FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, June 10, 1998

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[Translation]

The Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto-Centre—Rosedale, Lib.)): My apologies for arriving a few minutes late, President Boumaza. I want to welcome you to this meeting with your colleagues from both the Parliament and Senate, if I may use those terms when referring to the Republic of Algeria.

I believe you will be leaving us in five minutes to meet with our Governor General. I would therefore invite you to make a few opening comments to Committee members now, before you have to leave. Your colleagues will be staying to pursue the discussion.

Mr. Bachir Boumaza (President, Council of the Nation of Algeria): I am very pleased to greet all the members present on behalf of the delegation I am leading. We have been in your beautiful country for only 48 hours, and yet we have already been won over. We will have to find some excuse to come back so we can get to know you better.

Yesterday and today, we had an opportunity to see how this long-standing democracy functions. I, personally, have found it a most enriching experience. There is no doubt that every country finds its own ingenious way of governing itself. At the same time, however, some lessons must be learned. Since I will not have the pleasure of staying for the entire meeting, I would just like to make a couple of comments with respect to international relations or international policy.

As everyone knows, there are no real international issues on which Canada and Algeria do not agree. You will probably be addressing some of those issues with my colleagues.

To the members of your Committee—that is the Foreign Affairs Committee—I would like to express my sincere and heartfelt desire for our country to establish closer ties with yours, not only in terms of our economies and our trade, but also our parliamentary relations, so that we can work together to make a contribution to world peace, brotherhood and friendship among peoples.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, President.

Would members of the Algerian Foreign Affairs Committee like to add anything? I will then ask my colleagues to proceed with their questions. This will be an opportunity for an exchange of views.

Mr. Bachir Boumaza: Mr. Bessaieh is the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. He himself is a former Minister of Foreign Affairs, and he also served as Minister of Culture. He is known in Algeria as an extremely cultivated man. I am honoured to be able to count him among my main advisors.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh (Chairman, Committee on Foreign Affairs, International Cooperation and the Algerian Community Abroad, Council of the Nation of Algeria): Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the delegation led by President Bachir Boumaza is happy to have this opportunity to meet with members of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons.

I would simply like to remind all the members of this august assembly that the Algerian Senate, that is the Council of the Nation of Algeria, has only been in existence for five months. One of the first partners with whom we began a dialogue was Canada, since a Canadian parliamentary delegation, led by Mr. Boudria, came to Algiers. Subsequently, we had the pleasure and the honour of receiving another delegation led by Mr. De Bané, to whom we convey our wishes for a speedy recovery.

• 1540

This afternoon, Algeria and Canada are meeting again, but this time, the delegation is led by President Boumaza himself. I should point out that this is his first trip abroad since becoming President of the Council of the Nation, which is a clear sign of just how important relations with Canada are for the Council of the Nation and Algeria as a whole. I want to state right from the outset that we are delighted to note the quality of the relation between our two countries and even more delighted about the quality of the human relationship that has been forged between Algerian parliamentarians and Canadian parliamentarians.

We have come here first and foremost to listen to you and learn. Ours is a newly-formed institution that has need of experience—the kind of experience that a long-established Senate such as yours has to offer. We can associate a specific date with the beginnings of your institution, which were in 1867, and thus we have a great deal to learn from you. Of course, we can also tell you about how we operate in Algeria, if you're interested. In any case, we came mainly to learn from you and thus benefit our own institution back home.

First of all, as regards our relations, there is no doubt that in recent months, a major issue as regards our relations with other countries has been security in Algeria. I know that this is of interest to you. I also take this opportunity to recognize and express admiration for the political courage that you showed during our struggle for liberation. I must say that we showed the entire world that the accusations levelled at our country from various quarters were completely unfounded. Canada was in fact one of the first countries to bear witness to that and to clearly say so.

As you know, at one point, the slogan in the street was: "Who is killing whom in Algeria?" I just want to remind our fellow parliamentarians that we did receive a number of parliamentary delegations, including a Canadian delegation, as I mentioned earlier, but given the special political relationship we have maintained with our European partners, we had ongoing contact and lengthy working sessions with them, which, while difficult initially, resulted in great clarity and serenity, as we were able to see the problem in very clear terms. The European parliamentarians, following our discussions, left convinced that they knew who was killing whom and, as a result, that has not been an issue for many months.

In the wake of the statement by the European Parliament, a statement was made by the American Senate that I could summarize in three points.

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First of all, the American Senate is convinced that it knows the identity of the killers. Secondly, the American Senate is recommending to the American government that it cooperate with the Algerian government. Thirdly, the American Senate is clearly denouncing armed groups. At this point, I would just like to digress briefly, if I may. The American Senate, which is aware of a great many things, used the express "armed groups" rather than "armed group". That means that it is known that there are armed groups and, as a result, when you occasionally hear about collective crimes on occasion, you should know that they involve armed groups engaged in killing each other. In other words, if I can just refresh your memories a little, because I know you are already aware of this, it's similar to what happened in Afghanistan. In that country, they waited until they came to power to start killing one another. In Algeria, in the hypothetical hope of one day coming to power, they have begun to kill each other. That is the difference, although the process is the same.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, what I really wanted to say about the security problem is that as far as we are concerned—and many friends such as you are of the same view—the danger is now behind us. We are making progress in totally eradicating terrorism, because we know full well that it is a universal plague. But at the same time—and this is what makes the approach taken by Algeria and the Algerian people so remarkable and spectacular—we continue to build, broaden and reinforce democracy at home as we pursue the fight against terrorism. Indeed, we believe that it is by strengthening democracy that we will eventually triumph over terrorism.

As for the political and economic reforms that you yourselves have witnessed, as evidenced by your firm statements, I believe I can now say that the progress we have made thus far is very promising. To prove it, I have only to refer you to the statements made by the International Monetary Fund, which recognizes the efforts being made by Algeria towards improved welfare, greater progress and more stability.

I know that what you refer to here in Canada as a human rights issue. I know this is a topic of interest to you and I feel I must say a few words about it. Here in Canada, in French you use the expression "droits de la personne" for human rights, and I believe your expression is more accurate than ours; we say "les droits de l'homme". You see, every time we come, we learn something positive that we can take back home with us. Human rights are protected in Algeria and we are working in this area with the utmost transparency. Reports are sent annually to United Nations groups responsible for this issue. And each time, we have been able to demonstrate the ongoing efforts of Algeria in this area.

There are international issues, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, that may also be of interest to you and indeed all of us. We have a few problems in Africa, as you know. Because I am African and we are Africans, perhaps I could quickly say a word or two about that. Of course, if you have specific questions for us, my colleagues and I will be pleased to answer them.

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In Africa, we have experienced collective genocides, foreign intervention, acknowledged or otherwise, a social malaise, and we have democracies that are still in their infancy; there is also hunger, misery and a foreign debt too large for the populations of these countries to support. I think it would be fair to say that we have great concerns with respect to what is occurring on our continent at this time. We would like the major powers to be more attentive and more generous towards the people who are suffering.

In the Maghreb, we have a problem. If you don't mind, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could give an overview of the major issues, unless you would rather I stop now so that we can move on to questions and answers.

The Chairman: Yes, you can stop now if you have completed your comments. I must admit that the most interesting part of these meetings is the time we devote to an exchange of views among parliamentarians. So, the more time we set aside for that exchange, the better.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: You would prefer to move on to questions then?

The Chairman: Yes, I think we can move directly to questions now. Perhaps you can complete your comments during the question and answer period.

You referred to the recent Canadian parliamentary delegation to your country led by our minister, Mr. Boudria. Ms. Alarie was a member of that delegation and she is with us today. Ms. Folco, who was also part of the group that visited your country, will be joining us shortly.

Of course, I was very pleased to be able to have lunch with you yesterday, particularly in the presence of Ms. Zerdani. You told me that she is not only a senator, but a lawyer as well. I would point out to my colleagues that much is always made of the fact that three lawyers are part of this committee: Mr. Turp, the parliamentary secretary and myself. They say that is too many lawyers. Ms. Zerdani, I want to thank you for coming to our assistance.

Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): You forget that there are also some law professors among us.

The Chairman: I want to welcome everyone to this meeting. We will move directly to questions and comments now.

Mr. Turp.

Mr. Daniel Turp: I, too, would like to welcome you to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs. I had the pleasure of meeting some of you Monday evening, when you arrived. I believe my colleague, Ms. Alarie, who was a member of the parliamentary delegation, has had a chance to meet and talk with you on a number of occasions since your visit. The initiative my colleague took in establishing the Algeria—Canada friendship group, a group in which the Bloc Québécois has been very active, was certainly a very good one. We are of course relying on Hélène to provide leadership and direction to the group.

One thing that must be said and that our party very much wants to convey to you with respect to this democratic enterprise and adventure you are embarking on is our wishes for the best of luck with the parliamentary democracy of which your Council of the Nation is only a part. A significant challenge lies ahead. All democracies are fragile, including the Canadian democracy and the Quebec democracy. Democracy is a daily plebiscite and we certainly wish you the best of luck.

Friendship very much characterizes relations between Algeria and Canada, as it does with Quebec and Quebeckers whom we represent here today as members of the Bloc Québécois. But sometimes friendship also means speaking candidly. As you well know, one of you said that I had made life difficult for Algeria here last fall. But I believe that certain questions had to be asked and that others still must be raised with respect to the current situation in Algeria.

• 1555

One of the questions we did ask then, in light of the increasing massacres, had to do with the possibility of establishing an international commission of inquiry. That idea pleased neither your government nor its representatives here.

When she returned to Canada, Ms. Alarie told us that this was an idea around which there was very little consensus in Algeria, and that neither members of the civil society nor government officials were in favour of an international commission of inquiry. But when she returned, we were told that the idea of a national commission of inquiry to look into the massacres—something that international observers could be invited to participate in—was a possibility.

My first question has to do with whether your government or your parliament is willing to try to shed some light on these massacres and their perpetrators through a commission such as this, on which international observers could be invited to serve. I say that because you yourself emphasized that the massacres were being committed by terrorists. I believe people generally believe that to be the case. When Mr. André Soulier reported to the European Parliament following the return of the delegation he was leading, he suggested that possibly one or two massacres could not in fact be attributed to terrorist groups. So, that is my first question.

My second question deals with freedom of the press. That is an issue of great concern to people both here and elsewhere. I would like to know how you see freedom of the press, whether it is true, from your perspective, that freedom of the press is still limited, and what steps you intend to take to increase that freedom and truly ensure that Algerians have access to the most objective and accurate information possible.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: Thank you, Mr. Turp. You first referred to the possibility of an international or national commission to look into certain events, and particularly the fact that Mr. Soulier apparently said that certain sanctions were warranted in such and such a case.

I think it's fair to say that European parliamentarians arrived at the conclusion that not only did the Algerians themselves not want an international inquiry but that such an inquiry would serve no purpose. Why? Because we know who is responsible for this violence. Not only do we know who the perpetrators are, but they actually leave their signature when they commit these acts. All you have to do is walk past the London mosque to see the pamphlets these armed organizations or groups are writing, and they are actually signing these pamphlets acknowledging that they are the perpetrators of these crimes.

I will come back to that point a little later to try to show the complicity—and I use that word advisedly—that currently exists between certain interests in Europe and these armed groups. As for Mr. Soulier's statements, I can certainly tell you that we are following the statements made by Mr. Soulier and other parliamentarians, since they really put us under a microscope when they came to Algeria.

Mr. Daniel Turp: I hope so.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: Certainly. And I would challenge anyone to show me a statement of that kind by Mr. Soulier.

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Perhaps you heard that such a statement had been made, Mr. Turp. I am not questioning your good faith, but I want you to know we are paying very close attention to the actions being taken by parliamentarians, particularly European parliamentarians who are right across from us. At no time was there any question of such a statement being made.

Mr. Daniel Turp: Well, I can certainly provide you with a copy of the text after the meeting, if you like.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: Yes, press agencies. I was Minister of Information and I am familiar with the problem.

As for your second question about freedom of the press, I can tell you, Mr. Turp and ladies and gentlemen, that since we became engaged in the democratic process, we have deliberately and voluntarily designed that process in such a way that there can be no strengthening of the democratic process without greater freedom of the press.

In fact, I can tell you—and you will tell me if I am mistaken—that there is a new information code currently before the National Assembly providing for greater freedom of the press. What we all know and what everyone who visits Algeria knows, is this. Let me try to draw a comparison. You all are familiar with Paris, the capital of France, with its freedom of the press, its newspapers, dailies, weeklies and magazines, and the cultural sophistication not only of the press but of the French environment. Perhaps you are also aware of the cultural level in Algeria, which is far from equalling that in France. Despite that fact, there are more dailies in Algiers than there are in Paris.

As for the content of that press, not a day goes by without the government being called every name in the book, for the slightest thing. I would add that the parliamentary debates of our House of Commons and our Senate are televised live. What the press fails to mention, television is able to show. That just gives you an idea of how transparent the whole process now is in Algeria. We are moving very very quickly. In certain very advanced European countries, such a practice is not yet in place.

So, the press has a great deal of freedom, even though there is always room for improvement. That's why I referred to the information code that will soon be tabled before the National Assembly and our body as well. I can assure you that we are determined to establish democracy in Algeria and that we cannot possibly imagine that democracy could either be established and take hold were it not supported by a free press.

Thank you.

Mr. Daniel Turp: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Bachand, you have the floor.

Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Welcome. It's a pleasure to see you again. You seem to be in much better shape now than you were when you arrived on Monday, when we had a chance to meet at the hotel. I guess you had time to rest a little. That's great.

My question is two-fold. Algeria's domestic situation is a concern. Of course, our domestic situation concerns us as well. So, we always try to be as credible as possible when we comment on what goes on in other countries, so as to be equally credible in our own—in other words, in our own geopolitical environment.

I have two questions with respect to what are being called the massacres. First of all, there is the matter of other massacres occurring on the African peninsula. You referred to that, Mr. President.

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Someone like me who doesn't really know the specifics of the situation in Algeria, said to me: "maybe we should talk about it." Algeria's problems seem to be receding. At least, we hear about them less. We heard about 30 people having their throats cut. In a country not far from there, we heard of some 10,000 people being killed over a weekend. So, I think it's very important that you pursue your efforts to improve Algeria's domestic security.

It's very difficult for me to pass judgment on what you are doing. The only thing I can say, is that every human life deserves to be defended. If our country can give you a hand, it will do so. But I am not passing judgment. However, do consider Canada as an ally who can help to support your efforts. As far as I'm concerned, the best solution to the problems you are experiencing is democratization and economic development.

You talked about freedom. I would like you to address the concept of freedom, but very briefly. You said you are working to improve freedom of the press. Yet freedom is a supposedly pure concept. What is your conception of freedom?

Another element that I see as being very important, indeed necessary to ensure a country's stability, is economic development. I had the pleasure of speaking with Mr. Benbitour, who was nice enough to spend some time with me despite being tired from his trip. We talked about economic development. Mr. Benbitour passed on some information. You referred to the IMF, and that is certainly very important, but what process is Algeria currently putting in place to deal with the problem of unemployment, which is high in Algeria according to the latest figures we have, and to thereby create some economic stability?

Economic instability can give rise to political instability. A youth under the age of 20 with no future might be tempted to take up arms and find his own solutions.

So, I would like you to first address the concept of freedom, and then talk about your relations with your neighbours in terms of Algeria's domestic security and economic development. By that I mean the work currently underway in Algeria, which seems to be having some effect.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: First of all, thank you for your words of support for our current efforts. We expected no less. We knew that we could rely on the strong support of our Canadian friends.

I said there was room for improvement. As far as I'm concerned, the concept of freedom is linked to the political context and the social environment in which that freedom finds expression. The process that is currently underway in Algeria can be compared to the actions of Cromwell and the revolutionaries of 1789. The process is the same, but the content of that freedom is not the same because that era was characterized by force and the ability to manage that freedom at some point.

When I say that there is room for improvement, you know as well as I do that the same may apply to you. We have many journalists and many lawyers as well who have become members of parliament. It seems to me that journalists, who are the primary proponents of their freedom—since we were talking about freedom of the press earlier—and lawyers, whose role is to defend those whose freedoms have been violated, will certainly come together one day to work at improving those freedoms.

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That's why I say that when we have that debate, new ideas will certainly come forward and people will have an opportunity to make any amendments they feel are required. In any case, we are always pleased to hear new ideas that could help us to improve the situation.

We have one ambition, Mr. Bachand, and it is considerable. We believe we are fulfilling a mission. I don't know whether I have time to explain what I mean. Mr. Chairman, can I take a couple of minutes to explain? I will try to be quick.

For example, as far as Islam is concerned, we believe that we are in the process of defending the true concept of Islam and that as a result, we are in fact working for the betterment of other Islamic countries. We are paying the debt of violence in order to save the idea and image of Islam.

In 1830, Mr. Bachand, ladies and gentlemen, France arrived in our country. That was the beginning of the conquest of Algeria. And it is through that conquest that it moved on to conquer the rest of Africa.

In the 1960s, when we were in the midst of a bitter and fierce battle against the French occupier, France began to decolonize in Africa in order to consolidate its position in Algeria. In other words, once again, events in Algeria were the trigger for decolonization.

We believe that we are now in the process of establishing freedom and democracy in Algeria so that tomorrow, that same process can occur elsewhere. Once again, everything begins with Algeria. We are a laboratory of sorts and we pay for that dearly. But although we do pay dearly to defend noble ideas such as democracy and freedom, it is not wasted. All of humanity benefits.

I believe you also asked me a question about the domestic situation. Canada is also a vast country. Fortunately, there is no violence. You have large open spaces. That is another area where we are similar. We, too, have large open spaces; ours is a very vast country. The only African country larger than Algeria is the Sudan. We have seven borders. So, domestic security is not a simple matter. Yet we are doing what we can to maintain cordial relations with our neighbours. We are working to that end.

Earlier I was going to talk about the Western Sahara, but I think it's best that I don't. Other than that problem which is a very central one in our relations, we believe it's important to always be working for the future. One must never insult the future. In human relations as in relations between countries, one must never insult the future. It is important to always preserve every chance to build for the future.

We have no choice but to live together in the Maghreb; you are creating new entities in the region with Mexico. Our ambition is to do the same. As far as economic issues are concerned, because Mr. Benbitour is present, it is best that I let him comment.

Mr. Ahmed Benbitour (Economic Affairs and Finance Committee, Council of the Nation of Algeria): First of all, allow me to express my thanks for meeting with us this afternoon, and thank you also for your questions. I will try to answer the last question, which dealt with economic development and the particular problem of unemployment, and the way of dealing with this kind of unemployment.

It is clear that when you have a problem such as the ones we began to experience in the early 1990s, you cannot achieve success with a program unless it is comprehensive, strategic and focused on the long term. As a result, our national recovery program had not only an economic focus but a political one, such as the recent creation of political institutions. There are also certain elements that have recently been developed by the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs and Cooperation Committee, as well as economic elements.

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The economic elements were of two types: cyclical, in other words linked to the country's fiscal balance, and structural. I will begin by addressing the structural elements and move on after that to the cyclical ones.

In terms of the structural elements, we have two types of constraints: the constraint that comes with dependency and social constraints. Ninety-five percent of our revenues were drawn from our exports of a single product: oil. You know that it is a highly volatile product which unfortunately is in a phase of declining rather than increasing prices over the long term, since today's prices are lower than what they were before 1973, at the time of the famous oil boom. Just to give you a point of reference, in 1986, we experienced a drop in income of 40% and a drop in purchasing power of 50% in a single year. That is the kind of shock we are facing. So that is the first type of external dependency. And that dependency means that with less income, we have problems of economic supply.

The second type of dependency is food dependency. We import 75% of the calories that we consume. We import 100% of the oil and 70% of the grains we consume. We are the world's largest importer of durum wheat and are among the ten largest importers of food products in the world. So, that gives you an idea of our food dependency. Our annual food bill is $2 billion US, plus $500 million in input for agricultural production. Of course, a figure of $2 billion may not mean much, but we're talking about $2 billion in relation to total revenues of 10 billion. So, 25% of our income goes each year to imported food products each year.

The third type of dependency is related to our foreign debt. We reached a point, in 1993, where our debt service ratio was 86%. In other words, for every $100 in goods, including services, that we exported, we had to spend $86 on our debt. That left only $14 to meet all our other needs.

In the three difficult years we lived through, between 1991 and 1993, we had to make net transfers to the rest of the world; in other words, our credits less what we paid to service our debt. During those three very difficult years, we made net transfers of some $10 billion to the rest of the world. We had $3 billion less each year. As a result, imports in 1993 were half of what they were in 1985. So, those are the three problems of dependency we face in Algeria.

Let's talk about structural social problems now. In that area we are facing two types of problems. The first is unemployment. To give you an idea of the current situation, our labour force is growing by 4%. And when we talk about the labour force, we are talking about people entering the labour market, not population growth. We made an effort to bring population growth down from 3.2 to 2.1%, but because there was a population boom at the time of independence, that generation is now entering the labour market. So, our labour force is growing by 4%. Between 1985 and 1993, just before the program was introduced—and I'm giving you all these figures to explain why we launched this program and the kinds of problems we are facing—the labour force grew by some 1,980,000 people, even though we had only created 800,000 jobs. That means that the number of unemployed increased by 1,120,000 between 1985 and 1993, not to mention the fact that there are between 250,000 and 300,000 new labour market entrants each year.

In order to cope in this kind of situation, you need a growth rate, excluding hydrocarbons, because hydrocarbons are not linked to employment, of 8% in real terms. In Algeria, the employment growth rate, excluding hydrocarbons, is 2%. That means you need an 8% growth rate just to maintain unemployment at its current level. That is how things now stand from a social standpoint.

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In terms of housing, the situation is the same. Based on six people per housing unit, we currently have a deficit of 1.2 million units. Of course, if that increases, we will be looking at a much larger deficit if we cannot increase the pace of new housing starts.

Also, this population growth makes for significant social expenditures which are actually becoming less and less effective. They are less and less able to meet the basic needs of the population at the lowest levels.

So much for the structural aspects of the problem. But there are also the current economic conditions. We had a government deficit in the order of 9% of GDP. I referred earlier to the debt service ratio. Inflation was also at 30%. We had practically no reserves. So, we had to deal with that. In addition to that, we were going through the transition, from an economic standpoint, to a market economy, with all the social problems that entails, and the transition, from a political standpoint, from a single party to a multiparty system, with all the security issues that gave rise to. If the program yielded results, it is because it was well designed and well thought out. That is something people may not be aware of.

In addition to all that has been said about political and security issues, significant progress has also been achieved economically. So, there was a need for a four-year program. First of all, we had to bring down...

The Chairman: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we only have 10 minutes left and two other members of Parliament would like to ask questions. I would therefore ask you to conclude your answer quickly so that we can give others a chance to ask their questions. I'm sorry, but we really are short of time.

Mr. Ahmed Benbitour: Very well. I will move directly to results. We have implemented an economic program that has allowed us to bring down the debt service ratio from 86 to 30%, our budget deficit, from 9% to 3%, and inflation from 30% to 6%, but we now have to bring in a program of structural adjustment in order to deal with our production sectors and the structural constraints I explained earlier, namely our dependency on hydrocarbons, the dependency linked to our foreign debt and our food dependency. We also have to deal with social problems like unemployment and housing shortages.

Perhaps I can provide additional details as I answer questions.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. And again, my apologies.

Mr. Assadourian.

[English]

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Can I speak in Arabic now?

The Chairman: Well, you can start in Arabic.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: First of all, thank you very much for appearing before this committee.

My relationship with the Arabs goes way back. I was born in the Middle East. I'm quite familiar with the conflicts in Algeria and in the Middle East.

First of all, I welcome you to this committee. I really appreciate you taking time to appear as a witness here. We've discussed this issue on numerous occasions during the past few months, because we are very much concerned about what has happened in Algeria, not only in the last few years but also for a long time.

I have two questions. One of them is, in hindsight, when you look back on the 1991-92 situation, where the government of the day saw fit to cancel the elections, which were won by FIS, and the consequences of that, the civil war, which claimed about 80,000 people, do you think it was a wise decision to do it then, where the press was paid by the Algerian population in general—international relations with Algeria versus the world? That's my first question.

My second question has to do with the peace process in the Middle East. Would you elaborate on Algeria's relations with the Palestinian authority and the peace process, if you ever had any contact with the Israeli government that had to do with an improved situation in the Middle East, and what your position is regarding the peace process?

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[Translation]

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: Ms. Zerdani will answer your first question.

Ms. Mériem Zerdani (Chairperson, Group of Independents, Council of the Nation of Algeria): The member asked a question about whether a mistake had been made by the government in power in Algeria in 1991-1992, which suspended the electoral process and cancelled a second round of voting scheduled for January 7, 1992 in Algiers, suggesting that this decision had set off civil war in Algeria and may have complicated its relations with other countries.

My answer would be that I am a woman, an activist and yet my life, my very existence was threatened because I had been unlucky enough, given the philosophy and barbarism of the revenue department, to be born a woman. Because I was a woman, I had no right to express my views. During the election campaign carried out by the FIS during the first round of voting, and also between the first and second round, they threatened us, using the most heavy-hitting media—television—saying that there would be democracy once, but not twice, because as they put it, democracy was kofr. That means that it was a sin. They said that as in Nazi Germany, where Hitlerism had been spread through elections, they too would achieve their ends through the election process. They were promising that there would be no more elections in Algeria in future.

The massacres had already begun before the second round of voting. There was a barracks on the border with Tunisia, near El-Wad, where twenty people had been massacred. The victims were soldiers doing their national service whose sexual organs were cut off and placed in their mouths before their bodies were left next to the barracks. The attacks had already begun before the second round of voting and Mr. Mohammed Saïd, who would later draw up the list of intellectuals that were to be assassinated, had made an inflammatory speech between December 26 and January 7.

When we realized—we the democratic forces in the country, the Republicans who wanted to see Algeria transformed into a modern country and who had fought for years to be able to go to school, to study and not to wear the veil—that they wanted us to wear the tchador and deny us access, as they did in Afghanistan and Iran, we the progressive women of Algeria, with the men by our side—because it is the women who were behind this movement and who formed the delegation—went to see the then authorities and told them: "We don't want a second round of voting because that would mean that we had made a commitment to modernity in our own lives over the years had been for naught and that you were now going to throw us to the lions and give in to this barbarism."

In cooperation with the UGTA union, which was the social foundation of the country, we created the famous Committee to Save Algeria. It is as members of this committee, with every man and woman in Algeria eager for a democratic process, a Republican regime and a system that would defend public freedoms, that we went down into the streets—some 1.2 million people in Algiers—to call for an end to the electoral process.

The second round of voting would have meant the negation of the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria. It also would have meant that women no longer have a place in this country. That is how the second round of voting was stopped and fortunately Ϋ because it's possible the Parliament of Canada and the European Parliament would subsequently have adopted a resolution, as they did with respect to Afghanistan, declaring a day of solidarity with Afghan women to show support for them.

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We, the women of Algeria, took this initiative so that we would not suffer the same fate as the women of Iran and Afghanistan. And we would do the same thing again if we had to, because we the democratic, republican forces in Algeria, who believe in our citizenship, will never allow them to push us around. We will fight back. Maybe one day we will be beaten, but you only lose those battles you don't start. We started this battle, we are winning it and we are now emerging from the tunnel. We have built an institution; there are men and women, quite a few women, who sit in both chambers of parliament. We defend our rights and we defend the freedom of the press, because if there is no freedom of the press, there is no freedom. We have newspapers that publish articles every day defending that republic, or that hurl insults and abuse, but it doesn't matter. That is how we will continue to make progress.

My answer to you, then, is that we asked that the electoral process be stopped because if we hadn't done that, we would now be a second Afghanistan. You have seen the kind of living conditions that women there are forced to put up with, women who go through the streets—when they actually do go into the streets—wearing a curtain, and who cannot receive medical treatment because it is prohibited to treat women. Because women are not allowed to pursue their studies, there are no women doctors and a woman cannot be treated by a male doctor because she is a woman. She is the scum of the earth. Let her die! But we will not die. We want to live and Algeria, too, will live. That is the message we want to convey today; that Algeria has men and women who believe in the republic and who know how to follow role models such as Canada. We know that Canada has had its problems and has been able to surmount many obstacles throughout its history. We stand proud as republican men and women, men and women citizens who will never allow fundamentalism to take hold in our country.

The question remains of who is doing the killings. As he was leaving Algeria, Mr. Soulier said: "It's indecent to ask that question, because the FIS and the GIA, through their production in London, England—which is called El Ribat—publish the assassinations committed in Algeria every single day." The executioners themselves are proclaiming: "We are the executioners." The victims are pointing to them as the executioners and yet elsewhere, people are saying: "But who is killing whom?". What do they take us for? It seems to me that just by asking the question, we are providing support to the GIA. The GIA is synonymous with terrorism, death, and barbarism. They are the ones who cut children in pieces, put the pieces in plastic garbage bags and then throw them into the sewers. They gang rape women and then decapitate them.

You have been given an idea of economic conditions in Algeria, which we have not been able to improve from the macro economic standpoint. We expect you to find the best way of assisting us and of upholding all that is protected by the universal declaration of human rights. We are the victims. We are the ones you must protect and assist. You can help us because you have the necessary institutional experience and technological advancement.

We have vast open spaces, as you do here in Canada. Your surface area is 2.8 million square kilometres, compared to 2.4 million for Algeria. How can Canada, with its experience, its technology, its know-how and its talent help Algeria to take back the land so that we can cultivate it and develop a comprehensive land use policy? That problem is directly linked to the water problem. You also have tremendous expertise in that area. Together, Canada and Algeria, with your know-how and sometimes even with few means, we can turn the Sahara desert into another California. You have always been by our side; you haven't been a colonizing power and we can speak to each other as equals, with no complexes.

• 1635

Since I came to Canada, I have had the feeling that I am in my own country. I sense no desire to play guardian or give advice, and no paternalism. I am seen as a woman able to express and defend her opinions. There are no complexes here, which is something we don't feel in many European countries, and one in particular whose past is closely linked to ours.

As Mr. Benbitour mentioned at previous meetings, we also face the problem of stalled industry. If it is productive, it will create jobs. There again, you can be of assistance. That industry exists, but it is stalled and you can help us to kickstart it. You will benefit. You will have opportunities to make important gains because we have an investment code. I was one of the people developed that investment code when I was part of government, at the same time as Mr. Benbitour. That investment code offers the most incentives of any in the world. So, the industrial infrastructure is there. And thanks to your know-how, technology and machines, we will manage to kick-start it. It is a way of providing assistance but at the same time respecting our dignity. We do not want charity. We want people to respect our dignity. We want to work. We want to develop our country. With you, we can do that, we can succeed.

There is one issue that is sometimes seen as an obstacle for Canadian investors, and that is investment insurance. When we put plants back into circulation, the insurance rate on those investments is not very high. It is acceptable. As the saying goes, little streams make big rivers. When industry is back on track, thanks to your support and your know-how, which will also mean dividends for you, there will other projects in Algeria. It is a country with enormous resources, resources that must be developed. But we need the financial and human means to develop them. We can do it with you, Canada, and the long-standing friendship between Algeria and Canada will then truly be a reality. In Algeria, the dream of every young Algerian is not the American dream. No. They talk about Canada. Their dream is the Canadian dream. And 75% of the population is under the age of 30. So Canada is the dream of 75% of Algeria's population.

Do something for us that does not compromise our dignity and that will also allow you to develop more solid economic ties and have an ever increasing trade balance. You will benefit, and we will benefit along with you. Long live the friendship between Canada and Algeria!

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Zerdani. Ms. Debien, for a lack of time, we may not have an opportunity to ask the question we had thought of with respect to the role of women in Algerian politics. I believe Ms. Zerdani has already answered it.

Ms. Maud Debien (Laval-Est, BQ): We all heard Ms. Zerdani's eloquent defence of the freedom for which the men and women of Algeria have been fighting for a number of years. Since we're talking about freedom, perhaps we can also talk about women's freedom and the status of women in Algeria.

I know that because of the Family Code that has been in place there since 1984, the Algerian constitution, which prohibits all discrimination on the basis of origin, race, religion and sex, is in a way being violated. It would seem that women in your country continue to be the victims of very extensive legal and social discrimination.

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I could cite a number of important examples of these different forms of discrimination. Even though you apparently have recently struck a committee on the protection and promotion of women, the fact remains that no amendments have been proposed to the family code.

I would be interested in hearing your views on this and finding out from you what steps have been taken in this regard.

The Chairman: Could I just interrupt for a moment? We are already 10 minutes past our allocated time, but we still have a few minutes. I know that the entire committee would like to be able to extend the sitting. However, I would invite you all to be as brief as possible so that we can get an answer to M. Assadourian's second question about general policy with respect to the Middle East.

Ms. Mériem Zerdani: My answer will be very short, Ms. Debien. I was one of those who came before the National People's Assembly in 1984 to ask that the Family Code be improved. About two weeks ago, we tabled legislation in the National Assembly amending the Family Code. It will be referred to a committee for further study between now and the fall. You can trust the women currently sitting in the National People's Assembly and the Senate to defend their rights with well-sharpened tongues and nails. I will keep you up to date on any changes to the legislation.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Zerdani.

Ms. Boualem Bessaieh: I would just like to say, ladies, that Ms. Zerdani and her sisters will not be alone; there are also men supporting them.

The member asked an interesting question. When the Palestinian state was created, it was created in Algiers. When the Oslo Accord were signed, Algeria took great delight in this important step forward for the peace process. You asked me whether we maintained relations with Israel. I can tell you right now that the answer is no, and we are not in fact the only Arab country not to maintain relations. Indeed, I believe the majority of Arab countries do not carry on relations with Israel.

If I may, I would just like to digress for a moment. What we have always hoped is that the peace process would succeed in the conditions that prevailed when the Oslo Accord was reached. There was the Madrid Conference. There were discussions that had their ups and downs. We have carefully followed all the stages of the process.

We often have told those who had ongoing relations with Israel to tell that partner that it is lucky to have, as leader of the Palestinian resistance movement or the Palestinian state a man whose wisdom and moderation are recognized internationally, and that it must not pass up this chance for peace, because if there were someone else there instead of Mr. Arafat, the chances for peace would be considerably lessened, given that some Palestinians and Israelis are against the peace process. You know that as well as I do.

I note, and you will also have noted this, Mr. Assadourian, that less than a week ago, Mr. Netanyahu made the following statement to a CNN reporter, and you can check it for yourself: "First I'm going to be sure that Mr. Clinton is credible back home before having discussions with him." It seems to me that at the very least, that can be described as verbal arrogance.

[English]

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: May I present this book?

The Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian:

[Editor's Note: Member speaks in Arabic]

It's my great pleasure to present this book to you. It's written by the Prime Minister of Canada. It was translated by the Prime Minister of Lebanon when he was here last year. So on behalf of the committee, I'd like to give this to you.

• 1645

[Editor's Note: Member speaks in Arabic]

The Chairman: Thank you.

[Translation]

I believe we have gone past the time set aside for this meeting. On behalf of all the members of our committee, I would like to thank our Algerian colleagues for coming to Canada. We maintain very close ties in a number of areas. For example, you are our main contact and the African country with the most trade ties with Canada. The value of our trade is $1 billion a year. And our many human contacts are a source of great joy.

I believe I speak for all my committee colleagues when I say that we hope that your visit to Canada will be extremely enriching. Rest assured that it certainly has been for us.

We wish you the best of luck in your ongoing efforts back home in the area of democratization and protection of human rights. We wish you a pleasant and safe trip home.

Senator, keep up the good work in the Senate in defence of women's rights, if I can put it that way, and thank you very much for being with us.

Mr. Boualem Bessaieh: Thank you very much.

Ms. Mériem Zerdani: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

The Chairman: At 9 a.m. tomorrow, we'll have Mr. Roy Culpeper of the North-South Institute. But also we'll be dealing with the motions we've got in front of us, as well as the French nuclear expert.

The meeting is adjourned.