SRID Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

SOUS-COMITÉ DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT INTERNATIONAL DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, November 3, 1999

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[English]

The Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.): I call to order the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

I know that others are coming. I may be the only one who has a copy of an agenda here, primarily because it was just drawn up yesterday afternoon. We'll just discuss some of the things that we had gone over and that had been decided and then we'll have the other ideas.

The main committee will do the hearings on Colombia and Sudan; I think we generally agreed that in main committee. The new CIDA president, Len Good, will appear before the main committee on November 25. So if those were issues this committee had wanted to look at, perhaps we can put them away until they've been dealt with by the main committee. I am sure we will be satisfied with that approach.

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Now suggestions for future business. Those of you who were on the committee last year know that in the spring we had generally agreed that we would be doing a study of Africa and we would begin by having an African round table. It was agreed to earlier this year as a way to identify issues of interest for an African human security study. I think because of the number of people who would be involved in an African round table we should hold two meetings before Christmas, if that's agreeable to everyone. If people could provide suggestions for groups or individuals they would like to hear from, we would appreciate that. That's one issue.

The other issue is that I believe you have a letter from the.... I think it's been—

Mr. Gerry Schmitz (Committee Researcher): While you're still on Africa, you may just mention that there was a preliminary sketch done.

The Chair: Yes, that's right. It has been handed out again today for those who may have misplaced it last year.

Mr. Gerry Schmitz: It's been distributed. It would probably have to be updated, but it did indicate some of the kinds of constituencies that should be called upon to provide input into shaping a study and so on.

The Chair: Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): On the Africa study, I think we, as a subcommittee, did agree to do this. My recollection, having participated in the discussion in the previous committee, is that what we agreed to do is to have the round tables with knowledgeable witnesses who could perhaps help us to focus. There are so many issues in Africa, the witnesses would help us to focus on what we see as some of the key areas of concern, of priority, and then we would decide based on that what we would want to focus on. We had also talked about the possibility of travel after the round tables, and we would have a look at where the priority lies. I think that is what we had agreed to.

The Chair: Yes. I think that if we have two round tables before Christmas a common theme will probably develop out of them.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Madame la présidente, you mentioned two issues. One was African security, and I didn't get the second one.

The Chair: An African human security study.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: That's one. What is the second one?

The Chair: No, that was it. It's for Africa. We said we'd hold two round tables.

Mr. Gerry Schmitz: If I may, just for the new members, in the study plan that has been passed around, as Mr. Robinson said, as you will see in there, when Minister Axworthy appeared before the foreign affairs committee last February he talked about Canada and the Security Council human security agenda and suggested that one thing that could be very useful for the government would be to have the input of members of either the main committee or the subcommittee on the subject of human security in Africa. What are the main challenges? How can Canada best address them? He just threw that out there and said it's not his business to set the committee agenda but we would find that useful.

I did this thing, which was only a couple of pages, just a very quick sketch. And as Mr. Robinson said, members generally like the idea, but the proposal was to have a round table or two. As you'll see, at the end there are a couple of suggestions about departmental witnesses and the IDRC, for example. There are no NGOs listed there, but that's because we thought members would have suggestions as to which NGOs might be most useful. So that's why that has been recirculated; it's just for background. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you.

On the second issue, the The Canadian Council for International Cooperation letter has also been distributed. I believe it has been circulated. Has it been translated?

A voice: Yes.

The Chair: Great, thank you. They are having a policy round table on renewing Canada's development assistance and they are holding it on the Hill on December 7. The letter suggests that the subcommittee hold hearings on Canadian overseas development assistance.

A voice: That's for you to decide.

The Chair: Yes, it is for us to decide. Do we want to hear from the new minister, or do we want to hold hearings or a hearing in this vein? That's the second issue.

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I've had visits from the Friends of Burma, who seem to be looking helplessly about for some support. I'm wondering if we would like to have a hearing or a round-table on Burma as well, or just to hear from the Friends of Burma people to get an update.

That's what I have here. Now I am open for ideas and suggestions and discussion.

Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Svend Robinson: One other item was referred to the subcommittee by the full committee, and that was the issue of search and rescue and the Taiwan experience. Remember, they suggested that instead of the full committee dealing with that, the subcommittee could do perhaps a round-table on that issue. We could bring in the head of the Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue Team as well as the departmental officials.

Eugène and I were talking about this before. It would be good for us to get somebody from the department just to know, if there is some concern around cooperation with the province and city, what agreements have to be made and so on. If we could put together a hearing on that, certainly that would be quite valuable. I think the full committee did want this committee to have a look at that.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: The department is looking at the Vancouver group to address the question of an agreement with the City of Vancouver and the Province of British Columbia. That is in the works now. They're preparing documentation. There is a reference to the United Nations also that we would tie in.

So an update from someone from the department might be very useful. With anyone outside of that, you'd just complicate things by having interveners who may want to do this and that.

The Chair: Yes, you're right.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: We have to look at the legal aspect, because there are commitments that could be made or should be made. From the legal aspect and the financial aspect, who's responsible for what, exactly?

Of course some countries may want help, and some others may not need help. There may be countries where so many groups go that they have to turn back some groups.

The Chair: Yes. Well, how do you feel about that? This is a little broader than what we're talking about here.

I want you to keep in mind that we have six Wednesdays until we break for Christmas. It's my opinion that it would be a good idea to get the two round-tables on Africa in before Christmas. No matter what, we have to get them in. And we have to see how many other issues we can work around as well.

Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Svend Robinson: I recognize the time constraints, but if we're going to have a round-table on the search and rescue issue, specifically looking at Taiwan, Eugene is absolutely right—we want to have the departmental people here who can bring us up to date on what's happening—but it seems to me we also should bring in the head of the team. He's been in touch with my office. He's quite interested in participating in a discussion on this. As well, we should bring in someone from the Taiwanese community. That would make a good and useful session.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I don't agree with that. We could have someone from the department give us an information session on the status of that particular group in Vancouver that would like to be recognized officially by the Canadian government to go on search and rescue activities. We shouldn't be getting involved in meeting individuals who want to promote their own activities to this committee and having people with their own personal agendas come here. Then the whole thing becomes political. First let's find out from the department what the ramifications are.

An hon. member: I agree with that.

[Translation]

Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): I'd like to say a few words about the Burma issue. I too met with the Friends of Burma group. Regardless of what our colleague Mr. Bellemare says, there are number of burning issues around the world, but the case of Burma seems especially horrific. If my memory serves me correctly, a well-orchestrated genocide seems to be under way. In any event, the situation appears very grave indeed.

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I'm pleased that you brought this matter up because I wasn't sure what forum would be the most appropriate place to initiate a discussion and to see how members could work to heighten public awareness of the issue. Such a debate would be a golden opportunity to express our concerns and to ensure that Canadian and Quebeckers are made more aware of the situation in this country.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Robinson, we'll get back to search and rescue in just a second.

With regard to the Burma issue, since many of us are a little foggy on what Canada's position is toward Burma in the way of trade and normalizing relationships, it might be nice if we could have as well someone from the Department of Foreign Affairs come and speak to us.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Maybe they could come at the same time.

The Chair: Yes. Mr. Robinson, you wanted to....

Mr. Svend Robinson: We also met with the Friends of Burma, and I support the suggestion that we have a session on that. Actually, by my reckoning we have only five sessions between now and the Christmas break.

The Chair: You're right. Do you mean you won't be back here next Wednesday for our meeting?

Mr. Svend Robinson: I don't intend to. I don't know about you. I'll be in my riding on Remembrance Day, or the next day, in any event.

So we have two sessions on Africa and a session with the Friends of Burma.

Presumably, members will be participating in the session on ODA on December 7. I'm wondering if it might make some sense for us to ask the minister to come the day after, December 8. We would have had a good session on ODA on the previous day, and we would have heard from the various NGOs and so on. If we had an opportunity to meet with the minister on December 8, the next day, I think that would be a productive meeting.

The Chair: Is it agreed that we'll ask the minister to come?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: Okay, that's great.

Mr. Svend Robinson: On search and rescue, I disagree strongly. I think we should hear from the people who are directly involved. It's not just the government that's involved in this. It's also—

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Yesterday he talked about China—

The Chair: Order.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Hold on. You had the floor. You're welcome to respond.

There was widespread concern in the lower mainland of British Columbia, particularly among the Taiwanese-Canadian community, about the fact that Canada did not send the Vancouver urban search and rescue team. Many other countries sent them. The team itself did not understand why they weren't sent. I certainly don't understand. The Taiwanese community sent a very strongly worded letter to Lloyd Axworthy voicing their anger that this happened. The team is well qualified. We want to know, and I'm speaking now on behalf of that community, why the team wasn't sent, and we want to make sure this doesn't happen again.

We can certainly call the representative of the department. But I just want to make it very clear that following that person's evidence, it's very likely I'll be suggesting that we then follow up with a meeting with representatives from the search and rescue team and the Taiwanese community. But for now we'll call the department and see what they have to say.

The Chair: Do you think that is—I'm searching for words here—for more therapeutic purposes? Could you not pose these questions, and by having the department here, could we not get the same answers and get to the bottom of it as well?

Mr. Svend Robinson: The department is there on behalf of the government. There is another perspective besides that of the government. There's the perspective of the team itself, which on three different occasions now has been prepared to go to assist in search and rescue and to get experience, which they need, and has not been called. It's not good enough to say that the government can explain why they're not doing that. Presumably, as a committee we want to hear other perspectives than just the government's perspective.

I hear the Liberal members of this committee saying that they don't want to do that at this point. That's fair enough. We'll hear from the government, and then see where we go from there.

The Chair: Is that agreed?

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Excuse me, we're going to hear from the department, not the government.

Mr. Svend Robinson: But the department represents the government.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: In your mind.

Mr. Svend Robinson: If they don't, they're not doing their job.

The Chair: We'll hear from the department.

Are there any other issues or suggestions? Yes, Aileen.

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Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Madam Chair, just to make sure I'm clear on this, you suggested that if we had groups concerning the African human security issue, we could bring those groups or persons forward for possible round table—

The Chair: You'd just put their names down as suggestions, yes.

Ms. Aileen Carroll: Thank you.

The Chair: Okay. Is everyone happy? Okay, then I'll adjourn this meeting until two weeks today. The meeting is adjourned.