SCYR Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON CHILDREN AND YOUTH AT RISK OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND THE STATUS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

SOUS-COMITÉ DES ENFANTS ET JEUNES À RISQUE DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DES RESSOURCES HUMAINES ET DE LA CONDITION DES PERSONNES HANDICAPÉES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, November 7, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.)): We have a quorum, so let me begin in the hope that this will produce a tremendous discipline for those who haven't yet shown up.

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In welcoming everybody, I also want to acknowledge the presence of some very important people from the Aboriginal Sports Circle. The Aboriginal Sports Circle, which is involved with Sport Canada, has been doing some really good work with young people in this area, so we're delighted to welcome them. We want to acknowledge publicly that we'd be very pleased to see them frequently.

We agreed last week that we would be beginning a study on aboriginal children and youth, and by that we mean the population from 0 to 12, roughly, although we're not being too programmatic about it. We also agreed that we needed to have a scene-setting piece—which is what today is about—and that when we return after Remembrance Day week, we will start to look at individual government departments and programs, with a view to seeing how they all hang together and how their programs relate to the description we're going to be getting from our visitors today.

I want to thank everybody here from the Library of Parliament and from the clerk's office for helping to put this program together in very short order. I also want to thank our guests for responding in jig time for what was a pretty short assignment.

Let me not tarry any further. Let me just introduce our witnesses, who come respectively from Statistics Canada, Dr. Doug Norris—who is accompanied by some associates to whom he may be referring, or who may be here just to make sure he behaves, I don't know—and from the Canadian Institute of Child Health, Kelli Dilworth.

Dr. Norris, why don't we ask you to begin? Welcome.

Dr. Douglas A. (Doug) Norris (Director General, Census and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think they're here for a little bit of both, both to keep me in order and also to field the hard questions.

I certainly am happy to be here today to provide you with a brief overview of some of the information on the socio-economic conditions of aboriginal children. In the short time I have today, I'm going to focus my attention on six or seven different dimensions of children's living conditions, and I'm using data from the most recent census for which we have data available, the 1996 census. More recent data from the just completed 2001 census will only become available in January 2003, and we'll certainly be updating this information at that time.

For my presentation, I will use a series of graphics that I believe have been provided to members of the committee. I'll go through these one at a time, pointing out the highlights on each.

[Translation]

First of all, I would like to emphasize that the Aboriginal population is very young compared to the non-Aboriginal population. In 1996, more than half of all Aboriginals were under 25 years of age, compared to approximately one-third of non-Aboriginals. Lastly, one-third of the Aboriginal population was under 14 years of age.

The first chart shows this situation by presenting population percentages for each age group. The bars represent the Aboriginal population, whereas the line represents total population. As you can see, Aboriginals are more numerous at the base of the pyramid.

As the following chart shows, Aboriginal children represent approximately five percent of all children in Canada. Although they live in all regions of the country, they represent a particularly large percentage of children in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories. In Manitoba and Saskatchewan, the percentage was approximately 20 percent in 1996, a figure which will increase in future because of the very young Aboriginal population.

[English]

Chart 3 shows the trend in the infant mortality rate for the registered Indian population. As you can see, this rate has declined substantially since 1979, going from about 30 per 1,000 live births, down to a little over 10. However, the gap between the registered Indian infant mortality rate and the rate for the total population remains steady today.

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Chart 4 shows some data on the family situation of aboriginal children. In 1996, nearly 30% of aboriginal children were living with only one parent—generally their mother—which was close to double the levels for the non-aboriginal population. The left-hand side of the chart you have before you shows the proportion living with one parent, depending on the geographic area—that is, on reserve, in rural areas, or in urban areas outside of reserves. You can see the rate is particularly high in the large urban areas, where 41% of aboriginal children under the age of 15 are living with only one of their parents. In fact, if you look at the right-hand side of the graph, it shows the percentage of the population living with neither parent, and you can see that, for example, for the on-reserve aboriginal population, approximately 15% are living with neither parent, but are likely living with another relative such as a grandparent perhaps, or perhaps a non-relative.

Charts 5 and 6 focus on education and education trends. The first shows the percentage of youths who are not attending school and who have not completed secondary school. As can be seen, the levels are much higher for aboriginal youths. For example, for youths aged 20 to 24, nearly 40% had not completed secondary school and were not enrolled in school, as compared to about 14% for the non-aboriginal population.

The next graph shows the change in educational attainment over the period between 1981 and 1996, as measured by the percentage of persons who have at least some post-secondary education. That is, this is the proportion of people who have gone beyond secondary school and into post-secondary education. They may not have completed it at the time of the census; they may be in progress or they may have gone partway through and then left, but they have gone on to some post-secondary education.

You can see a couple of findings. One, there has been a fairly substantial improvement over the period between 1981 and 1996. By 1996, 43% of aboriginal youth—and I'm looking at group aged 20 to 29 here—had some post-secondary education. However, notice that the gap between the aboriginal and non-aboriginals remains. We have seen improvements in both populations, but the gap between the two still remains.

[Translation]

The following chart shows the incidence of low income among Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal children under 15 years of age living in urban areas. As may be seen, nearly 60 percent of Aboriginal children living in urban areas grow up in families with incomes below the low income line as established by Statistics Canada. The percentage is 25 percent among non-Aboriginal children.

[English]

Chart 8 shows one measure of the extent to which children might be considered to be living in crowded households. Here, the measure of crowding is taken as an average of more than one person per room. That's a generally-accepted measure of housing conditions. Overall, 5% of aboriginal children live in this situation, as compared to less than 2% of non-aboriginal children. However, as you can see, the level is particularly high for children living on a reserve, where nearly one in five live in homes with more than one person per room.

The final chart—chart 9—shows the mobility of aboriginal children. We Canadians are a fairly mobile population. We like to move around. In fact, over a five-year period, a little less than half of us move from one house to another or one home to another, sometimes within the same community, and sometimes to different communities. However, the aboriginal population is even more mobile than the total population.

Over the five-year period of 1991 to 1996, 55% of aboriginal children aged 5 to 14 changed residences—that is, they moved from one home to another—as compared to 43% of the non-aboriginal population. Notice that mobility was particularly high in the large urban areas, where 70% of aboriginal children had moved at least once during the five-year period in the early 1990s, between the two censuses. Clearly this mobility has implications for various services—for example, education, where often a change in residence is also accompanied by a change in school.

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Not shown on the slide are the levels of mobility between communities, perhaps from a reserve to the city, or vice versa. Overall, about 1 in 5 aboriginal children actually changed the community they live in over the five-year period. That's a rate also slightly higher than that of the non-aboriginal population.

Mr. Chairman, this completes the information I wanted to present today. I realize this has been very brief, but I certainly would be very happy to respond to any questions the committee has after the presentations.

The Chair: Thank you, Dr. Norris. That's very graphic—I would say that's the best word for it—in terms of a very useful demonstration that gives us all sorts of things to think about. I think it leads nicely into Kelli Dilworth's presentation.

Again, we welcome you, Ms. Dilworth.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth (Project and Research Officer, Canadian Institute of Child Health): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm one of the people who did help with some background research on The Health of Canada's Children: A CICH Profile, which I'm going to be talking about a little bit today.

First of all, the Canadian Institute of Child Health is a non-profit, non-governmental organization advocating on behalf of children and youth, and it has done so for over 25 years. Every four years or so, it publishes a book that is affectionately known as the profile. The profile contains information, statistics, and indicators on the health and well-being of children and youth in Canada. It attempts to provide a complete and comprehensive overview, a picture of the health and well-being of Canada's children. This book has ten chapters, and one of the important chapters that I'm here to discuss today is the aboriginal chapter.

Basically, I'd like to get three three points across today. The first is the importance of having such a chapter in a book such as this, or in the larger picture of the health and well-being of children and youth in Canada. I will highlight a few of the good news stories that we've found, and provide perhaps some indications of where we have noticed that work needs to be done.

I would first like to say the institute would have much preferred it if someone from an aboriginal background could have been here to present this information, but no one was available on such short notice. I am unfortunately the next best thing.

The first item overall is recognizing the importance of such a chapter in an overall book such as this. This particular chapter was shaped and interpreted by aboriginal people by using a round table made up of members from across the country, from first nation, Métis, and Inuit cultures.

Promoting health policies and programs that reflect the needs of aboriginal communities is critical for children and youth not only for today, but for tomorrow, for future generations. This chapter and other chapters like it attempt to adequately begin the dialogue on the health status of our aboriginal children and youth. One of the things we want to stress, though, is that the current surveillance systems used to gather data need to be examined within the context of tribal, cultural, and community differences.

In terms of some of the good news stories that this chapter has found, in many cases, the health and well-being of aboriginal children is improving in some cases. Two particular good news stories that we'd like to highlight are Aboriginal Head Start, as well as CAPC programs—and CAPC is the Community Action Program for Children.

The Aboriginal Head Start programs empower parents and their communities to meet the developmental needs of children and youths. They are locally controlled sites administered by non-profit aboriginal organizations. And CAPC programs support the healthy development of children as well. In 1999, 39 projects serving aboriginal families were sponsored by aboriginal organizations, although it would be better if the scope or reach of them could be wider than it is.

In the profile, we do note places in which we noticed that an improvement needs to take place, such as with the high rate of suicide among young people in aboriginal communities. For instance, the rate of male aboriginal youths who have committed suicide is five times higher than the national rate. For females, the rate is eight times higher. We also noticed a higher rate of drug use, including solvent abuse and glue sniffing, particularly by young children between the ages of 4 and 11, which is young. Finally, for aboriginal children with disabilities, we found it is often difficult to access culturally appropriate programs, if there are any at all.

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To conclude, I would just like to say the profile and work such as this are an important part of measuring, monitoring, and interpreting the health of Canada's children and youth. Indicators and statistics that are shaped, interpreted, and owned by the aboriginal communities are imperative to improving the lives of our children and youth in Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Thank you very much for such an efficient presentation.

We can afford to be a little more informal in this setting because we are fewer in number.

Betty Hinton, I will start by asking if you have some comments, or would you like to hold for a bit?

Ms. Betty Hinton (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys, Canadian Alliance): I'm substituting for Ms. Skelton today, so I just received the background information about an hour before I came. However, I did find the presentations very interesting.

The statistics you were showing us, Dr. Norris, were rather scary. From what I can see and from what I've heard today, I understand that education is improving for young native people. I'm assuming that as the education improves, the statistics Ms. Dilworth was giving will also improve, because we will hopefully have fewer and fewer suicides when education comes and more hope can be held out for these young people.

I didn't quite catch the title of the book to which you were referring, though, Ms. Dilworth. I'm sorry, but I was writing very quickly.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: I'll inform you. It's called The Health of Canada's Children: A CICH Profile.

Ms. Betty Hinton: Okay, thank you.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: It's in its...oh, Mr. Godfrey has it.

The Chair: I have it here. I can show you what it looks like.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: It's in its third edition, but it was the first edition that had a chapter specifically on aboriginal children and youth, and that chapter was in fact shaped by a round table of leaders and members of the aboriginal community.

Ms. Betty Hinton: The last comment I would make is that I know how disappointed Ms. Skelton is that she couldn't be here today, because this is her portfolio and she's very interested. I will pass on everything I hear and everything I receive today, though.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chair: Ms. Guay.

Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Thank, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to congratulate you on your work and thank you for being with us. It is very interesting to see the statistics. We see progress, distinct progress, but we also see what remains to be done for the children. What impresses me is the extent to which... I'm looking at the child mortality rate, and it is disturbing because it looks like it is slightly on the rise. Perhaps you could give us a little more information on that.

When you say there are children who have no place to live, who are not with their parents, the percentage is very, very high. That really surprises me. Are those children in centres? Are they placed in foster homes? How does that work? I would like to have a little information on that as well, if you have any.

Do we have any more information after 1996? I see that the statistics go until 1996, but this is 2001. That is an interval of two years. Will something be submitted to us later so that we can really do a thorough job on the question? This isn't a question that comes up regularly in committee, and we really want to do a thorough job on this matter, on the case of young people, Aboriginals and children. So if you can give us...

I'll come back later with other questions. Go ahead.

[English]

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Unfortunately, I can only speak for what is in the profile. The latest data that we have are from 1996, but I believe Dr. Norris would be able to indicate any more recent ones.

[Translation]

Mr. Doug Norris: Unfortunately, the data come from the census, and the last census, the 2001 census, is not yet available. This is the most recent we have at this time. In 2003, we will have new data.

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Ms. Monique Guay: That's another two years. That's quite a lot. I have another question.

I was talking about children who are not living with their parents. You didn't give me any details on that. Where do these children live? Are they in centres, in families? Do you have any information on that?

Mr. Norris, is this really reliable data? I know that it is not easy to obtain data or statistics on what goes on on the reserves. There is some reluctance, which I can understand as well. Are these data really very specific or are they more or less...?

Mr. Doug Norris: The source of the data is the census. These data are compiled from the answers the public has given us.

Ms. Monique Guay: These are the figures that people who wanted to take part have given you.

Mr. Doug Norris: There is definitely a problem on certain reserves which do not take part in the census.

Ms. Monique Guay: That information is lacking.

Mr. Doug Norris: These data do not cover the entire Aboriginal population, but they do cover approximately 80 to 85 percent. That may not be the case for the last percentage, but I believe the data are good enough to show what the situation is.

Ms. Monique Guay: They give us a picture of the actual situation.

Mr. Doug Norris: Yes, it's especially a picture. It appears there is a major difference between Aboriginals and the total population.

Ms. Monique Guay: Yes, you can see that.

Mr. Doug Norris: It's a little difficult for me to say more about the situation of children living with other persons. We are conducting a study on populations, on children who live with their grandparents. I believe a large part of this population lives with grandparents, but it is not possible right now to say exactly the percentage or the situation of other children.

Ms. Monique Guay: Do all children on reserves have to go to school? Do you have that figure?

Mr. Doug Norris: No, I have no data on the number, on the percentage of children on reserves...

Ms. Monique Guay: Is it possible to obtain that information?

Mr. Doug Norris: Yes.

Ms. Monique Guay: It would be interesting to be able to have that information: the percentage of children 0 to 15 years of age who go to school.

Mr. Doug Norris: From 0 to 14, yes.

Ms. Monique Guay: Yes, roughly that. It could help us in our work to have that information as well.

Can you tell us in what region of Canada it is most difficult to obtain information on what is going on with children? When you want to do statistics, in what part of Canada do you have the most trouble getting data, or are there regions where people simply refuse to inform you?

Mr. Doug Norris: In the 1996 census, we probably had problems in nearly all provinces, especially Quebec and Ontario. There are some large reserves which did not take part in the census, but there are also others in Western Canada, in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. It's not really concentrated in one region.

Ms. Monique Guay: I see. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That answers my questions. If I have any more, I will come back a little later.

The Chair: Absolutely.

Ms. Monique Guay: Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Tirabassi.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to thank the witnesses for giving us a very accurate snapshot of what the situation is and how it exists.

On some of the graphs, you were able to make a comparison to previous years, using 1996 as the benchmark. For example, you compare 1981 and 1996 on some of the graphs. If 1996 is the current benchmark, can a previous year be used as a constant in any way? Tying it in to the future, what is going to be the next kind of study, so that you can indeed see patterns? Even with what you have given us, we see some improvements in some areas, and some areas in which the situation has worsened, but it would be useful to see maybe three comparators so that we can start to see an established pattern. Would that be possible?

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Dr. Doug Norris: You certainly focused on the right statistical question, in that I think what we all would like to look at are the trends—what's been happening, where things have improved, where they haven't, and where we are we going in the future.

It is possible to do a little bit more than I've done here. In the short time I had available, quite honestly, I used some things that were already a little bit baked and that we finished off. But there are some problems with making detailed comparisons over time for some of the aboriginal groups, because of the nature of the census data and the changes that have happened in the reporting done by by people in terms of whether or not they consider themselves aboriginal. The whole issue of how one defines the aboriginal population is not necessarily straightforward. In the census, it does depend on people responding to the questions we're asking.

So some technical issues would make it a little bit difficult to do as much as we would like on trends, but we certainly could do more for parts of the aboriginal population than we've done here. That's something we'll be working on, and hopefully we'll be building it in when we release our new data.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Very good. That's my only question, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Well, I think we're going to have an informal discussion. Perhaps I can just weigh in, and then we'll come back and keep moving around here.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, Ms. Dilworth, but, in a sense, you have to leverage off the data Dr. Norris provides, right? A lot of what you're doing is there.

Data can be looked at in different ways. For example, we do have the National Longitudinal Survey of Children and Youth, which I think is out of your shop. If we had a complete aboriginal component, it would partly answer Mr. Tirabassi's question, because it's a longitudinal survey by definition, it's over time.

Does that have an aboriginal component to it? If not, why not, and what are we going to do about it? What are the problems? At the same time, maybe you could let us know a little bit about some of the other challenges with the shortfalls of information that may be particular to the aboriginal population, as opposed to the general population.

Dr. Norris, you can start off, and if you want to weigh in, too, Ms. Dilworth, feel free to do so at any point.

Dr. Doug Norris: Sure.

You're very right, Mr. Chairman. As you know, the National Longitudinal Survey of Children and Youth is a very important, new survey that...maybe it's not so new today.

The Chair: It goes back to when?

Dr. Doug Norris: I still think of it as new, but it goes back to 1993 or 1994, I believe. We're now into the third or fourth wave of it, and it has yielded, I think, very interesting and useful information on children.

The challenge we have in getting data for the aboriginal population is that it is a sample survey of about 20,000. As I pointed out, aboriginal children make up 5% of the total population. In the course of doing a survey like that, then, one doesn't capture enough aboriginal children to be able to report the results statistically. What we would really need to do is a special survey or a special panel on aboriginal children in order to get numbers sufficiently large enough to be able to report accurate results.

The Chair: Is that what's called oversampling?

Dr. Doug Norris: It could be oversampling, that's right.

We are actively discussing with Human Resources Development Canada—which has one of the leads on the aboriginal children's file—the possibility of actually doing some type of survey like the National Longitudinal Survey of Children and Youth. Perhaps it would not be exactly the same, but it would be moving in the direction of a longitudinal survey.

There are challenges to how to do that. For example, one might think of ways of doing it for the on-reserve population. For the off-reserve population, we have the issue of how to identify and find aboriginal children in order to survey them.

The Chair: And to track them, I presume.

Dr. Doug Norris: Well, yes. The tracking problem is another ongoing challenge, as is suggested by some of the mobility data I reported. Certainly, we realize a gap exists and that this information is important. We're working with other federal departments to examine ways of trying to address that from a survey perspective.

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The Chair: There are cost issues, as always, although I don't know how significant such a survey would be.

The second issue is getting a sufficient sample from a statistical point of view. I'm just calculating 5% of 20,000—and I had better be careful not to do it in public, otherwise I'll get it wrong. It would be interesting to know the minimum number of children you would have to survey.

In addition to talking to HRDC, I assume some fairly important negotiations would also have to take place with, I'm guessing, the AFN. I don't know where you are in those discussions.

Dr. Doug Norris: Yes, you've certainly identified some of the statistical technical problems that we have, and those are the things we're looking at.

On the last question you raised, as part of taking our census, perhaps I could just add something. In addition to doing the census, we're currently out in the field as we speak, collecting data in something called the Aboriginal People's Survey. This is a survey we did precisely for the reason you brought up. In our regular surveys, we don't have enough aboriginal people of all ages to be able to report on the population, so we've done a follow-up to our census that is called the Aboriginal People's Survey. In that, we will be able to report data on different groups in aboriginal population: the Métis population, the Inuit population, and the status Indian population. That does have a small children's component to it, but it's certainly by no means a replacement for the National Longitudinal Survey of Children and Youth. It's not as detailed, but it will yield some information.

In the course of doing that, we have worked very closely with aboriginal groups. In fact, we've had some very good support and partnership with representatives from various aboriginal organizations. We've learned a lot by working with the aboriginal organizations, and we have been able to tailor the survey to some of their specific needs. For example, we have a special module for the Métis population. We have another special module in the north, where we have been able to actually combine our survey of the Inuit population together with an international component being done in Greenland, Russia, Alaska, and maybe in one other country. The aboriginal organizations were very active in designing the questionnaires that go into these surveys, and they will be very active in reporting and analysing the results.

The Chair: Beginning when?

Dr. Doug Norris: The survey is just being done now, so it will probably be another twelve to eighteen months. Most of this data is going to be out in January 2003, starting with some of the basic census numbers. The Aboriginal People's Survey will then probably be out in the summer of 2003.

The Chair: Before we go to Mrs. Hinton, do you have anything to add, Ms. Dilworth?

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: I just want to quickly echo the importance of partnerships with and support from the aboriginal communities not only in the design and implementation, but also in the evaluation of these questions as well. That's something the institute would advocate.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mrs. Hinton.

Ms. Betty Hinton: I chair the leader's advisory committee on Indian and northern affairs for the Canadian Alliance party. As part of that thirty-month mandate, the first six months were spent exclusively with native people. I concentrated mostly on women and children because they happen to be my field of interest. Since I'm also the critic for multiculturalism and the status of women, they dovetailed quite nicely. I'm wondering if your statistics support anything I'm about to say.

The infant mortality rate is improving. It's doing so slowly, but it is improving. Part of that is due to education, and not just education in a school setting, but the education of young mothers. Quite often, these are teenage mothers who have a child without the benefit of a spouse to help them raise that child. That's an additional problem that they have. Also, of course—and this is coming from native people—the high incidence of fetal alcohol syndrome is holding back the education of children, because sometimes the symptoms of that disease are subtle and sometimes they're very severe. Did you find any of those things in your study of the statistics?

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That question would probably be to Kelli.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: I'm just thinking about some of the things we talk about. One of the first things you mentioned was the rate of mortality. If I remember correctly, I think the term used in this book was that it's a crude way to measure the health and well-being of aboriginal children and youth, because so many other factors come into play. It's not just in terms of whether or not they survive the first year or first six years, it's their quality of life. I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that was our interpretation of the data in terms of looking at mortality rates.

I'm just going to check about FAE/FAS while Dr. Norris....

Ms. Betty Hinton: The other problem that came forward several times during that six-month period was the fact that native women suffer ten times the number of cases of AIDS as non-native women do. That also plays a role in the well-being of their children, for obvious reasons.

The poverty level found on so many reserves has probably been the biggest contributor to the lack of education and the lack of health among children. When you're reading that report, I'm wondering if you could find out if that jibes with what you found as well, or whether these are a different set of criteria from what I used.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Absolutely. I could probably speak a little more if I had a chance to look at it more quickly instead of just being a representative. I do know, though, that poverty is a great indicator of health and well-being, and I know it's something the aboriginal round table really strongly wanted to address and to tackle as well. It is in here, so I would hope to be able to give it to you afterwards in terms of what it says exactly.

Ms. Betty Hinton: No rush. That's fine.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: I know this particular edition doesn't have any statistics about aboriginal women and HIV or the effects on their children, only because those statistics don't reach what would be included in here.

Ms. Betty Hinton: Well, that's terribly unfair, and I certainly can sympathize with you, because I'm substituting as well. If you need to read your data, that's fine.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Thank you.

Ms. Betty Hinton: One of the comments I would like to make before I close, though, is that in my particular area, which is Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys, in British Columbia—and I'm sure this is the case throughout the country—they have friendship centres. Those centres do a tremendous good in teaching young women how to raise their children, in being supportive, in teaching about prevention of disease, in teaching about proper feeding methods, etc. They also act as a support system for people who don't have that support within their own family for whatever reason—because they're removed from them, because they're not on their own reserve, or whatever the reason. Perhaps you can't answer this, but are the friendship centres that I'm speaking of Canada-wide, or is this something that happens to be unique to my area?

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: My understanding is that they are Canada-wide but not federally funded, so that means dealing with the harsh reality of keeping a centre going by searching for funding and those realities in each community, depending on where they are.

Ms. Betty Hinton: They're partially funded.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: They are partially funded? Okay, I'm glad to be corrected on that, but my understanding is that there is no overarching mechanism.

Ms. Betty Hinton: This year—again, it was this summer—I met with a lot of Métis people. From meeting with them, mostly in Ontario, my understanding was that they don't receive the same level of funding status native people receive in this country, so they have to do it whatever way they can, which means it's a lot more difficult to give the support to their people.

Thank you.

The Chair: Could I change the rules a little bit here? We actually do have some representatives of aboriginal groups here. For certain questions, I noticed they were nodding. Would the committee forgive me if I invited these guests to join us?

An hon. member: Agreed.

The Chair: Thank you.

Folks, if you have something to say, just come up to the table. If you actually know some of the answers to these questions and know something that may not be known by the official witnesses, please join us.

Would that be okay for everybody else here at the table? Yes?

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You'll have to identify yourselves when you come up. I can identify one person—that's Rick Brant—but not the others.

We don't normally do this, but I've just hijacked you because I think it would be helpful. You actually know some of the answers to these questions, and we will be able to make good the....

Kelli has had a chance to do a little scrumming, and then we'll go back to Madame Guay.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: In response to the comment about FAS, in our particular chapter it's known as a question mark. That means we were unable to report on it because the data wasn't sufficient. It was considered something important enough to be included in the book; however, there wasn't adequate data. It is something that would possibly be important to our better understanding.

Ms. Betty Hinton: I'll be happy to supply you with some sources for that data.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Great. Thank you.

The Chair: Can I just ask the new mystery guests to identify themselves for the record? Perhaps you can explain a little bit about where you're from, and then perhaps you can make any comments you may have on the question Ms. Hinton asked.

Mr. Rick Brant (Executive Director, Aboriginal Sports Circle): Certainly. My name is Rick Brant. I'm the executive director of an organization called the Aboriginal Sports Circle. Basically, in working with Sport Canada in a way that is very inclusive of first nations, Métis, and Inuit, our role is to provide a national voice for aboriginal sport and recreational development.

In all the discussion that's going on, I'm not sure what kind of clarification we can provide. Much of what was being discussed was intriguing us more than it was providing answers or....

The Chair: There was the point about friendship centres.

Ms. Gina Doxtator (Program Manager, Aboriginal Sports Circle): Yes.

The Chair: Would you like to introduce yourself?

Ms. Gina Doxtator: My name is Gina Doxtator. I'm also with the Aboriginal Sports Circle, as the program manager, but I previously worked with the National Association of Friendship Centres.

The Chair: Ah! Boy, was that ever a good hit. Tell us all.

Ms. Gina Doxtator: To respond to that question, there are 115 friendship centres in Canada, in every province and territory, and they do receive federal funding. That's the answer. I don't know if you have any others, and I don't know if I can answer them, but....

The Chair: Well, we have you here as the surprise mystery guests we just hijacked. I just thought it was too obvious, so thank you for being here. Don't go anywhere. We may need you.

Madame Guay.

[Translation]

Ms. Monique Guay: Mr. Norris, in the document you've prepared, I see that there is a general progression until 1996. There are positive figures, but also negative figures. Which are they? We may not have them in hand, but you may be more aware than we are of certain data that might be negative and which we are not aware of. I would like to know that.

You were talking about deaths among young children up to, I believe, six years of age, about the child mortality rate. There are obviously fewer, but the rate is nevertheless very high compared to that of the general population. This is very, very disturbing. I wondered whether we had other data on this because what you have submitted to us is nevertheless very general. So, if there are more specific things, such as, among other things, how is it that these children...? Are these children living in poorer environments? Were these children born on or off reserves? Mr. Chairman, we are going to ask these questions in the context of our experience.

I personally have some experience with this. There is an Indian reserve in my riding, but I would say it is more of a vacation reserve, where Aboriginals come and spend their vacation, where they come to hunt. In the Laurentians, they have their own lands, in Donnacona. However, there are also off-reserve Aboriginals in my region.

At the time, the Environment Committee had done a tour of Canada regarding environmental legislation, among other things. We had also met a number of Aboriginal groups who were suffering, among other things, from terrible environmental problems on certain reserves. That also plays a fairly large role in the health of families, in the health of children. I have not seen any statistics on this. Perhaps I would like to have a little information on this as well, if possible.

Mr. Doug Norris: I unfortunately have no statistics on the subject of your last question, but, as regards the data, I believe the charts are not all really positive. There are negative things in there.

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Ms. Monique Guay: There has been some progress.

Mr. Doug Norris: For example, the child mortality rate is still higher than in the general population. There is also a discrepancy between the level of education among Aboriginals and that of non-Aboriginals, as well as the number of low-income individuals. So it seems to me there are negative aspects in these statistics.

I do not have any more detailed data today, such as what you suggested for the mortality rate of children from one to six years of age. I believe it is possible to obtain that data. I imagine there is still a difference between Aboriginals and non-Aboriginals with respect to this group.

Ms. Monique Guay: Absolutely. That must be the case. I'm convinced of it.

Do Aboriginals on reserves keep their own statistics on their reserves, in certain provinces or territories? Do you have access to that so that you can have something to base your draft statistics on?

I know that, in Quebec, among other places, we have very self- sufficient reserves, which are increasingly taking charge of their own affairs and which also sign treaties with the Government of Quebec. So these people probably already have statistics or documents. Do you have access to them? Are they cooperating with the federal government in this respect in order to help you produce your own statistics and to determine where we can help them, where there are difficulties, where there are problems?

Mr. Doug Norris: To date, we do not have data from Aboriginal groups, but we are working together to determine the best ways to collect data that could be useful to the federal and provincial governments and to Aboriginal groups. So the work is being done, but, to date, all data comes from the census or other surveys conducted by the federal government.

I imagine there are data at the provincial level in Quebec City. We are working with the Institut du Québec...

Ms. Monique Guay: For cooperation and all that.

Mr. Doug Norris: Yes.

Ms. Monique Guay: In a way, you must have the opportunity to put a figure on a number of persons, services and so on for the purpose of helping. If not, we hit the wall. We have trouble and can't do anything to help them progress and ensure that significant improvements are made.

The education situation, among other things, is appalling. As for the suicide rate among young people, I find it so disturbing.

I am reassured to see that there are people in sport because it is often so energizing. It's a recognized fact that people who play a lot of sports have fewer negative thoughts. So obviously if we develop new challenges for young people, if we involve them, teach them how to share and how to play team sports... I know. I have children, and when they are part of a team, they learn to share, to play as a team, to respect each other. This is obviously at an entirely different level, but it begins with this. It begins in childhood.

Do we have other statistics on suicide among young people? I don't want to be morbid, but why does it occur? We have heard a lot about alcoholism among young Aboriginals. Do we have statistics on this?

Mr. Doug Norris: I believe there are some statistics in the report.

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Yes.

[English]

Ones collected by the round table are in this book. They talk about suicide rates and connectedness. Those young people with protective factors have a lower rate of suicide. Six protective factors were measured in this particular study, and they were self-governance, land claims negotiation, cultural facilities—sports, and also friendship centres—and local control over education, health services, and police or fire services. The statistics that we have available have shown the presence of three or more of those protective factors I just named were associated with a very substantial decrease in the rate of suicide for our children and youth. So there are statistics available that aren't from Statistics Canada, but they are from—

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[Translation]

Ms. Monique Guay: It would be interesting to have them distributed to us, to have that information for the committee, if possible. Perhaps you could make us copies.

[English]

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: Certainly.

The Chair: We will arrange that through the research and so on.

[Translation]

Ms. Monique Guay: Yes, yes.

[English]

The Chair: Dr. Norris.

Dr. Doug Norris: I was just going to add, Mr. Chairman, that some of the data being referred to is tabulated and held by either the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development or by Health Canada. I think someone mentioned earlier that someone from Indian Affairs and Northern Development will be appearing before you. They may certainly be able to provide some of the data for the on-reserve population.

The Chair: I think I'm right—and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong—that because of the shortness of time, we weren't able to get some of that data from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. That will be presented as part of their overall presentation after we return, on November 21.

Mr. Tirabassi.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think we all can agree the statistics have been most helpful to again giving us that picture, and maybe some more can be gathered. But what is the intent of this committee, Mr. Chairman, and what is it that we hope to do with these statistics? Are we going to continue to bring groups in front of us? At what point are we going to start to make recommendations and those sorts of things?

The Chair: Let me put forward the thought process that lies behind this.

What we thought we would do today was set the scene. We may do that partly through statistics, and we may come back to victimize our mystery guests by doing it more anecdotally. But my thought here was that I think there's something very important—I won't call it a missing piece—that we have to talk about before we go away, and that is the various mechanisms. Kelli was getting into it with protective factors.

We have a fairly blunt result in things like suicide rates and infant mortality. What we need to think about a little bit more are the mechanisms, if you like, that produce those results. You may refer to this as the “determinants of health” part, and I think I will be coming back to ask some questions about it.

What is it that produces these results? We know it has to be a complex of factors. On the other hand, what allows people to beat the odds, to get ahead of the game? What do we know about that stuff? Until we have some sense of what causes what, both negatively and positively, we're not going to be in a position to do the next phase, which is to evaluate the various existing government programs that various departments have to deal with the aboriginal population.

So today's exercise is to set the scene and to start us thinking about what causes what, so that when we come to speak to.... After our return, we'll be having a session with Indian Affairs and Northern Development to find out what programs they have, but we need to be able to ask if they work, how we know they work, and how they could work better. That's what we want to be in a position to start thinking about. Similarly, we'll have Health Canada in, because Health does a number of programs.

At the end of all of that, I hope we will be in a position in December that will allow us to have some sense of the scope of the problem, the components of the solutions that are there, and how they interact with each other. All of these are coming out of different departments, right? Well, we want to know what they mean for someone on the ground, how effective they are, and whether some of these work better than others. I hope we would then be in a position to come forward with some recommendations.

Is that okay as a plan?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: It gives me a better idea of where we might be going with all this.

The Chair: I hope it reflects more or less what we agreed to last week. Otherwise, I'm in trouble.

Did you want to say something?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No, that's fine.

The Chair: Let me flesh out the issue of mechanisms, then.

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I realize that if you don't know the answers yourselves, what you may be able to do best is describe exactly what your shop does about this sort of thinking. In other words, I know people within Statistics Canada do think about the determinants of health and what causes what. That issue is interesting, because if you take any of the measures, if you take infant mortality, substance abuse, youth suicide, or HIV rates, the number of components that would go into explaining each of these things is complex and varied in terms of weighting the various possibilities, ranging from poverty to housing to just generalized despair.

What I want to ask our two guests—and then perhaps we can get a more anecdotal response from our mystery guests—is where that work is in each of your organizations in terms of the explanatory work, the deeper understanding of these mechanisms. Can you tell us a little bit about where that happens in StatsCan, and who is doing it? I think I know the answers, though.

Dr. Doug Norris: Certainly. In StatsCan, we spend a lot of our time trying to collect the basic data that can be used to illuminate the kinds of issues and questions you have raised. A fair bit of work has been going on in the health area, on the determinants of health, using some of the newer surveys. A variety of studies have also been produced.

Because of the limitations of the surveys I alluded to earlier, this work has not been able to look at the aboriginal population specifically in the same way in which it has looked at the more general population. One might expect that some of those results might carry over; however, maybe certain factors are different and they need to be taken into account. Right now, our focus is on trying to improve the information base that would facilitate that kind of analysis.

In our shop right now, our emphasis is on trying to get a better picture and to develop data sets, and we're working with researchers across the country in a variety of ways. A new Aboriginal Health Institute has been formed as part of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. I think it will certainly be looking at the kinds of issues you've mentioned, and we would hope to be able to link with them in various ways and provide some data to them so that the research can be done.

So our focus right now really is more on the data side than it is on the research side in terms of the aboriginal population, simply because we have some shortcomings on the data side that need to be addressed first. But the overall research initiative certainly is very much alive in Statistics Canada—as it is outside as well—on those determinants of health.

And you're quite right. At the end of the day, that is really why we collect this information. Yes, we can go so far to report the descriptive findings today, but it's really critical when we can get into explaining what matters and what perhaps causes what. In research, it's always extremely difficult to ever come down and say A causes B. We probably can't do that entirely, but we can start moving in that direction and get fairly strong evidence that it's likely or that these factors seem to be responsible. I can think of a study done by Michael Wolfson at Statistics Canada. He has looked at the role of income inequality in determining health, and has come up with some very interesting findings on how inequality itself seems to be a factor in the health of community. It's very fascinating work showing some very interesting differences between Canada and the U.S.

So I think that type of work is proceeding. It's certainly facilitated by the kinds of new information we're getting. In the coming years, as the information on the aboriginal population gets developed, both by ourselves and by other agencies.... As was mentioned a number of times, I think it's extremely important that aboriginal people themselves be very involved not only in the data collection, but certainly in the research. That's certainly our approach at Statistics Canada.

The Chair: Thank you.

If I can ask a follow-up question to you, Kelli, you listed the six protective factors that were arrived at after a series of consultations. In terms of what causes what, this is what has been said by the people you've talked to. But in terms of the kind of the work that, for example, Michael Wolfson has been doing on the general population, dealing with these large issues of inequality of income and all the various other things—ones in which you're trying to find patterns, I guess—I can well imagine that all six have something to do with this. However, I'm not sure how one would get into a relative weighting, or how many of them indeed are what you might call political assertions. They may or may not be true, but I don't know whether the settlement of land claims would actually change the status of children's health. Maybe it would.

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How does an organization like yours balance what it knows to be the case so far in the work on the determinants of health, with what people wish to say they think it is, and how do you meet in the middle?

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: That's a really good question, and that's part of the struggle of putting together such a chapter. We really have to rely on the data from other people. For instance, the data that I presented to you about the six protective factors was a study done by someone else. It's not ours.

I'm not really sure how to answer that question, because this is really a compilation of data coming from other people. They were the ones doing the research on the protective factors and things like them, but these are ones the round table felt it was important to include in the larger scope of things.

The Chair: How do you know it's true?

Ms. Kelli Dilworth: At the institute, we can only assess the truth by the research that's being done. That's part of the challenge of making sure the data is reportable, of making sure it's statistically sound. We had to make sure all the studies we looked at reached a certain level of soundness, for lack of a better word. That would have been up to the discretion of our principal research staff.

The Chair: Rick and Gina, I'm actually going to turn to you for a moment. I know you're not experts in the determinants of health, but you are witnesses who have actually seen this on the ground, and you have a much more direct contact with all the things being talked about.

When you hear this discussion about what causes what and about what we can do about it, what sort of reaction do you have? I know that's a very vague question, but you must have some reactions as you're hearing people noodle in the abstract here. Go for it.

Mr. Rick Brant: First of all, niawen kowa, which means “great thanks” in Mohawk. It's both an honour and a surprise to be sitting at this table.

Just to give you some quick background, the Aboriginal Sports Circle is a collective of provincial and territorial aboriginal sport bodies. Each of those provincial and territorial bodies maintains the mandate to represent aboriginal sport and recreational development for all of their aboriginal populations, whether they're first nations, Métis or Inuit. They simply come to a table to form the national body.

Our funding comes from Sport Canada. Much of our focus is elite sport development, but the movement, the structure in developing an aboriginal sport system, the support structure, and the delivery structure in Canada really respond to the grassroots needs. Those, in the very simplest terms, relate directly to the statistics that were provided earlier. We are well aware of the high suicide rates. We are aware of the single-parent family issues and the socio-economic environment in which most of our community members live day to day.

The circle, in its simplest form, really uses and focuses on providing healthy, active lifestyles as an opportunity to prevent many of these socio-environmental situations or circumstances. We have used sport and recreation. With those, we look at the entire continuum of fitness and active living as the most powerful preventative tool. As we heard earlier, sport not only provides alternative lifestyles, it develops an individual and focuses more on a holistic, traditional approach. It's not just the physical preparation of an individual. We also look at the mental, spiritual, and cultural aspects in a traditional setting.

• 1625

If I can use one very practical example of how this aboriginal sport movement has addressed many of these issues, it's a comment that was made by the leader of Team Saskatchewan about the North American Indigenous Games. For those who aren't aware of this massive event, the next games are in 2002 in Winnipeg. The North American Indigenous Games have grown to be the largest ongoing multi-sport event in Canada and the United States. The previous games hosted over 5,500 sport participants and over 3,000 cultural participants. They have grown to become larger than the Canada Games.

In their very practical use, power, and prevention in terms of how the games affect our communities, at the 1997 games, the leader of Team Saskatchewan stood up and said that since the very first North American Indigenous Games took place in 1990, they had not had any suicides amongst their team members. In very practical terms, that was an incredible feat when they looked at the suicide rate of the initial group that came together for the first North American Indigenous Games and at how the games had impacted through and including 1997.

In Saskatchewan, again just using Saskatchewan as an example, they go through team trials and community preparations that see over 10,000 young people preparing for that event, and they take upwards of 1,000 to compete. Their leadership has supported this event because they have seen the dramatic impacts on their young people. And they're not only looking at the suicide rate, they're looking at how it links to education. Teams have now established criteria saying their team participants must be going to school and they must be free of substances, whether they're performance enhancing drugs or alcohol or tobacco. They are brought into a system that provides for care and attention not only to their training, but to the family environment, including the family and everything that happens within that team environment. This whole thing has had a dramatic impact on the health of their young people and community members, so they have rallied behind that event.

So for us, the bottom line with the Aboriginal Sports Circle really is trying to respond to those grassroots needs by using sport and recreation as a tool to prevent a lot of the terrible circumstances in which our community members exist.

The Chair: Well, I'm glad you came. That's the kind of evidence that we need to think about, because it takes it out of the abstraction of programs and government, bringing it to the level of real, live human beings.

As we look at our work, I hope we're going to be able to see where it's possible to beat the odds. That's what this is about. It's about getting ahead of the statistics, getting ahead of the curve, and all the rest of it. It's going to be very challenging for this committee to try to get behind the numbers and to get behind the programs to see what really happens, to get a real on-the-ground feel for what's going on, but I think this is a great example of how.... I think one of the words that was used was “connectedness”. Is that what I heard? Maybe this is what connectedness is about. It's about connecting to other people, connecting within the community, and connecting with other groups outside the community.

By the way, I should say that in today's Globe and Mail, as part of a continuing series written by John Stackhouse on aboriginal people, there's a very interesting related story about the hockey team in The Pas. The team has beaten the odds in many ways—but not completely, by the way. They have actually formed such a strong hockey team that they have now been Manitoba champions three years in a row. It's well worth reading how that has had a galvanizing effect, and a spillover effect on community relations between the adults from the reserve and those just across the Saskatchewan River, in The Pas. It's a great story about how certain things can trigger great results.

Do I see any other comments or questions? No?

• 1630

I want to thank all the witnesses, both regular and irregular. I think we've had a very good start to our study. I think it's grounded in some reality and in some facts. We know what the challenges are. The real test for the sessions ahead is to see whether or not the programs we are looking at will actually alter the statistics for the better. That's going to be our challenge.

Again, we thank all of you, the expected and the unexpected, for your presence and your contributions.

The meeting is adjourned.