FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, June 8, 2000

• 0946

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.)): Colleagues, we are here pursuant to standing orders respecting an examination of Order in Council appointments, following a motion by the Canadian Alliance to that effect.

Our witness for this purpose is Grace White, pursuant to an Order in Council appointment, who is a director on the Board of Directors of the Export Development Corporation.

I will just remind colleagues with regard to our own responsibilities that questions are limited to the qualifications and competence of the witness to perform the duties of the post to which he or she has been appointed or nominated. Those are the terms of reference for this purpose.

I'm happy to call upon the witness, Grace White, to offer her remarks.

Ms. Grace White (Director, Board of Directors, Export Development Corporation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to meet with the committee.

As you've mentioned, Mr. Chairman, the purpose of today's session is to review my reappointment to the EDC board of directors. To help facilitate this process, I would like to share with you what I feel to be my most pertinent qualifications for this position, and then I will be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Before beginning, I'd like to take a moment to reiterate the role of the EDC's board, that is, to provide effective stewardship through active involvement in all facets of corporate activity.

In particular, I'm a member of two committees: the business development committee and the audit committee. The business development committee assists the board by providing policy direction to enhance EDC's ability to meet the evolving needs of the market, taking into account factors related to the industrial sector and regional economy.

I believe my most significant qualification for the EDC's board, and more specifically the business development committee, is my status as a business person who started out running a small business from the basement of my home and who has grown that business through exports.

A full 97% of Canadian exporters are small businesses, and it is therefore critical that EDC understands and considers the needs of small business in all major business decisions. I bring value-added to the EDC board because I am an exporter and I understand the struggles that are faced by small and medium-sized businesses in the global arena.

I started my company, CanJam Trading Ltd., in 1987 by looking beyond our local markets and to the global marketplace. At that point I was unable to receive any financing from any of the Canadian charted banks to finance foreign receivables, so it was extremely difficult to capitalize on the opportunity I found in the global marketplace. At that time I had to sell 20% of my company to raise the needed capital to explore the opportunities and to create employment for myself and the two people I started the company with.

• 0950

Through being able to ensure our receivables, which started with EDC in 1997, we were able to grow our global marketing from $20 million in 1997 to $30 million in 1998, followed by $50 million in 1999. This is what is so important about the role of the EDC, to support Canadian business and enable them to take advantage of the many opportunities. More importantly, these opportunities create employment in all regions of Canada.

I think it's important for me to note for the committee that as a customer of EDC and being able to ensure my receivables and get the proper bank credit line, we've been able to utilize the services of 10 fish plants in local communities in Nova Scotia that have very high employment, and we continue to do so.

CanJam has enjoyed tremendous growth. We currently distribute food products to customers all over the world, including the Caribbean, the United States, Asia, Europe, and Africa, and of course we have a domestic market in Canada. As I mentioned, last year through export sales our company sales grew to over $50 million.

I have been committed to the small business community for the last 20 years. I believe it's an integral part of the Canadian economy and accounts for the largest area of job creation.

Because of my commitment to my community and to the local business within the Nova Scotia area, I have participated on several boards and committees. These include the Nova Scotia Council on High Education; the Board of Directors of the Nova Scotia Business Development Corporation; the Royal Bank of Canada's National Entrepreneurial Advisory Council; the Advisory Board of the Frank H. Sobey Faculty of Commerce; the board of governors of St. Mary's University; and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade's business, professional, and educational service committee. My former membership in these groups has provided me with a broad understanding of the issues facing Canadian business, especially being an exporter and a small and medium-sized business owner.

I have also had the opportunity to take on the role of director for several organizations. These include the Human Resources Development Association of Halifax, the Metropolitan Halifax Chamber of Commerce, and the Nova Scotia Trade Council.

In addition to my experience as a business owner who is an exporter, as well as my long-standing involvement in the business community, I believe my academic qualifications are also of value to the board's role within EDC.

The second committee of the board that I belong to is the audit committee. This committee assists the board in fulfilling its responsibilities in relation to, among other things, financial reporting and performance measurement, the safeguarding of corporate assets, corporate financing and treasury management, and internal and external audits.

As a member of this committee, I'm able to put my strong finance background to good use. I graduated from St. Mary's University in Halifax with a Bachelor of Commerce. Prior to starting CanJam Trading Ltd., I held the designation of registered financial planner and was a member of the Canadian Association of Financial Planners. Most recently, I was honoured to receive an honorary Doctorate of Commerce degree from St. Mary's University.

Now that I have briefly outlined my career and educational experience in relation to the EDC board, I would like to mention one last point: I'm a woman. Yes, I realize that I'm stating the obvious. But EDC is a leader, and as such, it is one of only a handful of Canadian corporations that have welcomed women board members or minority board members. In a recent issue of Report On Business Magazine, it noted that women hold only 6.2% of all board seats across Canada. This is certainly not representative of Canadian business people, nor is it representative of the Canadian population as a whole.

• 0955

EDC's board also comprises three other highly qualified women.

I would like to pause here, so that I may provide the committee with an opportunity to put forward its questions.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Thank you, Ms. White, for your exposition on the role of the EDC, particularly in relation to the needs of small business, and your own business and academic qualifications and experience, including, I might add, the reference to gender equity in this regard.

We're now open for questions.

Mr. Forseth.

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance): Hello, and welcome to the committee. I appreciate your outlining your small business background as an exporter. What kinds of products were you exporting? I assume they're from Canada.

Ms. Grace White: Oh absolutely—Atlantic mackerel, herring, salt fish. We also export beef livers, pig's tail, and pig's feet. I think our area of expertise is to take a lot of underutilized items and find markets for them.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Are you still involved in that business?

Ms. Grace White: Absolutely.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Do you have partners?

Ms. Grace White: I have a 20% partner in CanJam. I have other companies. I own a fish plant called Atlantic Pearl Seafoods Limited. The partner I have is the partner that.... If you recall my opening remarks, I could not raise the financing needed to capitalize on the opportunity, so I sold 20% of CanJam in the second month to raise the capital I needed. I still have that partner today.

Mr. Paul Forseth: So in your start-up, were you ever a client of EDC?

Ms. Grace White: No, I wasn't a client of EDC in my start-up. I would say basically it's because, like many small business people, I wasn't aware of the services of EDC at that time. I really think EDC is a good-news story that needs to be told over and over.

I also was in the insurance industry, and most people...our human nature is that we don't want to pay for insurance, but if we can't afford to pay for the insurance, then we can't afford the claim.

Mr. Paul Forseth: So looking at your early difficulties in getting started, with your involvement now in EDC, have you been able to change that around, bring those sensitivities to EDC to make it more accessible to small business?

Ms. Grace White: Absolutely, and EDC's focus is on small and medium-sized business. Out of the 5,200 customers of EDC, over 4,500 are small and medium-sized businesses. EDC has just embarked upon an advertising campaign to increase awareness of the value EDC can offer to Canadian exporters—small and medium-sized ones.

Mr. Paul Forseth: So you've outlined a little bit about developing your own businesses, then having a community concern and joining various organizations or whatever. What do you think was the track that led you to be considered for an appointment to EDC in the first place? What led that way?

Ms. Grace White: I believe it was that I brought industry representation to the board, I had a proven track record and experience in business, and I had demonstrated my desire to help within my community.

Mr. Paul Forseth: I guess what I was trying to say is what brought you to the attention of EDC, or what was the mechanism of how you got involved in that process?

Ms. Grace White: Well, in 1993, I believe, I was the Canadian woman entrepreneur of the year in export competitiveness; therefore, I received a certain amount of media attention. That's all that I'm aware of.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Did someone contact you? Were you introduced to somebody? Did someone phone you? How did this all get started?

Ms. Grace White: I received a call, I believe, from someone in the minister's office to ask if I would be willing to consider an appointment to the EDC board.

Mr. Paul Forseth: And that was how many years ago?

Ms. Grace White: That was in 1997.

Mr. Paul Forseth: How much time do you give to the board? What kind of time does it take versus your other duties?

Ms. Grace White: It takes approximately two days a month.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Plus correspondence or whatever.

Ms. Grace White: Yes. I would say it takes two days out of my month each month.

• 1000

Mr. Paul Forseth: I take it those two days are essentially board meetings, or what kinds of duties are they?

Ms. Grace White: There are board or committee meetings, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Paul Forseth: What kinds of issues are you dealing with that you're bringing to the board?

Ms. Grace White: There are no issues that I'm dealing with that I'm bringing to the board.

Mr. Chairman, my role as a medium-sized business person who's in the global marketplace brings industry experience and value-added to the board. That is my contribution to the board, as well as my being a Canadian citizen who is interested in the values we have in Canada and in bringing whatever benefit and knowledge I may have to the board.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): One more question and then we'll have to move on.

Mr. Paul Forseth: I was just wondering what your reaction was to this newspaper story in the Globe and Mail on March 27, 2000, questioning the independence of the Gowlings report from the EDC board members. Did you ever have any connection to or have any comment about the submission of the recommendations of the Gowlings report before it was finally completed?

An hon. member: That's out of order.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): The nature of the questions are supposed to be limited, as I indicated at the outset, to the competence and the qualifications of the witness. I think that particular question is out of order.

Mr. Paul Forseth: It's not out of order. That's—

An hon. member: But she's just been appointed, for God's sake.

Mr. Paul Forseth: She's already been on the board for a year. This is a reappointment.

Ms. Diane Marleau (Sudbury, Lib.): I think that's a terrible question.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): I was merely saying that your question must be related to the competence and the qualifications of the witness for the position. I do not think that is the case here.

[English]

Mr. Paul Forseth: All I can suggest to you is that she did serve on the committee. We're looking at personal qualifications and performance, and I suppose, in this public forum, it's for the public to evaluate the merits of the appointment based not only on background and qualifications, but also on the issues that are out in the general media, for example, the concern about who's on the board of EDC and what their connections are—both political connections and also in their regular performance. The issue of the Gowlings report is a national issue.

Mr. Bob Speller (Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, Lib.): Why don't you then, the next time you pick somebody to bring forward, pick somebody we appointed as a Liberal? She's one of the best non-partisan people we could have appointed.

Ms. Diane Marleau: The minister appointed Gowlings; EDC did not. That's the difference.

Mr. Paul Forseth: I was just asking.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): If you rephrase the question so that it will be in relation to the competence and qualifications of the witness, then the question will be in order.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Okay, something to do with...I just asked the broadest of questions. During the performance in her last term did she have anything to do with the Gowlings report?

Ms. Grace White: Mr. Chairman, when the Gowlings report was put to the public, I received a copy of it and was able to review it, just as any other citizen in Canada.

Ms. Diane Marleau: The Gowlings report was commissioned by the minister for the department of trade.

Mr. Paul Forseth: I understand that. We can argue that later.

Ms. Diane Marleau: I think the question is really obnoxious.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Ms. Debien now has the floor.

Ms. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Chairman, if we must limit ourselves to Ms. White's work background, then let us put an end to this, say goodbye and congratulate her for the nice document and nice resume. I have no questions for Ms. White if we must restrict ourselves to her employment qualifications, which are incidently considerable.

• 1005

I have however a question concerning a line in her opening remarks on which she insisted. It reads:

[...] I would like to mention one last point: I am a woman.

Of course, being a woman myself, as she so well put it, I am very happy about her appointment. She is indeed stating the obvious. But as a woman, I am concerned by the EDC. I hope you will allow me to ask her a question within that very limited frame.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Go ahead.

Ms. Maud Debien: My question is related to the one asked by our Reform colleague. First, there was the Gowlings report, followed by recommendations from this committee and questions that we, the BQ members of Parliament, raised in the report. As a woman, I am greatly concerned, just as my colleague Ms. Beaumier is, by human right issues. You know very well that the Bloc has tabled a dissenting opinion in which it notes that the EDC is not making much effort in this regard. I do not know if the witness can answer the question. As a woman—I am stating the obvious, as she expresses it so well—, does Ms. White also have concerns in this regard and could she tell us if these issues are also part of her thinking as a woman? I do not think such concerns are restricted to women, that is not what I am trying to say. Women are not the only ones concerned by human rights, but I am using this as a support.

[English]

Ms. Grace White: I think that's a very good question. EDC follows government policy on all issues of human rights. We take our lead from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

As a woman, I'm very concerned about human rights issues.

We don't set the policy—the government does—and as a board, EDC board members work within the framework of the policy set by the Government of Canada.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Ms. Debien, do you have another question?

Ms. Maud Debien: No, everything is fine.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Ms. Beaumier.

[English]

Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.): Madame Debien always hits on my issues, and usually I have nothing to say of particular intelligence after she has finished. However, that doesn't stop me.

First of all, Grace, I would like to say, as a woman, I'm extremely proud that you have been selected for this position, and perhaps I could help Mr. Forseth out by asking the question that was so obvious to all of us: are you a Liberal?

I say that somewhat facetiously, because I looked at your credentials and I listened to your presentation, and having come from farm country, I think the only thing left for us to check would be to see if your teeth are real.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): I must say, even this question is out of order in accordance with the rules of the questioning of witnesses. It says in the standing order rule, “strictly limited”. These are not my adjectives. It says, “strictly limited to qualifications and the competence of the witness”. That is not a relevant consideration.

Ms. Colleen Beaumier: I would be more than happy to withdraw it, as it was a bit facetious.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Okay.

Ms. Colleen Beaumier: I know you take your direction from government and from committee. However, I think Madame Debien and I and others on our committee have a bit of a problem with the sketchiness of the human rights implications. Would you be pushing for more controls when it comes to human rights?

• 1010

Ms. Grace White: I'd like to take this opportunity to state that as a widow raising two children and growing a business to $50 million, I have not had much time for anything other than that.

With regard to human rights, personally, I think that's most important. It's important that I share Canadian values, that Canadians be seen as doing the right thing.

It was such a pleasure for me when I came to the EDC, because as a citizen totally uninvolved in politics, I had seen EDC as just any other government corporation, and what I was pleasantly surprised about as a businessperson who pursues excellence was to see this same kind of excellence and entrepreneurial spirit and desire to serve in the staff and management of EDC.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Mr. Forseth, we'll return to you.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Thank you very much. I really appreciate your comments about your commitment to excellence. The relevance of your work in the past is that it goes to credentials for being reappointed.

As you know, one of the concerns in the House of Commons and the public discourse is the whole business of audits these days. I want to know your personal view of audits, perhaps based on some of the background that you brought to the job, before you were even appointed, the whole business of auditing and looking at benchmarks for the progress of whether you're accomplishing your business plans or not, and looking at your previous work to consider whether you should be appointed again.

Were you involved with two committees, the audit committee and the business development committee, and if so, what can you tell us about your attitudes towards internal and external audits, about the public disclosure, and just how they should be designed and used?

Ms. Grace White: In my last term, I was a member of the audit committee, as well as the business development committee. I will speak first to the audit committee.

EDC is audited by the Auditor General. We complete and provide comprehensive financial statements that are made public. EDC is a commercial entity as well as a crown corporation, and it therefore needs to have the right balance between the public's need to know and the confidentiality requirements of companies that are in a competitive environment.

EDC has just embarked upon a disclosure framework that has started with the public consultation process that will be going across Canada starting this month, to evolve a disclosure framework that will satisfy the need of the public to know and the need of business to have their confidentiality requirements met in order that their competitive edge is maintained.

Mr. Paul Forseth: As a follow-up question, in consideration of your beliefs that you bring to the table, you talked about your background and skills, which are considerable. Therefore you bring your wisdom to the table to influence and advise.

Perhaps we can look a little bit at environmental concerns, because often it's not so much what is being decided but who is doing that deciding and their own backgrounds and biases.

Maybe you can relate what you bring to the table to the issue that EDC refuses to adopt an environmental standard higher than the recognized world standard, and why the EDC continues to place commercial confidentiality provisions as the higher priority over disclosure of its environmental practices. You've mentioned those things. Perhaps you can give us some advice related to your influence on the board.

Ms. Grace White: EDC already uses World Bank standards as a benchmark. The vast majority of the projects supported by EDC conform to World Bank standards.

• 1015

In 1999 the EDC board approved and adopted an environmental review framework that all projects are measured against.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Ms. Lalonde, did you have a question?

[English]

Oh, you had another one, Mr. Forseth? Okay.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Thank you very much.

We appreciate you participating in this organization. At this point, based on all your other responsibilities, do you anticipate being appointed again? How many times is a person allowed to be repeatedly appointed? Do you know?

Ms. Grace White: I'm not sure of the answer to that question. Mr. Chairman, my reappointment is for a period of one year.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Okay. Are you anticipating, if all things go well, to continue with EDC for a while? Perhaps three or four years?

Ms. Grace White: Mr. Chairman, it's hard for me to anticipate the future.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): I also think that question is moving outside the appropriate terms of reference. Matters relating to the nomination process are not considered within the contours of our questioning. Again, I'm just citing the rules with respect to the committee.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Certainly. I just wondered why the committee is so touchy today.

Mr. Bob Speller: We're not touchy.

Mr. Paul Forseth: This is just to do with a person's expectations and their own plans about where they're going. But I can leave that question for now.

Ms. Diane Marleau: You may want to be king, but that doesn't mean you're going to be.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Oh, come on.

Ms. Diane Marleau: She's not the one who reappoints herself. It's not within her purview.

Mr. Paul Forseth: I understand that.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Ms. Debien.

Ms. Maud Debien: Again, I am not sure if I can ask such a question, but I will do it just the same and the witness can answer if she so wishes. I am not asking this out of curiosity, but I would like to know if the witness is payed to perform these duties. That is all I want to know. Are members of the EDC board paid to do this?

[English]

Ms. Grace White: Mr. Chairman, the board members receive a fee for each meeting they attend. I think it's very important to note that as a small business owner in the Canadian economy, I feel I volunteer my time to attend EDC board meetings and to do the necessary research so that as board members we can focus on the core issues and the policy issues of EDC. The remuneration for directors falls under the authority of the Governor in Council.

I would just like to state that I certainly am not a member of the EDC board because of the remuneration the directors make. I am running a very profitable $50 million organization, Mr. Chairman. Therefore my time with the EDC board is really for me as a citizen to give something back to my community and to give something back to Canada.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Mr. Paradis.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome-Missisquoi, Lib.): I will be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to take advantage of these few moments to congratulate you on the renewal of your term. Your resume is certainly impressive. I think the appointment of a businesswoman must be seen as an example to be followed by the government of Canada when appointing for example our agencies' board members.

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Ms. Marleau.

Ms. Diane Marleau: I'd just like to say that I think you're a great appointment to the board and I'm glad they've given you an extension or renewed your appointment. I think we've grilled you enough, and I'm going to ask that we put an end to these proceedings, Mr. Chair.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): I don't have any other speakers on the list.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Could I have one last question?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Go ahead.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Thank you.

• 1020

Grace, thank you for coming. I would just like to give you a wide-open opportunity to respond to the normal type of public concern of professionalism on a board membership versus what the public might see as inappropriate influences or under-the-table promises or whatever. Here is your chance to make a statement about your sense of commitment to the board and to serving the country, and to dispel any of the public concerns about inappropriate conflicts of interest.

Ms. Grace White: Mr. Chairman, EDC has one of the toughest conflict of interest guidelines that I have seen, both in the public and the private sector. EDC's board and staff members all sign their acceptance of this policy.

Ms. Diane Marleau: There's also a review once a year, right?

Ms. Grace White: There is a review once a year, and the signing of the policy has to be done on a yearly basis.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): I just want to remind colleagues that the committee has no power to revoke any appointment or nomination. I'll just read from the committee's rules, and with this I'll conclude:

[It] may only report that they have examined the appointee or nominee and give their judgement as to whether the candidate has the qualifications and competence to perform the duties of the post to which he or she has been appointed or nominated.

I think I'm expressing and reflecting the views of colleagues present when I say we appreciate not only you coming here and offering your testimony, but also the reflection and representation of the qualities and competence demonstrated therein, and reflected in the comments of the committee. So thank you for being with us.

Ms. Grace White: Thank you.

[Translation]

Ms. Maud Debien: I would like to finish by thanking Ms. White for taking part in this morning's proceedings. I also congratulate her for all the marvellous qualities she seems to have.

[English]

Ms. Grace White: Thank you.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Irwin Cotler): Thank you again.

We will suspend for five minutes and then we'll move into the in camera session.

[Proceedings continue in camera]