FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, April 4, 2000

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.)): Colleagues, I'd like to call this meeting to order, please. I'm glad to see this gavel has the usual effect on bringing order to the room.

Colleagues, this is a meeting of the committee to conduct an examination of the United Nations involvement in the rights of children in armed conflict. The Canadian government has been working with war-affected youth living in Canada to solicit their views on the needs of children living in situations of armed conflict in order to help the government determine the priorities of those war-affected children.

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We're very pleased to have with us today our Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Hon. Lloyd Axworthy; Hon. Maria Minna, Minister for International Cooperation; and His Excellency Olara Otunnu, who is the UN Special Representative of the Secretary General for Children in Armed Conflict. If you look at his biography, you'll see that he was the foreign minister of Uganda. I can assure you, having had lunch with His Excellency, that he's extraordinarily knowledgeable about Africa and the issues he's responsible for at the United Nations. We're very pleased to welcome you here, sir, before the committee.

I'm very pleased on behalf of the committee to recognize and welcome two representatives of War Child Canada, which seeks to draw attention to these issues. The minister will be speaking to that in his opening statement. We have with us Hannady Mobarek from Somalia. Thank you very much, Hannady, for joining us today. Also with us is Salah Mohamed, who has come from the Sudan and who can speak not only to the issues that are involved here, but also with the experience of personal involvement. So we're particularly pleased to have you appear before the committee today.

Minister, I'll stop there and introduce you, and perhaps you can get the meeting going.

Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me begin by thanking the members of the committee for permitting this special session that allows us to hear from such informed and important spokespersons on this issue.

I'd also like to say that I'm certainly more than happy to look at an alternate date on which we can consider the main estimates, which was the original topic for today. So we'll find an appropriate time.

I'd also like to express an early apology. Something has come up that I have to attend to, and I will have to leave at 4:30 p.m. But Mrs. Minna and our three guests will remain with you. It's one of those things that just happens in the life of a foreign minister, but I beg your indulgence for having to do that.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss Canada's engagement in dealing with war-affected children with my colleague, Mrs. Minna; our special guest, His Excellency Olara Otunnu, who's known worldwide and who has brought an incredible sense of perspective to this issue; and the two young people, who can, I think, bring their own personal experiences to bear.

As you said in your opening remarks, Mr. Chairman, the plight of war-affected children is one of the most haunting and devastating tragedies of our time. I think we've all seen the pictures, which cause horror and shock, of children with their limbs hacked off, profound fear and desperation on young faces, and the helplessness and darkness of life and war. I think we've all heard the statistics of the millions upon millions of children cut up and scarred by the emotional, physical, and psychological brutality of war and conflict. Children have lost their parents, their homes, their schools, and the ability to play. Others have served in fighting factions where they were soldiers, sexual slaves, or water carriers. They have witnessed inhuman acts against those they love, and they carry memories and nightmares with them for the rest of their lives. I think it's true to say that the impact of war is eternal in the life of a child.

I've spoken before to this committee about our efforts to adapt our foreign policy to put the security of people first. In advancing the security of people, children should come first. Canada has been active on many fronts, including adapting international law, helping victims, and mobilizing global action.

[Translation]

In January, thanks to the considerable efforts of Canada and other countries, we finally agreed on a protocol at the Children's Rights Convention. This document deals with the participation of children, particularly child soldiers, in armed conflicts.

The Minister of National Defence has tabled a bill requiring that Canadian soldiers be at least 18 years of age before being deployed in a theatre of war, thereby making Canada a leader in this sector.

[English]

Helping these young victims of war has also been a special focus of Canada's peace-building initiatives, from small projects involving art therapy to larger programs to help with the disarmament, demobilization, and reintegration of child soldiers in Sierra Leone.

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Canada also continues to believe the United Nations and its agencies have a vital role in protecting children affected by conflict. To that end our distinguished guest, Mr. Otunnu, has been a great ally. His role in raising awareness both at the UN and around the world has been crucial, and we are pleased to provide his office with the resources to do this important work.

Since Canada joined the UN Security Council last year, we have pressed for greater protection of all civilians, including children, and our efforts are bearing fruit. On the basis of the council's unprecedented decision to establish its mission in Sierra Leone, the secretary general announced last month that henceforth all UN peace-support missions will include child protection advisers. Canada will continue to provide leadership in this area.

The year ahead is full as Canada seeks to focus attention and action to better the lives of affected children around the world. Later this month I will co-host a conference on war-affected children in west Africa with my counterpart, Foreign Minister Victor Gbeho of Ghana. The conference aims to launch regional initiatives for child protection. West African governments, NGOs, youth, and donors will come together to draft a plan of action for change in one of the most acutely affected regions.

War-affected children will continue to be a target of our peace-building efforts, as well as the focus of the $10 million in new resources allocated in this year's budget for human security initiatives.

Canadian youth should also be involved in addressing the problems of their peers in other countries. That is why this September my department will host a series of national fora for youth on this subject. Youth across the country will join together in person and through cyberspace to give their views.

Following that, in mid-September Canada will host the first international conference on war-affected children, which will bring together many of these initiatives. That will be held in Winnipeg. We will also pick up where the global community left off in 1996 when Graça Machel first presented her groundbreaking study on the impact of armed conflict on children. In the same spirit as the landmines campaign, the conference will bring together like-minded governments, international organizations, and civil society in a common cause to forge a comprehensive, concrete global plan of action to help our children.

[Translation]

In this year's Speech from the Throne, the government made a pledge to improve the plight of children in the world, including children who are affected by war. We are now following through with this commitment.

[English]

Before hearing from our guest, allow me to ask my colleague, the Minister for International Cooperation, to expand further on the government's role. Maria.

Hon. Maria Minna (Minister for International Cooperation): Thank you, Lloyd.

First I want to welcome Mr. Otunnu and our guests to our meeting.

I'm going to say only a few words, because I'd rather hear our guest speak. I simply want to say that, as you know, CIDA has been extremely active in this area in the last little while. We were involved in Sierra Leone immediately after the conflict ended to try to assist both the child soldiers and the children. It's an area we continue to work in.

I am proud to be involved, along with Lloyd, in a conference in the fall. I won't be able to attend the one in Ghana because I will be attending two other conferences in Africa, one on education and one on rolling back malaria. But one of our colleagues will be attending that one, along with the minister, who will be leading the delegation.

CIDA has been very involved in the issue of children affected by war. I think one of the most horrible things we need to address is not only how we deal with the issues during or after a conflict, but also how we prevent conflict, especially interstate conflict, so that these kinds of things don't occur, and the kind of support that is needed.

I will be making some closing remarks after Mr. Otunnu has spoken, so I won't take up too much of your time at this point.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Minister.

Your Excellency, perhaps you could make a statement to the committee.

His Excellency Dr. Olara Otunnu (UN Special Representative of the Secretary General for Children in Armed Conflict): Mr. Chairman, it's a great honour to be with you this afternoon.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Minister, Madam Minister, distinguished members of the standing committee, I have come before you to pay tribute to Canada for the leadership role Canada has been playing in the struggle for the protection of war-affected children, from Kosovo to Sierra Leone, to Rwanda, to East Timor, to DRC, to the project on the optional protocol to fix a new standard for the recruitment and deployment of young persons in the military, to the Security Council, to various regional initiatives. I have come because I want to express, on behalf of the United Nations and all those who are working worldwide to protect children, our very deep appreciation for the incredibly important contribution that Canada has been making—not only the Government of Canada and this standing committee, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister Axworthy, the Minister of Development, Madame Minna, but the young people in Canada who are highly mobilized around this issue, and the NGOs.

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I've also come before you to ask for your support, how we can work together to deepen and enlarge those efforts.

Here we are at the turn of a new millennium, and yet we are witnessing unspeakable abominations being committed against children in the context of armed conflict. Perhaps no single category of children or persons are so completely vulnerable as children caught in the midst of armed conflict.

The abomination against children bears many faces: children being killed; children being made orphans; children being maimed; children being uprooted from their homes; children being raped and sexually abused; children being deprived of their education and health altogether; children who are being exploited as child soldiers; and a large number of children who are left with deep emotional scars and trauma.

All civilians and non-combatants are entitled to protection, but children have a primary claim to that protection. Why? Because children are especially innocent and vulnerable. Moreover, children represent the hopes and future of every society. So when you destroy them, as we've seen from one conflict situation to another, you destroy an entire society.

To give you a sense of the magnitude of this problem, over the last decade alone we estimate that over two million children have been killed in war situations, over one million have been left orphans, perhaps eight million have been seriously, in some permanent way, injured and disabled, and more than ten million have been left with great psychological trauma.

But as I appear before you this afternoon, not just in the course of the last decade, in approximately 50 countries around the world today, children are suffering from the effects of conflict and its aftermath. Today there are over 20 million children who have been displaced by war within and outside their countries. Some 300,000 young persons below the age of 18 are currently being exploited as child soldiers, and we estimate that approximately 800 children are being killed or maimed by landmines every month.

The magnitude of what I'm describing is staggering, and these excesses are no longer exceptional; they are widespread across the globe. It's against this background that today we estimate that something close to 90% of all casualties in ongoing conflicts are civilians, most of these casualties being children and women. Compare this with 5% in World War I and perhaps 45% in World War II. This is the world turned upside down.

The trend of abomination that I've just described can be reversed if serious concerted measures are employed at both the national and international level.

In my remarks today, I would like to highlight and share with you some initiatives we've been undertaking and my office has been spearheading as an advocate on behalf of children affected by conflict.

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The first is launching the era of application for international norms. I feel very strongly that the time has come for the international community to launch an era of application—the application of international norms and standards with regard to the protection of civilian populations, especially children and women.

Over the last 50 years, the nations of the world have developed a truly impressive body of international humanitarian and human rights instruments, but the impact of these instruments with regard to the protection of children and women remains very thin on the ground. We must therefore shift our energies consciously from the juridical project of the elaboration of norms to the political project of ensuring their application and respect on the ground.

The second initiative is the taking of concrete initiatives in the midst of war. We must take concrete initiatives to prevent or mitigate the suffering of children who are actually caught up in the midst of continuing conflict.

In my recent visits to a number of countries, from Sri Lanka to Burundi, Sudan to Colombia, Sierra Leone to the DRC, parties in conflict, both the state and insurgency groups, have committed themselves to taking certain measures to enlarge the protection for children: allow access to populations in distress; not interfere with the distribution of relief supplies; observe humanitarian ceasefires to allow for vaccination; not attack schools or hospitals; not use landmines; and not recruit children as child soldiers. But the international community must now hold steadfastly these commitments and these parties to what they have committed themselves to. That is why it is crucial that key actors—governments, the Security Council, regional organizations, civil society organizations—should all reinforce these commitments through their own channels of communication and influence, making the protection and rights of children a central concern in post-conflict programs.

I would say that apart from the imperative of the re-establishment of security and the consolidation of peace, perhaps the most daunting challenge any country faces after war is what many call the crisis of young people, the desperate conditions of young children and adolescents. The prospects for recovery in many of these countries therefore depend very much on the rehabilitation of these young people and on restoring to them a sense of renewed hope.

That is why the Government of Canada, my office, and other actors have been working so hard to call on key actors responsible for post-conflict rebuilding and healing to have programs that would place the rights and protection of children at the centre of their priorities, their resource allocation, and the designing of policies.

Another initiative is the integration of child protection into UN peace operations.

I have proposed that as a general policy the protection and rights of children should become a clear priority in all UN-mandated peace operations, wherever children have been gravely affected by conflict.

To achieve that, I have proposed the systematic incorporation of three elements: first, that the protection and rehabilitation of children must become explicitly mentioned in the mandates of peace operations; secondly, in order to promote the implementation of this dimension or peace mandate, child protection advocates, who are now given the name of child protection advisers, should always be attached to such operations; and thirdly, that appropriate training must be given on a more systematic basis to all peacekeeping personnel, both civilian and military, concerning the protection of the rights of children and women in particular.

Another initiative is the building of local capacities for protection and advocacy on behalf of children.

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It is crucial, in my view, that we build and strengthen local capacities for protection and advocacy for children affected by war. In this connection, I have advocated a number of initiatives in countries affected by conflict: the establishment of a national commission for children, as proposed in Sierra Leone; the formation of a group of elders and statesmen to serve us local ombudsmen, as in Liberia; and the formation of a parliamentary caucus, as in Sierra Leone.

Outreach to war-affected children: A major aspect of my advocacy work is to mobilize an international worldwide movement of social and political pressure for the protection of children. I believe that children and youth should be part of that movement as advocates, as participants, and that they be given opportunity for self-expression. This is the reason I have proposed and am promoting several projects:

- the Voice-of-Children Project, which is about the establishment of radio stations in war-affected countries to cater mainly to the interests of children.

- Children-to-Children Network, which is seeking to establish links between children who live in countries at peace, such as Canada, and children who are living in war-affected countries in direct, local ways—school to school, neighbourhood to neighbourhood. I'm very glad to see that young people in Canada are really mobilized and oriented in this direction.

- Local Heroes Project. Whenever I have visited countries affected by conflict, I have been so struck by what the world often calls “ordinary people” and what extraordinary things they're doing at the local and community level, and most of these are women and children. We must do more to highlight these examples and to recognize the role they are playing on the ground.

Working to end recruitment and use of children in conflict: As the minister stated earlier, one of the most horrendous practices of warfare today is the use of children as perpetrators of violence. After several years of negotiations, agreement has been reached by consensus on raising the minimum age for recruitment and participation of young persons in conflict. I am delighted that Canada has played a very active role in this, and that with this agreement in place, we can now turn our attention to making a difference on the ground and addressing the factors that facilitate the exploitation of children in this way.

The role Canada has played vis-à-vis placing this issue with the Security Council resulted last year in the adoption of Resolution 1261, devoted entirely to the protection of children affected by conflict. With this resolution in hand, I appeal to you for us to work together on two tasks. One is how to encourage the Security Council to apply the provisions of this resolution in specific cases. Canada is spearheading this effort within the Security Council. Second is how to use this resolution as a tool of advocacy in engaging parties in conflict all over the world.

May I say, Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, that I should like to stress three issues.

One is the impact of interdependence, which works in our favour. We may well ask how we can ensure that these claims for protection are taken seriously by parties in conflict. Well, we live in a world that is inextricably interdependent. The parties in conflict depend for the successful prosecution of their war effort on the goodwill of the wider community to provide arms; to buy, often illicitly, timber and minerals; to provide hard currency and good copy in their newspapers. We must use these levers to influence positively the parties in conflict.

The second issue is the danger of complacency. If I have one fear, I fear the danger that we in the international community may be exposed to so much that we come to regard as normal a phenomenon that is a radical repudiation of all norms acceptable to any of our societies. We must not let this happen. We must create a political and social climate that makes the abuse and brutalization of children entirely unacceptable.

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The role of my mandate, finally, is that of advocacy. It is that of convening, that of proposing ideas, that of working together with operational actors and government to realize some of these objectives. I believe with all my heart that we can achieve these objectives if we decide to work for it, if we invest in it, and if we work together.

Thank you very much, sir.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Your Excellency.

Ms. Mobarek.

Ms. Hannady Mobarek (Spokesperson, War Child Canada): My name is Hannady Mobarek. I'm from Somalia. I left Somalia when I was seven years old, with my grandma. I had to run away to Yemen, which was a very difficult situation for me and my grandma. I lost both my parents and my brothers.

When I went to Yemen, it was very difficult for me to start school or to do anything. I never had papers; I always had to hide. The neighbours always helped me with education and to go to school, because their father was a teacher in one of the public schools. It was very difficult for me because whenever I used to go to school, I used to be abused because of my skin colour. In North Yemen they were lighter than me. It was very hard for me to stay in that country.

I also faced the war in Yemen, which was between the south and the north. They don't treat females right in Yemen and they abuse you on the street...especially if they knew I was Somalian. Whenever I had to go to the market and walk...they used to just take children and put them on buses and take them to war, even if you are below 18 years old. Females were raped, even kids.

I stayed there until 1998 and then I came to Canada. I'm really glad I'm here. I'm really upset by what happened, and I'm sorry for everybody who faced the same thing as me. I thank Canada for helping me and everybody, all the war-affected children. I'm really happy that Canada is taking a step to help all the war-affected children...and as a peacekeeper country.

On February 14 there was a conference for youth about war-affected children. They took us and listened to our ideas and opinions, and it was really interesting. I hope that after all these conferences something will be done, that it's not just going to be talking or interviewing or videos or cameras but that actually a country will be able to help all of us.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Mobarek.

Mr. Mohamed.

Mr. Salah Mohamed (Spokesperson, War Child Canada): I am Salah Mohamed, Sudanese. My father was a political leader in the democratic government. The government has been changed and the regime ruined the country. They started abusing us because of my father's position and pushing us to go and leave the country. We went to Kuwait for five years and then Saudi Arabia for ten years.

My father had been killed in an accident. After that we discovered that it was not an accident, that everything was planned to kill him. The court wasn't helping anything. The embassy didn't even ask about us or make calls about anything. The Saudi government didn't allow us even to bring a lawyer. They judged the court without any witnesses or any evidence.

They cancelled our residence in Saudi Arabia so we had to go back to Sudan. We went back to Sudan and again there was abusing, arresting, jail. They took our lands and homes, everything, just because we were not on the same side as the government.

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We left again after we changed our names and we took the last name from the passports so we could get through the airport to Cairo. We stayed for two years in Cairo as refugees and we got protection there. But because it's near to Sudan, our country, it was still not enough protection.

At the end, we came to Canada. I'm glad that people here are supporting us more than anywhere in the world. Thanks.

The Chair: On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank you both very much for your personal testimony. I know it is very difficult to relive difficult moments in your lives.

I think members of the committee should know that the two of you are very active in War Child Canada, in trying to help raise awareness of the problem for us Canadians and also helping young children who are in the same position as you were some years ago. We all owe you a debt of gratitude, both for what you're doing in our country and for the contribution you're making to His Excellency's program in trying to make sure that at least other people are comforted and trying to see how we as Canadians can help.

Thank you very much for coming before the committee and sharing your views.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear!

The Chair: Colleagues, the minister has to leave in 25 minutes. I suggest we have seven-minute periods, because I have quite a few on the list. After the minister actually leaves, we will still have Minister Minna here and we'll have another half hour. For any questions that were particularly to be addressed to the foreign minister, maybe you could catch him before he goes. When he goes, we'll catch somebody else. Ask your questions to whoever you like, but I'll hold you to seven minutes because of the time.

Mr. Obhrai.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome His Excellency, and I would like to say to him in Swahili, jambo, as I know he is from Uganda. I also liked the moving testimony from the two guests here, and I'm glad you found peace and security in Canada.

It's obvious, after listening to your testimony, that protection of children in war has been left alone for too long. I don't think much was done and now it's been highlighted, especially after it became quite clear that young children were being used in war.

I would like to say that your appointment by the United Nations, Your Excellency, is excellent and you have come up with some excellent ideas. Ideas are ideas, Your Excellency. Implementation is quite important, and I'm sure that with Canada's help that implementation will be done.

At the end of the day, those who are engaged in armed conflict do not regard the rule of law as important. If they were dead, they would not have been in armed conflict. The rule of law is flouted by those who are engaged in conflict and who are using children. They have been using children, so first and most importantly they have already broken the most important rule that society places on children. Therefore, with these conflicts you are going into an area where nobody respects the rule of law.

I am wondering if something from your organization can be put forward that is stronger. I would probably refer to the War Crimes Tribunal. As we know, following the Bosnian war, rape was included as a war crime. How would that be viewed by your organization so that it is made quite clear to those engaged in conflict that the international committee would not accept this abuse of children?

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My second question would be on the rights of children, if that is defined per se. I would appreciate your comments.

Dr. Olara Otunnu: I'm entirely in agreement with you that parties in conflict are not necessarily swayed by the rule of law and norms but they're increasingly very much affected by the community of values that has been built internationally by public opinion. I have not been to one theatre of conflict where a party in conflict, whether the state or a rebellion, has simply dismissed the concerns of the international community with regard to observing norms. This is not because they believe in those norms but because they feel the pressure of international public opinion. We must make use of that.

The second point I'd like to make is that we begin by raising awareness and we move from awareness to perhaps having an agreed standard, for example, on the recruitment of young persons into the armed forces. We cannot stop by agreeing on a standard. We cannot stop by having an elaborate convention.

We must move from there to a political project, which is how to mobilize political social pressure internationally to lean on those who are flouting the agreed standards. That is what they will feel because they are political actors above all. They feel political pressure, and that means, obviously, the Security Council of the United Nations. It means key governments. The Government of Canada has been very active in this regard.

You know of the report that has just recently come out concerning Angola. It's a very good example of turning the political heat on a party in conflict. The European Union, the OSCE in Europe, the various actors, have been brought together to play their role and make this a political social movement for the protection of children.

Mr. Lloyd Axworthy: Mr. Chairman, I'll make a short response because the issue of the International Criminal Court has been raised. As you know, Canada chaired the meeting in Rome that brought the convention forward. So through the very skilful work of a number of our diplomats and NGOs we were able to include a clear provision for the protection of innocents, including children, and to hold people accountable for it.

To me it does represent for this millennium, this new century, one of the first new international institutions that holds individuals accountable for their actions. By holding people accountable, it may also act as a deterrent because they know they will not be able to use the excuse of impunity, that they can't be touched. At some point they will be brought to justice for their crimes.

As you know, we have Bill C-19 that's received first reading, and I hope it will very soon receive second reading in the House so that we can get on to committee hearings of it. I hope your own party will be supportive of that, because it is an area that deals directly with this issue of the protection of children in terms of establishing not only the standard but also a mechanism, a way, a means, of holding people accountable when they persecute children.

The Chair: Madam Picard.

[Translation]

Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): I would like to welcome you, Mr. Otunnu. We are very honoured to have you here at this committee. I would also like to welcome Mr. Axworthy, Ms. Minna and the two representatives. Your testimony as victims of this type of war is very moving.

In November 1996, Ms. Machel painted a rather troubling picture of the abominations inflicted on child victims in regions where these conflicts were raging. Mr. Otunnu, you were, at that time, convinced that the biggest and most pressing challenge was to transform standards and commitments into actions that would have a tangible impact on the plight of the children.

Have you, over the course of your many interventions since 1996, seen this will to implement concrete measures materialize on the international scene? Do you feel the presence of this will on the ground right now?

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[English]

Dr. Olara Otunnu: Since the Machel report came out containing horrific descriptions, there have been a number of efforts and initiatives by governments, by UN agencies, by my office, by NGOs. Yes, some progress has been made; yes, some concrete things have been done on the ground.

The one example that has just been given by the minister is the idea of an international court that will hold individuals criminally responsible. It's revolutionary. It's a major development, even in relation to only five or ten years ago in terms of international jurisprudence. Within that is included the protection of children and women, including the issue of recruiting and using them in combat.

Secondly, one can give the example of the optional protocol. For six years there was a very acrimonious, polarized discussion. And we didn't believe for a long time we could reach a consensus. Through the efforts of a number of committed actors, and Canada played a very important role, it was possible to reach a consensus last January in Geneva.

The Security Council, the hub of the peace and security system of the UN, has always been involved with peace and security, but generally it has been high politics and the military aspects of security. More recently, partly because of the awareness raised by Madam Machel and the leadership provided by a number of countries, with Canada very much at the forefront, this issue has now been brought into the Security Council as a regular important item, resulting last year in the resolution I cited earlier.

On the visits I've been paying to various countries, some parties have made actual commitments, which are made voluntarily. This is new. The challenge that now remains obvious is for us to mobilize ourselves to better monitor this commitment and to press the parties to observe the commitments they have made.

They have been observing some commitments on an ad hoc basis. For example, the Colombian government said they would release everybody below 18 in the military, and by the end of last year they actually did so.

On the parties in conflict in the Congo, the DRC had said yes they would stop fighting for a certain period of time in order to allow for polio inoculations for children, and they did stop fighting. UNICEF and the WHO were in fact able to inoculate in the Congo. So there are examples here and there that one can cite.

In the Commonwealth, for the first time Canada played a very important role in Durban, and they pronounced on this issue. OSCE in Istanbul pronounced on this issue. The European Union adopted a very important issue within its advocacy work and its program of action on the ground. We need to do a good deal more, but there are some encouraging signs.

Mr. Lloyd Axworthy: Perhaps I could just add a footnote to Madam Picard's question.

One of the reasons why we are working with Ghana and ECOWAS, the group of west African nations, to hold this meeting is again not just to fulfil declarations but to come up with a concrete plan of action, a moratorium on the use of children, a moratorium on the sale and transfer of small weapons, which affects children.

I can't predict the outcome of the conference or the meeting, but it's our hope that if we can get the fifteen west African states to agree on it, a specific regional system would be put into place. Then, of course, we'll have to back it up with the kind of support it needs.

There's an example that will demonstrate to the rest of the world that you can, as Mr. Otunnu said, actually make a difference.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Assadourian.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): I too welcome the distinguished guests as witnesses. I would especially like to welcome Ms. Mobarek and Mr. Mohamed. I think this is your day. This is your issue. We are just here to help you out with your issues.

First of all, I would like you to have a couple of minutes to explain to us about your organization, because this is being broadcast. Perhaps you could talk directly to young people so they can follow in the footsteps you have taken.

Secondly, can you relate other instances of young people in the Sudan or in Somalia who have gone through as difficult a period as you have gone through? They haven't been here, but I'm sure there's suffering there.

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The most important question to me, as related by the minister, is Bill C-19. How would you see Bill C-19 affecting the future of children in Sudan and in Somalia? Is there any chance or any hope that Bill C-19 will do the job? If it can't do the job, how can we improve on Bill C-19 to do the job we hope it to do?

The Chair: I take it that question is not directed to Mr. Mohamed and Ms. Mobarek.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Yes.

The Chair: Perhaps you'd better tell them what Bill C-19 is. I know they are very knowledgeable, but they may not have seen it.

Ms. Maria Minna: Mr. Chairman, since one part of the question was to allow our guests to talk to their program and what they do for young Canadians, that might be the first part of their answer. Perhaps at some point after that you might want to get into the actual specifics of Bill C-19.

The Chair: As Mr. Assadourian has said, I certainly think everybody, including the Canadian public, would like to hear something about the program.

So perhaps you could describe for us the War Child Canada program that you're involved in and how it's helping children elsewhere.

Who would like to go first?

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: We're trying to educate Canadian children or youth about war, about what happens inside and outside the war.

As Canadians, I want them to welcome the war-affected children if they come to Canada. It's really important to welcome them to a new home and to know about what is going on in the war and what happens and everything about it.

The Chair: I understand you have some radio contacts with children in war-torn areas.

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: No. We just started on February 14 to speak to different kids from different schools. We're working in our school. We haven't done it yet through radio or television or anything like that.

The Chair: Do you think that will be a helpful program? I know MuchMusic is trying to help put you in contact. Do you think it would have been helpful when you were growing up there if you had been able to speak to somebody in Canada? Do you think it would have been helpful for encouraging human understanding?

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: Definitely. If anybody wants to ask us any questions, such as what days do you want help...or any articles, anything like that, that would also be good.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Mr. Chairman, the minister right next to you should be able to help you. I hope you put in an application for a grant from her.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Chair: Perhaps I could frame the second question a little more generally for you. When you lived through this terrible situation when you were young, if the people who were perpetrating these crimes that you were suffering could have been brought to justice and prosecuted by a truly international body, a court, not their national authorities, do you think it would have helped you to have that knowledge? Do you think it would have helped the situation?

That's the answer Mr. Assadourian is trying to get from somebody who has actually been there. Do you feel that if there had been some sense that there could be help from the international community by way of a court that would hold them accountable that this would have made it easier or better for you?

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: If the United States or Canada had an agreement for all those countries in Africa in case there's a war, to force them not to let the kids below 18 join the army, not to let them trap them, that would be better, because now they're not afraid of any other country. If, for example, Somalia wants to be a peacekeeper country, they should sign agreements and follow the rules, and they shouldn't go against what is written in those agreements.

The Chair: That's a hope we all have. Nations living up to the agreements they sign is perhaps something we're all working on.

Perhaps you'd like to complete that, Minister.

Mr. Lloyd Axworthy: I would like to complete the thoughts that Ms. Mobarek spoke to. As you know, Minister Eggleton has introduced a bill into the Senate and it will eventually end up in the Commons. It would confirm Canada's commitment that people under the age of 18 will not be deployed in a conflict. Mr. Otunnu has said that is now part of an international consensus including the United States.

It was a big breakthrough to have the major military country sign on to this. That's now given us a platform to go on and start developing specific initiatives. For example, in the West Africa meetings, part of the plan of action would be to have the 15 west African countries now sign on to a similar commitment not to use children under 18 in conflict.

• 1625

Those are the building blocks we're using. And that's why, in a sense, the international institutions are important, because they trigger or become a catalyst for very specific actions at the regional or country levels.

The Chair: Minister Minna, you wanted to say something.

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes, I wanted to say two things.

First, we must remember, while we're talking about taking children and forcing them to become soldiers, that females and males experience wars differently. Male children may be taken and are taken as soldiers, but often girls are not necessarily taken in as soldiers but as sex slaves or cooks, and abused. It's an altogether different experience for the girls.

It's important to keep in mind that when we're talking about war-affected children, we're not talking just about child soldiers; we are talking about the other stuff that nobody likes to talk about sometimes because it's very violent, ugly, and so on. We have to remember that, and that both have to be included in this equation.

My second point is that our guest, Ms. Mobarek, would like to ask a question of us. I thought it was quite appropriate, since she's....

The Chair: Very well.

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: Peacekeeper countries are not supposed to bomb other countries in Africa. This happened in Sudan. I don't know if it was the United States or Canada, but I believe it was the United States. They bombed this place where the Sudanese were making medicines for poor people. After they bombed it, they didn't do anything about it. They just said it was a mistake.

I believe that the United States has a very vast technology and they should have been able to know whether this place was actually for bombs or making guns. That place was for medicines. And after they bombed it, they didn't even fix their mistake. I believe, as peacekeeper countries, if they make a mistake in the future, whether it's bombing or anything like that, they should fix it.

Ms. Maria Minna: Thank you.

The Chair: This was the bombing in Sudan that took place after the raids alleged by—

Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): [Inaudible—Editor]...factory alleged to be making poison gas.

The Chair: May I have the privilege of—

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: She's talking about the bombing of the educational school.

The Chair: No, no. They're talking about when the United States bombed Sudan in retaliation for the blowing up of the embassy in East Africa.

Ms. Maria Minna: That's right.

The Chair: Could I treat that as a statement rather than a question? If you ask a question of this group, you have 15 politicians here and they'll all talk forever.

Ms. Maria Minna: I think it was a statement, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: It was a very good statement.

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: Canada is one of the peacekeeper countries, so I was wondering if there's a special rule that they don't fix what they just did. I just wanted to know.

The Chair: I think you're quite right. I won't speak for the minister, but our committee will shortly be looking at this issue of an international criminal court. We would hope that an international criminal court, if formed, will hold everybody—whether it's the United States, the Soviet Union, Canada, or any country—liable for acts that are contrary to international law and that engage criminal responsibility. I would think that bombing an unarmed, innocent, civilian place brings you very close to being within the ambit of that court.

It may well be that is the reason certain countries don't want to see that court come to pass. They're very nervous that their actions will be condemned by it. But I think—

Mr. Ted McWhinney: They're not apologizing. They're not offering compensation.

The Chair: No. But that is why we'll definitely...sorry you wanted to follow that with another....

Ms. Hannady Mobarek: Yes.

There are many oil companies in Sudan. When they built their companies in Sudan, they helped the Sudanese government in an indirect way to get the money to get guns and start the war. So for a country that's involved with peacekeeping and so on, I don't think that's right. That's my opinion, and I would like to know your answer to that. If you know that this country is using their money for guns, why do you help them build an oil company in their country?

The Chair: Perhaps I could turn that to the minister, as he's had to deal with this issue on a regular basis recently.

Mr. Lloyd Axworthy: I'm happy to answer that, because I think it's the right question. It's a tough question. And most important is how do you respond?

• 1630

There's no doubt that the conflict that continues in Sudan between the various parties is wreaking enormous havoc on people, and there is substantial abuse going on, not just on children but on the civilian population generally. The war has been going on for 40 years. The concern we have is how to end the war. Until you end the conflict, you won't be able to end the abuse. All the efforts to try to provide a humanitarian response, which is what CIDA does by providing food and medicine, will continue until the conflict itself is resolved.

When we looked at and investigated the activity of one Canadian company, Talisman, which was involved in a consortium, we felt the most important response at the outset was to see if we could engage in that peace process, to try to put as much effort as we could to identify what abuses were taking place and make them public; to try to engage the international community through the IGAD peace process, through the UN; to have a stronger Canadian presence there so we could make our presence, our representations, known; and to require of the Canadian company a new code or standard of behaviour that would limit its involvement and make sure it didn't contribute to the conflict or the abuses. Those initiatives are now underway, and clearly, they're being reviewed on a daily basis to make sure they work.

That was the conclusion of the investigations by both envoys I sent—Senator Wilson and Mr. Harker—that without question there was a serious situation affecting civilians. They both recommended that the most effective strategy for Canada at the time was to be actively engaged in trying to change the conditions and circumstances, which is what we'll try to do.

It doesn't mean to say that we don't stand up and publicly denounce when there are excessive bombings. And I certainly believe, as you do, that we should determine very carefully whether the coming to play of the new oil revenues is contributing to the war or not.

We've asked the IMF, which is a major financial backer of Sudan, to determine whether this money is a fungible fund or not. We're attempting to get the IMF to respond to that. We are also looking at setting up our monitoring system in the region to make those kinds of conclusions and then bring them into international fora.

I would say, just in conclusion, that it's not easy. There are a lot of interests, forces, and countries that do not want the issue of Sudan to be brought to international attention. They are attempting to try to provide a certain resistance to any active, open discussion, and as members of this committee know, in this country we can't impose sanctions until we have an international agreement.

Under our Special Economic Measures Act it has to be triggered by an international judgment or decision taken by law, which we don't have. One reason is that there have been very careful efforts to keep Sudan off the agenda, and I can tell you that it's not easy to bring it on.

Nevertheless, I can tell Ms. Mobarek that we are very concerned, preoccupied, and we will use every effort and ounce of energy we have both to try to resolve the conflict and to try to ensure better protection for the people there.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Minister. I notice it's now 4:30 p.m., so thank you very much for coming.

Mr. Lloyd Axworthy: That's my swan song, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Until we sing again, as they say, I'm sure we'll see you again shortly. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. Grewal.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance): Thank you Mr. Chairman.

I also join my colleagues around the table in welcoming and thanking our guests and witnesses before the committee, His Excellency Dr. Otunnu, Ms. Mobarek, Mr. Mohamed, and of course our own ministers.

This issue of the rights of children in armed conflict is very important because it is a root cause of many other problems—for example, poverty, illiteracy, malnutrition, disease, unemployment, the GDP crisis, and import-export business. It has a domino effect.

• 1635

In Canada, many of us, in my observation, are not very familiar with the situation of armed conflict in Africa, simply because we are just acquainted with the situation by way of television and TV documentaries.

I lived in Liberia, which is in west Africa, for eight years. I was a university professor teaching business management in Liberia, so I had close contact with the youth in the country. It was one of the best universities in the country, and students were there from all the other west African countries. I have two sons who were born there, who are now 17 years old and 14 years old.

Being in business, I had the opportunity to visit all the west African countries. I have been to almost all 16 ECOWAS countries. I left Liberia in the middle of the civil war, because all the foreigners were evacuated from that country.

That was the time when the international community could have played some role, but I was a firsthand witness that all the international agencies, except very few, abandoned that country. When the country was in need, there was no friend indeed. Even the U.S. embassy was closed down temporarily.

The country was born when slaves in transit had no place to go; when Abraham Lincoln, in 1847, abolished slavery in the world. So those slaves in transit were given a country called land of liberty. That's how the country of Liberia came into existence. The currency of the country was U.S. dollars because America considered it to be a colony. Even the U.S. abandoned that country in the midst of the civil war.

I have seen kids between 8 and 10 years old with AK-47 guns. They were barefoot and wore no clothes. They were barely making ends meet in the family and very rarely had meals two times a day. But they had AK-47s and other lethal weapons. They were killing people and even chopping off hands.

I visited Sierra Leone many times, and I can give testimony that when I saw the documentary the other day on CBC in the evening, it was horrible. Many people could not even witness that documentary. My assistant in the office switched off the TV because he couldn't watch it any more.

Having said that, I believe Canada can play a significant role. I have three questions for the minister, and it's unfortunate that the foreign minister has left for an important meeting.

First, the minister talked about sanctions. I don't go as far as sanctions—I limit my questions before that. Is the Minister of International Cooperation examining the role of Canada in terms of our foreign aid, linking it to those countries where the rights of children are not protected? How is she going to utilize our foreign aid as leverage, to prevent armed conflicts where youth and children 8, 10, and 14 years old are involved?

Second, in poverty-ridden countries, how in the world can guns infiltrate and proliferate? What is the international community doing? Rather than sending them food and medicines and educational tools...how are guns getting into those countries? They are not being manufactured there. What is Canada doing to limit guns and other lethal weapons going into those countries?

Third, the root cause of the conflicts in West African states, and particularly in other countries of Africa, is tribal conflicts. People are segregated; they are not integrated. Prevention is better than cure. Preventing the armed conflicts, integrating the communities, and educating them are the keys to success. What is the minister doing, or what is she planning to do? How can she fit Canada's role and the international community's role into preventing those conflicts so that people are integrated and live in peace rather than in conflict and insurrection within countries?

The Chair: Minister, by all means answer the questions, but I still have three other people who want to ask questions. Mr. Grewal took six of the seven minutes to ask his questions.

Ms. Maria Minna: I'll try to be very quick.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: But it was compassion, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: I appreciate your concerns. I'm just trying to make sure everybody gets a crack.

• 1640

Ms. Maria Minna: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I'll be quick as I can with respect to the answers.

First, on using foreign aid as leverage, CIDA has many programs around the world where we do a great deal of what we call conflict resolution, prior to conflict breaking out in many cases, and we have programs. Probably the eradication program in itself will help to prevent conflict. Quite frankly, poverty leads to conflict quite often, and you need to have both. So those are two examples. We have many others in different parts of the world, where we have conflict resolution programs on the ground; two are at non-governmental organizations in different areas.

In Sierra Leone, while the conflict has ended, it's not necessarily a guarantee that it's over. We were the first country in to deal with demilitarization of the young people and soldiers and provide psychosocial assistance, conflict resolution, and all the supports that are needed to prevent war.

With respect to the poor countries that are buying arms and the leverage we use, I always ask a country to show me, when I provide aid, how much money is in their budget—how much money they're spending on arms and how much money they're spending on social programs, education, and assisting other countries. These are countries where we have bilateral programs and agreements. These are countries that are not in conflict, obviously.

In countries already in conflict, such as Sudan or Angola, the issue is one of trying to resolve the conflict. There, we actually work with civil society. We assist to encourage the NGOs on the ground—that is, the national NGOs of the country itself. We had a round table here of Angolan NGOs that are involved in trying to force their own people, who are in conflict, to resolve. So we actually work with the people on the ground, in addition to providing aid.

That also applies to tribal conflicts and prevention. We work with people to try to resolve conflict and at the same time try to assist with development, because the sooner education and development take place, the quicker, to some degree, some of the conflicts are prevented.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Could I have a rebuttal?

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.)): I don't think so.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: May I have ten seconds, Madam Chair?

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): You may have ten seconds just for a comment, not—

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Just for a rebuttal. Can foreign aid be prevented from going to those countries where the human rights records are so bad, particularly with respect to the rights of children?

Ms. Maria Minna: The problem I have with that, I'll be honest with you, is I would be punishing the children because of the actions of the government or the people therein. We're talking about situations in conflict here. I really have difficulty punishing the children, women, and civilians by not providing aid to those people who are already suffering in a conflict situation, in order to force the conflict.

If the people who are in a war situation cared about those people in the first place, they wouldn't be having a war. I don't really want to take the civilian population hostage in order to deal with this.

My situation is quite different from the diplomatic side. I have to deal with some of the realities of survival on the ground, quite often.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Patry.

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): It's okay if you want to answer.

Ms. Maria Minna: I apologize. I think our guest, who has been very quiet, has a question, if the chair could please indulge her.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Okay.

Ms. Salah Mohamed: For the Minister of International Cooperation and the United Nations, what is the meaning of having this long blacklist of countries who use their children as soldiers when we don't see any punishment? Instead of punishment, we see international trade with that regime. What is the meaning of the blacklist?

Ms. Maria Minna: I agree with you entirely. This is part of what we want to do with the international crime court. We want to punish the people who are involved in abusing children and take them to court internationally and really be able to convict them for their crimes, in their areas.

• 1645

From my side, as minister responsible for aid, I have two choices when I'm dealing with a country like Angola, where there has been a war going on. I can ignore it, punish it, and say that because it's not stopping the conflict and is still buying the arms, I will stop providing the support.

The support I give does not go to the government. I goes very directly to the people who are suffering: to the children, to the parents, to the girls in the refugee camps, internally as far in as we can reach. I never give money to the government.

Mr. Salah Mohamed: What about the international trade that occurs sometimes with those on that blacklist?

Ms. Maria Minna: I don't know that anyone trades with Angola, Sudan, Burundi, or Eritrea at this point. I don't believe we have any trade arrangements with any of those countries.

Mr. Salah Mohamed: Not even in oil?

The Chair: In Sudan, you're thinking of the Talisman investment in oil.

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes, that's right. It's two-thirds Canadian.

The Chair: That's what the position—

Ms. Maria Minna: It's a Canadian company, which is what the Minister of Foreign Affairs was trying to address, that's true.

The Chair: We have fifteen minutes left, and I have three people still on the list. I'll go to Mr. Otunnu, because he wanted to add something to that and is our guest. I'd then like to go to Monsieur Patry, Monsieur Rocheleau, and Madame Augustine.

Dr. Olara Otunnu: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I'd just add a couple of very quick points on the question about prevention and what can be done more preventively to stop things from sliding into the disasters we've been seeing.

There are four factors that I would especially want to underscore, in addition to what we've heard. One is the pattern of the distribution of developmental sources within countries. When that pattern becomes so skewed, so fundamentally unbalanced, it tends to lead to conflict.

Secondly, there is the way in which political leaders in some countries will tend to manipulate natural diversities within their societies. Instead of issues like this for building a sense of cohesion and common belonging, they use them to divide for purposes of gaining or retaining power. That situation needs to be addressed: how to achieve national unity, within diversity, if you like, like what you are building here in Canada.

Thirdly, when there is a protracted denial of genuine democratic practice—this pattern that we have seen over and over again—sooner or later something snaps and it leads to conflict.

The fourth item I would mention has to do with corruption. Corruption has taken on a life of its own and has become the bane of many political lives and the political elite in many countries. I would suggest that, as a preventive strategy, it is very important for the international community to find explicit, aggressive ways to address some of these issues within countries.

The final item that I would mention is the role of traditional norms, which we have not mentioned so far. Clearly, the most important norms to apply are the international norms, because they are universally accepted. But within many of these societies, what is happening today cannot be recognized by the elders within those societies. It's a reversal. It's the world upside down even in terms of the traditions of protection that they extended to children and women, including in times of war. I think there is a need as well to work with teachers, to work with elders, to work with church groups, to try to reinvigorate and reinforce those traditional values that are oriented toward protection and toward the respect for the rights of children and women.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Dr. Patry.

[Translation]

Mr. Bernard Patry: Thank you very much.

[English]

I have two questions for you, Mr. Otunnu.

It seems, Mr. Otunnu, that there is a direct correlation between the uncontrolled accumulation and spread of small arms and the percentage of war-affected children. In 1998, the Security Council adopted Resolution 1209 to restrict arms transfers. I noted that according to the agenda of the United Nations there will be a conference in June and July of 2001 concerning the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in all its aspects. Are you directly involved with this? What are we doing right now to assure that this conference will be successful?

My second question, always in the same regard, is about your opinion regarding the efficacy of the Mali moratorium signed in Bamako two years ago. Or is it too soon to reach any conclusions?

• 1650

Dr. Olara Otunnu: Thank you very much, sir.

On the first set of questions on small arms, it is clear that there is a correlation between the easy availability of small arms and light weapons and the dramatic rise in the victimization of civilians, especially children and women. That is very clear, so it is a matter of tremendous concern for us.

Secondly, it is also true that there is a correlation between the easy availability of arms and the rise in the use of children as child soldiers. Typically these weapons do not require much technical or even physical prowess to be used, so it's easy to hand them to children and have those children use them recklessly. That is part of the reason why some of the worst atrocities we've seen in situations of conflict are committed by children who are sent to do this. Often they are also drugged, the better to use these weapons without any regard to the consequence of what they're doing. So, yes, my office is deeply concerned about and very much involved in the ongoing discussions about the conference that is coming up in 2001.

With regard to your second question about the moratorium in Mali, which is a moratorium with regard to the issue of arms within a number of countries there, it was a particularly good example, and an example that we are seeking to expand elsewhere. There are projects that we are calling neighbourhood initiatives, which is to say that there are cross-border activities that affect children negatively in situations of war. The flow of arms is one. The abduction and use of children as child soldiers across borders is another. Of course, the displacement and fleeing from homes and the issue of reunification is another. Use of land mines in the border area is another, as is the use of women for prostitution, thus exploiting them from war situations. All of these are issues that we are seeking to tackle on a sub-regional basis, and the Mali moratorium is a very good example of this.

Finally, with the conference that the minister is organizing in Akra, in part we hope to press the parties who signed the moratorium to observe and respect the moratorium in practice and perhaps to expand the moratorium to include other issues that were not part of the arrangement earlier on.

Mr. Bernard Patry: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Monsieur Rocheleau.

[Translation]

Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): I have a question for Mr. Otunnu. We have in our possession documents from the Canadian Department of National Defence and the Canadian Senate which pertain to the defence of children's rights in armed conflicts. These documents refer to an optional protocol contained in the Children's Rights Convention. I would like to know whether this is a Canadian concept or a UN concept. This optional protocol discusses the problem of war-affected children, particularly child soldiers.

If this is UN vocabulary, is this not an attempt to assuage the conscience of countries because it is understood that a country is free to sign the optional protocol? Are we not assuaging the conscience of countries that refuse to sign? Are we not opening a door? If this is the case, have we provided any sanctions, any international pressure or black list similar to the one referred to earlier, as was the case in the private sector regarding companies that employ child labour under terrible conditions that are better understood today? At least, we know who these countries are today. Is there a price to pay? When we use the word "optional", I understand this to mean that a country is free to choose whether or not to sign the protocol.

[English]

Dr. Olara Otunnu: Thank you very much, sir.

Yes, indeed, it is a term that is a universal term now used everywhere. The project on an optional protocol is in addition to the mother instrument, the Convention on the Rights of the Child. At the moment, it has fixed the age for participation and recruitment at 15. The effort was to improve that, to raise that, to make it higher. The project came to a conclusion in January—at least, the drafting part of the project did—when it was agreed on a new standard of 18 for deployment and 18 for compulsory recruitment. There is a minimum of 16 for voluntary recruitment and 18 for all insurgency groups, both for recruitment and participation. So we have a new standard.

• 1655

Secondly, you are right that this is called an optional protocol and therefore gives the impression of being entirely voluntary, which is true up to a point. But when in fact countries sign and ratify, the status will be the same as their obligation vis-à-vis the convention. Even for this, what is called optional protocol, once you sign and you ratify there are the same obligations.

That leads us to the next point, which is, both for the convention and the optional protocol, or any international instrument for that matter, how do we ensure observance? How do we go from the letter to practice and the spirit? That brings us back to the issue of making these instruments a political project. It means creating international opinion and pressure and a movement that frowns on those who disregard what they have signed and ratified, and shaming is the political price to be paid. That country in practice will be careful to observe because some consequence will follow if they don't.

This is not a strictly juridical project. This is not a legal project; it is in the political and social domain. We must operate at both levels, the legal level, but also the political and social level.

Finally you asked about other actors, non-state actors, and the business community. Non-state actors today have become very important political actors internationally. That is why Mr. Jonas Savimbi is very upset about the report concerning sanctions busting by UNITA. It's because he also depends on the international community. It is true with the business community as well, so I think we should address ourselves to the business community to assume their social and moral responsibility. We must also address ourselves to non-state actors, like insurgency groups, because they too are sensitive to political public opinion. We must treat them all as political actors who can be influenced by the international community.

Mr. Yves Rocheleau: Merci, Monsieur Otunnu.

The Chair: Ms. Augustine.

Ms. Jean Augustine: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: This is the last witness, because we'll have to go after 5 p.m.

Ms. Jean Augustine: I want to begin by welcoming you and saying how pleased we are to have had the opportunity to hear from you. Your paper was one that I think deserves a second reading; I know I will go through your paper thoroughly. I want to congratulate you and encourage you in the work on which you are embarking.

I wanted also to say to the two young people before us that we not only admire your courage, but we also admire the fact that you could be called resilient and that you are an example to so many young people. Keep on doing the work. To all those volunteers and others who stand before you, continue to bring the issue to the general Canadian public and to the young people in Canada. I also want to say congratulations and ask you to continue to do that work, because it is important.

I want to ask you, Excellency Otunnu, if you can speak a little bit more about the child protection advisers. What is their jurisdiction, how are they mobilized, and what generally is the specific protection or advice they give? Who do they give that advice to, and how is that advice eventually going to be used?

Dr. Olara Otunnu: Thank you very much. The child protection advisers is a new institution; it's a new practice that we have proposed as a part of the effort to integrate child protection more firmly into the peace and security agenda of the United Nations. They will be drawn as individuals from agencies that have the kind of expertise and experience in child protection.... So it will be from UNICEF, it will be the High Commission for Refugees, it will be bilateral agencies like CIDA, which has been working in this area, and Save The Children.

They then are seconded. They become part of the peace operation mechanism, so they answer to the department of the peacekeeping operation within the UN. They become the staff of the peacekeeping operation. But they are stationed in the central structure of a peacekeeping operation in the field, not sectorally placed, but centrally, to make sure the issue of child protection becomes a central, political issue, part of the mainstream issue of the mandate of that operation. So their role is to advise the head of the operation and to make sure they pay attention to the protection of children, to coordinate with all the other actors—with UNICEF, with other UN agencies, with NGOs working in this area—and make their concerns known to the head of the mission. They are to ensure that when resource allocation is taking place, when policy is being made, when priorities are being set, that the protection of children will be very much a central part of this, that it will not be forgotten.

• 1700

So, if you like, it is their responsibility to make sure that this is a cross-cutting issue throughout the peace operation, that it is a political priority, and to report to the department of the peacekeeping operation and through that to the rest of us who are interested in this issue. That will also ensure that the Security Council will be getting more regular information and more reliable information about what is happening with children in particular situations where there are peace operations.

We've just now had a child protection adviser go to Sierra Leone; two are on their way to the Democratic Republic of Congo; five are earmarked to go to the Democratic Republic of Congo; and we are discussing Kosovo and East Timor in that context.

Ms. Jean Augustine: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Otunnu.

Minister Minna, I think you had a few concluding remarks you'd like to make, and then we can conclude this hearing. Thank you.

Ms. Maria Minna: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I would like to thank you for having us here today. And I would like to thank Mr. Otunnu for his informative presentation. We are grateful for your sharing with us the knowledge you've gained through your travels in war-torn areas. I think that's very important.

It is crucial to make the situation of war-affected children known to both the public and their elected representatives, Mr. Chairman. This will help mobilize the support needed for us to continue working on behalf of children living in armed conflict situations.

Also, I would like to thank Ms. Mobarek and Mr. Mohamed, who were here with us, because it is important to hear their perspective. At CIDA we believe children and young people have an active role to play in finding solutions to situations that affect them directly, and since war and reconstruction efforts affect them differently than they do adults, it is crucial for us to plan our work according to the information only you can provide for us. So we thank you for coming today.

Children have a special place in development cooperation programs. We recognize that they have rights under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and we recognize that specific initiatives are needed to ensure these rights are respected.

[Translation]

The international co-operation program can play an important role to ensure that children's rights are respected. Many CIDA programs are directly tied to the respect of these basic rights.

[English]

Children are not just victims, Mr. Chairman. It is crucial that we work with all the members of the international community so that children can be spared the horrors of war and therefore become a positive and powerful force for change in their own communities as messengers of peace. In fact, CIDA is supporting initiatives that work with children as peace builders. CIDA values the work of Mr. Otunnu and his office and we are pro to financially supporting his office through CIDA's peace-building fund, again as a way to continue the peace-building process. We look forward to working with Mr. Otunnu and his office towards the September international conference on children affected by armed conflict, which I will have the pleasure of co-hosting with my colleague, Lloyd Axworthy. We hope you will come and spend the time with us.

Mr. Chairman, this conference will bring together ministers, senior officials, NGOs, expert practitioners from the field, witnesses, and children from Canada and war-affected countries as well. This will be a follow-up to the conference that is taking place in Ghana on children, of course, and is a precursor to the one that will be taking place at the UN next year. As Ms. Mobarek said earlier, this is not intended to be a conference for us to talk, but one to find real solutions and to involve all of the players to ensure that in future children are in fact protected from the horrors of war and internal conflict.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Minister, for the concluding remarks.

And again on behalf of the members of the committee, I'd like to thank you, sir, for coming and giving us the benefit of your international experience and your personal experience in respect of this terrible problem that we have to face.

I would like to thank very much Salah and Hannady for coming and sharing their personal experiences with us. I think your testimony has left an impact on the committee, and, believe me, we will all do our bit to work on trying to alleviate the conditions of children in war-torn areas and trying to work with the international community to bring an end to this terrible human tragedy. Thank you very much.

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We're adjourned until tomorrow afternoon at 3 p.m. when Minister Pettigrew will be coming before the committee for estimates.