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Minutes of Proceedings

44th Parliament, 1st Session
Meeting 56
Thursday, March 2, 2023, 10:02 a.m. to 5:14 p.m.
Televised
Presiding
Hon. Bardish Chagger, Chair (Liberal)

• Pierre Paul-Hus for John Nater (Conservative)
• John Brassard for John Nater (Conservative)
• Larry Brock for John Nater (Conservative)
• Tracy Gray for Blaine Calkins (Conservative)
• Damien C. Kurek for Blaine Calkins (Conservative)
• Rachael Thomas for Blaine Calkins (Conservative)
• Christine Normandin for Marie-Hélène Gaudreau (Bloc Québécois)
• Iqra Khalid for Ruby Sahota (Liberal)
• Iqra Khalid for Mark Gerretsen (Liberal)
Library of Parliament
• Andre Barnes, Analyst
• Laurence Brosseau, Analyst
Canadian Security Intelligence Service
• Michelle Tessier, Deputy Director, Operations
• David Vigneault, Director
Communications Security Establishment
• Caroline Xavier, Chief
Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
• David Morrison, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
• Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister, International Trade
Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
• Stéphane Perrault, Chief Electoral Officer
Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
• Caroline Simard, Commisioner of Canada Elections
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
• Michael Duheme, Commissioner
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(a)(vi) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, September 22, 2022, the committee resumed its study of the foreign election interference.

Stéphane Perrault and Caroline Simard made statements and answered questions.

At 11:05 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 11:10 a.m., the sitting resumed.

David Vigneault made a statement and, with Michael Duheme, answered questions.

At 12:10 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 12:22 p.m., the sitting resumed.

David Morrison made a statement and, with Rob Stewart, answered questions.

At 1:30 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 1:40 p.m., the sitting resumed.

A point of order was raised as to the speaking order.

RULING BY THE CHAIR

The Chair ruled that Peter Julian had the floor.

Whereupon, Michael Cooper appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Greg Fergus, Mark Gerretsen, Peter Julian, Sherry Romanado, Ruby Sahota, Ryan Turnbull — 6;

NAYS: Luc Berthold, John Brassard, Michael Cooper, Christine Normandin, Rachael Thomas — 5.

Motion

Peter Julian moved, — That the committee report to the House that it calls on the Government of Canada to launch a national public inquiry into allegations of foreign interference in Canada’s democratic system, including but not limited to allegations of interference in general elections by foreign governments;

That this inquiry be granted all necessary powers to call witnesses from the government and from political parties, including but not limited to Ministers, former Ministers, chiefs of staff to the Prime Minister and to the Leader of the Official Opposition during the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns and national campaign directors for the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns of the Liberal Party of Canada and the Conservative Party of Canada; and

That this inquiry have the power to order and review all documents it deems necessary for this work, including documents which are related to national security.

Debate arose thereon.

Amendment

Michael Cooper moved, — That the motion be amended (a) in the first paragraph, by replacing all the words after the words “foreign interference” with the following: “by Beijing in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections”;

(b) in the second paragraph, by replacing all the words after the words “the government” with the following: “and from all political parties”;

(c) by adding the following after the second paragraph: “That the inquiry investigates abuse of diaspora groups by hostile foreign governments”; and

(d) by adding the following after the last paragraph: “That the individual heading this inquiry be selected by unanimous agreement by the House leaders of the officially recognized parties in the House of Commons; and That this inquiry does not impede or stop the Committee’s study on foreign election interference, including the production of documents and calling of witnesses.”.

Debate arose thereon.

Subamendment

Christine Normandin moved, — That the amendment be amended by removing paragraph (a).

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Christine Normandin and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Peter Julian, Christine Normandin — 2;

NAYS: Luc Berthold, John Brassard, Michael Cooper, Greg Fergus, Mark Gerretsen, Tracy Gray, Sherry Romanado, Ruby Sahota, Ryan Turnbull — 9.

Debate resumed on the amendment of Michael Cooper.

At 4:10 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 4:27 p.m., the sitting resumed.

The debate resumed.

By unanimous consent, the committee reconsidered the subamendment of Christine Normandin which read as follows:

That the amendment be amended by removing paragraph (a).

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Christine Normandin and it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Greg Fergus, Peter Julian, Iqra Khalid, Christine Normandin, Sherry Romanado, Ruby Sahota, Ryan Turnbull — 7;

NAYS: Luc Berthold, Larry Brock, Michael Cooper, Tracy Gray — 4.

Debate resumed on the amendment of Michael Cooper.

Subamendment

Peter Julian moved, — That the amendment be amended by replacing the words “and from all political parties” with the words “and from political parties”.

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Peter Julian and it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Luc Berthold, Michael Cooper, Greg Fergus, Peter Fragiskatos, Tracy Gray, Peter Julian, Iqra Khalid, Christine Normandin, Sherry Romanado, Ruby Sahota, Ryan Turnbull — 11;

NAYS: — 0.

The question was put on the amendment of Peter Julian, as amended, and it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Luc Berthold, Larry Brock, Michael Cooper, Tracy Gray, Peter Julian, Christine Normandin — 6;

NAYS: Greg Fergus, Peter Fragiskatos, Iqra Khalid, Sherry Romanado, Ryan Turnbull — 5.

The question was put on the motion, as amended, and it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Luc Berthold, Larry Brock, Michael Cooper, Tracy Gray, Peter Julian, Christine Normandin — 6;

NAYS: Greg Fergus, Peter Fragiskatos, Iqra Khalid, Sherry Romanado, Ryan Turnbull — 5.

The motion, as amended, read as follows:

The motion, as adopted, read: That the committee report to the House that it calls on the Government of Canada to launch a national public inquiry into allegations of foreign interference in Canada’s democratic system, including but not limited to allegations of interference in general elections by foreign governments;

That this inquiry be granted all the necessary powers to call witnesses from the government and from political parties;

That this inquiry investigates abuse of diaspora groups by hostile foreign governments;

That this inquiry have the power to order and review all documents it deems necessary for this work, including documents which are related to national security;

That the individual heading this inquiry be selected by unanimous agreement by the House Leaders of the officially recognized parties in the House of Commons; and

That this inquiry does not impede or stop the Committee’s study on foreign election interference, including the production of documents and the calling of witnesses.

At 4:53 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 5:02 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Motion

Michael Cooper moved, — That the committee resume consideration of the motion proposed on Wednesday, March 1, 2023, which read as follows:

That, given further media reports from Global News, revealing additional shocking revelations regarding Beijing’s strategy to interfere and influence Canada’s democratic institutions, the committee, in relation to its study of foreign interference in elections,

(a) hold a third meeting during each House sitting week to accommodate this study, in addition to its meetings concerning its orders of reference related to the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act;

(b) hold at least three meetings, each two hours in length, dedicated to this study, on each House adjournment week;

(c) invite Katie Telford, Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, to appear alone for two hours by herself, within two weeks of the adoption of this motion, provided that she be sworn or affirmed;

(d) invite Jeremy Broadhurst, Liberal Party of Canada Campaign Director for the 2019 general election;

(e) invite Morris Rosenberg, author of the independent assessment of the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol (CEIPP) for the 2021 general election, as mandated by the Cabinet Directive on the CEIPP; and

(f) order the production of all memoranda, briefing notes, e-mails, records of conversations, and any other relevant documents, including any drafts, which are in the possession of any government department or agency, including the Security and Intelligence Threats to Elections Task Force, CEIPP, any Minister’s Office, and the Prime Minister’s Office, containing information concerning efforts by, or on behalf of, foreign governments or other foreign state actors to interfere in the 2019 and 2021 general elections, including the documents which were quoted in the various Globe and Mail and Global News reports on this subject-matter and, for greater certainty, those regarding Canadian Security Intelligence Service warnings to “senior Liberal Party staff” in September 2019 regarding Beijing’s foreign interference in the Liberal nomination for the riding of Don Valley North, provided that

(i) these documents be deposited without redaction with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, in both official languages and within three weeks of the adoption of this order,

(ii) a copy of the documents shall also be deposited with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, in both official languages, within three weeks of the adoption of this Order, with any proposed redaction of information which, in the government’s opinion, could reasonably be expected to compromise the identities of employees or sources or intelligence-collecting methods of Canadian or allied intelligence agencies,

(iii) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall promptly notify the committee whether the Office is satisfied that the documents were produced as ordered, and, if not, the Chair shall be instructed to present forthwith, on behalf of the Committee, a report to the House outlining the material facts of the situation,

(iv) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall assess the redactions proposed by the government, pursuant to subparagraph (ii), to determine whether the Office agrees that the proposed redactions conform with the criteria set out in subparagraph (ii) and

(A) if it agrees, it shall provide the documents, as redacted by the government pursuant to subparagraph (ii), to the Clerk of the Committee, or

(B) if it disagrees with some or all of the proposed redactions, it shall provide a copy of the documents, redacted in the manner the Office determines would conform with the criteria set out in paragraph (ii), together with a report indicating the number, extent and nature of the government's proposed redactions which were disagreed with, to the clerk of the committee, and

(v) the clerk of the committee shall cause the documents, provided by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel pursuant to subparagraph (iv), to be distributed to the members of the committee and to be published on the committee’s website forthwith upon receipt.

At 5:06 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 5:10 p.m., the sitting resumed.

After debate, the question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Luc Berthold, Larry Brock, Michael Cooper, Tracy Gray, Christine Normandin — 5;

NAYS: Greg Fergus, Peter Fragiskatos, Peter Julian, Sherry Romanado, Ruby Sahota, Ryan Turnbull — 6.

At 5:14 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.



Sophia Nickel,
Miriam Burke
Clerks of the committee