AANR Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 68

Monday, May 5, 2003

The Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources met in a televised session at 9:07 a.m. this day, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, the Chair, Raymond Bonin, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Gérard Binet, Raymond Bonin, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Maurice Vellacott.

Acting Members present: Massimo Pacetti for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Derek Lee for Stan Dromisky, John O’Reilly for John Godfrey, Dick Proctor for Pat Martin, Serge Marcil for Julian Reed, Paul Crête for Yvan Loubier; Libby Davies for Pat Martin, Marcel Proulx for Stan Dromisky, Réal Ménard for Yvan Loubier, Judi Longfield for Benoît Serré, Mark Assad for John Godfrey, Réal Ménard for Serge Cardin, Beth Phinney for Stan Dromisky, Roy Cullen for Anita Neville, John Maloney for John Godfrey.

In attendance: From the Committees Branch: Joann Garbig, Susan Baldwin, Jeffrey LeBlanc and Jean-Michel Roy, Legislative Clerks; Richard Dupuis and Danielle Parent-Bélisle, Committee Clerks.

In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Jean-Luc Bourdages; Mary Hurley, and Katharine Dunkley, Analysts.

Witnesses: From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Warren Johnson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services; Andrew Beynon, General Counsel; Paul Salembier, Senior Counsel.

Pursuant to its Order of Reference of Monday, October 7, 2002, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-7, An Act respecting leadership selection, administration and accountability of Indian bands, and to make related amendments to other Acts (See Minutes of Proceedings, Monday, January 27, 2003, Meeting No. 14).

The Committee resumed Clause-by-Clause consideration of the Bill.

On Clause 17,

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by replacing lines 3 to 7 on page 12 with the following:

“(a) the protection, conservation and management of natural resources within the band’s reserve, including wildlife and fish, and the disposition for personal and commercial use of natural resources, other than resources that can only be”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Réal Ménard, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Mark Assad, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 9 on page 12 with the following:

mercial use of soil, sand, gravel, clay, marl, peat, timber, mushrooms, plants and plant products;

Pat Martin moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding the following after “plants and plant products”:

“oil, natural gas, copper, diamonds, nickel, gold, silver, asbestos, molybdenum, zinc, iron or uranium, fish, wildlife, game, and any other minerals of commercial value.”

Following debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Réal Ménard, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield (7)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed (6)

NAYS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

Yvan Loubier moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by deleting lines 35 to 38 on page 12.

Pat Martin moved – That the amendment be further amended by inserting the words:

“h) persons whose names have been deleted from the band list;”

The Chairman ruled the proposed sub-amendment out of order on the grounds that it did not relate directly to the amendment as proposed.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by adding after line 46 on page 12 the following:

“(1.1) The power of a band council to make laws under subsection (1) does not

(a) abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada or the protection accorded to such rights under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982; and

(b) does not limit any authority which may be vested in the band council by virtue of the inherent right of self-government of an aboriginal people.”

Yvan Loubier moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding the following:

“c) does not limit any powers of the chiefs under a treaty”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Judi Longfield (6)

Debate continued on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield (8)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by deleting lines 1 to 5 on page 13.

Pat Martin moved – That the Committee adjourn until such time as Paul Martin, M.P., indicates his intentions with respect to the Bill.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 8

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 8

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 5 on page 13 with the following:

“(2) In the event of an irreconcilable conflict between a law made pursuant to an authority vested by this section and an Act of Parliament or any regulations made under this Act or the Indian Act, the conflict shall be resolved through a conflict resolution mechanism negotiated between the band and the Minister.”

On motion of Charles Hubbard, it was agreed – That the Committee suspend its sitting until 3:15 p.m. this day.

At 1:57 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 3:22 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the amendment of Pat Martin.

Yvan Loubier moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding after the word “Minister” the following:

“and the result of the resolution tabled in Parliament and referred to the appropriate Committee.”

On motion of Maurice Vellacott, it was agreed by unanimous consent – That the Committee suspend until 5 minutes after the vote in the House.

At 3:54 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 4:27 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the sub-amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott (1)

NAYS : Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (10)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott (1)

NAYS : Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (10)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by replacing lines 4 and 5 on page 13 with the following:

“Act or the Indian Act, the law made under this section prevails to the extent of the conflict.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS : Gérard Binet,  John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 17, be amended by adding after line 5 on page 13 the following:

Disposition of timber

(3) Notwithstanding subsection (2), while a band law in relation to the disposition of timber from reserve lands is in force, regulations respecting the cutting of timber made under section 57 of the Indian Act do not apply in respect of those lands.

Disposition of resources

(4) Notwithstanding subsection (2), while a band law is in force that relates to the disposition from reserve lands of soil, sand, gravel, clay, marl, peat, timber, mushrooms, plants or plant products, subsection 58(4) of the Indian Act does not apply in respect of their disposition from those lands.

Removal of resources

(5) Notwithstanding subsection (2), while a band law is in force that relates to the removal from reserve lands of a resource referred to in section 93 of the Indian Act, that section does not apply in respect of its removal from those lands or its possession.

Trespassing

(6) Notwithstanding subsection (2), while a band law is in force that relates to trespassing on the band's reserve, section 30 and paragraph 31(1)(c) of the Indian Act do not apply in respect of that reserve.

Moneys derived from resources

(7) Moneys derived from the disposition under a band law of a resource referred to in subsection (4) are not Indian moneys for the purposes of the Indian Act or public money for the purposes of the Financial Administration Act.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to by a show of hands.

YEAS: 8

NAYS: 2

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7 be amended by adding after line 5 on page 13 the following:

Laws re inspections

17.1 A band law made under section 16 or 17 for the regulation of an activity on reserve lands may provide for the inspection by a band enforcement officer of any place on reserve lands in which that activity is carried on.

Pat Martin moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding the following:

“a band law made under section 16 or 17 for the regulation of an activity on reserve lands which provides for inspection by a band enforcement officer must be subject to a community based approval process.”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 1

NAYS: 8

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Beth Phinney, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Roy Cullen, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield (8)

NAYS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier (2)

After debate, Clause 17, as amended, carried on division.

On Clause 18,

Yvan Loubier moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 18, subsection (1) be amended by replacing lines 6 and 7 with the following:

“(1) The existing inherent Aboriginal right of self-government, includes legislative authority for band purposes in relation to”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin  (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Roy Cullen, Benoît Serré, Maurice Vellacott (7)

At 7:45 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 8:05 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 18, be amended by adding after line 30 on page 13 the following:

“(1.1) The power of a band council to make laws under subsection (1) does not

(a) abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada or the protection accorded to such rights under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982; and

(b) does not limit any authority which may be vested in the band council by virtue of the inherent right of self-government of an aboriginal people.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin  (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Beth Phinney, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Roy Cullen, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (9)      

 Yvan Loubier moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 18, be amended by deleting lines 1 to 6 on page 14.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS : Gérard Binet, Beth Phinney, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Roy Cullen, Julian Reed, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (9)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 18, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 6 on page 14 with the following:

“(3) In the event of an irreconcilable conflict between a law made pursuant to an authority vested by this section and an Act of Parliament, any regulations under this Act that are applicable to the band or any code adopted by the band, the conflict shall be resolved through a conflict resolution mechanism negotiated between the band and the Minister.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Marcel Proulx, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 18, be amended by replacing lines 5 and 6 on page 14 with the following:

“by the band, the law made under this section prevails to the extent of the conflict.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Libby Davies (2)

NAYS: Marcel Proulx, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Judy Longfield (6)

Clause 18 carried on division.

On Clause 19,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 19, be amended by replacing line 7 on page 14 with the following:

Contravention of band laws

19. (1) A band law made under section 16 or 17 may provide that a

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to by a show of hands.

YEAS: 8

NAYS: 3

Paul Crête moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 19, be amended by replacing line 10 on page 14 with the following:

“conviction by a fine not exceeding $15,000 or”

Libby Davies moved – That the amendment be further amended by replacing “not exceeding $15,000” with the following:

“deemed appropriate by the band.”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Paul Crête, Libby Davies (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Marcel Proulx, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Réal Ménard, Judi Longfield (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Paul Crête, Dick Proctor (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Marcel Proulx, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Serge Marcil, Judi Longfield, Maurice Vellacott (9)

Paul Crête moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 19, be amended by replacing line 11 on page 14 with the following:

“a term of imprisonment not exceeding six”

Dick Proctor moved – That the amendment be further amended by replacing “not exceeding six” with the following:

“deemed appropriate by the band”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Paul Crête, Dick Proctor (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Derek Lee, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Massimo Pacetti, Anita Neville, Serge Marcil, Maurice Vellacott (8)

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Paul Crête, Dick Proctor (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Derek Lee, John Maloney, Charles Hubbard, Massimo Pacetti, Anita Neville, Serge Marcil, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 19, be amended by replacing lines 15 and 16 on page 14 with the following:

of a band law made under paragraph 16(1)(e) or 17(1)(a) or (b) may be

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was carried.

At 12:28 a.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 12:57 a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Elizabeth B. Kingston

Clerk of the Committee