NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, March 28, 2000

• 1530

[English]

The Chair (Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.)): I'd like to call to order the meeting of SCONDVA, the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

Welcome, colleagues.

The first thing is an announcement that we'll probably have an abbreviated meeting because with very little notice our witness, Mr. Comfort, who is an elderly man and a veteran, has had to cancel because of illness. We've rescheduled him, along with some other veterans, for Tuesday afternoon of next week. So we'll give him a second chance there.

I just heard that from the clerk shortly before Question Period, but rather than just cancel the meeting, I thought we probably had enough on our plate or enough questions bubbling so that we could have at least a brief meeting on future business and any other things you'd like to raise.

Maybe we could get a couple of updates from staff first, and then we'll see what anybody has in the way of questions or things to raise.

I think the clerk has a couple of points he would like to comment on. Eugene.

The Clerk of the Committee: Hopefully, the draft report will be ready by the end of the week and I can then send it around to members. So you have to think about scheduling meetings for consideration of the subject of procurement.

I hear from the department that about a dozen witnesses, academics and people from the department, want to come to see us with regard to RMA.

Next week the Speaker and members of the Latvian government are in town, and they want to meet with us. We have a heavy schedule next week. We have meetings on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Do you want to set aside an hour for them somewhere?

The Chair: Yes. I'm going to get Eugene to give a review. This is a heads up for everybody as to what those meetings next week are about.

The Clerk: On Tuesday we have meetings with NGOs, the group that cancelled today, and a group called Science for Peace; on Wednesday the meeting is on the estimates with the Minister, Mr. Eggleton; and on Thursday morning the meeting is on the Veterans Affairs estimates with Mr. Baker.

The Chair: So both ministers are here next week on estimates. There's a special meeting on Wednesday with the Minister of National Defence—

Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): There's another committee meeting on Wednesday.

The Chair: Yes, there's a special meeting on Wednesday and then our regular meeting on Thursday with Minister Baker. On Tuesday is our regular meeting on RMA.

As the clerk says, as well as that.... René.

Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Did you say that the two ministers will be here next Wednesday?

The Chair: No.

[Translation]

The Clerk: Mr. Eggleton will testify in his capacity as Minister of National Defence on Wednesday and Mr. Baker will testify in his capacity as Minister of Veterans Affairs Thursday morning.

Mr. René Laurin: And Mr. Eggleton will be here to discuss the budget.

The Clerk: That's correct, and Mr. Baker will also be here to discuss the budget.

Mr. René Laurin: Will they only be here for half an hour, given the fact that ministers usually only testify for about half an hour?

The Clerk: No, they will each be here for two hours.

[English]

The Chair: No, it should be two hours, René.

Elsie.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): When did you say, Rob, the reserves report would be coming through? When will we receive that?

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): It's still on the minister's desk. I don't know. In June maybe he'll be making a decision.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That's one I'm receiving calls, letters, and e-mail about all the time.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I think everybody is getting those calls.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Okay.

The Chair: Now that the topic of reserves has come up, Rob, is there a timeline you want to share with the committee? Does the minister have any timeline when he's hoping to wrap that up? You don't know. Okay. It's a contentious issue all right and an important one.

The Latvian Speaker and some other people from the Latvian Parliament are asking to meet with our committee. So I would suggest one of two things: I could find a time slot in my schedule that fits and invite all of you to come to a certain room or to my office—it's not that big, but maybe that's an argument for the whip to give me a bigger office—and we could have an informal meeting with him. Or we could go over to John O'Reilly's office. He has a whole floor of the East Block. He has the Governor General's suite.

• 1535

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Bring the whole Parliament. They'll all fit.

The Chair: We could hold an informal meeting to which you'd all be invited, if we can make it and you're interested, or we could add on half an hour or something to one of the meetings next week. Can I have a show of hands? How many prefer an informal meeting? Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Laurin.

Mr. René Laurin: Mr. Chairman, it is not that I am not interested in going to the meeting, nor because I would not be pleased to visit you in your office, but I'm afraid that it would not be possible to arrange for simultaneous interpretation at your office. If we want a true dialogue, I must be treated just like everyone else. Unless you can assure me that we will have the same services in English and in French...

[English]

The Chair: No, I can't promise that there will be translation in my office. My French is only so-so. It's better than my assistant's. We'd have to have a room with translation.

[Translation]

The Clerk: If necessary, we can send someone to do consecutive interpretation, if you wish. You wouldn't like that? The people organizing the meeting, however, will provide interpretation and a meeting room, if you wish.

Mr. René Laurin: But the interpreter cannot be too close to me.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Why?

Mr. René Laurin: It's too distracting.

[English]

The Chair: How do you know? You haven't seen the translator yet. You'd better reserve judgment, René.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: Relax, there's no one beside me.

[English]

The Chair: You choose the translator.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: All I said was that it may be too distracting.

The Chair: Exactly, yes. I understand.

[English]

Elsie.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: The national prayer breakfast is on Wednesday morning and Thursday as well, as you know. So it is a very busy time, and we have a—

The Chair: We have to meet with them one way or another. Mr. Laurin makes a good point, though. It's not just René. Bob's first language is French. It's nice to have the option to go to your first language even if you're bilingual. So we need a room with translation.

The Clerk: They were going to take care of that.

The Chair: Okay.

So now the options are two: do you want a special meeting, at which we could be embarrassed if I'm the only guy there—person there, sorry, Elsie—or do we want to tack on half an hour to one of the three meetings next week?

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Do you mean when George comes?

The Chair: Yes, or to any of those. Could we start with these people and then ask the minister to come after that?

The Clerk: I don't see why not.

The Chair: We could start with the Latvian people.

The meeting with the Minister of Veterans Affairs on the estimates is not usually that long. We could tack them on to that session.

Following the veterans affairs matters on Tuesday, there are the NGOs. They don't have much of a brief or anything. I think they're just here to mention their concerns in person. We could add them on to that meeting.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: The big problem I have is that I'm the chair of the national prayer breakfast this year, and we meet on Wednesday from 4 in the afternoon until 8 that night. We start again the next morning at 8.

The Chair: What about Tuesday afternoon, then, Elsie?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Tuesday's fine.

The Chair: Can we say that the best solution is that we invite the Latvian Speaker and whoever is with him to come to our committee meeting on Tuesday afternoon? The biographies are in your offices now.

[Translation]

The Clerk: They are in English and in French.

The Chair: They are in both official languages.

[English]

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Could it be done on Wednesday morning, Pat?

The Chair: The caucuses meet on Wednesday morning.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That's right.

The Chair: So we'll invite them for Tuesday afternoon. Eugene can take care of the scheduling as to whether we talk to them first and then the vets or the other way around.

So next week's quite a busy one. That takes care of next week.

• 1540

Who can give us an update on when the members will have the draft report sent to their offices? Corinne.

Ms. Corinne McDonald (Committee Researcher): We met this morning with the production people on the House side. The document is finished in English, and it's going to translation. We gave them a deadline of the 5th or 6th for the French version. It'll take a little bit of time to format it. Then we propose that it be distributed to members either through your office or through the clerk. They then would have time over the weekend to consider that, and we could meet possibly on the Tuesday following, which is the 11th.

The Chair: So the week of the 11th we should be ready to take a look at this draft report. It's the week of April 10, actually. The week before we break for Easter, we would be able to get into the draft report. Members would have had it en français et en anglais for the previous weekend, and then we'll go at it the next week.

[Translation]

Is that all right with you, René?

Mr. René Laurin: When you say we will get the report for the weekend, does that mean you will send it to us Friday night or Saturday morning?

Ms. Corinne McDonald: Of next week.

Mr. René Laurin: I understand, but that would mean that we would have it for the weekend. Therefore, we would get it on Friday.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: No. As far as I know, the translation will be ready by the 5th or the 6th. Then the text needs to be formatted. The 6th is a Thursday. As soon as it is ready, it will be sent to the clerk who will then directly forward it to committee members.

Mr. René Laurin: The problem, Mr. Chairman, is that when documents are sent to our offices Friday evening, well, nobody is around on Saturday or Sunday.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: No, it won't be on Friday, but on Thursday.

Mr. René Laurin: On Thursday, the report will be formatted.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: The report will be formatted on Thursday and will be ready to be sent out in the afternoon.

Mr. René Laurin: So, is it possible to receive it Friday morning?

Ms. Corinne McDonald: Yes, or even sooner.

Mr. René Laurin: That would be better, because Western MPs want to leave on Friday, and so do we, so that by 3 p.m. there is no one at the office anymore. We're on our way.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: That's right. We think it will be ready by Thursday evening.

Mr. René Laurin: That's fine. Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Fair enough. That's a good point. If for some reason we don't have it on Thursday, then we'll have to give members more time to read it and absorb it. But it would be nice to start looking at the draft report on Tuesday, April 11, if we have it in our hands in good time.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: It has been reduced to 25 pages.

The Chair: So it's not a huge—

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance): Is that because the print has been made smaller? I know about that trick from the past.

The Chair: Art, you may have figured out by now, if you didn't know already, that the witness had to cancel because of illness.

Mr. Art Hanger: I wasn't aware of that until half an hour ago.

The Chair: We all just found out. So we're going over future business. Did you hear that the Latvian Speaker is coming next week and wants to meet with us? On Tuesday there will be RMA witnesses. On Wednesday there will a special two-hour meeting with the Minister of National Defence on the estimates.

What time is that, Eugene?

The Clerk: It's at 3:30 p.m.

The Chair: On Thursday at 9 a.m. the Minister of Veterans Affairs will be appearing on the estimates.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Just on that, on Thursday morning there's the national prayer breakfast. I'm wondering if we could move it to 10 a.m. when everybody would be out.

The Chair: Do you want us to move the meeting to 10 a.m.?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, instead of 9 a.m.

The Chair: That's okay with me. The clerk will try to accommodate that. Is it agreeable to members that instead of going from 9 to 11, we would go from 10 to 12? Some members will be tied up at the prayer breakfast and so on. It's just one hour.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: How many?

[English]

How many members will be participating?

[Translation]

Prayer breakfast meetings are held on a regular basis on Thursdays. Will we have to delay our meetings each week?

[English]

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No, this doesn't come up regularly. This is the national prayer breakfast that is held once a year. All the ambassadors from around the country attend it, along with the Senate and people from the community. They're coming from across the country, from British Columbia to Newfoundland.

• 1545

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: I don't mind the senators being there. Nor do I mind the ambassadors being there. But if I want to pray in the morning, I just get up earlier. I can pray at 6:30 in the morning and it does not affect my schedule for the rest of the day.

[English]

The Chair: Say a couple for me, will you.

In fairness to our colleague Mrs. Wayne, who is chairing this—and it is a very important function, seriously—if the majority agrees, we'll try to start it again.

Elsie, we may not be able to get George, that's the problem. If we can only get the minister at 9 a.m., we won't have any choice.

Mr. Art Hanger: I would assume the minister would be at the prayer breakfast, too, would he not?

The Chair: He should be. He's such an angel.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Chair: You'd think he'd probably be there in one way or another.

Okay, is that all right?

Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: There's a question I would like to ask, and maybe there's even a request, if it can be put in that fashion, after I get some input from the members of this committee.

I'm aware of a training module that has been presented to the military for basic recruits. This computerized module is quite unique. There's nothing like it in North America, from what I understand. It's superior to what even the military uses presently to train their recruits. It may be from the handling of guns to describing what the pattern of shells is like when they hit the ground, and what to avoid and what to expect.

Given the fact that DND does not have its fingerprint right on this particular training module, I'm wondering if this committee would entertain viewing this module for an opinion and getting some input as to how this might be applicable to the military, if at all.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Mr. Chairman, I must say to my colleague that if it is a National Defence video, there is no problem with us watching it. I have taken what has been said into consideration and I will inform the committee as soon as we can watch it.

[English]

The Chair: Let's refer it to the parliamentary secretary to see if we can set up a time or something.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Yes. By then, I will also know how long the film is and, if it is not too long, perhaps we can watch it before or after a meeting.

[English]

The Chair: Art, can we refer it to Bob and ask him to report back to us in the near future?

Mr. Art Hanger: I would be more than pleased to do that. This module has been used in some of the militia areas. It was put together outside the military, but it has been utilized by some of the militia units. It can be as long as you would want it to be. The presentation will just show you what the module is like, and its significance and its benefits for the military overall.

I would be pleased to personally refer to you the people who put this together.

The Chair: Okay. So, Bob, you'll get back to us on that?

Mr. Art Hanger: Mr. Laurin asked if it was a bilingual document and a bilingual presentation. It's not at this point, but it can be made that way.

The Chair: The rule is very clear. If we're going to see anything at committee, it has to be—

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: Let's wait until it is available in both languages and then we can watch it here.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: If it is a National Defence video, I am sure it will be available in both official languages.

[English]

If it's produced by National Defence—

Mr. Art Hanger: It's not DND. It's being used by some militia, but it is made outside. It does not have a DND fingerprint on it. I already said that up front.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Okay.

• 1550

The Chair: Maybe we could refer it to Bob, and if he needs more information he can get hold of Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: I will give the module and the names of the people who created it directly to this individual—

The Chair: The parliamentary secretary.

Mr. Art Hanger: The parliamentary secretary, yes. And it can certainly be explained in French if necessary, and I certainly would encourage that.

The Chair: But I think it was unanimous at this committee that we all support the idea that anything that's submitted for members, written or otherwise, is in the two official languages. We have to make sure that's always done.

Is there anything else that anybody has?

Mr. George Proud: Mr. Chair, you mentioned some months ago that we were planning to go to Kosovo. Is that off?

The Chair: We had hopes to go to Kosovo, with a side trip to London.

Mr. George Proud: I see the troops are now standing for another month over there.

The Chair: Yes.

We also had hopes to go to Charlottetown in the spring. We haven't bothered to try to put another trip in at this point, because we weren't sure there was much point given the tone of things in the House. I don't know. What does the committee think? If you want, we could resubmit such a trip.

I can and should share with the committee members here that I attended a meeting of the liaison committee recently, which includes the chairs of all the committees. Really, there was a serious discussion around the fact that most of the people in the room, including some opposition members, felt it's crazy that you can go through all the work, plan out a very good, very useful trip for the committee's work, and then have it killed by even one member or because one party is mad. Today it's this party, the next day it's another party, or even one individual.

So they're seriously taking a look at considering a way to change the rules, because there's a feeling among many colleagues about the privileges of the opposition—and I certainly share that feeling as one MP. We understand that those privileges are there and that the opposition has to use its tactics, but when you can frustrate the valuable work of a committee and can continue to frustrate it indefinitely, there's something wrong.

Mr. George Proud: May I make a comment in reference to your comment?

I agree with you that a committee should certainly have the mandate to shape its own destiny—and I know that word has been used a lot by members here. But the truth of the matter is that we can't and never have shaped our own destiny. It has been very much a top-down process. Yes, the frustration may exist on the part of an opposition member wanting to cancel his or her involvement, which then creates a problem for the whole committee, but until the structure really changes at the committee level, I don't see anything more valuable than to have a lever, whether we like it or not. I know the Liberals have used that lever in the past when they sat in opposition. To take it away I think is a mistake, even if it does in fact frustrate a little bit of the activity of the committee and it's not beneficial.

The Chair: There are certainly those who share your view, but I'll just tell you that it's under active consideration by that liaison committee. So stay tuned.

Does anybody else have anything? Let me go right around and give everybody a chance, and then I'll come back to you, Art.

René, anything else?

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: Mr. Chairman, you have given me a golden opportunity to say that it is sometimes better when the other side feels frustrated. It is very frustrating for the opposition when it wants to hear witnesses to defend its case, when the opposition wants to continue to explain its views and when it cannot do so because it is overruled by the government majority. That's why I understand why you are frustrated that the opposition is using the rules to limit the government's powers.

In this case, it is good to be reminded of the fact that since opposition members were muzzled in other committees, despite the fact that they should have been allowed to speak out, particularly in the case of the committee studying Bill C-20, you would probably not have to deal with our reticence today.

I think there is a lesson to be learned from this. Mr. Chairman, it's not that the Standing Orders are bad, it's the way they have often been abused in the face of objection from the opposition. This is a good opportunity to make that case.

• 1555

[English]

The Chair: This is the United Alternative gone too far. They're going to separate over that.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: This might be the new Alliance's approach.

[English]

The Chair: Have a referendum in Alberta and Quebec,

[Translation]

in both provinces at the same time.

[English]

Next we'll have the NDP and the Tories getting....

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: You will have to add a prayer to that.

[English]

The Chair: We take your comments, Monsieur Laurin. We all know what has been going on. There are different points of view. That's called democracy. I won't belabour it, but I think a lot of the rules around this place leave a lot to be desired, whichever side of the House you sit on. I think it's time to look at some of them, but we'll see.

Mr. Earle, do you have anything?

Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): There's just one thing I want to raise. I have a constituent who wants to appear before this committee. He had written before, and we thought at that point that maybe we would get him up here when we were talking about the merchant marine. He actually got his request in too late, though, and we were kind of finished our report at that point.

I'm just wondering if there's any way this gentleman can appear before the committee in connection with any of these other topics we're discussing. You mentioned earlier about having some other veterans come before the committee, along with the person who was supposed to speak today. Are they speaking specifically on the RMA?

The Chair: I think I may be aware of what you're talking about. The problem is that if you have a constituent that has an individual grievance, if you will, or if it's a case that they want to highlight, the committee doesn't function as a collective ombudsman. You take that to the PS, really, and convince him to go to the bureaucrats and the minister and so on. If it's that type of case, that's how you proceed with it. If you have a constituent who wants to be a witness, he has to tie into what we're doing. That's the problem. I would recommend that you talk to Bob.

Mr. Gordon Earle: I was just curious as to whether or not there's anything coming up that we could tie him into.

The Chair: What's his concern?

Mr. Gordon Earle: He did have some concerns around the merchant navy and around the way he was treated just generally by the government with respect to the military. It is kind of along the lines of a personal concern, but it's to the point where he wants to give back his war medals. He earned certain medals and he wants to give these back. He tried to do that through me, but I didn't really feel I should be accepting his medals. I thought if he had a hearing before the committee, if he could put out some of the concerns he has and heard back from people, it might somehow convince him a little bit differently.

The Chair: The clerk discussed this with me, so I'm familiar with it. Unfortunately, it's my judgment that I don't know how you really could fit him in here. What I'd suggest is that he talk to you and to the parliamentary secretary.

There's also Monsieur Marin, the ombudsman. I had lunch with him on his role, really, and he would love to come back to the committee again soon. But he assured me that they do work with vets as well, or would do some work. So there are a couple of options there.

The clerk is working on getting Monsieur Marin back in the near future, so that might be a chance to raise it too.

I'm just going to go around and see if anybody has anything, and then we'll be done.

Mrs. Wayne.

Mr. Gordon Earle: I'm sorry, but there's just one other topic.

The Chair: Okay, Mr. Earle.

Mr. Gordon Earle: It is more in line with what we're doing.

Are the aboriginal vets a topic that we have scheduled to look at?

The Chair: That topic is on our list of topics to look at, but I don't believe it's scheduled yet. It has been raised at least twice at the steering committee, and it is on our short list of things to do, yes.

Mrs. Wayne.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Is the Sea King situation on our list of things to discuss? Where are we with that one?

The Chair: Mr. Bertrand, do you have any flashes for us about the Sea King situation?

• 1600

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, on procurement and replacement of the Sea Kings and what have you...?

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

Elsie, the only thing I can mention to you is that it's on the minister's desk.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, I know. He told me that he—

Mr. Robert Bertrand: As an educated guess, I would say, I don't know, a couple of months.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: A couple of months....

The Chair: I don't think I'm telling any tales out of school—I think you know yourself—but the Minister of National Defence is getting a little frustrated, I think. He was hoping to have this announcement a long time ago.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, that's right.

The Chair: I can assure you that there's no tie-up at his end.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Exactly—everything's ready to go.

The Chair: We certainly hope we'll see it, in the very worst scenario, before we break for summer—and I hope sooner.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Okay.

The Chair: Elsie.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: When I was in Brussels and we met with the European Union government officials, I brought up ballistic missiles in order to find out just where the EU stood. As you know, the European Union represents 15 countries at the present time and they're working to grow and multiply that. When it comes to ballistic missiles, it's absolutely no way, as I assume you know. They don't feel we should be involved at all.

But the United States has now gone to the United Kingdom. They have a radar site in London, England. They've talked to the government there. Robert Sturdy, who is the chairperson from London, England, stated that he believes there will be a positive announcement from London, England, about them setting up and expanding upon their existing radar site and turning it into one that could detect missiles. They did bring to our attention that our foreign affairs minister was not in favour of it; they knew that. I suggest that our defence people are, but anyway, they themselves have concerns because of the old treaty that's there. I just thought you should be made aware of that.

The Chair: That's good to know.

Elsie, when you were away, on the very trip you're talking about, there were British officials here last week. I met with some of them privately and I'm sure some other members might have. Then when we had our foreign affairs people here, I made that point to them: that there's a growing feeling in Britain that the U.S. will go ahead with this and that they should probably look for some participation as well.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That's right.

The Chair: I'm talking about the U.K. specifically. As for the attitude in Europe, there's not just one point of view on it.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That's right.

The Chair: George.

Mr. George Proud: I just want to make a point on what Elsie was talking about and just make it clear that what the United States is talking about has nothing to do with ballistic missiles. They're not making ballistic missiles. They're making interceptors to take out—

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: To take out ballistic missiles—

Mr. George Proud: Yes, anything they're talking about has nothing to do with nuclear weapons.

The Chair: The name of this veterans' group that's coming to see us is Veterans Against Nuclear Arms, and these are not nuclear arms, but now, of course, their concern will likely be the same as that put forward by our own Minister Axworthy and others: that there's a possibility it could lead to a return to a nuclear arms race.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Just on that—

The Chair: I don't necessarily share that.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: —we also met with Admiral King and had lunch with him in Brussels. He told me that he has been involved with this for five years. As he stated, in the United States they haven't been successful. They've attempted to have an intervention, which you're referring to, so that if there were a missile that came.... He said they have not been successful. His opinion is that it would take another five to ten years before they would be in a position, really, if a missile were coming for them, to have something in place to take it out.

The Chair: Thank you.

Anything else, George?

Bob.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I was just listening, monsieur le président, to the people on the other side. It seems to me that there seems to be an agreement now that maybe we could look at a possible trip either to Kosovo or to the United States. I'd like to ask this of each and every one of them on the other side: if we were to look at another trip right now, would they see any objections to it?

The Chair: What's your best guess on the Reform—sorry, on the Canadian Alliance?

Mr. Art Hanger: Canadian Alliance—please don't forget that.

• 1605

The Chair: [Inaudible—Editor]...who you're supporting—

Mr. Art Hanger: I supported it the first time around. I think it's very essential—

An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor]...leadership support.

Mr. Art Hanger: I haven't committed myself there yet. But, gentlemen, I tell you that this is going to be a race like none other ever seen. The Liberal Party does not do politics the way the Canadian Alliance will.

Going back to—

Mr. John O'Reilly: An itchy hip and you rip your whole rear end out trying to fix it—

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Art Hanger: I can understand that it would certainly frustrate a Liberal to see this kind of politics done, but don't you worry, we'll get our backside all together and we'll come over and steamroller you.

The Chair: We're losing our non-partisan flavour.

Let's go back then.

Mr. Art Hanger: Going back to the trip, we supported it to begin with, and I think it's essential that we do go. It's a matter of when, for me. I may not be available but someone in my party will be.

The Chair: [Inaudible—Editor]...the leadership.

Mr. Art Hanger: Oh, yes.

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Laurin.

Mr. René Laurin: I apologize, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: I apologize, Madam.

Mr. René Laurin: You see, Mr. Chairman, I was right. It is very distracting when they are too close.

The Chair: Yes, that's true.

[English]

Your colleague, Monsieur Bertrand, is wondering if each member on the opposition could give us a feeling for whether there's any point in us putting forward a trip on RMA for this committee at this time, either to the U.S.A. or to Kosovo and London.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: Mr. Chairman, before we make that kind of decision, I think it is better to put down in writing the objectives of the trip. Only then can we be in a position to assess the objectives based on our own criteria. If we cannot avoid travel, and if it is not only in the interest of the committee, but also in the interest of all Quebeckers—that's what we're here for—and of government policy, and if we can only get the information by travelling, I don't think we would say no. In the case of a trip to Kosovo, I don't think it is possible to ask the soldiers serving over there to come before the committee and to talk about their experiences over there. It's easier for us to go there.

But in other cases, when we only need to hear from one or two witnesses, it may be easier to have them come here than to send 12 committee members to Washington. In the future, it is in that spirit that I myself will study the requests to travel which are presented to us.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Art Hanger: I believe what Mr. Laurin was really saying was “oui”.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: Oh, yes.

[English]

Mr. Art Hanger: Let's hope so.

The Chair: We hope so.

Mr. René Laurin: I'd like to say I'd say “yes”.

[Translation]

Isn't it nice to say yes.

[English]

The Chair: I could ask my friend for those written reasons on some other trips, but no.

Gordon, would the NDP support one of these trips?

Mr. Gordon Earle: We'd probably continue as we've done in the past. We usually support the trips when they're organized and have the purpose of mind that's appropriate. Yes.

The Chair: It's a given that we're not going on a holiday. It would need to have a serious purpose and show what it is. We always—

Mr. John O'Reilly: A holiday in Kosovo?

The Chair: That's what I mean. It's not my idea of a holiday.

Elsie, do you think the Conservative Party would support it?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: As long as Charles Caccia is not the chairperson.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Chair: We're trying to trade him to the NDP for a case of beer. That's said just in jest. Charles is a good colleague of mine.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: He's a real good man.

The Chair: And a good friend.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: He's a good man—

The Chair: He is—and I mean Guiness.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: —but he just doesn't understand anything except work.

The Chair: Thank you.

Bob, I hear some encouragement there, but maybe what I could ask you to do—and then I'm going to go to you—is to work with Gene to put down the objectives the department and the committee would see for the trip to the States, if that's the way we go, or for Kosovo and London, if that's the way we go.

[Translation]

Mr. Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Mr. Chairman, I liked what René said. Perhaps that is something we should seriously consider for future travel. It should be put in writing and before we make any decision, even before you go before the Liaison Committee to obtain funding, every committee member should sign the paper. If you do it this way, and if everyone is in agreement, you will be able to show the Liaison Committee that you have received the written consent of committee members from all parties. I don't think we should do it in this case only, but every time a trip comes up.

• 1610

[English]

Mr. George Proud: They have to go to their House leader.

The Chair: You've been chair of this committee, and George has too. It would help the chair, who has to defend these trips verbally at this committee anyway. I haven't had any big trouble doing that, but it still would help; it would give you more ammunition if you had that in writing. So I think it's a good idea, just in principle, what Mr. Laurin is talking about. I'll take that under advisement.

Mr. O'Reilly, do you have any points to raise?

Mr. John O'Reilly: None at all.

Mr. Wood, do you have anything to raise?

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): I have just a couple of things.

On Gordon's question about the aboriginal veterans, I believe there are negotiations going on between Indian Affairs and Veterans Affairs. They've been going on for quite a while. Hopefully, we'll be able to come to some kind of agreement on their particular problems.

Veterans Affairs is having some legislation come before the House, probably some time in the middle of May. It will deal with a number of things. A couple of things I can remember are some of the things that have already been announced, just in taking care of the Newfoundland Overseas Foresters, Red Cross, and—

Mr. John O'Reilly: Ferry Command.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, there's Ferry Command, which has already been done, but we need legislation for it. There will also be, I believe, some legislation in there that will take care of the present Canadian Forces and their injury problems, pensions, and everything like that. That will be part of it. Hopefully, we'll get that done before we leave in June.

The Chair: Okay. Thank you.

On that, I guess both PSs will work under the assumption that if there is anything this committee is looking at possibly studying, and they see it is maybe a little more urgent to advance that topic, I want to encourage them to come here and convince us that topic should be advanced.

Bob, if you saw, let's say on aboriginal, that it might be useful for us to advance that topic, if the majority of the committee agreed, then we'd advance that. I know we've done this a couple of times, but could we get just a refresher, just a one-page memo, Eugene, on the other major topics we've discussed as future topics? I know that's been given out a couple of times.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: Unfortunately, it's a bit longer than one page, but Eugene has—

The Chair: It's a lot more than one page. We'll recirculate that, though. All right. Thanks.

Judi, do you have anything?

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): No. I came in late, and I always object to people who ask questions after all of it has been decided, so I have no questions.

The Chair: Right. The witness cancelled, so we're just brainstorming.

Okay, back to René.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: You raised the issue of veterans, Mr. Chairman. Since we are meeting somewhat informally, if I might, I would like to ask Bob a question. Someone asked me this, and there was reference to it in the newspapers. It was a decision made by the Minister of Veterans Affairs, and people are wondering what led the Minister to make the decision: I'm referring to supplying Viagra to veterans. The department decided that it was going to pay for Viagra for veterans. It's not that I am against the idea, but I would like to know the justification for this decision. That would help me answer people's questions.

[English]

The Chair: Do you want a typical, philosophical, or technical answer?

Bob would straighten out their lives.

Mr. Bob Wood: I can't stop them from rolling out of bed.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: I understand. It is possible to answer the question jokingly, Mr. Chairman, but it is serious. I know that the effects of Viagra are designed to improve these people's lives, but why improve their lives and not the lives of others who are entitled to drugs? This is the only group in society for whom the cost of this drug is paid, if it can be called a drug. So why was the decision made to pay for it for veterans, and not under other health programs? For example, we don't pay for it for soldiers who are on missions, but we cover the cost for veterans.

• 1615

[English]

Mr. Bob Wood: That does happen, right?

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: The idea, René, is that all soldiers, whether they are active members of the Canadian Forces or veterans, are entitled to the same programs as any other Canadian. People living in Quebec or any other province are entitled to obtain this drug. We cannot penalize people because they are members of the Canadian Forces.

Mr. René Laurin: It is not a drug that everyone can get. Well, I don't want to get into a long debate, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: If it is prescribed by a doctor...

[English]

Mr. Bob Wood: I'll find out for you.

Mr. John O'Reilly: I can lend you a couple until Friday.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: If it is prescribed by a doctor and if people have group insurance through their employer, they can get it.

Mr. René Laurin: So the Minister's decision applies to prescriptions only.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Just to prescriptions.

[English]

The Chair: You're making the chairman nervous with some of these topics.

Seriously, though, on any questions like that, pursue them individually.

Mr. Art Hanger: I think if that question is going to be asked and an answer is going to be forthcoming, there should also be one forthcoming on why the military used saltpetre a number of years ago, which had the opposite effect of Viagra.

I'm going to raise one other topic—

The Chair: One more topic.

Mr. Art Hanger: When the issue of the helicopters came up, I gather there was a sudden demand on the part of the military to put the deputy minister of materiel before this committee to describe what processes were taking place in the procurement issue and some of the changes they provoked.

The Chair: Do you mean Williams?

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, I am talking about Williams. A question was asked of him in reference to the marine helicopter, since he was here. He had no answer to that and referred this committee to General Baril on that particular issue.

I assume that General Baril would bring someone else who had the expertise and was familiar with the maritime helicopter. I'm wondering if we can't have both General Baril and that particular person here to finalize that deal before any helicopter announcement is made. I think it's important that this committee hear them.

The Chair: General Baril is one person who you might say is the star witness or major witness for this committee, on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: He's a four-star witness.

The Chair: Yes. For one thing, he continues to update us on quality of life. We were going to have him back soon anyway on quality of life. If your suggestion is to have him back even sooner, we can invite him on anything we want to raise, really. If you want to have him back sooner than what we were already considering, that's up to the committee.

In fairness to Mr. Williams, I remember the request came from him because he was a relatively new ADM. We were just about finished our procurement study and he wanted an opportunity to contribute, so that's why he came when he did. Really, we were done.

So there's a suggestion from Mr. Hanger on the floor. Let me hear what you have to say. Is there a desire to have General Baril come to this committee in the very near future?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Yes, agreed.

The Chair: We will make the request. Do you want to bring him as soon as we can get him and just set other hearings aside?

• 1620

Mr. Art Hanger: After Easter.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: First week after Easter.

The Chair: If we have to take a break from RMA for one day, we will. Is that what we're saying? Okay.

Mr. Clerk?

The Clerk: Yes.

The Chair: Agreed. Are there any other points?

Colleagues, our researcher, Corinne McDonald, is involved in The Pirates of Penzance by Gilbert and Sullivan. I'm sure it's a very professional play. It's supporting the Children's Wish Foundation. I'm going to let Corinne finish her own commercial announcement. We're looking for support for this play for the Children's Wish Foundation.

Ms. Corinne McDonald: I realize you're all very busy, but for any who are interested in musical theatre and operetta, the proceeds go to the Children's Wish Foundation. Unfortunately it's in English only, but it's still amusing nonetheless. The show opens this Friday, March 31, and runs until the following Saturday. The best seats are left on Wednesday the 5th and Thursday the 6th. That's next week. Tickets are $20 at Centrepointe Theatre. If you want any more information, I have it.

The Chair: Monsieur Laurin is not only interested in music, he has a pretty good voice. We sat together in Munich and watched a very nice.... We didn't have written objectives for that trip, though, René.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: I would be pleased to encourage you in your endeavour. If you would like to accept an invitation to go to the Saint-Denis theatre in Montreal, to see a fine play in French, that would be most pleasant.

[English]

The Chair: Very good.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I would also invite all of you this Saturday night. I'm performing at the theatre with the Minister of Finance. I'm supposed to be his wife in a musical in Fredericton, New Brunswick, and we're going to perform about the budget. They asked me to be.... God knows.

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Chair: Our Minister of Finance?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No, no.

The Chair: I was going to say....

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No. Norm Betts, the Minister of Finance for the provincial government. They've asked me to perform and I'm to be his wife. I'm not quite sure, because if they cut the budget to a certain point, I have to come in shorts. I'm sorry.

The Chair: Oh boy, oh boy.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That will be it.

The Chair: Because Corinne's involved, we'll circulate this memo, and if anybody's interested and they can support it, that's great.

Art.

Mr. Art Hanger: I have one final comment. I'm actually going to direct this over to Mr. Bertrand.

Monsieur Laurin and I had a conversation about the video. He had concerns that it was not going to be presented in French. The presenter should be able to present it in one language with interpretation. Since it is visual, it will be explained by the presenter. Mr. Bertrand, I will let you talk with the originator of this particular module.

The Chair: Just a minute, René. I think we should leave it this way.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: That is not what I said, Mr. Chairman, I said that if we could get a simultaneous interpretation of the video- cassette, I could, for once, agree with this. However, I do not agree with listening to the video-cassette in English and having the presenter provide explanations afterward, because I will have 30 seconds of explanation for comments that last three minutes. I do not find that acceptable.

[English]

An hon. member: It should be done at the same time.

The Chair: We did that. We did the British one we had. Remember? Frankly, it won't even come to the members, because I'm going enforce your rule on this or anything else. You have to be hearing and seeing the same thing at the same time in the two languages. That's all.

Anything else? Bob.

Mr. Bob Wood: Since everybody was talking about their theatrical experiences, I just want to let the committee know that I'll be in the play The Naked and The Dead and I'll be playing both parts.

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Chair: I heard that, yes.

With that, I don't know how else we can adjourn.