CHER Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, June 11, 1998

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)): I would like to declare open the meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we will continue our consideration of a Canadian cultural policy.

[Translation]

I call to order the meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, which is continuing its examination of Canadian culture.

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[English]

We are especially privileged today to have with us very eminent Canadians from the world of culture and the arts, and I would like to give a special welcome to Dr. Shirley Thomson, who was recently appointed director of the Canada Council for the Arts. Dr. Thomson's reputation need not be made; it's well known to all of us. She's been one of the eminent people in the field of culture and the arts, a leader and trailblazer in Canada, and we're very proud to have her with us today.

I would also like to welcome Mr. François Colbert, ancien vice-président et conseiller spécial; and Mrs. Joanne Morrow, director of the arts division, both from the Canada Council for the Arts as well.

[Translation]

From the National Arts Centre, we welcome Mr. John Cripton, Director and CEO;

[English]

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley, chair of the board of trustees; and Mr. Brian Macdonald, senior artistic adviser.

We would like to open the meeting by asking the Canada Council for the Arts to start off. Could we maybe have presentations altogether of about half an hour between the two or you, or 35 minutes, or at most 40 minutes, so there is time for questions by the members?

Do you want to lead off, Dr. Thomson?

Dr. Shirley Thomson (Director, Canada Council for the Arts): I would ask my vice-chair to begin. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Of course, Mr. Colbert.

Mr. François Colbert (Former Vice-Chair and Special Advisor, Canada Council for the Arts): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. It's a great pleasure for us to be with you here this morning in order to tell you who we are and to discuss some major arts issues.

Jean-Louis Roux, the new Chair of the council, unfortunately cannot be with us here this morning, and he asked me to replace him. I am accompanied, as you said, by Ms. Thomson, the Director, and Ms. Morrow, our Arts Division Director. We are pleased to share this hearing and the discussion which will follow our presentations, with the National Arts Centre.

The last time the council appeared before the standing committee goes back to November, 1995. So we're happy to bring you up to date on everything that's happened since then.

We have numerous reasons to be grateful right now. Last year, the council celebrated its 40^th anniversary, having been founded in 1957. Hundreds of cultural undertakings in Canada marked this important anniversary by dedicating an evening or an event to the council. The culmination of this memorable year was a celebration on Parliament Hill in March, 1997, to which many distinguished Canadian artists were invited, as well as the first Vice-Chair of the council, Father Georges-Henri Lévesque.

[English]

In October 1997, the government, as promised, approved additional funding of $25 million a year to the council for five years, starting in 1997-98. This was particularly welcome news in light of the restructuring and downsizing the council had undertaken following the demands of program review as of 1995. The council reduced its administrative costs by almost 50%, while maintaining the budgets of its granting program.

We are now well positioned to administer cautiously and effectively these new moneys and are better able to assist artists and arts organizations after years of austerity. The impact of new funding will be felt in many communities, large and small, throughout Canada.

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Last week, the Minister of Canadian Heritage confirmed an additional $10 million for the council over three years to produce works of art to mark the millennium. Our artists will enrich the millennium experience in a truly memorable way for all of us, young and old, by leaving a lasting legacy in our communities of books, music, plays, paintings, films, and of course art on the Internet.

We thank the government for its vision in recognizing the contribution that artists can make to this once-in-a-lifetime celebration.

[Translation]

I'm now going to ask Ms. Thomson to talk to you about the issues you are looking at and the council's new directions.

Ms. Shirley Thomson: Thank you, François.

[English]

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your kind words. It's indeed a pleasure for me to be with this committee again this morning. We have met before, when I was director of the National Gallery of Canada, and I'm delighted to see some of you again today as director of the Canada Council for the Arts.

I took up my duties early this year, and it's a privilege to be working with a distinguished board and an excellent professional staff and to cooperate with fellow agencies, such as the National Arts Centre.

This is indeed a good-news year for the Canada Council, as Professor Colbert has just underlined, with respect to the new funds approved by the Canadian government. The federal government's role in building Canada's artistic infrastructure is invaluable. All Canadians will benefit in the long term from this investment in our most creative and innovative people and enterprises.

In our new knowledge-based society, the arts are key to the non-linear thinking needed in business and science. Educators and researchers tell us that children who participate in the arts early in life develop multiple intelligences and are better equipped to excel in other fields, such as science and mathematics. To quote Peter Simon, president of the Royal Conservatory of Music, “If you really want literacy and numeracy, you have to have the arts”.

[Translation]

At a time in their history when they wish to reaffirm the many things they value, Canadians realize that our artists are the ones who provide us with the stories and pictures that reflect our truly Canadian experiences. By respecting and supporting Canadian culture in all regions and all territories, for instance, by helping the Théâtre populaire d'Acadie tour New Brunswick, Quebec and Ontario, or by helping the Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal to show paintings by Molinari in Guelph, Regina, Windsor and Halifax, the council is helping Canadians understand one another and is establishing strong cultural links across a country as vast and diversified as Canada.

[English]

The Canada Council assists theatres, music and dance organizations, public art galleries, and publishers in every province on the basis of their artistic merit. These organizations are centrepieces in their communities and are an important source of local, regional, and national pride.

Our citizens deserve no less than this flourishing arts sector, whether it is expressed through the Calgary Opera, Kamloops Symphony, l'Orchestre symphonique du Saguenay-Lac St-Jean, Saskatoon's Mendel Art Gallery, or the Mermaid Theatre of Nova Scotia.

The broad mandate given to the council by the visionaries who created it in 1957 is to foster and promote the study and enjoyment of, and production of works in, the arts. For 40 years, the council has remained true to its mission to support excellence wherever it was to be found.

The challenge this council faces now as we approach a new millennium remains the same: to ensure that its programs truly reflect the diversity and richness of Canada's evolving artistic community, that the best work of Canadian artists continues to be recognized by the council, and that as many Canadians as possible have the opportunity to enjoy it.

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In this task, we are guided by the expertise of artists and art professionals from across the country who through the council's system of national peer-assessment committees evaluate applications and make recommendations to the council's board for funding.

This investment over 40 years in our most talented and gifted people has paid handsome dividends. Let me cite a few. For instance, look at the brilliant international careers of writers Margaret Atwood; Carol Shields, who recently won Britain's richest literary award, the Orange Prize; Timothy Findley; Rohinton Mistry; Michel Tremblay; and Anne Hébert. All these people received early boosts through Canada Council grants.

The same can be said for dancers like Karen Kain, theatre director Robert Lepage, and choreographer Marie Chouinard.

This year, Atom Egoyan, another council alumnus, was nominated for two Academy Awards for his film, The Sweet Hereafter. Last year, The English Patient, based on Michael Ondaajte's novel, which was written with the help of a Canada Council grant, received an Oscar for the best film.

So the council's programs support a wide range of arts organizations like ballet companies, symphony orchestras, and opera companies. But it also has funded Loreena McKennitt, Michel Lemieux, Paul Brodie, Edith Butler, the Rankin Family, and that much-beloved star, Rita MacNeil, early in their careers.

The council will continue to cast its net widely to encourage new voices. This summer, a dozen jazz groups will showcase their work at festivals across the country as they tour between Victoria, Vancouver, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Toronto, Quebec City, and Halifax.

The council's programs have responded to artists' needs as they emerge. Its grants and programs recognize the evolving importance of first peoples artists and artists of diverse cultural backgrounds. Three years ago, Regina's Edward Poitras, supported by the council, was the first native artist to be presented in the world-famous Venice Biennale, where he was chosen to represent Canada at our pavilion there.

Consider last year's Governor General's literary awards. The winners included two first peoples writers, playwright Ian Ross from Winnipeg and the novelist for young people, Michel Noël, from Lévis, Quebec. Rachel Manley, from Toronto, daughter of former Jamaican Prime Minister Michael Manley, was another winner for a memoir about her family. Canadians are also familiar with writers such as Joy Kogawa, Dionne Brand—she is another Governor General's Award winner for literature—or filmmakers Clement Virgo and Deepa Mehta.

[Translation]

One of the questions your committee is asking deals with the effects of demographic development on our sector. These effects are deep, and the council is very interested in questions of cultural diversity. It has adopted an employment equity policy and created the Equity Office and First Peoples Secretariat. With advisory committees from the communities in question, we discuss issues of concern to them. Our evaluation committee membership is now more diversified. Our program guidelines are more flexible and more inclusive, and more artists from diverse cultural communities receive grants. Our goal is to make our programs accessible to professional artists from all backgrounds and all artistic practices.

[English]

You're also discussing the impact of technology on the cultural sector. This has been a subject of particular interest of mine for some time. In April of this year, I was a member of the Canadian delegation led by Minister Copps at Stockholm for UNESCO's international conference on cultural policy. I talked about culture and new-media technologies. I stressed the importance of content and the artist's role in showing us how these impressive tools might enrich our lives.

By their nature, the media arts tend to be on the cutting edge of contemporary expression. Artists in the media are not only creators of works of art but they're also leaders who show us alternative visions for the social and cultural use of the newest communications media.

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The Canada Council was a pioneer, establishing in 1984 a separate media arts section to assist artists working with film, video, audio, and computer-specific production. The continuous and rapid evolution of electronic media is revolutionizing our ways of thinking, creating, and communicating with each other. The council recognized this and has made media arts a strategic priority with increased funding.

You are also debating the question of just what role the federal government should perform in the future to support the cultural section, how indispensable is the council in maintaining and developing the arts that are so defining of our country?

At the council we hear again and again from artists, from the public, from associations that the council, as the federal arts funding agency at arm's length from government, fulfils a unique and essential role by providing a national standard of artistic achievement and recognition. Provincial and local support is important, as is private sector funding, and the council is one of the many partners in assuring a healthy and dynamic arts sector. But it is the council that, as the national agency, assures national recognition and promotes social and cultural cohesion.

At home Canadians share their pride in the achievement of their artists, and from a strong home base Canadian artists are increasingly making their mark internationally. The arts are also one of our most effective calling cards abroad. The council will continue to work with other departments and agencies to promote our achievements internationally. The challenge for all of us is to nurture and strengthen the brilliant base and infrastructure that exists already.

I would now like to turn to my colleague, Joanne Morrow, to update you on the new strategic directions. By way of introduction, the arts division administers the council's grant budget of almost $98 million. We receive about 15,000 detailed applications a year from every part of Canada and give close to 4,000 grants annually. It's a big job.

Joanne, would you like to comment on our new directions.

[Translation]

Ms. Joanne Morrow (Director of Arts Division, Canada Council for the Arts): Thank you, Ms. Thomson. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen members of the committee. I am pleased to come and bring you up to date on the council's new strategic directions, whose development was made possible in large part by new funds released by the government for the arts.

Our 1995 strategic plan refocused the council's energies on three priority areas: the creation and production of works of art, distribution and dissemination of the arts.

After examining our priorities, the council and staff agreed that the weak link in this chain was dissemination. We use the term "dissemination" in the broad sense and include in it all activities creating links between artists' works and audiences: performing arts tours, exhibitions of visual and media arts, promotion of books and periodicals, tours by writers and translation of Canadian books from one official language to the other.

[English]

We therefore made dissemination the priority and reallocated funds internally for this purpose even before receiving new resources. The new funds are enabling the council to strengthen this activity in a truly meaningful way so that more Canadians will have the opportunity to experience the work they support with their tax dollars. This year, with the combined old base funds and our new funds, the amount budgeted for dissemination of the arts and touring by the Canada Council is over $17 million. This represents a 65% increase since 1995.

A current example of our intention to strengthen the links between artists and audiences is our partnership with the National Arts Centres in the successful residency of percussion group NEXUS at the NAC over the past year.

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We are encouraging the creation and production of more Canadian works of art by both artists and arts organizations. We have developed criteria and incentives to encourage them to strengthen their commitment to Canadian creation. Some excellent initiatives have been the result, such as a new multimedia opera called Elsewhereless, written and directed by filmmaker Atom Egoyan and composed by Canadian composer Rodney Sharman. The work is being produced by Tapestry Music Theatre of Toronto and the Vancouver New Music Society, and has also been invited to the festival at the National Arts Centre this summer.

[Translation]

On receiving new funding, one of our first priorities was to reinforce our basic assistance programs for artists and artistic agencies. The groups in place were struggling to survive and, for want of funding, the council couldn't come to the aid of new talented artists. We allocated $12.3 million of new funding to our basic programs.

A new operating assistance program will be established for non-profit museums and art galleries in order to make up the serious shortfall in this area. The new funds also allow the council to supply $7 million in targeted funds to various key strategic areas, which are primarily young audiences. Consistent with its wish to make the arts more a part of Canadians' quality of life, the council will attempt to respond to the needs of young audiences. We are investing funds strategically in all creative fields so as to support the creation of new works for young people, for example, an opera for a young audience by Quebec composer Isabelle Panneton based on a script by author Anne Hébert.

[English]

First peoples arts is the second strategic direction for our new spending. The richness of the contribution of first peoples artists working in both traditional and contemporary forms is appreciated all over the world. The new funds so far have permitted additional grants to companies such as Ondinnok Theatre, a French-speaking aboriginal theatre company in Montreal, and of first-time support to a new Inuit group called Kicking Caribou Theatre Company, located in Arctic Bay, Northwest Territories. We are developing a new program to support first peoples arts initiatives on radio, such things as traditional storytelling and drama created for radio.

The third direction is cultural diversity. The new funds will help to improve access by artists of diverse cultural origins all over Canada to the existing programs of the Canada Council. A one-time outreach initiative called Quest will specifically target the generation of artists under 30 years of age and new art practices.

The fourth direction is international initiatives. The arts function in a global context. We see the need to promote the careers of Canadian artists and arts organizations internationally. We will target initiatives that will complement the cultural program of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, and particularly in small-scale artist-driven projects, artistic exchanges, residencies, co-productions between Canada and other countries or festivals in other countries, and so forth. We will encourage the reciprocity and the exchange between Canadian artists and their counterparts of excellence in foreign countries.

The next direction is arts festivals. Festivals take many forms: music, dance, theatre, interdisciplinary film, and so forth. They are powerful vehicles for bringing the arts to the public. They also provide economic benefits such as jobs and tourism. Our targeted project funding for arts festivals will complement the festivals program the Department of Canadian Heritage has already established.

[Translation]

That gives you a brief overview of our new directions. We think that the scope and effect of the federal government investment in the council's programs have been increased considerably by the new funds. A larger number of Canadians from all parts of the country can, thanks to that, take part in artistic life and appreciate the arts. Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Morrow.

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Ms. Riley, go ahead.

[Translation]

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley (Chair, National Arts Centre Board of Trustees): Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to begin by introducing the NAC team with us today:

[English]

Christopher Deacon, the managing director of the National Arts Centre Orchestra; Marti Maraden, who is adviser for English theatre, and the director of a production that opened at Stratford last week, A Man for All Seasons, which is going to be presented at the NAC in November;

[Translation]

Jean-Claude Marcus, artistic advisor for French theatre; and Michel Dozois, producer, dance and variety, whose department is presently organizing the Canada Dance Festival. We invite you constantly, and I hope you pay attention. I know that you're very busy and that you work very hard, but I want you to know us and feel welcome at the Centre. Finally, there is Denise Perrier, who is vice-president of strategy and communication;

[English]

and Brian Macdonald and John Cripton, whom I hope you know, and whom we will be introducing later.

[Translation]

We invite you to take a critical look at the Canadian cultural policy and thank you for it. We are very happy to have the opportunity to congratulate the government for the great initiatives of the past 40 years: creation of the Canada Council, followed some ten years later by the creation of the National Arts Centre, and last year, a new investment in the Arts Council.

[English]

These commitments of the federal government have been an extraordinary success story. We are living through a golden age of the arts in Canada. Artists, performers, musicians, creators, and writers have been encouraged to develop their talent, and together they've formed a talent pool that has enriched the life of each and every Canadian.

During those same years, governments also invested in building theatres, concert halls, and galleries. The National Arts Centre—they're our act—invites us to develop the performing arts, so it was an extremely fertile and exciting start-up initiative.

Today, the cultural sector is the fifth largest employer in the country. Canadian artists are celebrated everywhere, and it's such a pleasure to feel the pride one feels. Even when you're giving out the names of the accomplishments, all of us feel that excitement and pride. Canada forty years ago was a very different country—much less rich.

One of the major questions this committee is addressing is, what next? How do you build on this success story? At a time when there are considerable pressures on the government to reduce the tax burden and to reduce government activities in many sectors, the question is, is the federal government going to continue to support the arts?

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We think any reduction in the present investment and commitment would be disastrously short-sighted. There are several reasons for that. Having created the talent pool and built the facilities, it would seem wise to expand and to invest in programming, creating opportunities for programming, and expanding programming excellence.

[Translation]

I think it's absolutely tragic that a large number of our artists are better know abroad than they are in our country. Two evenings ago, on Tuesday, June 9, at the Canada Dance Festival, there was a presentation by Ginette Laurin's Montreal dance company, O Vertigo Danse. It was the Canadian premiere of a marvellous dance performed in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. Canadian artists take part in international tours and we read in the papers that they're everywhere, but they're not so well known in our own country.

[English]

Why are so many Canadian artists, the minute they hit the big time, moving to New York and London and Paris? We as a society are investing in using them as ambassadors for ourselves—and you were referring to that—and that is, I think, an extremely important commitment. But why wouldn't we go further and really think how important it would be to give them much more exposure within the country?

The arts give us an identity, a sense of giving voice to our shared cultural experience. When I was a child, and I sang O Canada, the Canada I was referring to no longer exists. Canada has become a richly diverse, pluralistic society, and I believe the arts play a huge part in giving people a sense of belonging to a collective group that we call Canada.

Governments no longer achieve sovereignty through military means or through trade barriers. Sovereignty and identity are psychological realities that are nourished by a vibrant cultural life.

We at the National Arts Centre are urging the government to articulate a commitment to protect and nurture Canadian cultural life. Protecting and nurturing means explicitly recognizing value and ensuring that Canadian cultural endeavours have access to the financial wherewithal to continue to compete with the best.

Whatever recipe is arrived at for financial support, do not cut government grants unless you facilitate donations by giving bigger tax exemptions.

Do not expect that higher ticket prices will bring higher box office revenues. They don't. Canadians are very careful about the disposable income left to them after the government tax year.

Do not let the cultural sector be weakened. That would weaken the whole country.

Canada needs heroes—stars. We need to be generating excitement around the extraordinarily talented artists we have, to make them stars. The late 1990s are dominated by an American entertainment culture machine, ever present in our lives.

[Translation]

It's the "American Empire," to quote Denys Arcand. We absolutely must meet this challenge by being heard through the voices of our artists, who are our society's prophets.

[English]

It's not time to be our modest Canadian selves, to let market forces speak and hope for the best. It is time to maximize the impact of what we've already achieved, and not only consolidate intelligently but dare to compete with the best in the world here at home in Canada.

We at the NAC have articulated the strategic objective of making the centre one of the great stages of the world, where Canadians can enjoy seeing Canada's best and the world's best, here in their national capital.

[Translation]

I now have the pleasure of introducing Brian Macdonald to you,

[English]

who is, as I hope you know, a director, choreographer, dancer, a patriot, and a passionate believer in the importance of live performance.

Mr. Brian Macdonald (Senior Artistic Adviser, National Arts Centre): Thank you, Mrs. Riley.

The Chairman: You don't need the introduction.

[Translation]

Mr. Brian Macdonald: Why am I here today? Perhaps I can explain this very briefly.

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[English]

I have spent a lifetime in the arts. I'm an artist. I began as a journalist, one of the original dancers of the National Ballet, an actor, internationally known choreographer, a director of musicals, artistic director of the Royal Swedish Ballet, the Bat Sheva Company of Israel, Les Grands Ballets Canadiens à Montréal, and associate director of the Stratford Festival and the Banff Centre. The arts, obviously, have been my passion and my life.

Dr. Thomson, it may interest you to know that I was the recipient of a senior award, which began my entire career: $5,000 from the Canada Council in the early 1960s. It changed my life.

I believe wholeheartedly that the arts have given my life its parameters, and have given many Canadians similar parameters, of enrichment, enjoyment, and the more profound implications of a moral sense.

As we know, a fascist society first abrogates the law, silences the judges, and then shoots the poets. A literate, multicultural society like ours exalts and protects the judicial system and supports the creative spirit of its artists. Both of these things anchor our society and provide our national and moral moorings.

I'm here also because I believe in the NAC. It is a crucible for the creativity that characterizes this extraordinary country. In that building, we present and produce arts and entertainment, exhibitions, symposiums, outreach programs to youth. We maintain a major symphony orchestra, welcome a multitude of dance companies, stage new plays and old in co-productions across the country, workshop new dramatists, et tout dans les deux langues officielles.

In all my experience in Canada, Europe, and the U.S., I have not seen any institution comparable, except perhaps the Kennedy Centre in another capital, Washington. The NAC is unique and, under the leadership of Jean Thérèse Riley and John Cripton, is enjoying a renaissance and a renewal that can only benefit Canada, its artists, and thus the highest aspirations of its people—incidentally, your constituents.

That, simply, is why I am here—to honour and support the recommendations that will be presented to you today. À la fin d'une carrière assez longue, this is where I can contribute the most.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Macdonald.

Mr. Jean Thérèse Riley: I thought Brian was going to introduce John. Anyway, John doesn't need any introduction. You all know him. You know the transformation that's occurred under his leadership. You know his energy and his creativity. John.

The Chairman: I think none of you needs an introduction.

[Translation]

Mr. John Cripton (Director and CEO, National Arts Centre): Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I'm very happy to be here today in order to take part in the discussion with my colleagues from the National Arts Centre and the Canada Council for the Arts before this important gathering.

[English]

Since we only have a short time left to make this presentation, I'm going to try to focus on four key issues that we at the NAC think are worthy of this committee's consideration.

I'm sure the committee has already encountered some of these issues, but we feel they represent aspects of this business in which the NAC can be a strategic part of the solution.

The original mandate of the NAC is to operate and maintain a cultural centre here in Ottawa, to develop the performing arts in the National Capital Region, and also to assist the Canada Council for the Arts in the development of the performing arts in Canada.

During this year, the National Arts Centre will have produced, co-produced, and presented more than 600 performances of classical and contemporary orchestral music, chamber music, rock, pop, and country music, jazz and blues, English and French theatre, comedy, ballet, modern dance, opera and oratorio, plus conferences, lectures, symposia, graduations, weddings, and even bar mitzvahs.

It appears from all reports that we are finally getting things right. Through the combined substantial expertise and experience of our staff, we've identified areas in the performing arts that require particular attention. We're already in the process of attempting to deal with some of these areas. The ideas and expertise are there, but the financial resources are not.

The first key issue is youth—and we've already heard other people talk about this today—the nurturing of young artists and the exposure of young people to the arts, for all the reasons we've outlined in our comprehensive brief that we've tabled with this presentation.

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A federal cultural policy should adopt a commitment to nourish, develop, and preserve the infrastructure that will become tomorrow's musicians, actors, dancers, writers, and even politicians.

The NAC's role here is to maximize the exposure our young people have to the performing arts through special programs in all disciplines and through reduced ticket prices; to develop young Canadian orchestra conductors through internships and mentorships, using the resources of one of Canada's finest orchestras; to provide master classes to gifted musicians through residencies and through the use of current and emerging teleconferencing technologies;

[Translation]

to develop theatre talent and put on presentations for young audiences in minority communities across the country.

[English]

and also to develop apprenticeships and performing opportunities to graduates of our national theatre school and other academic institutions.

Our second key issue is the creation of a performing arts investment fund. This fund will provide Canadian audiences with suitable alternatives to les Misérables, the Phantoms, the Cats, and all the other beauties and beasts that tend to monopolize Canada's musical theatre scene. The fund will offer creative opportunities to Canada's composers, playwrights, choreographers, actors, musicians, and singers, to ensure that Canadian stories are told by Canadian artists.

The NAC is presently developing a strategic plan for investment in performing arts projects along the lines of the Canadian film and cable development fund. Like the film and cable fund, the performing arts investment fund would provide adequate resources for the research and development phase of new Canadian theatre and musical productions.

It would seek private partnerships and presentation commitment at the onset of a project, and the fund would nourish that part of the cultural ecosystem that requires immediate investment for it to succeed on the world stage. The fund would be designed to assist projects from their inception through the difficult time of workshopping right through to the first run.

Working in consultation with the Canada Council for the Arts, the performing arts investment fund would be administered by the National Arts Centre with a special board composed of the NAC, representatives from other major performing art institutions, producers such as the Confederation Centre, some of our regional theatres, private producers, and other specialists in the area of commercial theatre.

Public support for this proposal is estimated at $50 million over five years, or $10 million a year. This represents only 5% of the yearly Canadian television and cable fund budget of $200 million.

One of the primary objectives of a federal cultural policy should be the expansion of public access to Canadian artistic works through more support for national touring and broadcasting of performances. This is our third issue.

The NAC's role here is to work with the Canada Council for the Arts to enlarge the presence of Canadian artists throughout the country. Our role is also to work with our national broadcaster, the CBC and Radio-Canada, and with private broadcasters as well, to establish the National Arts Centre as an important content provider. Our role is also to expand and extend our co-productions with other performing artists and art companies across the country so that they can better amortize their production costs, as well as permitting artists and organizations to develop productions together, usually productions that they couldn't afford individually.

A federal cultural policy should also recognize new and emerging technologies as basic tools for communicating artistic expression. Technology, our final issue for today, must assume its logical place in the spectrum of creativity. What is of primary importance is the nurturing, support, and opportunities we can provide for the artists. The National Arts Centre is using and intends to explore every facet of the emerging technologies, but we're mindful of the need to preserve and develop the artistic infrastructure: the artists, their creations, which provide the rationale, the content, and the creative energy of the broadcasts, recordings, projections, web pages, and sound digitization that surround us.

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During the Second World War, when asked why he did not cut subsidies to the arts in order to help finance the war effort, Winston Churchill replied, “Then there would be nothing to fight for.”

Thank you for your interest and attention.

[Translation]

Thank you for your interest and your attention.

[English]

The Chairman: When we started this session, I said if we could hear you for about 40 minutes you would give us enough time for the members with their questions, but when the message is so clear and so well put, I think time doesn't count any more.

We found your words very encouraging, very inspiring, and extremely interesting. I regret that more members are not here today. Unfortunately, we are spread so thinly with committees, and there are votes in other committees. I know of two members especially who are exceptionally interested in the arts and wanted to be here but are tied up in another committee. They hope to get here before the end of the session.

Meanwhile, I am pleased to open the meeting to questions.

Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Thank you for your presentations. These are indeed extremely interesting messages. We have heard a major federal officer say that art is linked to our identity and our sovereignty. You can be sure that you are speaking to someone who understands exactly what you mean.

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: Especially if it's said in English.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, especially in English. It can be understood in all languages. Although it's very nicely expressed, we can't bury our heads in the sand; we have to admit that we have a major problem here in Canada. From the moment Quebec culture is not recognized as such and—I wouldn't want to use too strong an expression, to which a meaning I don't want to give it is given—a Canadian brainwash is required absolutely, we're in a bit of an impasse. Regardless of our objective of diversity, we know very well that, from the moment the Quebec people has difficulty feeling that it has its place and its culture, its identity is a bit rejected and we find ourselves faced with difficulties. How do you see that, you who are so aware of the importance of identity and sovereignty in the arts? How do you understand the problem we experience?

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: Certainly, in using the words I used, I realized the impact they would have and the question that would come afterwards. I dared to use these words, first because I believe them, and second because a few days after the referendum in the fall of 1995, we put on a production at the NAC of Cyrano, in coproduction with the Théâtre du nouveau monde, I think. It was less than 48 hours after the results of the referendum that caused everyone so much excitement. As always, we had invited some people and figures from the federal government to come and meet the artists. Politicians, judges and so on came, and I wondered what was going to happen, since everyone was on the alert. What would the atmosphere be like? Edmond Rostand talked louder than everyone else, that is, Cyrano got through to us. Mauril, I think you were there. We had an outstanding party. The actors, who had probably voted with concerns like the ones you expressed, came to find us and thanked us. They told us: "Go on doing what you're doing. The NAC is so important. Theatre is so important."

• 1200

This was a concrete illustration that the misunderstandings we have politically are political arrangements. To my mind, these are mechanisms that don't work as well as they should. But beyond that, when we meet, especially in the cultural arena, we understand each other and offer each other all the respect we should offer one another and that we owe one another.

A voice: I don't know whether Ms. Tremblay is prepared to hear you.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: No, not necessarily. I'm prepared to hear what Ms. Riley has to say. I'm even capable of telling her that the "O Canada," which I sang when I was young, was the 1534 one and not the 1867 one. This is also a hiatus that separates us, in a way. The "O Canada" of my youth, I used to sing it every Friday afternoon, but I have a hard time singing the Wednesday afternoon one because things have changed since then.

A voice:

[Editor's note: Inaudible].

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Something strikes me, and I'd like to understand why it's happening all of a sudden. It seems to me that you have existed for 40 or 50 years and that there's always been room...

The Chairman: Ms. Tremblay, you're talking about the Canada Council now?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: About both, since I think it applies to them both and it's something we can see coming. All of a sudden, we want to place the priority on young audiences and young artists. It's as if you had to confess to us that for some time, you'd put them aside. For a lack of resources, you had launched some artists and some theatre troupes, but you weren't able to support so many. So you were forced to see them get bigger and older, but you didn't take enough care of new talent and now you want to turn in that direction. Is that an incorrect reading of what you're saying?

Ms. Shirley Thomson: No, I don't think so. I'd like to ask my vice-chair, who handles mainly this matter of young people, to answer. François.

Mr. François Colbert: I teach at the École des hautes études commerciales. I chair the arts management department and teach marketing. I've been working in the arts for the past 25 years. All studies have shown that people discover their interest in the arts when they're young.

The Canada Council has always had programs for young people, and I'm among those who, when the new funding was allocated, said that perhaps we should continue in that direction. In fact, when everything exploded, we decided a few things. For example, Quebec is recognized for its theatre for children throughout the world. There are artists who push, and we mustn't forget the whole issue of cultural education. In strategic orientation terms, if we receive another $25 million, we mustn't allocate it entirely to the arts for adults. Young people mustn't be forgotten.

For example, in children's theatre, the expansion of companies occurred in the 1970s. I was there and I saw a lot of artists take an interest all of a sudden, thanks to all sorts of initiatives that enabled artists to create companies and works, which didn't occur before. I think we have to continue in that direction and I'd say even that in some of our arts, it may be seen that our scarce money is perhaps being invested in areas for adults and that maybe not enough is being invested. I'm thinking notably of contemporary dance. I personally thing that not enough effort is being made in that area. So it was much more to make sure we didn't forget about it.

[English]

Mr. John Cripton: If I may say, reasonable exposure to the arts in the school system doesn't exist in this country. They don't have the money for it, and they're backing away from it.

Reasonable exposure to the arts amongst the cultural institutions of the country is at a very low level because once again it's a financial decision that most companies and artists have to make.

• 1205

We have a spectrum of artists in this country who specialize in dealing with young audiences; it's clearly not enough. If we are going to succeed we have to really get totally involved in developing a master plan that will help, that will encourage, and that will provide more opportunities for young people, not only to be exposed to the arts as audiences but also specifically to get involved very much in the work of the arts themselves.

All the studies we are seeing recently—and I think we've alluded to this—are very clear that we can't afford to have an individual stovepiped in this society. This is where we're going, and it's wrong. We feel that an individual can spread in many directions, and it's beneficial not only to the individual but, finally, to the society as a whole.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

[English]

Mr. Muise.

Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): I'll take the lead from my colleague from Nova Scotia.

The Chairman: Go ahead, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and again, thank you to the panel.

Your passion, especially your passion for the arts...I love that. It's great, and it shows you're right. When we immigrated to this country, my parents always said that Canada would allow us to grow. Just plant the seeds and it will happen.

Of course, you know the explosion of culture coming from not only Nova Scotia but all of Atlantic Canada. If you look at the television series Anne of Green Gables and the success of the Anne of Green Gables home, just to the Japanese tourists—

Mr. John Cripton: Music awards.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: And music awards.

When you go into the Charlottetown airport, there's a huge sign in Japanese. They flock over just to touch or relive a piece of history, of Canadiana, which is really only 100 years old when you think about it.

There's the Neptune Theatre in Halifax, which has just been redone. It's an outstanding theatre not only for Nova Scotian artists but for artists right across the country.

I do want to bring you greetings on behalf of Alexa McDonough, our leader, and Wendy Lill, our cultural critic, as well. She has excused herself today, not to go on another committee, but her son, who is disabled, is in a play today and she couldn't miss that. As you know, she has done some plays on her own, and I know she did not want to miss this. But being the mom that she is, she felt her commitments were elsewhere. So she extends her greetings. She had a couple of questions for me to ask, as well.

I'm surprised Rick Mercer from This Hour Has 22 Minutes is not here today. This would kind of be up his alley, to put a spin on the show.

Madam, besides funding, of course, what in your opinion would be the biggest problem or the perception of a problem facing the council and that of the average Canadian on the street today?

Dr. Shirley Thomson: I welcome your posing that question, and I think my colleague, John Cripton, has already hinted about one of the issues that preoccupies both agencies; that is, the withdrawal of formal arts education from the school system, which means that we do not have a public already attuned and sensitized to the arts.

Of course, because we are so profoundly imbued with the importance of all art forms, both as pleasure and as the intelligent and disciplined and satisfying area to respond to all sorts of grave questions of life and death and the terror and joy of just being alive, we want that to be shared with each and every Canadian across this country, in both official languages, from whatever origin. We have such rich, rich talent here.

The main problem, then, is the lack of formal education and how we compensate for that, and public education, in general, about just how important the arts are and how enriched life can become because of them. We're working on this at all times, but I would say that's a major problem—I don't know about you, John.

Mr. John Cripton: I agree with what you're saying. I think also the mechanisms of making all of this work have, in many cases, been firmly established, but there are still great holes that have to be filled and we have to try to clearly identify how we get these messages across.

When we talk about the broadcasting industry, they are quite competent. It's a very different area of concern. They broadcast; people buy a television and they watch. Getting artists to be seen in different parts of the country, for example, is much more complicated.

• 1210

First of all, you have to have a local structure that's able to receive artists. The will to receive artists, of course, has to be there. You have to have a structure that allows for the marketing of artists, and another structure for the proper presentation in the right kind of facility. Then you have to find and define the right kind of performances that should take place in a community that perhaps is just beginning to receive artists.

It's much more complex than one assumes. We still are working on finding those mechanisms to bridge those gaps.

The funding of the Canada Council to the artists has been extraordinary and the results are clear to all. We give much to the world, but we give very little to ourselves in this regard, and I think this is one of the areas we have to start looking to pay attention to.

The Chairman: One other question, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: One other quick one? Okay. Two, maybe? Just kidding.

Monsieur Colbert, you mentioned that you had cut your administration by 50%. I had some questions asked by the people who work for the council, the PSAC group.

One particular question they asked was about the reduction of some of their staff members and how people are being replaced on a part-time basis by consultants making a fair number of dollars a year, $86,000, I believe, plus expenses.

The question is, does the council plan to continue this practice of using consultants or outside workers, or will it replace them with regular full-time employees?

Mr. François Colbert: You are referring to one case where, yes, we hired a specialist to run the Art Bank, but otherwise it's the regular staff of the Canada Council. The council decided to cut its administration to be able to not cut the grants to artists and arts organizations. I think now, with a new $25 million, we know we're really lean, and maybe too lean. Maybe we should hire some more staff, especially to handle the $25 million.

That's the type of thing we're thinking about and are revisiting.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: Thank you.

I just wanted to say thank you, on behalf of our aboriginal critic, for being so inclusive with our first nations people and their cultural diversities as well. That's top-notch.

The Chairman: Mr. Muise.

Mr. Mark Muise: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe I should have gone before my colleague, because—

The Chairman: He stole all your questions?

Mr. Mark Muise: Yes.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: I've been reading your notes.

Mr. Mark Muise: Oh, that's what you've done!

I sense a lot of enthusiasm. I have to compliment the group and thank them for coming and also for the enthusiasm or.... There's more to it. I had another word here, but I can't find it.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: I think you're seeing better now.

The Chairman: Maybe your parties should merge or something.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Mark Muise: My comments are the same but my questions will probably be different.

I have to compliment you on your devotion and your commitment. It really comes across.

I've always remembered the comment Winston Churchill made. I think it so eloquently puts all of the arts and culture in perspective. A lot of people, I think, miss that.

With regard to the questions I'm going to ask, please don't see them as speaking against the arts but to make the arts and the people in the arts be seen in a more positive light by some people in the community. Indirectly, I think, that will affect funding that will come through from government.

Before my election, I was sitting on the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia doing fund-raising. They had a section they would like to develop for the western part of Nova Scotia.

One of the questions or comments we often hear is that arts, culture, that type of thing, is highbrow, to put it in a polite way. Again, that is not my opinion, but when you hear that in society I think it's important that we help change that.

I'm wondering how the Canada Council and the National Arts Centre can help change that. I think it's important, because when more people think it's a good thing, it will indirectly force government to put more dollars where they should be put.

• 1215

So it's not a negative comment, ladies and gentlemen. I'd just like to hear your opinion on how that could be changed a little bit.

Mr. John Cripton: The Arts Centre has recently opened its doors to the private sector as much as possible in order to encourage alternate forms of entertainment to become available to the local people in the Hull-Ottawa area. It's beginning to work. We're just about to launch the musical Patsy, the story of Patsy Cline.

Our whole marketing strategy here is to go way out into the regions. We're going to the small communities. We're going to the different radio stations that specialize in this area. We're consciously attracting these people to the centre, because the crossover is also very interesting. Someone comes into the centre and realizes, perhaps for the first time, that there are other things going on here. We encourage them to take advantage of this.

It all comes down to a matter of personal taste, obviously. In fact, even our orchestra series is not just an orchestra series; it's seven series. One deals with the interest in baroque musical specifically and another the classical repertoire. We even have a special week set aside for very avant-garde contemporary music.

We have to cater to tastes, but we have to go further. We have to encourage those people who perhaps have never crossed the threshold to make that move. We hear all the time the words, “the elitism of the arts”. This country is at a developmental stage, where we're still talking in those terms. When you go to any European city or any Asian city, no one talks in those terms.

It's a vital part of our society. We have to get over that hump. I think we have to forget about the people who already love the arts and go after the used-car salesman who has never stepped across a theatre, and create work that speaks to those people directly.

There was a time in this country when we were doing that. I remember the Canada Council funding some wonderful productions from Saskatchewan. One that comes to mind is Eighteen Wheels, a musical dealing with drivers of trucks. It was wonderful, and it gave very clear messages. We need now to produce more of that.

When we cross paths with a Phantom that drops into the same Saskatchewan and sucks up $25 million in local entertainment dollars, there's no room for anything else. It's not a question of kicking them out; it's a question of providing alternatives.

You mentioned Anne of Green Gables. How many years ago was it first produced? Too many. What have we got in between that? I mean, it's time for another Anne of Green Gables, for sure.

The Chairman: Would you like to add to that, Dr. Thomson?

Dr. Shirley Thomson: I should add that I think sometimes the question of “elite” is really one side of the same coin. Popular and elite go together, the same way we fund jazz festivals and Rita MacNeil—who can resist her?—as well as Tafelmusik and the Toronto Symphony.

I agree with John. Lots of products, lots of objects to look at, books, artists—that's what makes a rich and diverse culture in our country. We're gradually producing more and more.

I've always been interested in the fact that people will refer to artists as elite, but not Jacques Villeneuve, or Silken Laumann, or Donovan Bailey. They're elite too. It really means le plus distingué, the best. This is what we want for Canadians. This is what I want for myself. This is what my board wants. We all want that.

Do you know, for instance, that attendance at museums and art galleries was 20 million last year, and at sports palaces it was 21 million? It's very impressive, the number of Canadians....

Now, I'm not sure our press would put that in highlights, because it's not particularly good news. I mean, it's good news, but it's not scandalous. It's not disaster.

Mr. John Cripton: No more room on the sports page.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: That's right.

At any rate, that's what I wanted to add.

Mr. John Cripton: You left out one name: Alexei Yashin.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: Yes, of course, John. That's your recruit.

Mr. Mark Muise: We won't try to make the arts more scandalous, but I guess—

Dr. Shirley Thomson: We could, but we don't.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It's possible. I can help you.

A voice: I'm sure!

Voices: Oh, oh!

• 1220

Mr. Mark Muise: Without making the arts scandalous, I think that was one of the reasons I'm bringing this up for debate. This is being broadcast, and I think it's another opportunity for the arts and culture side of our society to be able to express that opinion, so I thank you for that response.

Also, I was involved over a four- or five-year period in starting a sailing association in our area, and one of our big concerns was that we wanted to involve youngsters. It was to be spread all across the spectrum of our society. We were afraid of elitism and we wanted to show that it was for everyone, not just for those who could afford big boats and that type of thing. I thank you for your comments.

Another thing that I'm just wondering about is how the Canada Council and the National Arts Centre together could maybe help this. We know for example in Nova Scotia and Cape Breton.... I come from the land of Maud Lewis.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: Yes, I know her work.

Mr. Mark Muise: She was living in my riding.

But I think our country is so vast that it's easy to pick one person from here and one from there, and sometimes I'm just a little bit concerned that we might be missing the fact that we may not have a fair representation across the country.

I'm wondering how we could help to ensure that, because it's always good. It could be good for a number of things. It could be good for national unity. If people who have never gone to Quebec have a chance to visit someone from Quebec and speak with them, they know when they look them in the eye that they're alike, and vice versa when people from Quebec go to the maritimes or the west. We all have the same feelings in our hearts. I think that's important.

Mr. John Cripton: To give you one overview that I've had for many years, I was first involved in developing the touring office of the Canada Council and I've been involved in touring all my life. I firmly believe that this is of course the way to allow for the proper exchanges, to say nothing of the idea of co-productions and the idea of real exchanges internationally and culturally, which I think are also vitally important.

But since 1967, you know, this country has spent a tremendous amount of money on building these incredible facilities. You've seen them all across the country. Perhaps you don't spend your time as I do going from facility to facility to see what's going on there. In many of them I could actually eat off the floor. That's not theatre. That's not the show business that exists all through the world.

These facilities are not doing their job, first of all because they don't have the money. No one has ever funded a facility to program. It has been funded in order to repair its cooling system, to fix its driveways. With the exception of the National Arts Centre and the Confederation Centre, no one has ever funded any of these facilities to program—not the provincial governments, not the municipal governments, not the federal government. That is one of the important missing links in this whole mixture.

It's very easy for us to put a production together tomorrow that can be presented across the country, but unless we subsidize the whole tour, which is impossible.... We cannot find anyone in all of Saskatchewan, and we find very few people in Alberta and British Columbia, except for Vancouver, who have the money to bring in what we would suggest are the right things to tour in this country. This is one of the essential problems. There are several others, but touring is one of the major ways of dealing with this.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Muise.

Dr. Thomson?

Dr. Shirley Thomson: I would also like to respond to that question, please, just to briefly add something, because what you're talking about, that is, art remaining invisible because it takes place in a region that is far away and that may not have media and so forth and may not come to notice and have its own access to funding.... We find that to be a continuous challenge, in two areas. One is to create new programs or ways of explaining our programs and making them known in the regions and making the criteria of them reflect the kind of art that people really do in a region.

For instance, in regard to our new festival initiative, we just had a jury for that, and I'm very surprised at the deep reach it has into far parts of Canada. I'll give you a couple of examples. We are funding le Carrefour mondial de l'accordéon de Montmagny and we are funding the Lesser Slave Lake North Country Community Association for a festival of folk art. It's really a big reach into the north and into communities.

• 1225

The reason we weren't funding this before is that we didn't have a program that attracts such things. You can't call that a permanent musical institution. In this case, the field is music, so it's everything from jazz right on down. But we have done this, and it's an innovation on the part of the council that has created a response in the regions. The quality of this work is very high.

In Celtic music, for instance, the Cape Breton artists and the Îles-de-la-Madeleine artists are being presented by an Ontario festival. That's why we're funding them, by the way. We don't fund them to do their local Goderich artists. They have to do something that is nationally interesting in order for us to be able to fund them for that component. So actually, it creates a very big dynamism, and it's the regional colour of it that is part of that.

The second area is our juries, and we have very clear policies: the regions must be represented and the official languages must be represented. There are also age and gender factors and other factors, but those two are absolutely primordial. Last year, one thousand artists participated in our peer committees, artists from all across the country, large, small, old, young, everything....

The Chairman: Mr. Cripton.

Mr. John Cripton: I thought I'd just echo that. Earlier, Ms. Thomson spoke about festivals and their importance. That is actually quite correct. It's a fabulous opportunity to bring people together. It allowed us, for example, in our Canada Dance Festival this year, to present all at one time at the National Arts Centre about 98% of the people who are involved in professional dance in every part of the country.

We are also in the planning stages of a very important theatre congress being done in cooperation with the Canada Council and the heritage department. Next year we will feature our first Quinze jours de la dramaturgie, which will bring to Ottawa and Hull French dramatists and theatre people from all over the country to examine the role of French theatre in this country, to look at different ways of improving....

I think I should let Jean-Claude say a few words about that. He is the one who is putting it all together.

But this is a perfect opportunity to bring in those people whose voices would otherwise never be heard.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Do you wish to add something?

Mr. Jean-Claude Marcus (Artistic Advisor, French Theatre, National Arts Centre): I'd simply like to add a few words to what John has just said. The principle rests on the fact that the creators in our Francophone areas, whether they come or issue from companies located in the Francophone community of Vancouver, Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan or Acadia, work a great deal, but work in a restricted environment and don't have either the resources or the critical environment necessary to go ahead and do promotion.

By participating in a meeting, a gathering of dramatists from the National Arts Centre, suddenly they're in touch with one another, they bring up the problems of creating in each of the Francophone regions and they work at the same time, together. What's important and of interest for us, Francophones, is to make sure that links exist among the minority Francophone communities in the provinces and regions of Quebec.

Next year, as part of these two weeks, there will be companies from Quebec that work in the regions, outside the main centres of Montreal and Quebec City. Working in Abitibi, Sherbrooke, on the North Shore or in the Lower St. Lawrence presents some major challenges. I think it will be very important to ensure that this meeting of Francophones takes place so that they can talk.

• 1230

For example, the people from the Théâtre du Bic, near Rimouski, a very important theatre at the regional level, will take part in it. We have worked a lot with the people from down there, who are not very far from Acadia, among others. The participants will be able to talk with one another. So we want to make this sort of gathering and synergy possible.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Marcus. Mr. Muise, you'll have to set the example by going to the accordion festival in Montmagny.

Ms. Shirley Thomson: I'd like to add, Mr. Chairman, that our new chair, Jean-Louis Roux, will play at the Théâtre du Bic this summer. The Francophone festival you've just been talking about is of course co-funded by the National Arts Centre and the Canada Council. This is something very important to us.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Thomson. Mr. Bélanger.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add that I live in Le Bic.

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Chairman: So, Ms. Tremblay, do you take part in this great Canadian festival?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes.

The Chairman: Mr. Bélanger.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Perhaps it should also be pointed out here that Le Bic is not the bureau of information of Canada.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I have a few comments and two or three questions. I'll say them, and then we'll see.

[English]

My first comment is for Mr. Macdonald. I particularly appreciated your reference to shooting the poets. I believe that a truly effective regressive or fascist regime would first shoot the poets—

A voice: Not the judges—

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: —because I believe the poets are perhaps the most significant in terms of being on the margins and forcing a society to confront its dilemmas and its existential problems. Thank goodness we haven't had too many regimes that effective.

[Translation]

My first question is a bit broader and has to do with funding. I'd like to know whether both the institutions here today have started thinking about the very long-term possibility, say in 25, 30 or 40 years, of becoming more or less financially independent, or totally independent financially. What would it take to get there? Sometime, if not today, I'd like to have, your thoughts on this matter. In a way, it's a challenge I'm making you. What would a national government have to do to achieve this objective in 25 or 40 years of building a financial foundation that was broad enough to basically ensure total financial independence? That's my first question.

[English]

The second one is more of a concern, and maybe it shouldn't even be one. I've heard a lot, not only from you today but from other groups that have appeared, about looking at culture as an industry, about its significance in terms of tourism and competition, and about how we have to compete and so forth. And that's fine. I suspect we have to deal with that to a great extent because that's the nature of our society.

Do we risk at some point losing art for art's sake, for the soul? If we do, where do we risk it and how do we make sure we don't get to that point? Maybe I'm being a little bit naive here, but I do believe—and I hope to keep that naivety—that there's a thirst in us that can only be satisfied by “matters artistic”. Whether they're successful or not and whether they need to be what drives our tourism industry and so forth, to me, in some cases, might very well be secondary. I'd like to know if that too is indeed something that has the tongues of the artistic community wagging? If it does, where are they wagging?

• 1235

[Translation]

My third question is more practical in nature and has to do with the relationship between the two institutions. It will be recalled that there was at some point a meeting in which I had the pleasure of participating, during which we looked at the mandate and future of the National Arts Centre. We found that, even if the act creating the National Arts Centre stipulated that there was a close relationship between this institution and the Canada Council, this relationship did not exist at that time. I seem to see today that it is improving and I'd like you to say a few words about it and tell me where it seems to be going. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Bélanger.

[English]

Mr. John Cripton: If I could answer the last question first, it's like discovering an old lover.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: Beautifully put. And we like it, and we're going to meet often.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. John Cripton: We've actually begun, I would say, very important sessions together, where our arts officers and the officers of the Canada Council have begun to come together, first of all to try to understand where each of us going, to try to determine those common routes and how we might travel down them together.

It has been a long time overdue that these things started to happen. With the goodwill on both sides, where we could go together can in fact not multiply only doubly, but in perhaps a much more geometrical progression. I'm quite sure you share....

Dr. Shirley Thomson: I quite agree. We've had one meeting, and we will have other meetings and staff interact at various levels, and we will cooperate on projects. It makes our lives richer, and I'm assuming yours as well at the National Arts Centre.

The Chairman: Ms. Riley.

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: I'd like to make a comment that doesn't relate to any of the other questions I'm looking forward to having addressed.

[Translation]

Mauril, your question is incomplete. In the legislation respecting the National Arts Centre, we are asked to work very closely with the Canada Council and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. We were very discreet in our presentation in saying that one of our problems was that our artists were not as well known as they should be.

[English]

We're all talking more or less directly about access. We've talked about the fact that we're hoping to improve our relationship with the broadcasting industry, but the fact is, the CBC is a huge investment on the part of the federal government, a cultural instrument, and one that might be directed more explicitly by this committee to be offering....

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: To become an old lover.

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: Yes, to become an old lover. We have found that relationship to be not as strong as I suspect both parties would like.

Mr. John Cripton: But it should be, with the new mandate of the CBC and Radio-Canada, for example, to become 100% Canadian.

We've seen the effect of Radio-Canada over the years developing the arts in Quebec at a far greater speed than has happened in the rest of Canada, simply because they began to focus on their own artists and watch their own artists work. On any evening you can turn a television on in Quebec or analyse who is watching what, and 80%—I'm throwing this 80% out, but I'm not far off—of the people are watching work done by their own artists. We haven't done that in this country.

The new policies of the CBC, however, will now move us in the right direction. The next stage for us is to find ways of convincing them that the products we have to offer are worthy of their consideration.

The Chairman: Now, it's 12.40 p.m., and I believe there's going to be a vote after 1 p.m.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: We have many votes at 1 p.m.

The Chairman: So just to give a chance to the others, if we could proceed with the two other questions, Mr. Bélanger....

[Translation]

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: The bells ring at 1 o'clock and the vote takes place at 1:15 p.m.

The Chairman: Yes, that's right.

[English]

Dr. Shirley Thomson: I could answer very quickly the question about art for art's sake. Artists will always create because they have to create. The tourism and economic fallout from artistic manifestations—you're thinking of Renoir last year, with $31 million direct into the economy and $61 million in the regions.

In 1880 there's no way Renoir would have been even recognized. He was condemned for his frightening portraits.

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The Group of Seven in 1920: vulgar, garish paintings, a dog's breakfast. Fifty or 75 years later, they become icons for Canadian identity with the landscape. That's why we must invest always in the unknown, in the young artist; that's why we must take risks. I'm sure there will always be that, as long as you don't let those fascists take over.

On the problem of endowments, every art organization I know of thinks of setting up a foundation, dreams of setting up a foundation. There's not that much free cash in this country. We have to do a lot more work with the corporate sector to tell them how important the atmosphere and the civilized state that the arts produce in this country are for them, as corporations, to make money, to make profit.

Every art institution wants to establish a foundation. Tax laws would help—

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: That's right.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: —in making it more profitable for both individuals and corporations to donate to the arts, and I assure you we know how to spend that money wisely and cautiously.

John, you probably have some things to add.

Mr. John Cripton: Perhaps what I'm going to say is out of line, but I'm going to say it anyway.

The Chairman: There's nothing out of line here.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. John Cripton: Along with tax, the government still plays a role, and one of the roles it can play is not necessarily always giving money, but using its influence to convince the private sector in many instances to think in terms of the society in which it operates.

Perhaps the most recent allocations given over to the Bombardier firm, for example, might have come along with a little bit of an incentive to provide some cultural funding to replace some of the cigarette funding that's going to drift away in the next five years. But first of all it has to be in the minds of our politicians and our bureaucrats to think in those terms.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Are you satisfied, Mr. Bélanger?

[Translation]

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. O'Brien, then Mr. Bonwick.

Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to our guests. I'm sorry I was late. I was one of those people caught in the conflicting duties the chairman spoke of. However, I'm here, unlike the Reform Party. I don't see them here at all. Enough said there.

I would just note the progress in attitudes that I've experienced personally. My background is teaching, education. I remember a time when those of us who were jocks wouldn't have gone anywhere near the stage, and now some of the leading athletes in schools are the leads in various productions. I know of the snobbery comment that my colleague, Mr. Muise, referred to, and I hear that as well, but I just note the progress in young people that I've seen over the course of the last 25 years or so in this country: the athletes are not afraid to take part in the arts the way they were at one time.

One of my questions was touched on, but I'd like to explore it further. Private sector funding in this country, on a percentage basis, lags behind the United States. Why? That's number one.

Number two, I anticipated part of the answer being tax laws. That's an obvious one that government has to explore. But what else can we do to get private sector funding up to the level it should be vis-à-vis the United States?

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: I'd like to speak, because I feel so strongly that one of the reasons we have such an extraordinary golden age, as I've called it, of cultural activity in this country is that we haven't forced our companies to be dependent on exclusively commercial considerations. So I don't think there will ever be a formula that will be ideal to make companies dependent on the corporate and private sectors. That's what has made it such a success.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: What do you mean exactly?

[Translation]

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: Artistically, in the US, they depend almost exclusively on the corporate and philanthropic sector. The considerations are very, very commercial. I think that the great success we've known in our culture is the result of government support which enables us to take the risks I was talking about a few minutes ago.

[English]

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Just so my question is not misinterpreted or I'm not misinterpreting your answer, I'm not suggesting that all funding come from the private sector, but does it not concern those who make their living in the arts that—my information is—funding from the private sector in Canada lags well behind that in the United States?

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Mr. John Cripton: We're looking at about 17% or 18% in Canada, compared to about 45% in the United States.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: That's a pretty big lag.

Mr. John Cripton: That's a huge gap. There's no artist in this country who will say to anyone that they don't want to bridge that gap somehow.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Right, but how do we do it?

Mr. John Cripton: But more importantly—and what I think Ms. Riley is saying—we cannot lose sight of the need to do both.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: My question didn't anticipate an either/or.

Mr. John Cripton: Exactly.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: I would just like to see a little more from the private sector.

Mr. John Cripton: Absolutely. We all would.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: I'm from London, Ontario. The theatre there is constantly struggling. My friend talks about “art for art's sake”, and I support that notion, but there are those in our community who want to see the rich companies and individuals in London, Ontario, which is a fairly economically stable city, do more, and I think they have an argument. So I thought I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

Mr. John Cripton: If I could refer to one thing, “art for art's sake” now has been absolutely outmoded by a new expression, which will probably be more resonant in the halls of businesses, and it's really “art for man's sake”.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: I think I know what you mean there.

My second question, Mr. Chairman.... My colleague, Ms. Tremblay, mentioned Quebec culture, but I can tell you, as a non-Quebecker, I very much feel Quebec's culture is my culture. I embrace it to the extent I can, and I would note there's a very large Celtic component. Obviously, with my name, I'm from an Irish background, but it's interesting that the oldest cultural society in Montreal—by just a little bit, but still the oldest—is the St. Patrick's Society.

when Céline Dion says she's proud to be a Quebecker and a Canadian, then I'm even more proud of her.

So it leads me to my question, how can a Canadian cultural policy that we're trying to come to grips with here encourage a better appreciation among Canadians of culture in regions other than where they themselves live? Can you help me with that?

Mr. John Cripton: Aside from all the touring, the talks we've had this morning, there are opportunities for artists from different parts of the country to actually come into the companies that exist in different parts of the country and work together to fashion new types of work. Lepage, for example, does this all the time, not only in Canada, but he's doing this all over the world, as well.

We had an experience last year of a wonderful company from the Théâtre des Deux Mondes in Montreal, a production called Leitmotiv, which played very successfully in our theatre. We talked to them afterwards and said, you know, this is something that should play all across the country. They said, we wish. They have played already in Germany. They're working on a production for Israel, the United States, and Japan. They've never played in the rest of Canada, not because they couldn't apply for and get a grant from the Canada Council—that would be a snap—but how do they do it? They don't know the rest of the country. I think that's part of the mechanism that needs to be corrected here.

I feel very strongly also that we should be bringing in choreographers from British Columbia to work in Toronto, and so on, and theatre directors from Quebec. The amount of translation that the Canada Council has funded over the years is tremendous, from English to French and French to English, and this is happening.

I don't think we should be in despair about what is going on in this country. I think we just have to fix, to really understand where it's not working well enough, and just correct those elements, bring the last few connections together to really make this thing the best in the world.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Thank you.

Can I finish with a request, Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: On my question on how we in government and you in the arts can encourage more, I happen to think the private sector should be doing more—not that government should be doing less; I don't say that at all, but the private sector should be doing more. It should be a better partnership.

When you've had a chance—whoever—to reflect on that, could you submit any further thoughts you might have, other than tax laws? That's an obvious one that we agree with, but if you have some other thoughts, I would be happy to receive them.

Mr. John Cripton: I'd like to share with you just one thought here.

I think it's in Minneapolis, but I may be wrong—

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: Yes, it is Minneapolis.

Mr. John Cripton: The corporate sector in Minneapolis decided to get together and transform the arts community in its own city, and it is one of the most successful stories in the history of the United States in culture, so much so that they're even beginning the process of visiting other communities to begin talking to the private sector in those communities about how to put this thing together.

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I think we could investigate that a little bit further and work out an actual plan that brings some of these success stories in to show.... It would not be to speak to the arts, but corporations speaking to corporations.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: That would be great. Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Mr. Bonwick.

Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. In a few minutes, I'm going to just try to cover off three different topics. One will build on a colleague's comments. One will counter a colleague's comments. Last, I'll ask a couple of questions about how we might better strengthen the industry.

I guess first of all I should thank you very much for sharing your views and your experience with some of us who don't have the experience you have. It's always interesting hearing new speakers. Every time we get new speakers, I end up with more and more pages of notes. It's tremendous.

First of all, I want to build on Mr. Muise's comments on communications and getting the message out to people. I think it's more of a challenge both from the arts sector and the government sector on communicating not just the importance but the impact of the artistic community. I think that's how we sell it in communities all across the country.

As for how we do that, I guess I would look to suggestions or recommendations from you and your colleagues as to whether that would be now or whether that would be written submissions to the clerk down the road. Can you come up with suggestions on how we can better communicate?

I don't believe the average Canadian realizes the impact that the artistic industry has in Canada. If they did, I think they would not necessarily respect it a lot more, but appreciate it a lot more for more than just the importance of the identity or the culture. That's one question for you to ponder.

The next thing is with regard to Madame Tremblay's comment. Ms. Riley, you said some words about our integrity or independence and how one maintains it. I took those words to show how we could better strengthen a country, not as a tool necessarily to regionalize or break up a country.

Madame Tremblay is a member I respect very much and like a lot. It doesn't bother me, but it hurts me to hear about that with Quebec. Terms were used like “Canadian brainwashing”.

I don't consider myself to have a much greater grasp than the average Canadian on what Canadian culture is or the importance of Canadian culture. I certainly recognize that Quebec culture is different from that of Alberta, British Columbia, and even Newfoundland. I recognize that difference on the micro level, but on the macro level, I look at it as something that makes Canada the greatest country in the world. There's the fact that you have your part and Newfoundland has their part.

I guess my comments are directed for the record, for Madame Tremblay so she realizes my feelings, and I think, to a great part, for some of my colleagues and their feelings. We live in a country that makes us great because of understanding, tolerance, and individuality. That's what the whole mosaic is about and what makes it so great.

More specifically to some of the questions—this is my third part—Ms. Riley, you made a comment earlier on. I might have missed part of it when I was writing it down, but it was the function of the committee or one of the roles of the committee with regard to assessing whether or not governments should have a role to play in the arts.

Certainly, as I've sat here throughout the months, that's not the position I take. I don't believe that's the position taken by my government or for that matter, the opposition parties. It's not a question of whether or not we're going to support it; it's going to be how we're going to support it. Certainly the question is not whether or not government is going to play a role financially; it's a question of how to best do that.

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: I'm very glad to hear that. When I was challenging this committee to make an explicit commitment, it's just that fewer than three years ago, during an exercise that I think was called program review, there were some very uncomfortable moments from the point of view of somebody sitting in the arts community. I think I didn't say it explicitly, but I think I meant to say that we would urge this committee to urge the government to make a commitment to protect and nurture the arts, which I guess would suggest that it would exempt it from program review another time when those pressures may come.

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Mr. Paul Bonwick: I just wanted you to understand my perspective. I'm not participating in this committee to decide on the “whether or not” or the “how”.

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: No.

Mr. Paul Bonwick: I think that's certainly the feeling among all parties represented today.

Ms. Jean Thérèse Riley: Yes.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: That's well said.

Mr. Paul Bonwick: Excuse me, I just made some notes as you've been going along here. We heard the comments, certainly Winston Churchill's comments as well. I was just writing along as Mr. Cripton was speaking. I think it boils down to looking at where the government prioritizes its identity in terms of the things that made us what we are and the things that will make us what we are going to be. That's the question the committee will struggle with.

You touched on some of the areas of the country, Ms. Morrow, that you contacted in the Northwest Territories. You have done some first peoples plays. Those are extremely important to the cultural mosaic of the entire country. I don't want to take away from that, but there are also areas in central Ontario, in southern Alberta, and in the middle of Quebec. These are small communities of 8,000 or 10,000 people.

I'm wondering if you might inform me of what strategies you have in place to make sure we're encouraging or stimulating the next Brian MacDonald of the world to come along and make sure the next generation has the same opportunities regardless of region.

Ms. Joanne Morrow: You've asked a very important question, because it's a big challenge to keep the arts council very vibrant and alert to new developments all across the country, which sometimes are not easy to become aware of. We do a number of activities to try to counteract this, because we have a clear objective to do what you're asking to be done.

The first thing we do is have our programs organized into the art forms and into teams of people that are specialized in those art forms: music, theatre, dance, and so on. We give them a travel budget. We tell them to go into these regions and get connected. We do this through other funders, but we also do it through the artists and networking. Each talented professional person who works for the Canada Council is charged to have a network that is connected into the regions.

The second way we do it is by juries. I mentioned there were a thousand artists from all across Canada in last year's juries. Very often, these artists meet each other for the first time. They may be leaders in their field. Let's say a fine craftsperson from British Columbia meets a fine craftsperson from northern Quebec for the first time, even though they may know each other's names and reputations. We use these forums for ideas to generate other ways to go back to talk about what's happening and bring information into the regions where the peer communities live.

But I would have to say that with a diverse and huge country that Canada is, it is a question of constantly renewing our will to do this. We have workshops, information sessions. We have outreach strategies. We have a tape we just did in the Inuktitut language for the radio in northwestern Canada because there it's just not practical to actually physically have the officers.

So we try to do this type of outreaching on many fronts, but we have to be motivated and alert and determined to do it.

Mr. Paul Bonwick: Is there time for one more? No.

The Chairman: No, I think time is running.

[Translation]

Ms. Tremblay, you wish to ask a brief question?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: No. Weren't we to discuss certain points?

The Chairman: Yes, you're right.

[English]

Mr. Stoffer, you asked me for a brief one.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I still have lots of questions.

[English]

The Chairman: Very briefly.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: I have a very quick question. With the—

The Chairman: Is it on behalf of your coalition there?

Mr. Peter Stoffer: Yes, Mark and I.

We've heard a lot of talk here this morning about asking corporations to be more involved financially. Is there not a danger—I ask this question out of ignorance—that you could have a creeping corporate influence within the council itself?

For example, say I was with GM. Say I gave a whole bunch of money and I wanted my particular—

Mr. John Cripton: To universities, you mean?

Mr. Peter Stoffer: —person on the council or this vision of an art or theatre. Is there not a danger of that creeping corporate influence within the decision-making of the council and the arts centre?

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Dr. Shirley Thomson: It certainly wouldn't happen within the Canada Council, where we're very aware of that influence. We would not look at tied gifts in any way.

Mr. Peter Stoffer: Okay.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: It's the excellence of the artistic project that dictates our reaction, so there would not be a problem there.

My experience in accepting corporate gifts, certainly at the National Gallery, was that no attempt whatsoever was made on the part of corporations to influence the content of whatever exhibition. So sometimes too that is greatly exaggerated in terms of arts organizations, but perhaps John or François has a comment.

Mr. François Gilbert: It may happen. You talked about the United States some time ago. If I can add some arguments, first, in the United States corporations are a lot larger than in Canada. Second, the mentality of businessmen there is very different from that of Canadian businessmen. That's why our concern about young audiences also means that in the long term, maybe we'll influence our deciders.

From the example I could tell you, yes, there's a danger, because in the United States, because of this big money from corporations, some big corporations ask for specific shows and they bill, for example, collections.

I've heard that. You know more than I do about that.

Dr. Shirley Thomson: Oh, sure, collections, but that's a different thing.

Mr. François Gilbert: They decided to tour this specific artist and not the other one, and they were making the artistic decision.

Mr. John Cripton: Mr. Chairman, could I just make one small point to close off? It's very brief.

The Chairman: Yes, it will have to very brief, because we have some items of business.

Mr. John Cripton: I just want to inform this committee that perhaps we should think of our cultural life in Canada as being not solid but rather fragile, and we are all trying to protect it. The way Quebec is trying to protect its own culture, Canada as a whole is trying the same thing in a much bigger environment. We would look forward to working together. All parties, we hope, would work together to consider the fragility of the Canadian culture on the international scene.

The Chairman: It's been very well said. In fact perhaps one area we would be interested in looking at, if you can submit ideas to us, is the whole issue of inciting foundations to be created and built up. In the United States that's one side of it, where they build up foundations on a non-profit basis so it leaves this arm's-length relationship with the arts and environment and the other mission values.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman: Yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Though perhaps we should think about encouraging initiatives by corporations and businesses, attention should nevertheless be drawn to the effort made by several businesses, including Le Théâtre Alcan, which has existed for many years and which made it possible to produce an absolutely fantastic opera here, among other things. The corporations have made their efforts and they must be recognized.

The Chairman: Very well said. I wish to thank you very sincerely for your presence here today. It has been one of the most inspiring and interesting sessions of our committee.

[English]

I think all our members have been really challenged and inspired by you. It's been a very worthwhile session. Even the NDP and the Conservatives are getting together as a result.

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Chairman: We really appreciate your presence here. We'd like to thank you very specially.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Thank you all.

We have a few items of business, just very briefly, if you don't mind, if you can stay for two minutes.

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The Chairman: We are going to adjourn the committee business from this point on, because the House will probably prorogue tomorrow, so there won't be any meetings next week. There are eight institutions or associations still to be heard; we'll do this in September.

I suggest we do travelling from the middle of October to November, with a report at the end of year, in December. In the meanwhile, I've already asked our new researcher, Mr. Blais, to do a summary of evidence of what has happened to date. He will do this during the summer and it will be sent to you before the resumption of the next session so you can read through it and get a caption of it. There will be benchmarks in there. We'll set out the main—

The Clerk of the Committee: There has to be a summary for each meeting.

The Chairman: Yes, a summary of each meeting, which will be a summary of evidence.

Finally, one last item, a culture summit will be taking place. Mrs. Copps has invited various ministers.

[Translation]

Ms. Tremblay asked me to see Ms. Copps to ask her whether the members of the committee would be invited. I talked about it to Ms. Copps, and she's going to let us know how we'll be involved. She thinks she's going to invite us to the reception and dinner which all the ministers will attend. However, she doesn't know what the mechanism of the meeting itself will be. It's simply a matter of room. She's inviting all the provincial ministers and she doesn't know how many spots will be available. I may have to represent the committee or something like that. She's going to let me know. I'm making the request on behalf of Ms. Tremblay. I'm going to let you know very soon. Thank you very much.

[English]

Mr. Mark Muise: This is my first time sitting on a committee, and since this is probably our last meeting, I'd just like to say it's been a pleasure. I've never had the opportunity to work on a committee, and it was a pleasure working with the group. There was absolutely never a time I felt partisanship.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: And you have a great chair.

Mr. Mark Muise: Well, that helps, I have to say.

So Mr. Chairman, that's my comment.

The Chairman: It's mutual.

Mr. Mark Muise: Thank you.

The Chairman: The meeting is adjourned.