ENSU Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE L'ENVIRONNEMENT ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DURABLE

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, June 11, 1998

• 1116

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.)): Good morning and welcome to the committee.

This could be the last meeting before we adjourn for the summer. For that reason, before we welcome and hear from our witnesses and friends today, I would like to bring a matter of some importance to your attention, which came by way of a letter to my office this morning. It has to do with the biodiversity information infrastructure, which is a rather heavy word.

Apparently at the present in Canada we have fragmented information on various aspects of our biodiversity. It is over there in academia, it is over there in some departments, and it is over there in certain interested museums. In a way it is so disconnected that I'm told we cannot tell if we are losing or winning in biodiversity, that we do not have the biological data for good environmental assessments of projects, and that we will not be able to determine the biological consequences of climate change, toxics, or ozone layer depletion. In addition to that, we have a very difficult time in valuing biological services and in organizing biological monitoring of water pollution, since we have not pulled together taxonomic data on aquatic insects.

All this sounds a little bit technical, but nevertheless it is of some importance. It is necessary to understand this issue better before this committee takes a position and possibly makes recommendations.

This matter was originally brought to my attention by a colleague of ours, a member of this committee, Mr. Charbonneau. He arranged for a meeting with representatives of the Museum of Nature here in Ottawa. That took place one month ago. Since then there have been other meetings, which have resulted in these conclusions that I just brought to your attention.

I'm therefore bringing this to your attention today because in the fall it would be desirable if we as a committee were to sit down one day, one afternoon, or whatever, and meet with the people of the Museum of Nature, if you are agreeable of course, and get an understanding of the nature of this particular problem and see whether, as a result of that, we can make some constructive suggestions. Do I have your concurrence in proceeding with this?

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Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Chairman, it's not the issue, but my concern is our timeframe, because if we do adjourn today, that will mean two weeks of hearings that will be pushed into the fall. There's the potential of endangered species legislation being introduced, and we have CEPA. My concern is just the time. Are we going to have the time to do all these things?

The Chairman: This raises another matter, of course, which I was going to raise in a moment, because this is not a matter that could be organized very quickly. It would find its own appropriate slot at an appropriate time, when the committee has a moment to do that, without interfering with CEPA.

Yes, Mr. Jordan?

Mr. Joe Jordan (Leeds—Grenville, Lib.): It strikes me that if we were to not bring the Atomic Energy Commissioner forward, we might be able to find the time.

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Chairman: Fine. So then with that understanding, with the help of the clerk, we will organize an event for the committee to get into this matter.

Then the next question to you is, if we are adjourning today, whether you are willing to come to Ottawa next week or subsequently, or whether you feel we should wait until September to resume our hearings.

Mr. Knutson.

Mr. Gar Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London, Lib.): I think we should wait until September to resume the CEPA hearings.

The Chairman: Mr. Herron.

Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): I would concur with Mr. Knutson that CEPA is a pretty complex piece of legislation, and it would provide us ample time to do some of our own homework in the meantime.

The Chairman: Mr. Gilmour.

Mr. Bill Gilmour: I would suggest the same. The option I wouldn't mind exploring is that perhaps a few days before the House begins, we might have a couple of heavy days. But I leave that up to everybody, depending on their schedule and time. Perhaps a Thursday and Friday before the House opens....

The Chairman: The clerk and I, then, on the strength of that, will get together and circulate a proposal.

Mr. Bill Gilmour: Depending.... I certainly don't want to....

The Chairman: Well, we will not hold a committee meeting unless there is sufficient attendance.

Mr. Bill Gilmour: Okay.

The Chairman: Mr. Knutson.

Mr. Gar Knutson: If we're anxious to wrap up CEPA, my preference would be that we book some full days and maybe some evening work in the first few weeks, because typically the first few weeks that we're back after September 21 are not that busy, because you've been able to catch up over the summer. So rather than coming back prior to September 21, if we just went all day Tuesday and maybe Wednesday and into the Wednesday evening, we'd be refreshed and we wouldn't be competing with a whole bunch of other things.

The Chairman: Mr. Gilmour was also suggesting the Friday before we resume.

Mr. Bill Gilmour: I've gone through the evening sessions before, and I find my attention span is down to about 20% in the evenings.

Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (York North, Lib.): I have a point of order.

The Chairman: Madam Kraft Sloan.

Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan: I'm very concerned about having a discussion about committee business while we have witnesses waiting here.

The Chairman: Yes, I appreciate your concern, but it has to be done. So we will wrap up very quickly.

If I understand you correctly, there is some suggestion that we compress meetings and also a suggestion that we meet on the Friday preceding the week when we resume our work. So the clerk and I will try to put together a draft proposal and mail it out.

Madam Kraft Sloan.

Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan: We may also be in a situation where the committee is reconstituted, so the decisions we make as a committee may not hold, because we don't know what the membership of the committee will be in the fall.

The Chairman: That may well be. Nevertheless, we can only do our best.

Good. Are there any further suggestions?

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Well then, we would like to welcome very warmly the people who have come such a long distance to Ottawa, to meet with ministers and officials and our committee. I'm referring to the Dene community of Deline. As you can see, we have been given this room so as to provide also for coverage by television. Therefore this meeting will be watched and followed by Canadians who have access to the CPAC channel.

In welcoming you all, I would like to leave to you the way in which you would like to intervene this morning. I understand you have interpreters, and that you wish to speak to us about your report. When you have completed, of course, we will have a round of questions, keeping in mind that we might be interrupted around 12.30 or so by the bells for a vote.

Again, welcome to the committee.

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday (Chair, Deline Uranium Committee, Dene Community of Deline): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, members, for having us here to listen to what the people of Deline have experienced and are experiencing.

What I propose is that I will introduce our delegation, and then I will ask our elder and traditional chief to speak to you and share our report with you. I am the chair of the uranium committee that has been set up by the community and mandated to discuss this issue with the Government of Canada. I will then ask the other two members to share their thoughts with you as well.

With us is Joe Blondin, Jr. His family lived at Port Radium, on the land, and he is a member of the renewable resource council, which focuses on harvesting rights and issues, and living on the land.

Gina Bayha is a member of the band council. She's a nurse by training, but she's also one of the young people who have expended a great deal of time in helping the community and myself in addressing the issue at hand.

Paul Baton has been chief for many, many years, from negotiating the treaties right down through the years. He has done a great deal of work with the community, and has a lot of history to share on the issue at hand. He is one of the four surviving ore carriers. Two weeks ago we had five. Now we have four. He will share that experience with you.

I myself am Cindy Kenny Gilday. I'm chair of the uranium committee. I've spent most of my life on environmental issues—that's a good 25 or 30 years—so I'd like to share my views of what the issue is about as well.

That's the way we will start. Is that fair? Thank you.

We have a second-language situation. I am sorry, because there's no translator available, and we have to use one of our delegates to make translations here. It's not fair to Gina, but she will provide that help.

A voice: You didn't introduce Murray.

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: Oh, I'm sorry. You know, I always take my helpers for granted. I guess it's an honour that I do.

This is Murray Klippenstein, who's our technical helper, and I don't think we would have got this far without him. I just forget him because he lives down here. He's our technical helper and is a lawyer as well. There is another gentleman named Andrew Orkin, who's not here today, but those guys have been a great deal of help in putting our story together in a form the Government of Canada can understand.

Thank you.

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Mr. Paul Baton (Community Delegate, Dene Community of Deline) (Interpretation): I have lived for a number of years at the Port Radium site we're talking about today. Today our people are suffering with many different illnesses. Many of our people have already died and are continuing to die. We are concerned about the health issues in terms of the impact it has had on our people and is continuing to have on our people. We are concerned about future generations: our children, our children's children, and so forth. We want them to have a good life. We want to pass something on to them that is good.

Over the years we have increased in this type of suffering. Through the doctors who diagnosed many of our people, we are aware of what is now referred to as cancer. Our efforts today are to recognize the fact that we want to pass on something to our future generations. We know that unless we do something about this situation, they will inherit our present-day situation, which is the ongoing suffering and impact this has on the people of Deline.

We also recognize, as Dene people, that our land, water, wildlife, and all the natural elements around us in our environment are very important to us.

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Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: I just want to say please be patient, because in the traditional way of making a presentation on such a serious issue, it would take an hour of continuous speaking. So with this sort of translation thing, it's very difficult for him to stop in the middle of an important point to be translated. This is going to be ongoing. We'll just keep going back and forth. Okay?

Mr. Paul Baton (Interpretation): Yesterday I talked about the treaty negotiations in 1921. For three days the chiefs of the Mackenzie Valley negotiated with the federal representatives to sign Treaty 11 of 1921. Back then hardly anybody understood English. All the people there spoke their language, and they didn't understand or speak English, so the few people who did understand English tried to interpret for them.

At the time, the Dene people decided the land was very important to them. They also expressed that they relied solely on the environment—the fish, the caribou, the wildlife, and the water—for their subsistence. They were concerned that these negotiations were taking into consideration exchange of land in return for access to and use of the land.

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Back then the Dene people were very concerned about this issue, because they understood there was going to be an exchange of money for using the land and the resources, so they consulted with the bishop. The reason they consulted with this bishop is they felt the bishop was a man of God and he was closest to God in that way, so he would provide them with accurate advice about what to do in this situation. After consultation with the bishop, the bishop said, “Yes, it's a good agreement, and if you do sign, the government will promise to look after you, not only now but in the future.”

So after they had the consultation with the bishop, the bishop interpreted to them and advised them that it was a good agreement, because the land would not be taken away or altered in any way. He said, “Everything will remain the same; it will not be changed. They will give you the money, because in the future others will come here in your area and they will populate your area. Because of this, the government is looking into the future, and they will look after you. The agreement basically means that in exchange for money, should you get sick, the government will look after you, and should you need assistance, such as food items, they will also provide you with that kind of assistance, and you will continue your way of life as you do now. All the hunting and fishing and all your cultural ways you can continue to do. And this agreement will stand. It will not change, even into the future. As long as the grass grows and the Mackenzie River flows and the sun sets, this agreement will not be changed.”

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Even today, that is what we still honour—this agreement that the federal government made with us back in 1921.

During the 1930s, during the time of the mining activity that was happening at Port Radium, we lived at the Port Radium site. Back then there were only small planes, so the people who operated the mine then were not able to transport food for long distances from the south. So what they were doing was hunting and fishing and selling caribou meat and fish back to the people who were operating the mine, to feed the miners.

We lived at Port Radium there for a long time. Back then, I can remember that there were a lot of elders. Back then, the people used to live long lives. Even though they were very old, they were still very healthy, and they travelled long distances and continued all their subsistence harvesting activities for themselves and their families. I can remember that even though they were very old, they also had their health, and they continued to carry out all the activities for their own survival.

I don't remember as much illness as we are faced with today. Today that has all been changed.

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Shortly after that, one of the things that was well known was that people started being diagnosed with TB. A lot of them were sent out to the hospitals outside of the community. Some people just never went for any type of treatment. It was well known, and some of the people got treatment and some of them didn't.

Over the last 25 years we have heard of nothing but cancer among our people. The majority of our people who have died have died of cancer. We the Dene now know that it is related to the exposure to uranium. We feel that our animals, our caribou, our fish, our water and our environment are contaminated, and it may be affecting us in turn, because we are consumers of these elements.

I was one of the ore carriers who worked in the ore transportation from the Port Radium site. There was no machinery back then, so all the transportation was done by arm.

During those years there were a lot of people who worked at the Port Radium site and along all the major transportation stop-off sites along Great Bear Lake and along the Mackenzie River down to Tulita and onwards. There were a lot of Dene who worked in assisting with this transportation.

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As for the people who worked in mining and transportation and those who were boat captains and who worked on the boat decks, all of those are dead. Even the non-aboriginal people who participated are not with us any more.

This is what happened, and that's why we're telling you our story.

Regarding the discovery of the uranium deposit at Port Radium, what happened is that one of the Dene persons in our community, the father of Victor Beyonnie, was the person who discovered the first uranium ore. When he discovered this unusual-looking rock, he brought it back and gave it to a white person he had come across. He was one of the white trappers in that area. He gave it to him and asked him what it was.

Later on, Victor Beyonnie's father asked this man to check into what type of rock it was and to let him know. After he gave it to this person, he then travelled with this rock back up the Mackenzie River during the next spring. Shortly after that, the man asked to exchange this by giving Victor Beyonnie's father one bag of flour, three pounds of lard, and baking powder. He did this three times over a period of time. He wasn't sure whether or not that was in exchange for the piece of rock he had given to this man.

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I just wanted to give you a brief overview of what happened back then. I want to say that this report we produced contains the words of the people of Deline. This person sitting next to us facilitated in putting this together, but these are our words. You can pass out some of these reports to the people here.

The Chairman: We thank Mr. Baton very much for his words and for informing us with his memory about what happened and the events that took place in his community. We are going to study the report.

Now, if he's agreeable, we would like to have an opportunity for the members of this committee to ask questions in the next half-hour.

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: Mr. Chair, perhaps in the interest of time and since the members have not had an opportunity to read the document, I could provide a bit of context for Mr. Baton's statement. I know you're not familiar with Great Bear Lake, I know you're not familiar with the people, and I know you have not been briefed on the issue at hand. So if you'll give me an opportunity, I would like to make a statement myself. I'd like to give an opportunity to the elder to be questioned as well, but I'd like to provide you with a little bit of context.

Port Radium on Great Bear Lake was the place where the first uranium mine in the world was built. There was a tribe that lived on Great Bear Lake at that time, to which Mr. Baton was referring. They found a piece of rock and gave it to this white man who was living with them.

The context is that prior to 1950 there was no one village per se. People lived around the lake. This is the fifth-largest lake in Canada and the ninth-largest lake in the world. There was only one tribe that lived around the lake. Every family had traditional hunting areas on a rotational basis. This was sustainable development over thousands of years.

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There are a lot of legends around when they first encountered this piece of rock. Gilbert LaBine came up to Great Bear Lake and started to look at the seriousness of developing radium and uranium. Then there was development of the mine over the years.

There was only one industrial development, and only one tribe. You cannot confuse the direct connection between the two. It's not like the southern Great Lakes, where there are all kinds of different chemicals around the lake, so you can confuse it.

The mine came in there in the 1930s, and then with the war effort it went from a radium mine to a uranium mine. For the British, Canadian, and U.S. governments, Canada went in there and took over. It assumed all responsibility for mining uranium. This was in the late 1930s and early 1940s.

In Deline, there are only 700 people now. This is fairly well documented. The men of the tribe were used as workers to carry hundred-pound bags of radioactive material. They put them on barges that crossed the lake over long distances. They slept on the bags. There were a whole series of transport points where they did that.

One of the key transport points is five kilometres from where the village exists right now. People started moving into the village. “Deline” means “where the water flows”, because there's a river that flows right out of Great Bear Lake. They lived five kilometres across from the main transport point.

When the men moved around to carry the ore, they brought their families with them, as they have done for thousands of years. When the men came home in the evening with dust in their hair and on their clothing, they brought it into their homes.

In the 1970s the men started to die.

We are talking about a village in crisis here. We're talking about whether the one and only tribe on Great Bear Lake is going to survive. We're talking about cultural diversity. We're talking about biological diversity.

We just attended another funeral last week. Another man has died. The scary thing is that he's from my generation. Most of those of Paul's generation and my father's generation who carried ore and slept and breathed in the dust have died very agonizing cancer deaths. These deaths ranged from bone cancer to lung cancer to every kind of illness that medical knowledge now relates to radiation poisoning.

There are few things that we know. The village is extremely worried. This is what Paul is telling you. They are living with the uncertainty of what is in their food source. They are living with the uncertainty of the fact that the Eldorado Mine, which was a crown corporation, has dumped 1.7 million tonnes of radioactive material into Great Bear Lake. The leaching is continuing, as we just found out recently.

The implications of that are phenomenal for a tribe that's trying to survive. The village is a village of widows. Half of the 700 people are children. A quarter of them are women. The oldest people.... Joe Blondin is 53 years old, and he's considered to be an elder.

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This is a society that had, as the key component of survival, the father, the uncle, and the grandfather, who played major parts in the responsibility for and the survival of the tribe. The uncle provided “slap the hand” behavioural correction. The grandfather passed down the spiritual and cultural knowledge to protect the relationship between the father and son so that the son could assume the responsibility for the survival of the society.

So what we're looking at is a big black hole of cultural genocide in a culture that has looked after the land and waters of one of Canada's and the world's biggest lakes.

That's the context of the situation. We're not talking about a private corporation here, we're talking about a crown corporation. That's the reason for Mr. Baton's statement that as long as the river flows, the grass grows, and the sun does not go backwards, the Government of Canada is responsible, and so are all Canadians.

I'd like to speak again from my own perspective as to how this can be dealt with. You will read the story of the people in here. I'm going to give the other two people an opportunity to have a say, but I do agree that you should question Mr. Baton on his statement.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you. It certainly is very helpful that you gave us that context.

Perhaps without delay we should start with Mr. Gilmour, as is customary.

Mr. Bill Gilmour: Welcome, and thank you for appearing before us.

Because this goes over a number of government departments, including Indian Affairs, Health, and Natural Resources, to name a few, what has been the response to date from government? What has been the timeframe since you brought this issue forward?

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: Because we haven't given you our full presentation yet, I thought the questioning was for Mr. Baton's statement. I'd be perfectly happy to answer that after the other people have spoken. We met with the ministers yesterday.

Mr. Bill Gilmour: What about the time?

The Chairman: Madam Kraft Sloan.

Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan: I realize that we don't have a lot of time, but I think that things have to be done in an appropriate manner. I have a question for Elder Baton, depending on what the opposition—

The Chairman: There are quite a number of people. What do you propose to do, Ms. Gilday?

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: Initially, I thought we had two hours, which is why we took so much time to speak at the beginning. Perhaps we should give Gina and Joe an opportunity to have something to say, and then we can open questions, starting with Mr. Gilmour's question.

The Chairman: All right, go ahead. Could you perhaps keep your statements fairly short?

Mr. Joe Blondin Jr. (Community Delegate, Dene Community of Deline): My name's Joe Blondin Jr. I'm here for the public and the affairs of community. What they said in this book is the truth. There are 14 points. These are our words.

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I was raised around Echo Bay since I was a little boy, and I've seen everything, all the garbage being put in the water, tailings and all that poison being put in the water. This is why we are here.

This house is where the power lies, authority and everything, and this is where decisions are made. I told my daughter and my son, tomorrow I talk to the government. They gave me a big hug. Good luck, they told me.

My dad and mom died of cancer. My brother George Blondin, his sons and wife died of cancer. My colleagues here mentioned all the people who die of cancer. They worked on this about a year. Seven people got affected: we lost five people to cancer, and now two more, and we have another elder who has been cut up in Edmonton or Yellowknife, wherever he is, and we don't know how long that gentleman's going to live. So this is very, very important. It's land, water, human beings, animals, flora and fauna we're talking about here.

We were very happy yesterday. That many years we've been working together, and I mentioned that elder here, Paul Baton, was very happy yesterday with what the minister said. He said we'll work together. Oh boy, that made us feel very good. So we're here, and this is a very good starting point. So thank you very much for listening to us. Thank you very much for your time.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Blondin.

Would you like to add something?

Ms. Gina Bayha (Community Delegate, Dene Community of Deline): In light of what's been presented so far, I want to add that this story has been around, as Paul has said, over the last 30 years. When the people in that community started noticing these drastic changes in the health of the people, back then in the 1970s their diet had never changed.

Today there's a lot of confusion; there are a lot of affiliations. When outsiders are told there are a lot of cancer rates and other illnesses in the community, there's always reference to lifestyle changes, and so on. But when the people started dying, that was in the 1970s and these were healthy aboriginal men.

As Paul has said, it was normal for people to live 90 or 100 years, and they would still be working. They would still be providing for their families. They continually travelled, and they were very healthy. There were times when, because the people were so old and had become a burden to the tribes, which were nomadic, they had to leave them behind and let them die on their own, because they lived until they were very old. That was customary back then; it was normal.

When the men started dying in the 1970s, that was when the people noticed that something was happening that was not normal. And again, the lifestyle was still the same back then, and so was their diet, and so on. So the people then knew that something else was happening to the tribe, above and beyond all the other changes.

They told us stories about their many attempts to try to bring this issue to the front, through many means that they felt were available to them. That was through the local governments and through the different representatives who could assist them in the Departments of Health, Environment, and also Indian Affairs.

Many times we've seen some of the attempts they've made never really go very far. They were always told, well, there's nothing there to be concerned about; these things could not cause.... They basically minimized that there was really anything to worry about.

As Paul said before we came, we have been telling our stories for the last 30 years. It's time for us to bring it to the front and have the Canadian people and the Canadian public listen to our side of the story, and hopefully they will help us bring it to the front so that something can be done about it.

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I think he has also mentioned one of the most important elements in light of what's happening today—just to brief you a little bit about the situation now in Deline, and I think Cindy has talked about it, where there are only about 700 people, and half of them are children.

It's very seldom that you will see this, one of the very last traditional communities where everybody still speaks Slavey. We have a very traditional society where subsistence traditional living is still happening in the community. But the majority of the people there are women and children. We have a very difficult time economically right now, because we don't have as many men in the community. The men who used to provide for their families are no longer there, so the very few men who are there now are really overworked. We still have a lot of sharing in our culture, and we continue to do that. That's how we're able to continue to feed our widows and the children who are now in the communities.

One of the most important things—and I know Paul has made some reference to it earlier—is our relationship to the land, because we need it for our survival and our continuing existence. Our whole cultural identity and our spirituality rests with the relationship we have with the land. This is the teaching that has been passed on by the elders, that has been passed on by our past prophets, our spiritual prophets, and it is so important. That has now been passed on to the younger people.

But now the people in our communities are questioning that relationship, because of the issue of possible contamination. Because of that question, it's very critical; this is what our identity and our spirituality rest on, that relationship to the land, to the water, the environment and the animals.

I think our visit here, as Paul has said, is the first time we've told our story at this level, and we're hoping something will come of it.

Thank you.

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: Thank you very much.

I don't know how much more you want to hear from us, but if you would like to add anything, Murray, a few points...then we can take questions.

Mr. Murray Klippenstein (Adviser, Dene Community of Deline): Thank you, Cindy.

Mr. Chairman, as someone from southern Ontario who has visited the community and has been honoured to hear the elders and the widows speak in their community hall and hour after hour tell the story that is in this book, and who now sees the delegation here to address you, thousands of kilometres away from their homes, I can only ask you to listen very carefully to them and to read the words they have spoken in hours of personal interviews and in community meetings and hear their request for your assistance.

In response to a question from the member, and as Joe Blondin said, they were privileged to meet with three ministers yesterday afternoon and to tell their story. And perhaps it's fair to say the ministers were privileged to hear their story. There were very forceful expressions of sympathy and concern from the ministers and expressions of a desire to work in partnership. I think you've heard elder Blondin say how much this means to him and to the delegation as they go home.

I would ask that you remember that, and ask for your help so that those promises and expressions of concern bear fruit, because, quite frankly, it is not clear whether they ever will. It is a promising start, but the delegation has heard many times expressions of possible help that have come to nought, and for some members of the community there are not too many years left to see whether that support will ever come through.

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Although it is very wonderful to hear the ministers yesterday express sympathy and support, I can only say it is necessary to note that at the same time as the ministers were meeting, a backgrounder on behalf of the federal government was handed out—unfortunately, I don't have copies for you—to the media during and after the meeting. It said, among other things, that “Studies of the Port Radium site in 1981, 1984, 1985, 1994, and 1995 indicated no significant environmental or health risks.” This would be very encouraging to the community, if it were true.

We have given you a record. Perhaps you can at some point in your leisure look at paragraph 132, which points out that 15 or 14 years ago a study found that the tailings from the Port Radium uranium and radium site were leaking radioactive materials into Great Bear Lake at a level exceeding Environment Canada's drinking water standards and that the water off the mine site contained radioactive materials exceeding Environment Canada's drinking guidelines.

The point is not that there is a crystal-clear picture of the contamination of Great Bear Lake, because there isn't, but you will find again and again in this report that the Dene have requested further information and further clarity so they can understand whether there is a risk and how severe it is to their present health, not only for the people who have passed on but for the children.

The point is, if the Government of Canada in a press release handed out during a ministers' meeting yesterday is saying there is no environmental or health risk, when Environment Canada's guidelines are being exceeded in Great Bear Lake, you can perhaps forgive the community members if they still worry about the credibility of the information they are getting.

When they request, as they do in this report, that independent experts of their own be provided to them, their request is a very serious one for them. I think when you read the words they have put in here for assistance and independent experts, perhaps you will support them in that request to the extent you are able.

Finally, perhaps you can also understand their concerns if you have occasion to look at a report entitled The Canadian Arctic Contaminants Assessment Report, from the Northern Contaminants Program, published last year by the federal government, which details the overall study from 1991 to 1997 of contaminants in northern Canada, including radioactive materials. You will find no discussion of the Port Radium mine nor of the contamination of Great Bear Lake and of the concerns you've heard today. There is no discussion of those issues, of 1.7 million tonnes of radioactive materials in Great Bear Lake and on its shores. You will understand their concern, perhaps, and understand their request that you support the beginnings made by the ministers yesterday.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Klippenstein.

Considering the keen interest of members in the room, their desire to pose questions and the limited time, I wonder whether we should not break away from the customary practice and have each member put questions to you and you will attempt to answer them once they have all asked their questions. If not, there will be other ways for you to come back to the members with your answers in case we are interrupted, because the list is very long and if every one of them were to be treated one by one we would not give them all a chance to put their questions and you wouldn't have the opportunity to hear them. Is that all right with you?

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: That's fine.

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The Chairman: In that case, if it is also all right with the members of the committee, I will follow the usual pattern. All of them are indicating.... I also welcome a colleague from the committee on health, Mr. Earle, who has kindly joined us. We have invited members of his committee and also of the natural resources committee.

I will go around the table and ask you to put your questions on record, and then gradually we will attempt to make the best use of time.

Mr. Gilmour, would you like to add something to your other question?

Mr. Bill Gilmour: Okay, very briefly. I'll keep it short because of time.

Thank you for the comments on the ministers. That was my question: had you met with them? You met with three of them.

To move on, I support the idea of independent assessment. I strongly support it. You've mentioned the drinking water, but there are the fish in the lake, the caribou, berries in the ground, and so on. Have there been studies in those areas to date? If not, were you given assurances that those studies would take place?

I'll keep it short so we can move around.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Gilmour. Everybody will appreciate the brevity.

Mr. Laliberte, would you like to ask your questions?

Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): I think I'd like to extend our condolences to your family members and the community's loss. You have suffered a tragedy here because of a nuclear age at the time of its birth and the uncertainty of its impacts. Now the proof is starting to come out.

The independent study and the 14 points you raised are all well-intentioned. You're looking at the global responsibility, the grief and the burden that you feel with the responsibility of the creation of the bombs, future generations and the impacts.... All that is well-intentioned, and I want to state that I fully support your view and commend you for the community's contribution in giving us guidance, because since a federal government and a crown corporation created this, a major risk was created. Following risk, there is responsibility, and that's what you're asking for, that the responsibility be respected and that the communication of the Dene....

[Editor's Note: Mr. Laliberte speaks in his native language]

We have to understand it in the languages of our people, because that is the source of knowledge and knowing, and if that's translated and understood at the community level, then people can address the issues. I think that's what you're also asking for, that people be forward and honest. If you have an independent body to clarify this, then you'll be reassured about the uncertainties in the messages you've been receiving from government departments trying to hide the uncertainty. It can be clarified if somebody else gives you an opinion or an analysis.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Laliberte.

Mr. Herron, do you have questions?

Mr. John Herron: I have a couple of comments. Initially, I'd like to express remorse that we have to deal with this kind of thing as elected officials. To some degree I'm embarrassed that we have to deal with this sort of thing.

I have a question with respect to your elder. When they were carrying the uranium sacks, the non-native individuals who were there, it was commented in the report that I read here that they would shower after work and that sort of thing. Did your elder ever wonder why some of those actions were taking place? Did he ever have any suspicion that there were some concerns at that time?

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Secondly, you touched on a point—I think you were going to make a presentation—about how we deal with this situation of responsibility in terms of the short term, to make you feel that your communities are safer. Ultimately, in the long term, are there some comments in terms of where we have to go?

Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our delegation for being here today. The story they've told is certainly a tragic one, and I think it's incumbent upon the government to take responsibility for it.

My first question relates to whether the delegation has any comments to offer as to why it has taken so long—over 55 years—since this process began. I'm sure in the 1970s the trends were becoming fairly clear in terms of the death rate within the community. Obviously, federal studies were taking place in the 1980s, but why has it taken so long to get any action on this?

The other question I have.... I understand there have been some decontamination efforts recently within the community and the mistakes of the past seem to be repeated as far as the lack of protective clothing is concerned. I would be interested in knowing what the status of that situation is.

I would also be interested in knowing if any federal officials at the departmental level have had an opportunity to review the documents you've provided and whether or not they have any preliminary comments.

I would also be interested in knowing when the most recent tests were done as far as safety of food and water and of the land itself.

As a final question, have members of the community had an opportunity...? I understand the Navajos in the southwestern United States have had similar problems. Have you had an opportunity to speak with representatives of the Navajos to find out how their government responded and what their plan of attack was in terms of getting some action on the matter?

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Pratt. Mr. Knutson.

Mr. Gar Knutson: Like Mr. Laliberte, I express my condolences for the tragedy as well. I don't have a question but more of a comment.

If after some period you feel that the government is not dealing with you in good faith and that they're dragging their feet or becoming inattentive, I would invite you to write the committee members. The Liberals can raise the issue within caucus and the opposition can raise it within question period. I wouldn't mind hearing your comments briefly as to whether you are satisfied, as of today, that you have the government's attention and you think they are dealing with you in good faith.

The Chairman: Thank you. Ms. Carroll.

Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the Dene people for travelling such a very long distance to come and speak with us. I do appreciate your bringing us the stories. It has taken considerable courage on your part, and I respect you greatly for that.

I think the majority of questions I might have had have now been put forward. I look forward to your response.

The Chairman: Thank you. Madam Kraft Sloan.

Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan: Thank you.

Elder Baton, we are deeply honoured to have you here today. I became overwhelmed when I heard your words and what you were telling us. I also want to thank the other members of your delegation for being here.

I do have a question that I would like to ask you. One of the things I am deeply concerned about is the health of our children and how environmental contaminants affect our children. From some of the work that I've done as a parliamentarian, I have come into more and more knowledge of the terrible effects of environmental contaminants on the people of the north, in particular on the health of your children.

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Could you tell us what your children have told you, as an elder, about their concerns, about how they feel about this? Perhaps you could talk a little bit about some of their health issues as well. I would appreciate it.

I have a second question that anyone on the delegation may care to respond to. It's about the Canadian Arctic contaminants report and whether any members of your community were consulted when this report was being put together.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Madam Kraft Sloan.

Mr. Jordan, please.

Mr. Joe Jordan: I want to share my colleagues' expressions of regret and wish your families well. I want to sort of apologize for that situation. As Mr. Laliberte so readily defined it, it is a tragedy.

I want to congratulate you on this document. This particular issue is one we're confronted with a lot on this committee. It is this sort of ridiculous notion that you can balance economy and environment, that somehow you can play that game, that you can do risk analysis and make some decisions and not sort of incorporate environmentalism and sustainability into everything you do. It seems to me—I've been at this job a year—that this seems to be the constant wall I hit. This issue we have been hearing about today clearly demonstrates the folly of that notion.

In your analysis and your request for response, I think the way it's presented—again, Mr. Laliberte touched on this—reinforces the credibility of your argument. You're asking for solutions that are going to improve the quality of life of your people in the future. Certainly in some cases it's material, but you're also emphasizing a lot of the spiritual healing that needs to take place.

It kind of puts me in mind of Solomon's baby. I mean, you have not chosen to divide it. You've reinforced your stewardship values in the way it's presented. I want to congratulate you and also the researcher, because I think that's been captured in there and it's a very powerful way of presenting that information.

I do have one question for the elder, because I think his memory of the actual events is important. Were there instances or was there talk among the fisher people and the hunters? Were the animals changing too? Were there tumors on the caribou? Were there things on the fish that might have indicated that they were going through the same transformations as the people were?

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Earle, followed by the chair.

Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I should clarify that I'm a member of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, and I do thank you for the opportunity of joining your committee to pursue this very important topic.

I also want to add my condolences to the community for the tragic loss they have suffered as a result of this tragedy. I want to commend you for coming forth and telling your story. It certainly must be a very painful one to tell, yet a very necessary one.

I understand that you did meet with three ministers yesterday. What do you expect to come from that meeting? What are you hoping to see come forth in a very practical way as a result of that meeting?

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Earle.

To conclude, we are indebted to the CBC—at least I am indebted to the CBC Radio—for becoming acquainted with your people, your village, and the history of what has happened over the last 50 years. I understand also from your paper that there was a national CBC news TV program entitled The Village of Widows, which I suppose is available if we request it.

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In your document there is a motion by the Assembly of First Nations dated November 3, 1997, which is quite extensive. Could you let us know what has happened since that resolution was passed in Quebec City last November? It was signed by the national chief, Phil Fontaine. It was moved by Grand Chief Rod Bushie of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, and it was seconded by Chief John Dantouze.

The second question has to do with the item in your document that relates to the medical officer of health of the Northwest Territories. It's item 226. It has to do with the 14 Dene men who worked in the mining, milling, or transportation of radium and uranium and who are listed on the council registry of the Northwest Territories. The question is whether the same symptoms were identified and whether the type of cancer that led to their deaths was of the same nature, so to speak, such as leukemia, bone cancer, or other forms. In other words, can any conclusions be drawn from the medical documentation?

If you would like to now start to answer questions, by all means do so. We are still available to you until the bells start ringing.

Ms Cindy Kenny Gilday: Should I start at the beginning? No, I won't start at the beginning. I'm going to answer what I feel is the most critical question facing Canadians and us.

This is 67 years of history that is still happening with the tribe of Deline. People are suffering and dying at a rate such that, if this carries on.... Within the year of research I have done with the community, there have been seven cancer cases. For a small village, that's pretty serious. If it goes on for another year at that rate, will the Dene tribe on Great Bear Lake survive?

Dr. David Schindler, who's at the University of Alberta, is one of the foremost experts in great lakes studies. He wonders why there is no data on Great Bear Lake, the ninth-largest lake in the world. That report confirms it. What are we hiding here?

Here's the question facing me. I've gone back through a resolution. In the last resolution at the Dene national level I found the people in Deline begging to have this question of uranium contamination and the human health impact asked earlier, when the men started to die in the late 1970s. Resolution 1982 at the Dene national level is when it was first systematically recorded. That's a long time to be asking for something that's the responsibility of the Canadian government to do on a common sense level.

Because this tribe is so isolated, they only function in Slavey and they don't have access to the regular things that all Canadians take for granted. They've been completely ignored. Their cries for help have been ignored.

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Only last year, a year ago, they came to me with two reports. One was done in 1993, the year they signed their land claims with the Government of Canada. There was also a small report on the ex-military site called Sawmill Bay. They asked me to look at these reports to see whether they answered their questions.

I looked at the reports. I was completely appalled. The people were not asked in any way to be involved. The Northwest Territories scientific guidelines and the Canadian scientific guidelines called for local involvement in any research being done that impacts them. This was not respected in these reports. It did not answer the question of whether it impacts their lives. So that's where we took it from.

I had a meeting with the community, and I started running around Canada like crazy trying to recruit people who were interested. This was all on a volunteer basis, because these people had no access to funds for independent opinions on anything. They were told not to worry. They were told that this was nothing to worry about without knowing what was there.

We recruited people like Andrew Orkin and Murray Klippenstein, who out of the goodness of their hearts gave their time to us, as lawyers, to examine this. We recruited people from universities to dig into the archives as well, and medical doctors who were interested in this issue.

Part of the reason for this is the oral tradition. Only now does the Constitution of Canada allow oral traditions to be accepted in the court. Orally, they have been asking the Government of Canada for a meaningful investigation into this issue since the late 1970s. The written documentation starts in 1982, but they keep bearing witness orally, as they know how. Everybody dismisses them and their concerns.

Mr. Chair, you said you heard this on CBC radio. David McLauchlin did a story. He spent a lot of time with our people to do this story. When that was aired, the chief medical officer of the Northwest Territories said on national radio that they're no different from those of any other village; the cancer rate in the north is high. That has been the typical response, without investigating what it is the people are talking about.

I gave up my time and went without money. A lot of Canadians have given of their time. The band has gone into deficit to produce this report so that the government will listen.

Finally, we got a hearing yesterday with the help of the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Mr. Rock came as well. We have a health crisis situation here, and we're begging for help.

The mandate of this group is around these 14 items. We have gone over them again and again in community meetings, even as late as two nights ago. These people went back to the community and asked whether this was what they wanted. They said yes.

This has been done in Slavey many, many times without the resources. We've been asking for immediate assistance since the beginning of April. We submitted a budget to the Department of Indian Affairs to help us, because this requires a lot of money to put together. I don't think I can go on any longer on a voluntary basis.

There were a lot of sympathetic ears in the room yesterday among the ministers. And if you ask me what I am going home with, I will tell you that I'm going home with a sympathetic ear from the ministers. I'm going home with a promise that the officials will discuss this issue, the 14 items we brought to the table.

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The second item in there is a comprehensive health, social, and environmental assessment. We need independent opinions now. We can no longer rely on government experts, because they have lied to the community for too long. We need the resources to do that well. I think the ministers have recognized that in saying we need a fact-finder with a table and the resources for the Dene to come to that table in a meaningful way.

I'm taking that promise back with the hope that the federal officials will realize that this has taken a lot of time and money. I think the past and future resourcing of our efforts is in the interests of all Canadians.

So I'm putting a lot of hope in something, but I don't know what's going to come up. I can say I'm going home with a cautious hope in my bag. How it will develop is yet to be seen. Our two technical people are going to meet with federal officials. I'm going to be listening in on it. I hope they will address the 14 points in here very seriously and with action. If they don't, I will take your offer very seriously and I'll let you know what has come out of the ongoing discussions. I feel like we've only made the first bus stop on a long journey, and I'm hoping that you will continue to listen with an open heart.

I want to table a statement that we gave to the ministers yesterday in terms of what we want in a small way to begin the discussion on the 14 points.

I've taken note of all your questions, and you will get answers in a written form.

Thank you very much.

The Chairman: In the remaining time, would you like to give the committee the benefit of your comments on some of the 14 points? Don't speak on all of them, but choose those that you think are the most urgent.

Mr. Herron.

Mr. John Herron: I would like to make a recommendation. This is for the clerk. Could you provide the witnesses with a copy of the blues so they have a more comprehensive knowledge of our meeting? It's an actual transcript of the questions, so it will enhance your notes.

The Chairman: That will be done, Mr. Herron. Thank you.

Mrs. Kraft Sloan.

Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan: Because this hearing is being televised, if the clerk could make a video copy as well, that would be useful for the community.

The Chairman: All right, that will be done.

Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: As we perhaps have just a few minutes, I just wanted for the record to submit the statement that we gave the ministers yesterday. I'll ask Gina to do this, because she made the statement. I think it's really important for the record, because we're carrying the community's message to you who are responsible for Canada, the environment, the long-term sustainability of the environment, the people in it, and everything else that lives in it.

The Chairman: Please go ahead.

Ms. Gina Bayha: We are here to address your mandate from the community of Deline to address the 14 points that we presented to the meeting with the ministers yesterday.

Some of the ideas from the ministers from that meeting, such as appointing an independent investigator to look into the matter, are interesting and can be considered further in the overall context of the 14 points. However, we would like a representative appointed by the ministers and acceptable to us to sit at a table with adequate resources to discuss with us a process to seriously and comprehensively address the 14 points. Finally, we need crisis assistance now in accordance with the budget we submitted at the beginning of April 1998.

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Ms. Cindy Kenny Gilday: I would really like to give the members a chance to read this document and to reflect on it when you're asking questions on the fourteen points, because that context is important in terms of what we're asking for. I'd be happy to respond in written form as well.

Now I'd like the elder to make a statement, because I know the time is up.

Mr. Paul Baton (Interpretation): As I said at the ministers' meeting yesterday, I am very concerned that we go home with a plan of action in terms of what is going to be done with our request, the request we presented to the government yesterday regarding the 14 points. In addressing those propositions, how are they going to be dealing with them?

So far we've had a response from the ministers to say that they are listening and are sympathetic, but we have yet to see what they will do about it seriously. With that hope, I am going to go back to the community. I am hoping that something concrete will come of this.

I want to thank the people for giving us an opportunity to speak and to tell our story.

One of the teachings that has been passed on to me is that when you're sitting in a room with people, having a dialogue, and you know that you've been heard and that someone is listening, and then you in turn give your story and then you listen to the other side, that is difficult to achieve, but I feel we have achieved it in this visit. The teachings have said that would be something that's very privileged and is good.

I want to thank the members for listening and for acknowledging our presentation. Thank you.

The Chairman: You can assure the elder that every member of the committee has listened very carefully this morning, and that it is, I'm sure, the unanimous wish of this committee to follow up on your presentations yesterday by way of a letter to the minister, indicating our interest and our hope that this matter will be examined and followed up with speed, as you indicated yesterday when you met with the minister. As I mentioned, that will be done in a few days by way of a letter emanating from this particular meeting.

We are also very grateful for the fact that you came here and for the opportunity you have given us to understand the values, the preoccupations, and the tragic history of your community.

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We would like you to go back to the village and to transmit to your people the fact that we appreciate very much the long travel you have undertaken to bring us up to date on this issue and to assure them that within the limited powers of this committee we will do the utmost to follow up your representations, as you said, on behalf of all Canadians, because we share your beliefs and your values and we would like to demonstrate to you that the system of government works and works well.

The bells are ringing. As you know, they are calling us for a vote, so we will now have to adjourn.

We wish the elder and all of you a safe journey back to your village.

Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Could we continue to sit in camera for three minutes, once the witnesses are be gone?

[English]

The Chairman: Yes.

A voice: Mr. Laliberte?

The Chairman: Mr. Herron, can you stay for a moment?

[Translation]

We have only seven or eight minutes. Do you want to begin?

[English]

Mr. Charbonneau.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: We are sitting in camera now, aren't we?

[English]

The Chairman: This committee decides, then, by unanimous consent, that we sit behind closed doors for a communication with one member.

[Proceedings continue in camera]