PACC Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, November 29, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance)): Good afternoon, everybody.

Ladies and gentlemen, today we have some guests with us from Russia, from Russian accounting chambers. They are sitting at the back, and I would like to ask them to come forward and take seats here at the front of the committee. Our guests are here participating in a Canada-Russia interchange funded by CIDA, our development agency, in conjunction with the Parliamentary Centre.

I will now ask our interpreter, Mr. Vadim Fotinov, to introduce our guests.

Mr. Vadim Fotinov (Interpreter): This is the head of the delegation, Mr. Anatoly Saunin. He is the head of the Methodology Department of the Accounting Chamber of the Russian Federation.

From left to right, Galina Anisimova is the head of the Analytical Department of the Accounting Chamber of the Russian Federation; Ivan Lanchinskiy is the head of the Accounting Chamber of Krasnoyarsk region; Sergei Sherigov is the head of the Tyumen region Accounting Chamber; and Sergei Lomakin is the head of the Accounting Chamber of the Yamalo-Nenetsky region.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

We have here members of Parliament. I'll start on the government side: Mr. Murphy, Mr. Finlay, Ms. Leung, and the gentleman from the Auditor General's Office, whom you know already.

On this side, representing the official opposition, the second largest party in the House of Commons and the largest party in opposition, is Mr. Mayfield. The second largest party in opposition, the Bloc Québécois, is represented by Monsieur Odina Desrochers. As representative of the third largest party in the opposition, we have Mr. Pat Martin, and Mr. Bryden has just joined us on this side.

I represent, by the way, the same party as Mr. Mayfield, the second largest party in the House of Commons and the largest party in opposition.

So we have the government on my right and the opposition parties on my left.

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When we're conducting government business, all our meetings are in public. If you look behind you, you will see a little antenna all lit up. Our meeting is being broadcast so everyone will know what's going on in Parliament and in the particular committee.

As you've been talking about accountability, I should mention to our parliamentary colleagues here that our guests are from accounting chambers of the Russian Federation and different provinces in Russia. They are here working and have been spending some time at the Auditor General's Office.

Normally, we meet every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon. The Auditor General and one or two representatives sit on this side, and the department that is under scrutiny sits on that side. All the issues we are discussing are contained in a book such as this. We hear from the Auditor General, and we hear the reply from the department. Then we deliberate, and we write a report. Later on we will be deliberating on a particular report, which hopefully we are going to table in Parliament next week.

We are now joined by Mr. Harb, another government member.

I would just like to say in public and in front of my colleagues that I had the opportunity of being in Moscow in October with Mr. Roy Cullen from the government side. We met with Mr. Gerashchenko and one of the budget subcommittees of the Duma, and we also met with Mr. Kushnar from the Accounting Chamber. I know that I gained a great deal of information about the process in Russia and Moscow, and I hope that we had an excellent exchange of information.

Now I'm going to ask if the guests have any questions of the members of Parliament here. Does anyone have any questions of anyone?

Mr. Manfred Kühnapfel (Director of International Affairs, Office of the Auditor General of Canada): Let me answer the question.

Mr. Kushnar was the head of the first delegation from the Russian Accounting Chamber. He also came to Parliament. It was on the same day the Auditor General was appointed. We had the pleasure of having lunch together with Mr. Williams, you, and the Russian delegation at the time.

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The Chair: It is a pleasure to welcome you a second time and your colleagues for the first time here.

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance): Thank you for coming.

The Chair: Ms. Leung.

Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome them all there. I wonder how long they'll stay and wonder what the purpose for their visit is.

Mr. Anatoly Nikolaevich Saunin (Head of Methodology Department, Accounting Chamber of the Russian Federation) (Interpretation): Later in the day we'll have a wrap-up session. Tomorrow we fly back home, but the first three days we worked in Toronto. We were introduced to the office of the provincial Auditor General and shown how they work, their practices. For three days we have been working here in Ottawa with our colleagues from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.

As to the main purpose, the objective of our visit, it is actually to examine the value method of auditing and the methodological approaches used here in Canada. Besides value-for-money auditing, the second important aspect is interaction with our Canadian colleagues, the Office of the Auditor General, with Parliament, and specifically with the public accounts committee.

The program has been quite intense. No shopping has been allowed.

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): Too bad.

Mr. Anatoly Nikolaevich Saunin (Interpretation): This is good, as a matter of fact. Tomorrow we'll have some free time—but it's a joke, of course.

I have to tell you that we have found the visit very productive and useful, despite the fact that there are certain differences in terms of legislation that regulates auditing. Also, we have somewhat different political institutions, but there are some principles, so basically they have a lot in common. There may be some aspects that may be different, but overall, these principles are pretty much alike.

For instance, today we were told about the mechanism of interaction between the Office of the Auditor General and Parliament, your committee specifically, and vice versa, how your committee examines and considers reports prepared by the office.

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This particular experience will be very useful, in terms of strengthening links between the Accounting Chamber of the Russian Federation and the Duma, and specifically with the committee on budget and taxation of the Duma.

We think your processes and procedures are quite effective. Of course, we have to factor in some differences in the Russian context, but at the same time we think they are applicable, in terms of strengthening the links between the Accounting Chamber and the Russian Parliament.

Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Desrochers, you have some comments.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière-L'Érable, BQ): I'd like to prove to you that this country embraces linguistic duality, and that this is particularly true of Quebec.

On behalf of my political party and of Quebec, I'd like to welcome you to Ottawa. I hope your visit will be a productive one and that you will share with us your knowledge of the office of auditor general in your country.

Could you briefly tell me a little about the duties of your country's auditor general and how they compare with those of Canada's AG?

[English]

Mr. Anatoly Nikolaevich Saunin (Interpretation): Generally speaking, the powers of the Accounting Chamber are provided for in the law on the Accounting Chamber of the Russian Federation. They're very much identical to those of the office. The same applies to responsibilities and functions. They're very much identical, because the foundation in both cases is based on some overarching principles of state financial control.

Canada and Russia are members of INTOSAI. This is an international organization whose members are the accounting chambers or offices of various countries. There is a difference, and quite a significant difference, in my opinion. Maybe this is a source of envy, as far as we are concerned.

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This has to do with the three existing forms of state control over the execution of the state budget. Here in Canada, those in your office perform mostly one form of this control. They do post-auditing. They examine post-factum, after the public funds were spent. The Accounting Chamber of the Russian Federation does pre-auditing. In other words, we provide an opinion on the draft of the budget. We also exercise current control. We prepare reports on a quarterly basis on the execution of the state budget. Just like our colleagues in your office, we also do post-auditing. We examine how the budget was implemented. So as you can see, the Accounting Chamber has quite a wide range of power and authority.

The Chair: That's just wonderful.

Now we're going to ask Mr. Geoff Dubrow, a deputy director from the Parliamentary Centre in charge of the Canada-Russia parliamentary program, to say a few words.

Mr. Geoffrey Dubrow (Deputy Director, Canada-Russia Parliamentary Program): Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

I just want to take the opportunity to acknowledge the commitment you've shown to our program, and specifically to Russia, by taking the time to meet the delegation here and also to attend the seminar last month in Russia with the state Duma.

When Mr. Williams was in Moscow we met with the rough equivalent, if you like, of your public accounts committee. One of the key messages he successfully transmitted was the idea that oversight, as far as I understand it, is an institutional partnership between the Auditor General and the public accounts committee, working in tandem. Of course, the Russian tradition is a little different.

In the old Russian system, the idea of oversight was based on enforcement, and the idea of having a legislative body overseeing the executive was just considered to be absurd. The reason I mention this is just to thank you for your participation and for the support of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts during our program. I think during that seminar you were able to transmit, in a typical Canadian sensitive way, your experience and the experience of the public accounts committee in working with the Auditor General.

I think our Russian delegations—three of them have come here to look at this issue from both sides—will take the experience they find most applicable to their system and use it. But it's clear that you've made an invaluable contribution.

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The Chair: Thank you for these kind words.

On behalf of the entire committee, I want to thank you for coming here. We hope you have had an enjoyable and interesting visit. I hope this idea of sharing knowledge between Russia and Canada continues to develop. Therefore we hope we may see you back here another day.

Mr. Anatoly Nikolaevich Saunin: Thank you.

The Chair: I'm going to suspend the meeting a moment until we go in camera. The meeting is suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]