's also talking about multiculturalism? When you talk to immigrants about multiculturalism and tell them that Canada encourages the protection of their culture, this may mean three languages, sometimes four. In adding the word “diversity”, are you not restricting the word “duality”?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: I don't think so, but one must understand that the first type of Canadian diversity was the choosing of duality, in other words it was born along with our country. Diversity is an inherent characteristic of all societies. What one does with it is probably what defines even further the characteristics of a society. One can choose to deny differences, one can even choose to suppress them, or one can choose to promote them. Canada, from the very outset, more or less chose a path of diversity, which was duality, in other words differences. Canada would be neither English nor French, it would be both. That was the initial choice. One often hears about the two founding peoples and I will come back to that, because the aboriginal people were not included in that initial pact which shaped Canada's history. The consequences of the choice that was made not to include aboriginal people around the table are evident today. When one makes a contract, one is either inclusive or exclusive.

    That Canadian pact included two groups that not only had different languages and cultures, but also different religions and traditions, and we chose to recognize those two groups as distinct and different parts. That is how we defined ourselves and what made our history one of two main welcoming communities, because immigration has also always been a part of our history. There have been waves of immigrants who have joined one or the other of those two main linguistic communities and this is still happening. However, now we're seeing that immigration is changing this path, as it were. The initial duality could be threatened because those two communities are no longer receiving their equal share of immigrants. We know that Quebec and francophone communities truly receive five times fewer immigrants than the anglophone community. This could have future repercussions.

»  (1710)  

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I would put my question more bluntly. Do you think that the multiculturalism policy being encouraged by the Government of Canada can adapt to your bilingualism policy?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: I'm not sure I understand.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: You stated that your goal is to ensure that people are bilingual, yes?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: Yes.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: When a third factor is added, multiculturalism, do you not fear that this multiculturalism policy may stand in the way of your goal of making people bilingual?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: The multiculturalism policy already exists; the federal government has had that policy for a long time. That is not my responsibility, it is that of Canadian Heritage. We have always lived with both policies: the Official Languages Act and the multiculturalism policy. I know there were concerns about that. People wondered if that would work against linguistic duality. Some saw it as a threat. The Official Languages Act is clear: there are two official languages. Is your question whether multiculturalism could lead to other languages becoming...?

    You know, the linguistic communities are very diverse; the censuses have clearly shown that. Denying that kind of reality would amount to not taking those citizens into account. One belongs to the anglophone or francophone group, to one of those two official language communities, but one can have other languages, just as one can belong to other ethnic or cultural groups. I think that is what makes Canada so rich.

    The Chair: Mr. Simard, then Ms. Thibeault. I will take people in the order they have asked to speak.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Ms. Adam.

    In Manitoba, we talk about widening our cultural space, and one of the ways of achieving this, obviously, is through immigration. But as we work on this goal, we are beginning to realize how difficult it is. We face very interesting challenges. For instance, the Department of Immigration has told us that we should carefully choose immigrants who agree to live in rural areas. Of course, this means we have asked many people from French Africa to come, which includes people of colour, of course, as well as people from different cultures and religions. These people are often Muslim. Some Muslims went to live in La Broquerie, which is a small village, and this gave rise to all kinds of problems. That's the reality of the situation. There has to be more awareness with regard to that type of situation.

    One of the problems we are currently dealing with is the fact that people talk about the provision for the furtherance of the francophone community, but this is not necessarily followed up with resources. Provincial representatives tell us that the francophone provision was announced, however, no money is forthcoming. This is of great concern to me. I would like to know if the Minister of Immigration bears a certain share of responsibility, that is, to provide resources to minorities.

    Ms. Dyane Adam: Under the Official Languages Act, the answer is yes, since the federal government is responsible for the development and growth of minority official language communities, and it is clear that there is a direct link between that objective and immigration. The federal government does invest in immigration. Resources are transferred to certain provinces, and the government must ensure that enough resources reach minority communities to help them welcome and integrate new immigrants. As you said, this is a fairly recent phenomenon at the provincial level in minority communities. Our studies have clearly shown that to successfully integrate immigrants into a minority situation, you have to help them along each step of the integration and settlement process. This process begins when immigrants are chosen abroad. They must be given clear information and the communities concerned must be involved in the process.

    The second study I referred to focused on real case histories, which, in our view, were more successful than others. These experiences showed us which resources must be developed or fine-tuned if we want immigrants to settle in as successfully as possible. There is no doubt that the resources have to be there. I think that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration—I believe you will invite the minister—through its joint community-departmental committee, is designing pilot projects to identify which resources must be added or developed within communities in order to put minority official language communities on an equal footing.

    Carsten, would you like to add something?

»  (1715)  

    Mr. Carsten Quell (Senior Agent, Liaison and Part VII, Office of the Official Languages Commissioner): I simply wanted to add that since the last meeting of the steering committee, we have had to wait for Minister Dion's announcement. But up until now, no funding has been set aside to specifically help francophone communities. This should be included in the action plan which we will be working on in the coming months.

    The Chair: It will come out on March 12, as we now know.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: It will be presented by the Prime Minister.

    The Chair: That's right.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I would like to make another comment. I think immigrants are misinformed; for instance, the immigrants we receive expect to be able to survive in French in Manitoba. But in reality, if you don't speak English in Manitoba, you won't survive and you won't find a job. So, it is our responsibility to tell people the facts before they come. Immigrants told me this. They get here and they are taken aback. So I think we have to remedy the situation.

    For our part, I believe the University College of Saint-Boniface has begun offering classes in English to help integrate immigrants as quickly as possible, because if we don't do it, there is no way they will stay. I simply wanted to reinforce what you said. Thank you.

    The Chair: Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    Let's talk about immigration agreements between the federal government and the provinces. To your knowledge, do these agreements talk about who is responsible for official languages? Let's include Quebec in this debate, if you will. Do you know whether the provinces are aware of their responsibilities in this matter?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: In my opening statement, I said that the first agreement recognizing that reality was signed with Manitoba. The most recent agreements signed by Minister Coderre all include a language clause. But I don't think that's enough and I think that the department should set targets and develop a mechanism to see whether they have been met.

    As for Quebec, I think that...

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: There is no mention of Quebec.

    Ms. Dyane Adam: Quebec really has full jurisdiction, except perhaps in the case of refugees and family reunification. They were given these powers many years ago, in the 1970s, I believe.

»  (1720)  

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Let me repeat that in my experience, the relationship between the Departments of Immigration of Quebec and Canada, at least in our ridings, are excellent. I've never heard of Quebec's immigration department telling immigrants who only spoke English that they were not welcome.

    Ms. Dyane Adam: The first study we conducted on immigration with regard to Quebec's minority community revealed that there was no problem finding English-speaking immigrants. There is a large pool of English-speaking immigrants who come to Quebec, and this proportion is greater than the English-French ratio in Quebec. But as the witnesses said a little earlier, these immigrants do not necessarily stay. The province has a low retention rate.

    According to the study, the learning and teaching of French in Quebec was a problem. You may want to take a closer look at this issue.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: I would also like to add something. Of course, you can't force immigrants to live in one place rather than another or to speak one language rather than another. I don't know how you could convince an immigrant from a French-speaking country to stay in a francophone community. Too often, I've seen immigrants from France, for instance, well-educated, bilingual people, who generally did not want to live in Quebec. They moved on to Toronto or Vancouver. You can't force people to do something they don't want to do.

    Ms. Dyane Adam: I think there is a link between the statements made by Mr. Rabinovitch and Mr. Murphy and your question. They said that Quebec, unfortunately, had an immigration deficit which can in large part be explained for economic reasons. No doubt about it, studies are unanimous in concluding that the economy is the main reason people will come.

    Many francophones who have come here through Quebec ended up in Toronto or Vancouver, or in other provinces, such as Alberta. If they are leaving Quebec, it is for economic reasons. I certainly hope that these francophones will at least try to connect with minority francophone communities. But this is a problem, because there may not be enough resources to enable these francophones to become full-fledged members of their local francophone community and to contribute to it while they are working or looking for work. That's the nub of the problem. It's hard to keep them, even in the francophone communities they happen to be in.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you.

    The Chair: If you don't mind, Ms. Adam, I would like to quickly address three issues.

    With regard to Bill C-18, for which you have proposed amendments, have you heard anything from the committee?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: We have not received any official feedback, but I can tell you what my impression is. I think most recommendations were received fairly favourably. The recommendation which seemed to be the most problematic—but this may have changed—was the one calling for commissioners to be bilingual or bilingual enough to...

»  (1725)  

    The Chair: How many commissioners are there in all?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: I think there are about 30 across the country. So, when someone on the committee said they feared that highly competent people would be denied this job, I responded that we are not talking about thousands of people, but of about 30, and that each province surely has enough sufficiently bilingual people, who also have all of the other qualities and skills needed to become citizenship judges or commissioners.

    The Chair: Fine.

    With regard to the recommendations you shared with us, I imagine you would have no problem with the committee deciding to adopt them, should that be its decision?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: Of course not, quite the opposite.

    The Chair: Fine.

    Then there is the issue of funding—it was briefly alluded to—and the issue with regard to agreements. I would like to know if the commissioner has an information sheet on existing agreements containing provisions for funding provided by the provinces or territories. I don't know whether this type of work already has been done. If so, would you share it with us? That way, we would not have to do the work. If not, I think it may be a good idea for us to ask the minister or our researcher to provide us with this information. But if you already have this information, we would not have to do the work.

    Given the questions asked by Ms. Thibeault, I think it may be a good idea to know which provinces or territories have signed such agreements, when they were signed, when they expire, which language provisions they contain and what resources are provided for under each agreement or parallel to each agreement. Does this information exist?

    Mr. Carsten Quell: It does exist and you can find it on CIC's website. It includes a list of every agreement that has been signed.

    The Chair: With copies and analyses?

    Mr. Carsten Quell: No. But we can provide you with that information.

    The Chair: That would be very useful and I think that our researcher would also appreciate receiving it.

    I have no further questions. Anyone else?

    Ms. Allard.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I would like to come back to the slogan “Duality and diversity”. Did you conduct some type of study before adopting it or did you just decide to go ahead with it?

    Ms. Dyane Adam: The Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages does not have a slogan called “Duality and diversity”. In fact, it's not a slogan. Please understand that our mandate covers several sectors, including immigration, which is the issue we are discussing, because of our work with minority official language communities. We want them to see that there is an advantage to their welcoming immigrants.

    I think that a little earlier a member said that the federal government is not the only one responsible for ensuring that communities have as many resources as possible to help integrate immigrants. There are communities in some parts of the country which have never even been exposed to it. These communities have to understand that, since our birth rate is too low, the only way to maintain and grow the population today is largely through immigration. They have to see the connection and our mandate includes promotion and education within our communities. Perhaps we were not clear enough in explaining the importance of these functions in our mandate, but that does not change the issue.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I just wanted to know if it had been tested by a focus group or if you had simply thought up those two words without seeing how the public would react.

    Ms. Dyane Adam: We're doing tests. I don't know how many presentations I make each year, but there are many, and this type of slogan, if you will, creates a connection. The commissioner's pin, as you can see, represents the social fabric of Canada. For several years now, we have made the following connection: Canada's social fabric is made up of two entities, of two language groups. A fabric has many threads and each of these groups has different ethnic and cultural roots. When two communities meet, everyone is the richer for the experience. That's why we have a golden triangle in the middle, as we explained. So, this is also part of what I would call the commissioner's slogan: our richness lies in our duality and in our diversity and not in uniformity.

»  (1730)  

    The Chair: If you'll allow me, Ms. Allard, I will make a comment which may trigger a debate. You have reminded me of an experience I had three or four years ago at a political fundraising dinner, I admit. The theme was the Liberal mosaic. We invited Minister Dhaliwal. The event brought together Ottawa's Indian and Pakistani communities and Mr. Dhaliwal's speech was very interesting. I was touched by what he said. He expounded on his subject for much longer than I will this evening, which is that Canada is open to immigrants and to diversity—this is specifically the word he used—due in part to its linguistic duality. He recognized that his community had certain rights, that his community had benefited from a certain degree of openness, and that this was mostly due to the francophone community, which had to fight for some of its rights, and that this daily battle, this effort, had contributed to building a country which also valued diversity. Therefore, I think that in this case, you could say that both diversity—or multiculturalism, if you prefer—and linguistic duality can help us not only to live together, but to reinforce each others' strengths.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I just wanted to know why these two words had been chosen. If you asked me to adopt them as a slogan, I would want to know whether they had been taken out of a hat or chosen after much research and reflection.

    Ms. Dyane Adam: The commissioner is very open to spontaneity, but it usually thinks before it acts.

    The Chair: Ms. Adam and Mr. Quell, thank you once more for being here and for sharing your thoughts. We will take them into consideration when we draft our report.

    On Wednesday, we will hear from representatives of Statistics Canada on immigration. Next Monday, unless there are any changes, we will hear from the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the following Wednesday we will hear from members of the steering committee which was mentioned today. It is, in fact, the advisory committee the department created to study matters affecting francophone communities.

    Have a nice evening. The meeting is adjourned.