:
I'll start by saying thank you for your patronage. I'm sure you all fly Air Canada very often, and I hope you continue to do so.
[Translation]
Hello, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee.
My name is Fittipauld Lourenco and I am the Director of Federal Government Affairs and Ontario at Air Canada. I am here to talk about the potential Canada-Mercosur free trade agreement.
[English]
First I'd like to tell you a little about Air Canada and where we are.
In 2017, Air Canada transported just over 48 million customers, averaging nearly 132,000 passengers a day. We now offer direct services to over 200 destinations on six continents. Last year alone we launched over 30 new routes, and our team today is 30,000 people strong with 3,000 individuals hired in the last three years alone.
With a strong team, and $9 billion invested in a new fleet that will be the youngest and most fuel-efficient in the world once complete, and which includes new Boeing 787 Dreamliners, 737 MAX planes, and Bombardier C Series planes, Air Canada is well positioned to continue growing and strengthening Canada's position relative to business travel, tourism, and trade, well into the future.
With respect to the potential Canada-Mercosur free trade agreement, Air Canada supports such free trade agreements that allow for greater trade and, therefore, increased business travel and cargo opportunities between Canada and another country.
Air Canada has a strong presence in South America and in two of Mercosur's partner countries, namely Brazil and Argentina, as well as in many associate partners in the region. On the continent at large, we currently offer direct routes for passengers and cargo to Cartagena and Bogota in Colombia; Lima, Peru; Santiago, Chile; Sao Paolo, Brazil; and Buenos Aires, Argentina. While passenger volumes to Uruguay and Paraguay do not yet support direct routes, we continue to look at these as options for the future. It is also important to note that Argentina and Chile will have direct services beginning the first week of May 2018. This comes as a result of dedicating one aircraft to each city, creating two new direct routes.
Free trade agreements such as the one being considered by this committee foster the type of business growth and trade opportunities that support business and provide an excellent foundation for expanding air routes. This creates the right climate for sustainable air travel in the future. Ultimately this means better travel and business opportunities for Canadians abroad.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to any questions.
:
Good morning, Mr. Chair, and thank you, committee members, for the opportunity to come today to speak to you.
I'll say a little bit about the Canadian Livestock Genetics Association. We're a not-for-profit trade association of genetic exporters. Genetic exporters in this context means live dairy cattle, frozen semen and embryos, and, in the poultry industry, day-old chicks and hatching eggs. It also includes small ruminants, sheep and goats, live ones, semen, and embryos.
Our exports for dairy alone with the frozen semen, live cattle, and embryos are about $150 million a year worldwide, poultry is about $100 million a year worldwide, and then small ruminants are at $100,000.
The Mercosur region is a fairly significant region for our membership. Brazil is probably one of our fourth largest markets, so total trade in dairy genetics from Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay would be about $11 million. The associate members would be another $1.5 million. We've been in this region for a long time, and if anybody knows about the trade in animal genetics, it's very much reliant on animal health discussions, protocols, and negotiations to make this trade happen, because you're dealing in live tissue.
One of the concerns that we have is that we've noticed in the past that individual countries will use either the Mercosur rules or those of their own country, depending on what is more favourable. We see that a lot, and they won't even reply. We get a lot of market access issues around that kind of scenario.
We also have issues with many of these countries having unreasonable demands and a very loose interpretation of the trade guidelines that deal in these animal products. Most of that is stipulated by the OIE, the World Organisation for Animal Health, which has a list of trade principles that most countries follow and interpret rather correctly. Other countries use that same list as a book of trade barriers and just come up with any reason not to trade.
We also see a bit of a membership concern with Mercosur. Venezuela is currently suspended. In the past, they suspended Paraguay. I don't know how you get into trade negotiations when members are in it, members are not in it, and all that stuff happens. Plus, they often utilize bilaterals amongst their own countries beyond their own trading bloc.
I want to comment on FTAs in general and what we see from the livestock genetics part of things. While we're very supportive of trade agreements and bilateral agreements around the world to move Canada more to the forefront, we also have some concerns that we don't see being addressed. That's everything from expedited trade dispute settlement mechanisms.... How do we make sure that we can resolve trade issues? We need committed animal health working groups to solve trade issues and SPS issues.
We often have the most difficulty obtaining market access with some of the countries we have FTAs with. Believe it or not, it's almost possible. We often question.... We get into these FTAs, but does it actually trickle down to more market access for us?
Then, finally, I have a statement. Canada does not have adequate resources at the CFIA in order to put in some of these trade agreements, to negotiate the certificates, or to develop the certificates for new trade. Now a lot of this has been downloaded to industry from these countries. They want to come to Canada to do technical tours and things like that. We fund a lot of that, or co-fund with the government, but at the end of the day, we do not have the people within the Canadian Food Inspection Agency to develop these trade protocols and certificates. If we can't maintain the trade we do have, it's really crazy when we get further along the line and open up new markets, shake hands, and do the photo shoot, but then there's no one left at home to put the package together and make it work.
Those are my concerns. Thank you for your time.
:
Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I want to thank you for this opportunity on behalf of the Mining Suppliers Trade Association Canada. I'm Phil Cancilla and I'm the President of the Board of Directors for the association.
My opening statement today will provide a brief overview of our association and its members, highlight some of the key findings from a study that we participated in showing how the mining suppliers are an important part of generating employment in the mining ecosystem, and finally, how Canada's engagement on free trade with the Mercosur free trade agreement is important to the Canadian mining supply and services sector.
MSTA Canada is the national voice for the Canadian mining supply and services sector, and for the past 35 years the association has supported its members in connecting them to opportunities to grow their businesses in the mining industry across Canada and around the world. In terms of government activity and decision-making, we hope to serve our members' interest under two guiding principles. The first principle would be the reduction of complexity and uncertainty in doing business through more efficient processes and a clear understanding of timely outcomes. The second principle is to have an increase in access to opportunities to do business. This can be in the form of opening markets or a reduction in barriers to trade. It is this second principle that aligns with Canada's participating in the Mercosur trade agreement.
Our approximately 280 corporate members are located across the country and supply the entire mining industry spectrum from mining exploration, resource development, mine design and construction, mine operations and refining, to reclamation and closure. Most of these companies are small to medium-sized enterprises. I will elaborate more on the demographics of mining suppliers in the second portion of my remarks. Overall it has been estimated that there are approximately 3,700 companies across Canada that consider themselves mining suppliers.
I would like to highlight one important aspect on our focus as an association, which is export. With Canada representing 0.05% of the global population and 1.4% of the world GDP, we are, by all accounts, a trading nation to ensure economic prosperity. It is with that perspective that there is great opportunity for the Canadian mining supplier network by just following the Canadian exploration and mining activities abroad, let alone international mining customers. In the mining industry, the “made in Canada” brand is recognized around the world for its safe, reliable, environmentally sound, and productive solutions.
I now turn to our study. The Conference Board of Canada characterized the mining services sector as a “multi-billion dollar, widely varied industry in Canada and around the world, yet it is a 'hidden' sector that is not directly measured or tracked.” To help better understand and clarify this hidden sector, MSTA Canada participated in a pan-Ontario mining supply and services sector economic impact study.
There are three key findings from this report that I would like to highlight here today. The first finding is that the mining supply sector is a widely varied group of companies that were grouped into three categories: 58% categorized as mining equipment suppliers and services, and 13% categorized as mining contract services. The two categories are what most people think of as typical mining supply. However, it is the remaining 31% that typically get overlooked. These are, for example, financial services, accounting companies, law firms, environmental services, and information technology firms. The second key finding is that almost 88% of these companies surveyed are categorized as small or medium-sized enterprises, and 70% reported exporting out of Canada, so free trade agreements are meaningful to the mining supply and services sectors.
The final finding I'd like to highlight from the study is in terms of direct employment. The mining supply and services sector represents two and a half times as many jobs as the mining companies employ themselves. This is an important point because, as mining is a great economic developer, the mining supply and services sector across Canada is and will be an important generator of jobs.
Our final point is directed toward the Mercosur free trade agreement that contains Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, and Uruguay. Brazil and Argentina are considered the two most important countries that the Canadian mining supply and services sector targets with its exporting and marketing efforts. We also consider Paraguay and Uruguay potential emerging markets for exploration and mining.
To help understand why, our research has shown that the Mercosur free trade agreement hosts over 538 active exploration and mining projects. In addition, there are more than 61 Canadian-based exploration and mining companies active within the Mercosur member countries, which have ownership in 27% of these active projects. This data shows why MSTA Canada encourages Canada to consider being a member of the Mercosur free trade agreement.
Thank you for your attention.
:
Thank you for being here today, gentlemen.
The Mercosur meetings have been quite unique for us in terms of trade. In the last two meetings, we heard from several witnesses from agriculture, auto, and steel that their sectors don't believe that the Government of Canada should focus or split the focus away from securing NAFTA negotiations by moving on to Mercosur in an FTA. They really brought the point that they consider there to be no real or substantive growth potential within their industries, and we're hearing that I think today from Mr. Hall.
Also, they raised the reality, and you did this as well, Mr. Hall, about Venezuela being suspended, and Paraguay, for various human rights and labour rights issues. Instability exists in the Mercosur countries, and it's likely to continue under the political climate, and the abuse of human rights would continue.
I want to dig into something that you said, Mr. Hall. You talked about unreasonable demands. We heard this from the agriculture folks who were here previously as well. I wonder if you can expand on what those unreasonable demands are, given the understanding that we have trade agreements with other countries where we possibly don't see those.
:
With respect to Delhi, Air Canada was operating to Delhi a long time ago. That flight unfortunately proved not to be feasible at that time. It was cancelled and I'm talking about years and years ago.
Air Canada is in a position now where a decision to enter into a market requires a number of things to be right. First of all, you need the right aircraft. The market conditions need to be right. You have to have the right types of passengers willing to purchase your fare at your operational requirement, your profit levels. That happened when we started purchasing the 787 Dreamliner. That aircraft provided us with the fuel efficiency and the savings necessary to do those long commissions in markets that are very price-sensitive.
With respect to Uruguay and Paraguay, we actually do carry quite a few passengers whose final destination is those countries. On their own, either through São Paulo or Santiago, and then onwards on another partner or other aircraft, we do carry a lot of those passengers to those countries.
Right now, however, there's not a sufficient amount of volume to dedicate an aircraft to cities in those countries, but as I said earlier, we do see passenger volumes increasing to those countries. Again, this is why these agreements are critical to that. When you foster that kind of growth in business and trade, travel and tourism follows naturally and that's where we would see the opportunity.
:
I had no idea how tough it was to be Air Canada.
Voices: Oh, oh!
Mr. Dean Allison: I'm lobbying for a Niagara flight, but I don't know if there's an airport that's big enough to deal with it.
Mr. Hall, from some of the other witnesses we've had, they're saying that Mercosur is probably not a priority. We obviously have the regulatory co-operation council with the U.S., which is obviously a program we continue to work on, knocking down these trade irritants. I hear from farmers saying that even with CETA, we have some non-tariff stuff we have to figure out.
I hear your CFIA.... It always seems like they're protecting us from the world versus the other way around. They're protecting us to make sure that all the stuff we get out in terms of timeline, in terms of what they're doing, obviously in terms of resources....
I guess what I'm hearing you say is that maybe we should be shoring up some of the things we're doing right now, because we have a lot of great agreements around the world. We hit most of the world in terms of markets. Am I hearing you say that maybe we should spend a little more time shoring up or working out the irritants that we presently have?
:
That wraps up our time.
Thank you, gentlemen, for coming. It's going to take us a while before we finish this report. We're also going to be potentially travelling to South America in the fall. We'll be wrapping up this report in the fall. You guys are welcome to have a copy of it, and we'll get back to you.
Thank you for coming. It was a really good dialogue and good presentations.
Colleagues, we're going to suspend for one or two minutes. Then we're going to go in camera to do some business for five minutes, and then we're hoping to get back on track for our next group of witnesses.
[Proceedings continue in camera]
[Public proceedings resume]
:
I bring tidings and greetings from beautiful, sunny Windsor. I'm from the Canadian Association of Moldmakers. Thank you for the opportunity today to be able to speak on behalf of our association to all of you. It's quite the honour to be able to weigh in on the free trade agreements and we appreciate the opportunity.
Most people don't know what a mould is or how important it is to the manufacturing industry, so if you don't mind, I'll take a few minutes to give you a brief overview of what mould-making is and how important it is to Canada.
The mould-making industry in Canada is approximately $2 billion in GDP. It's highly concentrated between Toronto and Windsor, with about 80% of our members being in that region, in that corridor. We have about 170 individual shops, which means we're quite clustered, but we're also fragmented, which is good and bad. Our average shop has about 60 employees. There are 11,000 employees directly related to the mould-making industry. It is heavily dependent on the automotive industry; about 70% of what we make lands in the automotive industry. The group is part of a larger group of about 1,400 companies. Basically, the entire infrastructure is about 1,400 companies and about $25 billion in GDP. That's what we service just in Canada.
What we've been able to establish is that there's no manufacturing industry in the world that does not have a mould-making industry, primarily because everything you touch—and I assume you've all touched something plastic today—has the mould-making industry affiliated or associated with it. That's why we're so heavily sought after. We're very highly technical, and not necessarily expensive but not easily replaceable because of the experience that it requires.
We've been in the industry for about 70 years in Canada. During those 70 years, we have grown into super shops and small shops, so it's very dynamic but a very large part of the manufacturing community.
I'll let Tim explain to you briefly what a mould is, because I assume most of you have neither experienced nor been in the mould industry.
Again, thank you for the opportunity today.
In terms of whether you've touched something plastic, you can look around the room and see lots of stuff. We basically take two raw pieces of steel, carve out two halves, put them together and squirt liquid plastic in between, and the components come out. We don't do the squirting. We build the moulds. As Jon indicated, it's very elementary. We buy components from around the world to incorporate into our moulds, and we're a very important part of the automotive industry.
With lightweighting, being driven from steel to plastic, there is more and more plastic being used in the world. That's our niche. Once upon a time, a mould-maker was a tradesman, an artist. It's now technical. It's done on multi-million dollar machines: five-, seven-, and nine-axis machines that remove the metal precisely. It's all computerized and is very highly technical. That's basically the nature of our business.
There were more moulds built in the world last year than the year before, and there will be more moulds built in the world next year than there are this year. It's a growing business and we are looking for opportunities. As Jon so well put it, we're one of a few areas in the world where there's a concentration of that, and our supply chain build-up has allowed us to be very good at what we do.
[Witness speaks in Mi'kmaq]
I'm Pam Palmater. I am from the sovereign Mi'kmaq nation on unceded territories of the Mi'kma'ki, which is most of the eastern provinces. It is an honour to be here on sovereign Algonquin territory having this discussion. Thank you for including an indigenous woman's voice on the issues of trade.
Keep in mind that in 1994, when the North American Free Trade Agreement was signed, it inspired a Mayan uprising in southern Mexico led by the Zapatista National Liberation Army for the specific purposes of the failure to address indigenous rights, land rights, and the protection of their women. They said it would be the death of them.
Sure enough, to this day, free trade agreements in which Canada has been involved show a huge divide between who benefits, largely transnational corporations, and who pays the ultimate price in terms of the environment, women. and indigenous peoples.
What I want to talk to you about today is indigenous peoples and their support of trade, but trade in a fair way, a safe way, and a sustainable way that does not cause harm to them or indigenous peoples in other countries. Given that you're considering this free trade agreement, there's a large number of indigenous peoples with the four member states, particularly in Brazil, which has particular sensitivities around some of their groups that are no-contact groups. Given the high levels of violence experienced by indigenous peoples in those countries from transnational corporations that are involved in trade, Canada should really take a step back and consider how it is not only impacting indigenous peoples in Canada but also indigenous peoples in that territory.
That being said, this country was founded on trade. It was founded on trade with indigenous nations and colonial settlers. That was something that was very important. In fact, the Supreme Court of Canada has acknowledged that there would not have been able to be peace or settlement in this country without specific trade protections for indigenous nations in our treaties. Those treaties are now constitutionally protected, and that means that indigenous peoples share jurisdiction over trade and trade management, unlike provinces and territories. That is a shared jurisdiction, and it's something indigenous peoples have been specifically left out of any say.
In addition to the failure to recognize the shared trade jurisdiction, there are also legal obligations. Section 35 of the Constitution Act protects inherent aboriginal rights, treaty rights, land rights, and all of the corresponding rights that go along with that. It requires, at a bare minimum, consultation, accommodation, and consent in the domestic context. In the international context, since this is an international trade agreement, it requires free, prior, and informed consent of the indigenous nations.
The fact that Canada is even considering another free trade agreement without any process in place to consult with indigenous peoples on the ways in which they want to be represented, and I would strongly suggest that indigenous women should factor very strongly in here, means that it violates Canada's Constitution and is legally challengeable. It's something that we have been working with indigenous peoples on in those member states, about coming up with another joint declaration to make sure that their rights are also protected.
In addition, Canada is made up of a large segment of aboriginal title lands. The Supreme Court of Canada has said very definitely that aboriginal title lands aren't about having the ability to go pick apples on a piece of territory. It is in fact exclusive ownership. That means indigenous peoples get to decide what happens on their territory, when it happens, and who benefits. If they want to get all of the benefit, then it is their legal right to do so. All the free trade agreements to date simply don't recognize that.
I will also mention, very quickly because time is limited, that all of the international United Nations experts and special rapporteurs on things like food, water, housing, democracy, judicial independence, peace and security, indigenous peoples, and women's rights have all collectively said that all of these free trade and investment agreements violate both domestic and international human rights law principles. They don't take into account protections for indigenous rights. In fact, they put them at greater risk.
I'll go through my recommendations very quickly, if you'll allow me just a few seconds.
This agreement shouldn't go ahead until there is a fair, open, and democratic process of consultation with indigenous peoples. Free, prior, and informed consent has to be the basis.
Human rights have to be the fundamental framework of all of these agreements, not a side chapter, not a mention. There must be specific and binding legal protections for indigenous rights throughout all of these agreements, not in a side chapter.
ISDS must be eliminated and not replaced with investor-court mechanisms that do the exact same thing as ISDS.
There has to be a rights-based, benefit-sharing formula with indigenous peoples. If resources and lands are going to be taken for the purpose of investing in free trade, then indigenous peoples should benefit first and foremost.
Finally, there must be a fulsome monitoring, research, and evaluation mechanism conducted by external parties to ensure that these free trade agreements, including this one under study, is fair, safe, sustainable, and outs human rights and indigenous rights first and foremost.
Thank you.
:
We see the whole Mercosur agreement as a potential for us to be able to export to Brazil. Brazil is probably the one partner that we're very interested in doing business with.
We see Brazil as similar to what we have seen in Mexico. If we're able to establish a beachhead early on in their growth cycle, we will be able to establish an industry that we will be able to export to on a regular basis. It's similar to Mexico, which is probably our number-two trading partner for moulds, so we'll greatly be able to improve our opportunities there.
To date, we have not been able to penetrate that market because of protectionism, because of tariffs. We believe that the opportunity is there. We don't believe that it's going to happen overnight. We will encounter protectionism continually. Trade barriers will continue to exist. We'll have to do education.
We do not believe that we'll be able to establish there early on, but it will be about exporting. Luckily for us, our product is very export-friendly. As I said before, it's normally very expensive and it's highly technical. We stand to take great advantage of that market because it's in its infancy in the manufacturing life cycle. The other partners that we see in the agreement don't necessarily pose as much of a threat at this point because they're not as technical. We believe that the opportunity is actually very good for us to continue to export to that market.
:
I'll be totally honest, and hopefully you can appreciate my candour. The opportunity in Canada to grow our market here is very slim to none. We see the manufacturing role in Canada continue to shrink internally, domestically. We've seen this over the years. We feel the same chill that we felt from some of the words that have been used when it comes to manufacturing.
Being chairman of the association, I have been promoting very heavily that all manufacturers, and specifically very highly technical ones, as mould-makers are, must have a global footprint outside Canada if they're going to survive into the next generation. It is essential to us to continue to be able to export our products. If it weren't for Mexico and their life cycle in manufacturing, I don't believe the manufacturing world in Canada would be the same, because as they grow, we've been able to grow with them.
I believe we are one of the industries that deserves a certain level of protection, because we are very export-friendly and not easily duplicated in other countries. If I can use the example of my own company that I manage, 90% of what I make is exported: 40% goes to the United States and 50% will land in Mexico. That is not unique. I believe that is typical for most manufacturers in our industry.
By your being able to make this free trade agreement work with Brazil, we believe that will improve our opportunities abroad. Contrary to some other agreements we've seen, such as the CPTPP, we believe this is the total opposite. We believe CPTPP is high risk and has low potential. Mercosur is, for us, low risk and high potential.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our presenters.
It's very enlightening. It's interesting to hear about an industry such as moulds that is highly specialized, and about the success you're having in terms of exports. We often hear about a race to the bottom, but our government believes in a race to the top.
When we have people who are highly trained and skilled, who are able to now compete globally, one of the things we've been working on very actively through our agreements, be it with CETA or CPTPP, is progressive trade agreements where we push towards looking at lifting all boats and bringing in higher standards. That means higher standards when it comes to the environment, to labour, and to increasing the participation of women and indigenous, marginalized communities.
One of the things we also do heavily is consult on these agreements, and that's why you're here today. In terms of the competitive advantage for moulds, you look as though you're doing great. You're increasing your trade globally. Where does your competitive advantage come from here in Canada? It sounds as though you're doing really well.
:
One is that it's not negotiated or signed without first nations at the negotiating table.
Two is that indigenous rights are paramount, that first nations have a direct benefit from all of these, and not just jobs and contracts, which is the usual throw-away that they offer first nations. I mean a direct percentage of what comes from their lands and resources, for any of those free trade agreements, and protections from things like mining companies.
Canadian mining companies, contrary to what you heard in the previous panel, are the worst, most dangerous, and lethal companies in this country. Those are the kinds of things that we need protections from because wherever there is development that feeds free trade, like the extractive industry, or what have you, there are higher rates of murdered and missing indigenous women, higher rates of sexual assault, and of course environmental contamination. None of that is costed into these free trade agreements, or accounted for.
:
First off, it literally has to be the federal government going to first nations, not the Assembly of First Nations, not political organizations, but the rights holders themselves, and providing information on what's potentially in these agreements, who benefits, and what the potential negative impacts are, so that they can make informed decisions about whether they want to be in or out.
In order to be out, there needs to be opt-out provisions for people with aboriginal title, for example, who don't want timber or minerals taken from their territory for the purposes of any of these free trade agreements. They need to be able to opt out if, after all their free and prior consultation process, their answer is no. The current said specifically, before he was elected, that no means no for first nations, and we expect him to live up to that. Nowhere is that more important than in these international free trade agreements.
There are first nation experts who work on international trade issues, who work on the legal issues, who would be more than able to do this. Certainly, doing a token political appointment of the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations on an advisory committee to a minister who doesn't even attend the free trade negotiations is not what we're talking about when we're talking about direct participation and decision-making.
I also want to correct the.... I'm not sure what my colleague meant by “many”, but I can tell you that it's been less than 10 that we've seen across all the agreements that you mentioned, so it certainly hasn't been a huge proportion of representation.
So, welcome to the trade committee where we often have very different witnesses before us, as we do today. You can see how wide and diverse the issues are that we have to face when we're looking at these trade agreements.
I want to thank Jonathan, with Laval International, and Tim, with Cavalier. These are major companies. These are local job creators for us in Windsor-Essex, and I want to congratulate you on how you've been able to sustain the downturn in our economy. You've diversified. I think you're an example going forward.
I want to talk more broadly about trade agreements. We're here about Mercosur, where I hear you say that you have this potential. You see some potential going forward. I wonder if you could speak a bit to TPP and NAFTA, and what it is in trade agreements that you need to see for your future success in our region.
:
I would like to thank you for those kind words. It hasn't always been easy to try to be a manufacturer in Canada. We've had good times and we've had bad times.
We face a strong headwind with the sentiment towards manufacturing in Canada, which we do feel very strongly. I will say that, for us, regarding all of the free trade agreements, we still believe that NAFTA is the key. Mercosur is a good move. CETA is a good move. We believe CPTPP will show very little benefit to the small to medium-sized businesses, which is almost our entire industry, if not all manufacturing in Canada. We definitely say that, if you do not negotiate a good NAFTA agreement, all of the free trade agreements that we rely on, CETA, CPTPP, and Mercosur, will be for nothing. We do not see it changing our dependency on the U.S.
Currently Canada exports about 76% to the United States. We don't believe that any of these agreements will show any great move to moving the needle away from that. Whatever we continue to make, more than likely at least 60% to 70% of it will live and die by the United States. We don't see that changing.
We have spoken to the PMO's office. We could give you some advice. We need a good agreement in NAFTA. We could live with bad agreements in the rest of the world, but we need a good agreement in NAFTA for us to be able to prosper as a nation, and I won't change that sentiment.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
I appreciate your sentiment there, but I don't think it will come as a surprise that you're not the only one saying that. I think most people agree with that, for sure. Canada's economy, I think, will float or sink because of what's going on in the U.S., and NAFTA has a key role. I think we all agree. At least all the witnesses we've heard from who have ranked the trade agreements have all ranked NAFTA as number one, so we appreciate that sentiment.
I want to talk a little about your industry. We've had good representation of automotive people around the table. Of course, Ms. Ramsey is from Windsor, Mr. Carrie is from Oshawa, and I'm from Newmarket—Aurora, the home of Magna. It's good to see this. We always like to hear from stakeholders in the automotive industry like you.
I want to talk a little about advanced manufacturing. It seems to me that you guys are clearly embracing technology, but do you see changes such as 3-D printing, robotics, and things like that? Are you able to embrace that? Is that a threat to you or an opportunity? How do you see these technological changes, which are inevitable, as you know?
:
Before negotiations even start, the federal government has already consulted with first nations and gotten their perspectives and their consent on things like the annex list of what's a tradeable good. What should be on there? Most first nations would say water shouldn't be a tradeable good, so these are the kinds of things that can be dealt with long before you get to the negotiating table. That way you're not in a position of going back and forth.
The other thing is making sure you have consent or opt-outs for very specific regions, and they're going to differ. Different regions have different concerns. Some are fish, some are timber, and some are land. At a bare minimum, each of these has to go through an indigenous rights analysis and a gender-based analysis as part of that consultation process.
Then you're far more likely to get agreement, fewer legal challenges, and a trade agreement that respects a whole host of issues addressed by other groups. Indigenous peoples raise environmental issues, workers' rights, and safety. All of those things would be addressed and go a long way to addressing all of the social impacts of free trade agreements. As we know, NAFTA has been the worst for indigenous peoples in Canada, the United States, and Mexico.
:
I will definitely agree with you 100%.
The average employee in our industry is between 52 and 55 years of age. Within 10 years, we believe we will lose between 20% and 30% of our workforce. It is obviously a demographic cliff that we have our eyes on constantly, but it doesn't mean that we don't have things we're doing right now to change that.
I'll take an example from our own business. The average age in my business is 40 to 44. There are ways to work around that, but you have to take a very progressive and a very proactive approach by integrating women into the workforce and by penetrating the poverty barrier to be able to educate, to be able to move people out of poverty into highly skilled, high-paying jobs. Our industry is one that is very much reward-driven. By that I mean that an employee could, within a very short period of time, be making a lot more, and it's not based on time or experience but on their performance.
I'll give you an example. I have an employee in my plant who, within three years, was making the same as somebody who has been in my plant for 20 years, because it's performance-based.
We can take somebody with a short amount of education and turn them into a highly experienced and highly valuable asset to all these businesses, and highly paid.
Ms. Palmater, thank you for being here. Please, I'm just going to try to flesh out some of the things that you're saying, some of the ideas, and some of the confusions that I and a lot of my constituents have.
I'll use Ms. Ludwig as an example because I know she's a good colleague. In the last general election, first nations and non-first nations voted. They participated in the election. They decided who they wanted to represent them here in Ottawa. Now when we get to Ottawa here and we're dealing with trade agreements, she's representing not only non-first nations but first nations people. How do we square that with what you're saying?
When I go back to my reserves, or she goes back to her reserves and she asks, “Do you have any concerns about Mercosur?”, you don't get any comment. You don't see that as a highlight of the issues that they want to talk about.
How do I square that? How does that work? How do you see that working?
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That's a good point, because when you look at elections, the turnout was approximately 50%. Right across first nations and non-first nations, a lot of people would probably say the same thing.
We do the best we can based on the mandate we're given. We do present a mandate of policies going into elections, so we actually say, “Okay, this is what I believe, this is what I represent, and you can agree or disagree with me as you check the ballot.”
You talk about going in and consulting with first nations, and I agree with you. We need to do a better job of that. However, in the same breath, when I do a consultation in my riding, or when Ms. Ludwig does one in her riding, she makes it open to everybody.
We don't see first nations coming out to talk to us. Then we find out later that we've missed something or groups such as yourselves come forward and say, “You've neglected us; you didn't talk to us.” Wait a minute. The opportunity was there for you to come forward if you had a concern.
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At our own plant, we run 24-7. As there is a lack of available labour, we take our efficiencies and move them as far as we possibly can.
That being said, we're actually as flexible as possible. We have introduced flex schedules into our own facility because these people are so personally driven. There's a high level of self-confidence and pride, so we allow flex schedules. I actually have people who start at 4:00, 6:00, and 7:00 in the morning who work till 2:00 or 3:30 in the afternoon, so there's a high level of flexibility. Yes, there's a high demand and there are many hours, but we're able to give flexibility.
We run 24-7, so we run what we call a weekend shift. Basically, we run three days and pay 48 hours and they only work 36 hours, which is great for single mothers who are trying to raise a family while also trying to pursue a career. We're able to give them five days off, when their children are normally in school, and then they work on the weekends, when they have better support structures. Our industry is highly technical, but highly experienced. It's able to flex with people's schedules.