AANR Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 74

Wednesday, May 14, 2003

The Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources met at 3:31 p.m. this day, in Room 269, West Block, the Chair, Raymond Bonin, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Raymond Bonin, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Julian Reed, Maurice Vellacott.

Acting Members present: Bernard Bigras for Yvan Loubier, Joe Comartin for Pat Martin, Alan Tonks for Gérard Binet, Joe McGuire for Anita Neville, Pierre Paquette for Serge Cardin, John Bryden for Benoît Serré, Roy Cullen for John Godfrey, Jocelyne Girard-Bujold for Yvan Loubier, John Maloney for Julian Reed.

In attendance: From the Committees Branch: Bill Farrell, Committee Clerk; Jeffrey LeBlanc, Legislative Clerk. From the Library of Parliament: Mary Hurley, Analyst.

Witnesses: From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Warren Johnson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services; Geneviève Thériault, Senior Counsel.

Pursuant to its Order of Reference of Monday, October 7, 2002, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-7, An Act respecting leadership selection, administration and accountability of Indian bands, and to make related amendments to other Acts (See Minutes of Proceedings, Monday, January 27, 2003, Meeting No. 14).

The Committee resumed Clause-by-Clause consideration of the Bill.

On Clause 32,

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 32, be amended by adding after line 5 on page 19 the following:

“(3) Regulations made under subsection (1) shall be automatically referred to the Standing Committee for recommendations.”

Debate arose thereon.

Bernard Bigras moved – That the amendment be amended by replacing the expression “Committee for recommendation” with the following:

“Committee, which shall examine them with representatives of the First Nation concerned and make recommendations"

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Bernard Bigras, Joe Comartin (3)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Joe McGuire, Julian Reed (7)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

Debate arose thereon.

Joe Comartin moved – That the amendment be amended by adding the following:

“of which members of the affected communities make up at least 50% of the membership”

The Chairman ruled the proposed sub-amendment out of order on the grounds that only Parliament itself can make the determination respecting the composition of Parliamentary Committees. It cannot be accomplished by statute alone.      

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Bernard Bigras, Joe Comartin (3)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Joe McGuire, Julian Reed (7)

The Chair called, “Shall Clause 32, as amended, carry?”

After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Joe McGuire, Julian Reed (7)

NAYS: Bernard Bigras, Joe Comartin (2)

Accordingly, Clause 32, as amended, carried.

On new Clause 32.1

Joe Comartin moved, --

That Bill C-7 be amended by adding after line 5 on page 19 the following new clause:

“32.1 Regulations made under section 32 do not apply to a band unless the band adopts those regulations by a vote of its eligible voters conducted in the same manner as a vote for the adoption of a code under section 4.”

Debate arose thereon.

At 5:00 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 5:01 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Bernard Bigras moved – That the amendment be amended by adding, at the end of Clause 32.1, the following:

“and in accordance with their customs and traditions”

At 5:30 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 5:33 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the sub-amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Pierre Paquette, Bernard Bigras, Joe Comartin (3)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Joe McGuire, Julian Reed, John Bryden (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Pierre Paquette, Joe Comartin (2)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Joe McGuire, Julian Reed, John Bryden (8)

New Clause 32.1 was negatived.

On Clause 33,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 33, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 10 on page 19 with the following:

Other regulations

33. The Governor in Council may make regulations

(a) specifying, for the purposes of subsection 10(3),

(i) powers that may be exercised in carrying out an assessment of a band's financial position, including the power to require that access be given to bank accounts, documents and computer files,

(ii) what constitutes a deterioration of a band's financial health that compromises the delivery of essential programs and services, and

(iii) remedial measures that may be required to be taken, including the imposition of a manager selected by the Minister to manage the financial affairs of the band, and the time limits within which those measures must be taken;

(b) providing that the powers conferred by subsection 10(3) do not affect any right exercisable under a funding agreement with a band;

(c) authorizing the Minister to withhold funds otherwise payable to a band until remedial measures have been taken;

(d) specifying the circumstances under which the council of a band may withhold amounts under section 13, the maximum amounts that may be withheld and the procedure to be followed in doing so;

(e) respecting the disposal, burning or processing of waste or other noxious substances on reserve lands, including regulations

(i) authorizing the Minister to issue a permit to do so, subject to any conditions that may be specified in the permit,

(ii) defining "waste" and "noxious substance", and

(iii) providing that a contravention of the regulations constitutes an offence punishable on summary conviction by a fine not exceeding $300,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months, or by both; and

(f) establishing procedures for the submission of codes and band laws to, and for the operation of, the national registry referred to in subsection 30(2).

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was adopted on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Stan Dromisky, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, John Bryden (7)

NAYS: Pierre Paquette, Joe Comartin (2)

The Chair called, “Shall Clause 33, as amended, carry?”

Debate arose thereon.

At 6:16 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 6:35 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the motion.

After debate, Clause 33, as amended, carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Stan Dromisky, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, John Bryden (7)

NAYS: Pierre Paquette, Joe Comartin (2)

On Clause 34,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 34, be amended by

(a) replacing line 11 on page 19 with the following:

Pending self-government agreements

34. (1) The Governor in Council may, by order

(b) adding after line 18 on page 19 the following:

Application of Indian Act

(2) An order exempting a band under subsection (1) shall provide that the provisions of the Indian Act repealed or amended by this Act that are specified in the order continue to apply to the band, during the period of exemption, as if those provisions had not been repealed or amended.

Debate arose thereon.

Pierre Paquette moved – That the amendment be amended by adding, after sub-clause (2), the following:

“(3) Any decision or policy in this regard shall be based on true consultation with the first nations concerned”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Pierre Paquette, Joe Comartin (2)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Bryden, Maurice Vellacott (7)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

Debate arose thereon.

Joe Comartin moved – That the amendment be amended by replacing the word “shall” with “may”.

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Pierre Paquette, Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Joe Comartin (3)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Bryden, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Bryden, Maurice Vellacott (8)

NAYS: Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Joe Comartin (2)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 34, be amended by replacing line 12 on page 19 with the following:

“made during the period of three years beginning”

Debate arose thereon.

Joe Comartin moved – That the amendment be amended by adding after the word “beginning” the following:

“with further three year extension upon the request of the First Nation accompanied by a statement of efforts made to that time to advance self-government”

Ruling by the Chair.

The Chairman ruled out the sub-amendment on account that it would make the amendment incomprehensible.

Whereupon Joe Comartin appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question “Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?” was put.

YEAS: 7

NAYS: 2

Debate resumed on the amendment.

Debate arose thereon.

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold moved – That the amendment be amended by replacing the words “three years” with the following:

“five years”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Joe Comartin (2)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Maloney, John Bryden (7)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Alan Tonks, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Maloney, John Bryden, Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Joe Comartin (9)

NAYS: (0)

The Chair called, “Shall Clause 34, as amended, carry?”

After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Alan Tonks, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Maloney, John Bryden (7)

NAYS: Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Joe Comartin (2)

Accordingly, Clause 34, as amended, carried.

On Clause 35,

Joe Comartin moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 35, be amended

(a) by replacing, in the English version, line 28 on page 19 with the following:

“Act;”

(b) by replacing, in the English version, line 31 on page 19 with the following:

“Act; or”

(c) by adding after line 31 on page 19 the following:

“(e) any band or first nation who is a party to or is included in a treaty or agreement with the Government of Canada providing for self-government.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Joe Comartin (2)

NAYS: Alan Tonks, Stan Dromisky, Roy Cullen, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, John Maloney, John Bryden (8)

At 8:57 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Elizabeth B. Kingston

Clerk of the Committee