PACC Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 8, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance)): Good afternoon, everybody.

Madam Clerk, do we have quorum?

The Clerk of the Committee: Yes, we do.

The Chair: I'll go over the agenda for today. We'll start off with an open meeting for adoption of the second report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. After that we'll move to adoption of the report on the main estimates. After that we'll go to a motion to travel, and after that we'll move in camera.

First of all, the second report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure has been distributed, Madam Clerk?

The Clerk: Yes.

The Chair: Mr. Bryden.

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I have an obligation to go back to the House to speak in about half an hour. I wonder if, while we have quorum and have everyone present here, we could deal with this matter of having a hearing with respect to the problem with the...?

The Chair: We're dealing with it right now.

Mr. John Bryden: Okay, great. Sorry.

The Chair: Of course, we follow the same rules here as in the House. If quorum does not exist but nobody calls quorum, it's assumed that we have quorum unless someone calls to the contrary.

The recommendation of the steering committee is that we look at chapters 21, 9, 18, 24, 25, 26, 27, 33 and 34, as circulated in the report that you have before you. In addition, they recommend that we have an additional hearing on chapter 15 based on the information that Mr. Bryden brought to the committee.

Is there any discussion on this?

Mr. Bryden.

Mr. John Bryden: This is with regard to the issue involving the hearing of testimony with respect to the tragedy that occurred in Saskatchewan, the overdose on prescription drugs obtained through the non-insured health benefits plan.

I would propose, Mr. Chairman, if you deem it necessary and we have enough witnesses, that instead of doing it in only one session, perhaps we could do it in two sessions, a morning and an afternoon, so that we can get as much opportunity as possible to hear the necessary witnesses and make our judgment accordingly.

The Chair: I appreciate that comment, Mr. Bryden. We are looking at a number of witnesses. I think the issue that the steering committee has raised, brought to our attention by Mr. Bryden, concerns a death in Saskatchewan. It was raised that Health Canada—we we had talked about and discussed this before—be brought back to give their comments on this situation.

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There is a number of witnesses, and to have one meeting, with ten questioners and ten questionees, means that each person is on the stand for about two minutes flat. So if you're all in agreement, perhaps the chair will set up two meetings, morning and afternoon.

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: The clerk is suggesting an editorial change. We'll just look after that.

Are all in favour of the agenda part, as contained in the report?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: Moving on, it is recommended:

—that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts establish a subcommittee to explore issues related to impact of corruption on the efficient delivery of public services, to consider the role of Parliament in combating corruption, and to support current efforts to create regional and global organizations of parliamentarians engaged in the fight against corruption;

—that the subcommittee be chaired by John Williams and that it be composed of ten members, including five members from the government and five members from the opposition to be appointed by the chair after the usual consultations;

—that the chair of the subcommittee be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence in the absence of a quorum, provided that three members are present;

—that the subcommittee be delegated all the powers of the standing committee, except the power to report to the House;

—that the subcommittee be authorized to reimburse the travel expenses of the witnesses that will be charged to the budget of the standing committee; and

—that the subcommittee be authorized to seek the authority and the necessary funds to travel, if deemed appropriate.

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière-L'Érable, BQ): You speak too fast for the translators.

The Chair: My apologies.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I can follow you, no problem, but....

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I have one question on part III. That the subcommittee be chaired by you, that's fine, but that it be composed of 10 members? You've had experience in subcommittees before. It seems to me that's a large number. There must be some reason for it.

The Chair: The large number is to reflect the opposition situation, Mr. Finlay, that we have two members from the Alliance, me, and one member of the committee. Then we have one member of every other committee, which gives five opposition. Unless you want to go down to, say, three on the government side, then we could reduce the size of the committee, but I would imagine that the government would want an equal amount as the opposition—hence, ten.

Mr. John Finlay: Five and five, is that what you mean?

The Chair: That's right, with me being one of this five. If we have five, presumably the government side wants five.

An hon. member: So that would be four opposition plus chair.

The Chair: But we'll be able to hear evidence with only three people in attendance. The bulk of the work is going to be hearing evidence.

Mr. John Finlay: Okay.

The Chair: Any other debate? Are we agreed?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: That takes care of the subcommittee.

Next we're going to deal with the adoption of the report on the main estimates. You may recall that we considered the performance report, the estimates, and the plans and priorities of the Auditor General.

The Auditor General's estimates are included in vote 20, with regard to finance. The clerk has down here, verbatim:

Resume consideration of the Order of Reference dated Tuesday, February 27, 2001 is as follows: Main Estimates 2001-2002: Vote 20 under FINANCE (Office of the Auditor General) and Part III—Report on Plans and priorities relating to 2001-2002.

So we will consider vote 20.

FINANCE

Auditor General

Vote 20—Program Expenditures $48,836,000

(Vote 20 agreed to)

The Chair: Shall I report vote 20 to the House?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: We'll move to the third item. The annual conference of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees last year was in Halifax. This year it's going to be in Regina, Saskatchewan. We attend that every year, with staff as well.

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The clerk has a budget. Let's get it out so that members can decide whether they'll give us the authority. If they don't like the budget, they may not give us the authority, so let's distribute the budget.

The Clerk: They have it.

The Chair: They do?

The clerk is more organized than the chair.

Ms. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): We noticed that, but we didn't want to say anything.

The Chair: We will not have debate on that issue.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: We left it to the chair's honesty to make that statement.

The Chair: The chair can make the statement but he's not calling for debate on the issue.

First of all, I will give a very brief outline. All the public accounts committees of the ten provinces and the territories and the federal Parliament come together—as I say, this year in Regina—concurrent with the conference of the auditors general of the provinces and the federal government, who have a separate conference at the same time at the same location. We have done that every year.

You have the motions in front of you. The first one is that the chair of the committee be authorized to seek the authority and the necessary funds to permit up to seven members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and three staff persons of the committee to travel to Regina, Saskatchewan, to attend the 22nd annual conference of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees from September 16 to 18, 2001, and that the members attending the conference utilize their air travel points to travel to the conference, as is usual.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: I so move.

The Chair: Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Gerry Byrne (Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, Lib.): In the first item, I was just looking at the math.

The Chair: We're not into budgets yet. We're just on the motion to travel. We'll come to the budget next.

Mr. Gerry Byrne: Sure. Sorry about that.

The Chair: Is there any debate on the motion that we travel there?

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Now we'll move on to the budget. The motion is that the travel budget in the amount of $22,485 to attend the 22nd annual conference of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees from September 15 to 19 in Regina, Saskatchewan, be adopted.

Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): I so move.

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance): Has there been a change? I have $22,385. Have you got the number straight?

The Chair: Debate, Madam Jennings?

Ms. Marlene Jennings: No, it's not a debate but a request for clarification under point 1, transportation, where it's calculated that the air fare for the three staff persons who would be coming adds up to, at $2,500 each, $7,500. You've forgotten the $1,000 for taxis that's also listed.

The Chair: We should have brought this over.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: The total amount in the right-hand column should be $8,500.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Good eye.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: No, it wasn't my eye. It was the eye of my colleague, Gerry.

The Chair: I think we're going to take back this comment about the clerk being more organized than the chair.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Clerk: That's okay.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: So the total amount should really be $23,485.

The Chair: I brought it up with the clerk this morning that I thought $1,000 for cabs in Regina was a little excessive.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: It's not just in Regina, Mr. Chair. I mean, members and staff who have to travel from their point of departure, depending on—

The Chair: It's staff only. Members travel on the 64-point program, which includes taxis to and from the airport.

Mr. Gerry Byrne: But in terms of attending conferences and meetings themselves, there would be some additional transit between hotel and the conference itself.

The Chair: In Regina it's all in the same place.

Mr. Gerry Byrne: Okay.

The Chair: In light of the fact that we're talking about a $100 differential, perhaps we could reduce cabs to $100 and leave the motion as is.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Reduce cabs to $100? That's not reasonable.

The Chair: Okay. Do you want us to leave the $1,000?

Ms. Marlene Jennings: Yes.

The Chair: Okay, leave the $1,000.

So the motion will read $23,385.

Mr. John Finlay: The $8,500, $2,985, $8,000 and $2,900 comes to $22,385.

The Chair: That's right, plus $1,000 for cabs.

Mr. John Finlay: Well, it must be in there, because I've just included $8,500 for transportation.

The Chair: Is that right?

Mr. Finlay's been doing the math.

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Yes, it's included in the $22,385. Mr. Finlay is right. So while the $1,000 is not showing in the transportation column, it's included in the final total.

The Clerk: That's right.

Mr. John Finlay: Correct.

The Chair: Now that it's been clarified, is there any further debate?

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The Chair: We now are going to move in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]