CITI Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA CITOYENNETÉ ET DE L'IMMIGRATION

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, December 10, 1997

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.)): The committee of the whole is now in session.

Thank you very much for appearing before us. If you feel that we're a little bit hasty today, it's simply because we have some great events that are taking place and I know the women are very anxious to go home and do their hair and their nails and everything else—

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

The Chairman: From the Department of Citizenship and Immigration we have Greg Fyffe and Joan Atkinson—thanks for reappearing, Joan—Anne Arnott, who has been with us before, and Bill Farrell.

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Mr. Fyffe, are you going to make the presentation?

Mr. Greg Fyffe (Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Program Development, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): I will say a few words and then I'll ask Ms. Atkinson to make a presentation.

The Chairman: Fine.

Mr. Greg Fyffe: Mr. Chairman, we are here at your invitation to talk about the temporary foreign workers, who are a component of a broader visitor movement to Canada along with foreign students and tourists. They have to meet general requirements, which will be touched on in the presentation. The requirements make sure they are genuine visitors, they are in good health, they are of good character, and so on.

Canada allows foreign workers to enter Canada on a temporary basis to fill specific labour market requirements, to meet international obligations, and to achieve cultural, social, and humanitarian objectives. Temporary foreign workers cover a broad range of employment, from seasonal agricultural workers to highly specialized and skilled professionals, including corporate managers, performing artists, academics, and youth exchange program participants.

Employment authorizations, where required, are obtained from Citizenship and Immigration Canada either in Canada upon entry to Canada or through one of our missions abroad. Visitor visas may also be required by temporary workers, depending on their nationality.

That's a very broad overview of what we would like to discuss with you today. I would like to ask Ms. Atkinson to give you more details.

Ms. Joan Atkinson (Director General, Selection Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): Today I thought I would do an overview of the temporary foreign worker program and the process, with a few statistics. We always like statistics and come with some statistics for you to give you some sense of where they are coming from and what sort of workers we are talking about.

Then I thought I would spend a few minutes talking about how temporary workers can fill a specific labour market shortage in the high-tech sector, and a little about our software development worker pilot project, a little about spousal employment, because I understand that is an issue the committee is interested in, and finally I would say perhaps a few words on the North American Free Trade Agreement and the temporary foreign worker movement under the terms of that agreement. I'll start with the overview of the temporary foreign worker program and process.

Generally the immigration legislation provides for the temporary entry of foreign workers where it has been determined that their entry would not adversely affect employment opportunities for Canadian citizens or residents and would not have an impact on the outcome of an existing labour dispute. There are three main processes through which temporary workers can enter Canada.

The first process is the validation process, which is a determination intended to respond to specific employer needs, in which we take account of labour market considerations. The second major process is a validation exemption process, in which the other considerations are looked at in place of the labour market considerations. The third method by which temporary foreign workers are admitted to Canada is through an exception to both processes; that is, an exception to both the validation process and the employment authorization itself.

I'll speak first about the validation process. This part of the program is where we work very closely with Human Resources and Development Canada. The immigration regulations require that before an employment authorization may be issued, the general rule is that an immigration officer must consult with a human resource centre, a local office of Human Resources and Development Canada, in the area where the job has been offered.

The approval or validation of an offer of employment is issued on an employer-specific and job-specific basis, and it is issued after the following sorts of factors are taken into account. The human resource centre looks at what efforts the employer has made to hire or train Canadians for the job in question. They look at the availability of qualified Canadians for the job. They look at wages and working conditions to ensure these are consistent with the local labour market, the provincial wage and working conditions. They look at the benefit a foreign worker recruitment will be for that particular company, that particular employer, and the local situation. They consider whether any labour dispute is in place at the time and in the place of employment. They look at the bona fides of the offer of employment. They look at the duration of employment.

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Once the determination has been made by the human resources centre that this is a job offer that can be validated, that then is transmitted to the visa post abroad. An employment authorization may be issued after the immigration or visa officer considers the qualifications of the temporary worker applicant and after ensuring that the temporary worker meets all the other security, health and other requirements.

In terms of health, like any other visitor, as we discussed last week with students, a temporary foreign worker may be subject to medical examination and medical requirements if they are coming to Canada for longer than six months and they are coming from an area of the world of increased public health risk. In the area of foreign workers, however, there is an additional requirement that if the foreign worker is coming to a job where the protection of public health is essential, then, regardless of where they're coming from and how long they're coming for, a medical examination is required. These would be occupations in the medical health field, child care, and other such occupations.

The second process by which a temporary worker can come to Canada is through the validation exemption process. As I said before, the general rule is that before an employment authorization may be issued an immigration officer has to consult with the human resource centre to ensure that all of the factors in terms of impact on the labour market have been met. In the validation exemption situation we look at other factors, alternate factors, rather than looking directly at the impact on the labour market of bringing in this individual foreign worker.

Those factors include things such as international agreements that we have signed with other countries where there is provision for the entry of temporary workers. We look at whether the employment of that temporary worker will maintain or create significant economic benefits or opportunities for other Canadians. We look at situations where we have reciprocal agreements or reciprocal arrangements where the employment of that temporary worker will result in employment opportunities for Canadians overseas. Finally, we look at situations where allowing a person to work without validation allows us to fulfil our humanitarian and compassionate objectives.

There are over 40 such validation exemption categories in our immigration regulations, and they are outlined within regulations and guidelines. These range from occupations such as performing artists to student and young worker exchange programs done on the basis of reciprocity, after-sales service personnel where there will be a significant economic benefit created as a result of this individual coming to Canada in order to provide the after-sales service, academics and graduate assistants, North American Free Trade Agreement professionals where again there is a reciprocal situation, and persons in Canada who are awaiting the determination of their refugee status. In those cases we do not require a validation. It fulfils our humanitarian and compassionate objectives by issuing employment authorizations without making employers go through the validation process.

In this situation of validation exemption, an employment authorization may be issued where the visa or immigration officer is satisfied that the temporary worker applicant meets the requirements of the job and obviously meets the other requirements as we've stated above. So there is no need to go through the validation and the human resources centre process.

The third way is an exemption to both processes; that is, an exemption to getting validation and an exemption to getting the employment authorization itself. Those are workers generally where international freedom of movement is considered to be essential. These persons usually represent a foreign company or an organization, so they are not competing with Canadians. Examples of the exemption from both validation and employment authorization are foreign diplomats coming on a posting, clergymen coming to fulfil their religious duties, representatives coming to Canada to sell goods—not to the general public—and employees of an organization coming to consult with a branch of that organization in Canada. So these are situations where it makes sense to allow these people to cross the border and come into Canada without the need for validation.

On the third page of the handout that we passed around we have some statistics that give you some indication of the scope of the program, the types of employment authorizations that we issue and where they're coming from.

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You'll see that in 1996 we issued over 168,000 employment authorizations, and 73% of them were issued through the validation exemption process; that is, where immigration or visa officers made the determination that the individual was going to a job that fell within one of those validation exemption situations.

In terms of the validation exemption, the next set of statistics provides you with a break-down of the top ten validation exemption situations. So you can see that a significant proportion of those are employment authorizations that are issued in Canada to refugee claimants and applicants for landing from within Canada. Then we have situations such as students and young workers, performing artists, and others.

The last group of statistics shows you where our temporary foreign workers are coming from. Not surprisingly, you will see the United States at the top of that list, with over 45,000 employment authorizations issued in 1996. These statistics refer to both the first issuance and the extensions. An individual may be in Canada on an employment authorization and the employer may determine that he or she still requires that temporary foreign worker and will seek an extension. So this includes extensions as well.

It's not surprising to see the United States at the top of that list, given the North American Free Trade Agreement and given the flow of goods and services across the border. There's a lot of movement of people that goes with that movement of goods and services. So it's not surprising.

In terms of acceptance and refusal rates, again this is a movement that is generally facilitated. Globally, our acceptance rate for temporary foreign workers is 95% overseas. In Canada, our acceptance rate is 90%. So it is generally a movement that is facilitated.

I'd now like to spend a few minutes talking to you about how the temporary foreign worker movement can be utilized to address specific skill shortages in the Canadian labour market. I'm speaking of the software development worker pilot project.

As you know, the dramatic potential for growth of Canadian firms in the global information technology sector is outstripping the capacity of the current Canadian labour market to meet that demand. Workers with the skills that are necessary for Canadians to continue to compete are in great demand, not just in Canada but globally. We are competing with others for a pool of highly qualified and skilled high-tech workers.

The industry told us when they came to us that being able to admit the workers once they have identified them was crucial to Canada being able to maintain its competitive advantage in the global labour market in terms of being able to attract temporary foreign workers. So looking at the needs of the industry, we recognized that there certainly were widespread shortfalls in the labour supply to meet current needs. As always, we had to balance that with the needs of the labour market.

Working with Human Resources Development Canada, we wanted to look at a way in which we could facilitate and meet the needs of the industry while continuing to respect some key public concerns. Those concerns revolved around the fact that there are still significant numbers of unemployed programmers in Canada with outdated skills; there is a large demand among unemployed youth for entry-level opportunities and entry-level opportunities in the high-tech sector; there was a need to protect Canadian wage levels; and there was an overall need for us to assure the industry that while there were things we could do, immigration needed to be seen only as one component in a larger human resource strategy that the industry needed to tackle in terms of meeting its labour supply problem.

Also, we needed to consider the fact that while the IT sector's needs are perhaps exceptional at this point in time, they are not necessarily unique. Whatever we were able to offer to the IT sector, we needed to be able to have a system we might be able to transfer to other sectors that might be facing the same sort of situation. So that's how the pilot came about.

The industry's position was that the validation process, which I described as being the primary method by which industry was bringing in their temporary foreign workers, was unnecessary, because it was well known that there were shortages in this sector.

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Given the fact that we knew there were large pools of unemployed computer programmers with outdated skills, we had to look at this a little bit more carefully. Working with the Software Human Resource Council, a council for the IT sector that brought together industry reps, human resource experts and so on, we asked the industry to identify very specifically what their skill shortages were. As a result, through the sector council, the industry developed seven specific job descriptions that identified very specific skill sets that the industry felt were in the most demand, and for which they had the most difficulty finding the skills needed within the Canadian labour market.

Human Resources Development Canada validated all of these job descriptions at a national level. The effect was that for a high-tech company going out to recruit foreign workers, there was no longer a need to seek validation on each and every job offer and each and every foreign worker. In finding a foreign worker who met these specific skill sets, the job offer was considered to be validated, and an employment authorization could be issued quickly once all the requirements were met. The time we saved was very much in the very front end of the validation process.

As a result of this national validation concept, we have been able to enhance and improve the processing times for skilled high-tech workers quite considerably. Our statistics show that, at the moment, 75% of high-tech workers who apply under the pilot and don't require medicals are being processed within two weeks; and 90% are being processed within three weeks.

The pilot has been a bit slow in taking off, but because of the publicity it has been generating, we expect to see an increased interest and more numbers coming in. From the time the pilot was initiated in April until present, though, approximately 200 workers have come in under the auspices of the pilot. We're expecting to see an increase in those numbers, as I've said, but there have been some spinoff effects.

In terms of high-tech workers coming in through other methods in the temporary worker program, we have seen a significant increase. By the end of 1997, we expect to have approximately 3,000 high-tech workers—people coming in in the computer and software area—coming to Canada through the temporary foreign worker program.

We think the pilot is making progress in terms of responding to the needs of the industry. We have extended it until the end of March 1998 in order to give us enough time to do a proper evaluation of the potential problems and the success of the project, and so that we can look at it in terms of not only the high-tech sector, but to see whether or not we may be able to apply this same concept in other sectors in which there may be skill shortages.

One of the problems that has been identified in the course of the pilot and that has been brought to our attention by the industry is the problem of spousal employment. When a temporary foreign worker is admitted to Canada, he or she is admitted with an employment authorization that allows the principal applicant to work in Canada at that specific job. Spouses and dependent children may come with the temporary foreign worker, but the spouse is not permitted to work by virtue of being listed as a dependent on the employment authorization, and that causes problems.

Spouses may be able to work if they go through a validation process and get an employment authorization in their own right, as I have described. They may also be able to work in situations in which we have reciprocal arrangements with other jurisdictions and other countries. But this also causes a problem because, as you can probably appreciate, the kinds of highly skilled workers the high-tech sector, for one, is trying to attract in Canada are often from dual-income families. Both partners have careers, and they are both interested in pursuing their careers and employment opportunities. Having a situation in which the spouse cannot work makes Canada a less attractive place for some of these high-tech workers, even on a temporary basis.

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Our policy towards spousal employment has been based on reciprocity. That is, it provides us with a lever to seek similar benefits for spouses of Canadians who are working temporarily abroad. For example, in the context of the North American Free Trade Agreement we have been seeking for some time specific provisions which will allow for spousal employment on a reciprocal basis so that for the Canadians who are going to the United States or Mexico to work under the terms of the North American Free Trade Agreement, they too can have that opportunity to have their spouses work.

We've been approaching the issue of spousal employment on the basis of reciprocity. As I've mentioned, we have some areas at the moment where we do have reciprocity. There are very specific situations where we have reciprocal arrangements. For example, we have a reciprocal situation where spouses of Canadian teachers who go to Britain, Australia, or New Zealand under exchange programs can work and the spouses of New Zealand, British, and Australian teachers can work in Canada. We have been approaching it on sort of a case-by-case basis, but we hope to be able to pursue more reciprocal arrangements as the opportunity arises.

I mentioned the North American Free Trade Agreement, and I'll just end my remarks with a few comments on that. In the statistics in your handout you'll see that a significant proportion of the employment authorizations issued to persons coming from the United States do relate to the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Under NAFTA there is a reciprocal employment situation organized under four categories. We have business visitors, who come without employment authorizations; professionals, where there is a list of specific professionals who may work in each of the countries; intra-company transferees, which is obviously transfers between branch offices and head offices; and finally traders and investors.

In 1996 over 11,000 employment authorizations were issued to U.S. citizens and only about 171 issued to Mexicans. U.S. statistics, however, show that over 45,000 authorizations were issued to Canadians under the provisions of the North America Free Trade Agreement. So certainly in terms of employment opportunities for Canadians, there seems to be quite a benefit there in terms of the statistics.

I know I've given you a fair amount of detail in terms of the program, but that is in general terms how the program works. We'd be happy to take any of your questions.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Obhrai.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Thank you very much for filling us in and letting us know. I have a couple of questions here.

You have 23,000 applicants for landing and you have 22,000 for refugees over here in the figures you gave, the top 10. In terms of applicants for landing, what classification or what kind of people are we talking about here? This is the first question.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: Applicants for landing fall within a variety of different categories. Probably the largest number would be persons who have married Canadian citizens or permanent residents and are applying for a landing from within Canada. That application is approved on humanitarian and compassionate grounds; rather than forcing the individual to leave Canada we allow them to apply from within Canada.

Other humanitarian and compassionate situations would probably be the second largest category of applicants for landing in Canada. These would include parents and grandparents and other members of the family class. What happens in these situations is that there is a waiver of the need to leave Canada and apply for landing from outside. Those individuals are entitled to apply for employment authorizations and they're exempted from the validation process.

I would hasten to add that in these figures we're talking about extensions as well as first issuance. Within that number, the first issuance of an employment authorization could be for a year let's say, and if the application is still not completed we would be possibly extending that employment authorization. So 23,000 does not necessarily relate to the number of applicants for landing; it could relate to extensions to employment authorizations as well.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: So that 22,000 for the refugees is for the refugees.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: Yes.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: How does this number fit in with the total immigration numbers we came out with, the 225,000 people? How does this number tie into that one? Are we duplicating, or is this over and above those numbers?

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Ms. Joan Atkinson: No, in terms of applicants for landing in Canada, those numbers are factored into the 225,000. When we do the levels plan every year we also factor in the number of landings in Canada we expect.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: So the other ones, let's say students and young workers in performing arts and NAFTA, they're not part of it.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: They're not part of it because the immigration plan only relates to immigrants; that is, only relates to permanent residents, and all of these numbers relate to temporary workers, those coming temporarily.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: So what is the average duration of a foreign worker staying here, and how many foreign workers actually go back?

Ms. Joan Atkinson: The duration of employment authorizations varies widely because it is very much employer-driven, so it depends very much on the nature of the job the person is going to. It can be for three years in an interim company transfer situation where you would have an executive or a manager of a multilateral or multinational corporation being transferred to a Canadian branch or being transferred to the Canadian head office, going for a three-year assignment, and the employment authorization could be issued for that period of time.

On the other hand, you could have somebody coming to perform an after-service sale that is going to be two days and the employment authorization could be issued for a two-day period just to allow them to come in, perform that service and leave Canada again. So it's variable in terms of the length of time for which employment authorizations are issued.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: How many stay and how many go? How many stay here three years? Can they apply for landed immigrant status and then stay? What percentage of these so-called temporary foreign workers actually go back?

Ms. Joan Atkinson: It's a little bit like the discussion we had last week on foreign students. Some temporary workers may decide after they've been here for two or three years that they quite like it and that they want to remain permanently. In order for them to do so, they have to apply outside of Canada. They have to make an application at a visa post outside of Canada. And as we discussed last week in regard to the students, they may do that sometimes even while they're still in Canada on an employment authorization. They may decide to apply at the visa office in Buffalo, for example.

We would expect, for example, in our software pilot that some of those 200 people who currently have come in under that pilot program may decide they like Canada and may decide to stay, and it is entirely likely that they would meet our selection criteria as independent immigrants. But I can't tell you how many of those people take that route and decide they want to become permanent residents, because we don't collect those statistics on intake. When somebody applies for permanent residence, we don't collect statistics on whether they are a temporary worker in Canada or a foreign student in Canada or not. We don't collect statistics on what their status was if they had any status in Canada at all before applying for permanent residence.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: So we don't have any percentage to say on average how many will go back after they've done the job?

Ms. Joan Atkinson: No, we don't have any specific statistics on that, because of course we don't have exit controls, so we can't say how many people who have come into Canada leave Canada precisely. And we don't collect statistics in terms of people applying for permanent residence; we don't have clear statistics on that.

Again, for temporary workers, like any other visitor, we do an assessment of their bona fides before issuing the employment authorization and we have to be satisfied that at the end of their stay in Canada they will leave. We try to make that assessment before we issue the authorization.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Mr. Ménard.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): I understand that, when a worker comes from another country, his employment authorization is issued by a visa officer. You referred to some requirements, including the profession of the worker, his training and his skills, and the need for him to go back. Can you talk about the costs of getting an employment authorization?

Secondly, I was told about a practice which is not very popular in the cultural industry; I was told that you have increased the fee for an employment authorization rather inconspicuously, without giving too much notice to the cultural industry.

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I was flying in from Vancouver, an absolutely marvellous place to visit. I was sitting besides the vice-president of the Jazz Festival who told me that this practice, which was first implemented a few months ago, was not very popular because it was implemented without consultation and rather hypocritically, and that it could well represent several thousands of dollars in extra costs for cultural organizations. When a cultural organization signs up contracts and brings in performing artists or performers, or people who are downstream or upstream of that process, they often have, under the terms of contracts, to cover the costs of employment authorizations. I would like you to talk about this.

Thirdly, I was told about ministerial employment authorizations, which would be issued by the Minister as an exemption, so in really exceptional circumstances. Do such employment authorizations still exist and does the figure appear on page 10 of the handout under "Employment authorizations issued"? Do such ministerial employment authorizations exist as an exemption and if yes, can you tell us about them?

[English]

Ms. Joan Atkinson: In terms of the cost recovery, an employment authorization costs $150. The fee for employment authorizations is $150. There is a group rate for performing artists, and that group rate applies to groups of performing artists with more than three and fewer than fifteen members, and I'll explain the reason for the fifteen. That is $450. So a group of performing artists that consists of more than three people is going to benefit from the group rate because it's $450 regardless. Groups of performing artists with fifteen or more members do not require employment authorizations, so there is no fee charged for the employment for groups of performing artists with more than fifteen members. However, if they're coming from a visa country—that is, a country where they require visitor's visas—each individual in that group will be charged the $75 fee for a visitor's visa. So there are visitor's visa fees that may apply.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard: I am not sure I understood properly. An employment authorization costs $150 to the members of the cultural community, but for groups of 15 members or more, no working permit is required.

[English]

Ms. Joan Atkinson: That's correct.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard: So for a group of 15 members or less, there is a fee of $150. But you are saying that in visa countries, there is a fee of $75 to be paid by the visa holder.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: Yes.

Mr. Réal Ménard: So when members of the cultural community are complaining about a cost increase, that is what they are referring to?

[English]

Ms. Joan Atkinson: I can only assume that they are talking about the visitor's visa fees, for which there has been an increase. It was previously $50 and it has gone up to $75. There has been a modest increase in the price of the processing fee for visitor's visas. I assume that must be what they are referring to.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard: For example, is it possible that such exemptions exist in the U.S. and that Quebec workers of the cultural sector who perform there don't have to pay? Is this correct?

[English]

Ms. Joan Atkinson: I can't speak to what the American requirements are, but in terms of American groups coming to perform in Canada, if they have more than fifteen members, and since American citizens do not require visitor visas, there is no fee. They are normally processed at the port of entry.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Okay.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: Generally, for the performing groups of fifteen or more, they are processed as they enter, so they do not require any documentation ahead of time.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Okay.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: In terms of your last question, I don't think any of us are aware of a ministerial work permit or ministerial employment authorization.

There are minister's permits, which is a different type of document altogether. A minister's permit is issued to anyone who cannot meet the requirements of the Immigration Act or regulations. Minister's permits are issued usually by the minister's delegate. This means that the minister has delegated through instrument certain individuals who may issue these minister's permits.

There are processes in place, however, before a minister's permit can be issued. Generally the delegate cannot issue these minister's permits without going through an approval process that involves consulting with headquarters and so on. There is no minister's work permit or employment authorization as such. It is possible that minister's permits could be issued to people who are coming to Canada to work. That is possible.

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[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard: So the minister's permit is a truly exceptional measure, and I am told that the minister has a great control and that he or she is really reluctant to issue such a permit, or else only on humanitarian grounds or on a case-by-case basis. This minister's permit, which is a truly exceptional measure, may enable the applicant or the holder to work in some cases. Is this what you are saying?

[English]

Ms. Joan Atkinson: That's correct.

[Translation]

Yes, that's correct.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Chairman, I have no other questions, and I have to leave you. So I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, to you and your family, and to all the members of the committee. I apologize for having to leave.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Ménard. Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard: I also extend my best wishes to our guests.

[English]

The Chairman: We wish you the very best.

Madam Minna.

Ms. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Ménard. Joyeux Noel to you too.

I just want to go back for a moment. At the last Parliament the committee actually looked into some high tech. We did a little report, as you recall, and at the time there was a great deal of discussion about the problem of having the reciprocal arrangement and the spouses of some candidates not being able to work. I wonder, in this pilot you're doing, whether you have noticed how much of a problem, if any, that's causing. That came up as an issue. Some of the companies that came forward said it was a problem and they wanted us to look at it. From your perspective, is it a problem? And are you noticing it in the pilot, for instance?

Ms. Joan Atkinson: It's very difficult to quantify. The industry tells us it is still a problem, but I don't know if we have any concrete data on the extent of the problem. Industry representatives have not been able to tell us, for example, how many people have turned down offers of employment with companies because of our immigration regulations concerning the employment of spouses.

It's hard to get a handle on it, because I think this probably comes up in the phase when they're out recruiting and talking about what the opportunities are and what the environment is. It's a factor that comes up in that context, but the industry has not been able to be specific in terms of how many people it is losing precisely as a result of this.

Ms. Maria Minna: Have you asked them to try to look at that? Because it comes up every time we meet, so it might be an issue that's worth looking at.

Mr. Dougall Aucoin (Director of Economic Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): Mr. Chairman, this issue just came up. We have a steering committee group with the Software Human Resources Council to raise issues around the software pilot and where we could perhaps expand on the current model we have. That issue came up in recent discussions with the partners in that committee.

As Ms. Atkinson was saying, very often companies tell us it's at the point where they make their first introduction to a prospective client that they sometimes fail because the client knows automatically that the spouse will not be able to accompany with the potential of an employment opportunity. So it's very difficult to document how many cases there are at this stage.

We've been encouraging clients to have their spouses qualify for employment authorizations on their own if they're in professions that are in demand in Canada as well. They can either enter under validated job offers, or in certain circumstances they may qualify because of the significant benefits they would bring to the country or because of some other reciprocal arrangements they may have.

The department has been pursuing a general agreement with certain countries. At the moment we are in the process of developing a memorandum of understanding with Australia, which recognizes the benefits of spousal employment in the context of temporary workers.

We are also in active discussions with the temporary entry working group of the NAFTA agreement to at least see if we can pilot some reciprocal arrangements for spouses in some of the higher-skilled areas, particularly computer and technology skills. But these discussions have been ongoing for some time now and we have not been able to secure agreement of the parties of Mexico and the U.S. on these particular initiatives at this stage.

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Mr. Greg Fyffe: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I could add that in Washington, on a recent trip, the minister raised this issue directly with Mrs. Meissener and Ms. Reno so as to bring it to the attention of senior American officials.

The Chairman: So work is being done in that area. Thank you.

John Reynolds, you have one short question.

Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Ref.): I just have a comment and a question.

You mentioned that you don't collect statistics on where people apply from when they're doing it. Mr. Fyffe, since you're in the policy and direction area, it might be worth looking at, because in the long term, the more you can know about where people come and how they apply, it might help us in our deliberations.

My question is this. I had a gentleman come into my office two weeks ago. He's an entertainment promoter who has been bringing people from India very successfully over the years. He has never had a problem. As we all know, there was a problem there last year with one group that came in. They just sort of disappeared. Due to that, it has become very difficult for all the people who have been doing it very legitimately for a very long period of time.

He lost a fairly substantial amount of money because a lot of those people just didn't get approved. One lady—she was a feature star—wasn't allowed to come because she had a son who was two and a half years old and who always travelled with her. She had been in the United States 12 times. She had been to Canada lots of times, and there was never a problem. But that was why she was refused.

One of the suggestions he made to me was why don't they just charge a bond, so if there's a problem, there's lots of money for the government to use to go after them. He said that at least if they made a mistake, they wouldn't feel bad when they were turned down. Say you've been in the business for a long period of time. We all know what it's like if you have a private business. He's suffering this year because of somebody else's mistake.

I'm just wondering whether we looked at this idea for those who are temporarily coming here for entertainment. Our guys are having a tough enough time as it is. Americans get into this country very easily to entertain. Canadians are now getting a hard time at the border every time they go. Vancouver entertainers are saying they're getting turned back every day: where's your permit, or did you apply for this? These are things that never happened before.

Our guys are really suffering in that industry. I'm wondering whether there's anything we can do to help them. Obviously, in Vancouver, with our large Indian and Chinese population, there are a lot of foreign entertainers. They all benefit us. They might make $1 million, but we probably make $4 million or $5 million.

The Chairman: Mr. Reynolds, give him a chance to respond.

Mr. John Reynolds: I just wanted to get in my question and make sure all the points were there.

Mr. Greg Fyffe: We don't have an immediate answer for you, Mr. Reynolds, but I'll take a look at that to see what has changed and if there is something we can do by way of following your suggestions, either directly to the letter or in spirit.

Mr. John Reynolds: Thank you very much. Merry Christmas to you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Ms. Maria Minna: Just one quick one.

The Chairman: A quick one, please.

Ms. Maria Minna: You mentioned professionals that work under NAFTA in both Canada and the United States. Is that any professional, or certain specified professionals?

Mr. Dougall Aucoin: Mr. Chairman, there are 63 professions defined in the NAFTA.

Ms. Maria Minna: Okay, that's fine.

The only other question is this. In the report the committee did last time, it actually said quite clearly at that time that it was asking for government departments to take a look at the feasibility of spousal contracts because of possible problems. I guess that's part of what you were saying earlier. That's what we're looking at.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: That's right.

Mr. Greg Fyffe: We can go with the principle of seeing spousal employment as an advantage for Canada, which takes us in one direction, or we can adopt the principle of reciprocity and the obligation we have to Canadians who want to work abroad.

In the interim, if we can try to reach an arrangement with the United States, then we would basically cover both. I think that's what we'd prefer to try first.

The Chairman: Thank you very much for appearing before the committee. I'm sorry that we didn't have the whole committee here in order to grill you for at least another hour and a half.

Ms. Joan Atkinson: So are we.

The Chairman: Well, thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.