Hi, everyone. Thank you very much. My name is Erin Benjamin, and I am the president and CEO of the Canadian Live Music Association.
I'll start with a bit of an introduction. Our mission is to entrench the economic, social and cultural value and power of live music, creating the conditions for concerts to thrive in every neighbourhood, town and city in Canada. We were founded in 2014. We currently represent 225—and growing—concert promoters, venues, clubs, festivals, talent agencies, ticketing companies and suppliers, businesses and organizations who facilitate access to live music for fans as well as visitors from across the country and around the world. Our members are dedicated to ensuring that the overall fan experience is the very best it can be with each and every show.
Live music is a huge part of Canada's broader music industry. It creates tens of thousands of jobs and contributes billions to GDP. It has become the primary revenue stream for performing artists. Live performance helps artists to build fans and brands domestically and internationally. Its economic footprint extends well beyond the artist, promoter and venue, and into surrounding communities. Whether it's hotels, airlines, local restaurants, taxis or corner stores, many other businesses benefit from the economics of live music, while Canadians enjoy an enhanced quality of life thanks to the injection of the cultural and social vibrancy that live music spaces, places and people provide.
This is an amazing industry. We love our fans, and every single day we work to put them in the same room with their favourite artists, but there are times when often hundreds of thousands of people want to be at the same show at the same time, as was the case with the final Tragically Hip tour, for example. When we're talking about how we love live music, we're talking about human emotion and the rabidness of fandom. Demand can far outweigh the number of seats available. Just like any other hot product on the market, the value of those tickets naturally goes up. The commodification of concert tickets is consistent with how we as a nation desire and consume popular goods. The reality, though, is that we are not all automatically entitled to attend a concert just because we love the artist. No business or industry operates that way.
I think what is most important about the resale landscape in Canada is the reality that consumers don't always know how to “buy safe” when they're looking for tickets on the resale market, in particular these high-demand shows. There is significant obscurity in what we refer to as the “grey market”. It's ostensibly set up to dupe fans—and extract as much money from them as possible—into thinking they're safe when they may not be. The days of the dubious scalper in a trench coat outside the Gardens are pretty much gone now. At least he had a face, even if we never saw it again. Now it's the anonymous guy on Kijiji who seems nice but is selling you the 100th copy of a PDF bar code to that Taylor Swift show your daughter's been waiting to go to all year, only to arrive at the venue on the day of to be told that the ticket has already been scanned in and she is the 99th person holding the same piece of worthless paper. Let me tell you, this happens all the time.
Maybe it's the website that's skinned to look exactly like your favourite venue's box office. When you click “purchase”, though, you realize that you've been charged surplus fees in a foreign currency by a company whose exact location, let alone what country they might be in, cannot be identified. Then you look at the URL and you realize that it doesn't say, for instance, “Massey Hall box office”, the way you thought it did. Instead, it says something very close to that.
Maybe it's speculative postings, where you're urged to buy a ticket that doesn't even exist yet.
It is remarkably easy to be deceived. It happens even to the people who work in the music industry. The bottom line is that these deceitful and fraudulent practices are bad for the consumer, bad for the reputation of our members and bad for artists. They are just bad for business and no one wants that.
Thankfully, our members are actively creating solutions to build consumer trust and combat things like bots and bad guys. There are four key things they're doing to keep fans safe that I would like to underscore for the committee today. These are in addition to the fact that they are investing millions to fight the bot technology that's used to circumvent systems and scoop up mass quantities of tickets. They're also migrating towards the use of digital ticketing exclusively, in order to increase security and to help us know things like who is in the building.
The four things I mentioned are using ticket authentication technology, providing money-back guarantees, displaying all-in pricing and selling in local currency via secure online platforms, and listing the pre-sale opportunities like artist fan clubs, radio and venue promotions, etc., that exist to help fans better understand what their options are. Because not all events sell out, of course, these pre-sales can help an artist extend their marketing reach.
We need to stay one step ahead of the illicit market whose sole purpose is, again, to drive prices up and divert money to deceitful companies and away from the legitimate concert industry and away from our artists. This is a huge challenge, compounded, as I say, by a lack of public awareness about how to buy safely on the Internet.
Different jurisdictions in Canada and elsewhere have attempted or are attempting to find solutions through legislation; however, the ability to enforce and the unintentional consequences certain aspects of legislation can have on the genuine industry have proven to be highly problematic. They put Canadian businesses at a disadvantage and consumers directly in harm's way.
The answer is consumer awareness on this subject, and the Canadian Live Music Association would be very interested in working with this committee to explore options that amplify the “buy safe” message to help protect fans and audiences.
There will always be times when we want to be in the same room with our favourite artists, of course, but the reality is that not all of us can be. It's human nature. It's that rabid fandom, again, to do whatever we can sometimes to make sure that we are. That can include being prepared to invest in a live music experience of a lifetime at fair market value, no matter what.
The Canadian live music industry is here to help make every single concert experience, from ticketing to attending, as safe as possible for consumers.
I'd like to thank you very much for inviting us to speak to you on this important subject today.
Good afternoon. Thank you for inviting us here.
I represent Outbox Technology, a company based in Montreal that has been operating since 2006. We develop ticketing systems for arenas and theatres.
We are used to massive on-sales for big concerts in arenas and stadiums. We also have as a client, Cirque du Soleil in its worldwide touring shows, so we are present in multiple countries, including Canada obviously. We also have a joint venture with a promoter called AEG, Anschutz Entertainment Group, in the United States. We have deployed technology in their venues in the U.S., Canada, the U.K. and Sweden.
I have been in this business for 30 years, now as president of Outbox, but earlier as a founder of Admission Network here in Canada. We have been pioneering technology to make ticketing easy, as well as to try to limit the impact of bad actors in this business.
I've also worked for Ticketmaster, as they acquired one of our companies. I was their chief technology officer for three years in the U.S.
I am here to share my experience and answer any questions you might have.
Let me start by defining a few terms, the way we use them.
The primary inventory owner, the venue or the promoter, typically contracts with a ticket agency or a ticketing vendor to sell tickets directly to the public. That primary ticket agency is usually an exclusive provider of services to that venue in North America.
Secondary selling channels are different from ticket brokers in our vocabulary. They are platforms that allow sellers to reach buyers, to post tickets and sell to buyers, while a ticket broker is an entity that acquires tickets in bulk for resale, using these secondary channels, including their own. There is a significant difference between a secondary selling channel and a ticket broker in the definition.
B2C is a business, a broker, selling to the consumer, while C2C is an individual, or a presumed individual, selling to another individual. Some of these businesses are legal. For example, in Quebec, C2C selling is legal. B2C requires certain controls. You can imagine the interest in being perceived as a C2C channel.
I looked up the definition of a “scalper”. It's a person who resells tickets at a large or quick profit. In the U.K., they call them “ticket touts”, which is the same thing.
A fraudulent buyer is different. It is someone who purchases a ticket with an illicit method of payment, which will result in a chargeback by the credit card company and a loss of the revenue to the promoter, venue or artist after the show. Sometimes we can confuse “fraudulent buyer” with “scalper”. If they pay their bill, they're a scalper. If they don't pay their bill, they're a fraudulent buyer.
I will outline two big differences in the secondary market between major league sports and concerts.
In major league sports, there is a natural supply of tickets for the secondary market from the season ticket holders and the bulk ticket buyers, the brokers. There is demand for single-game tickets and limited availability in the good seats, so there is a natural meeting of needs between the season ticket holder who doesn't want to attend the 40 games and the single-ticket buyer who would like to attend one event.
In concerts, the demand for concert tickets frequently exceeds supply, so seats are not sold at the optimal price on the primary market, resulting in an immediate sellout and listing at a much higher price on the secondary market. There is a very limited natural supply of tickets to resell on the secondary market for concerts. Real fans who buy tickets want to go to the show. During on-sales, other actors buy tickets, often breaking purchase limit rules.
Let me briefly describe the sports market. I understand you're probably more interested in the concert market, but I think it's important to differentiate the two.
As to the market size for major league sports, for a typical major league team, the best estimates are that about 30% of tickets for any given game have been resold. It might be much higher for certain teams, but this is a broad average. The average markup can be as high as 60%, but as many as 50% of the tickets sell below face value. The image of Super Bowl tickets selling at 10 times their value is real, but in reality for a regular hockey or basketball game, half the tickets will actually resell below face value.
Sellers post tickets on multiple selling platforms. There are professional sellers who buy season tickets or buy tickets in bulk directly from the teams and use advanced tools to manage these listings across dozens of selling channels, often at different prices on different channels—the same ticket at a different price on different channels. The sellers pay a fee to the platform when the sale occurs and keep the “upside”—the difference between the value they paid and the value they sold. Sales tax is sometimes, but not always, paid and remitted, depending on the quality of the seller.
Buyers select a selling platform based on their experience, or often simple search engine ads. They pay an average fee of 10% to 15% to the platform that operates the selling channel. Therefore, there is a natural, “everybody gets what they want” sort of environment in the sports resale market.
The secondary market for concerts is different. Demand for big concerts exceeds supply. This is a result of the market not being at an economic equilibrium. Seats are not sold at the optimal price on the primary market, resulting in an immediate sellout.
At the risk of oversimplification, we see this happen for concerts for several valid reasons. One, the artists do not want to charge too much and disappoint their real fans who won't be able to afford tickets. Two, the artist wants real fans in the seats. Three, artists and promoters prefer a quick sellout, securing status as a highly popular event—bragging rights. Promoters would rather sell out quickly, eliminating any financial risk and stopping further marketing expenditures on the event.
As I said, there is a limited natural supply of tickets on the concert side. This is a form of arbitrage, the simultaneous buying and selling of commodities in different markets in order to take advantage of differing prices for the same asset—the definition in the 17th century. They try to buy beyond purchase limits and accumulate inventory to resell.
One of the roles of primary ticket platforms, like ours, is to enforce the rules of the ticket limits—the purchase rules—and stop robots. During major on-sales, up to 90% of online traffic can be robots. We have to stop them from blocking seats or buying tickets.
As a quick comment on robots and their intentions, we have to realize that they are not only used to buy tickets. They are also used to block tickets. As we sell tickets or reserve arenas, or reserve theatres, we have to put seats on hold for a few minutes for the normal consumer to check out. The robots take advantage of that and block all the seats that they can to generate a false sellout situation, forcing people to search again and find their platform to buy tickets on the secondary market, even though there are still tickets, presumably, available on the primary market, but they are being blocked by their robots.
This is a quick overview of our environment. If you have any questions, please go ahead.
I thank you for inviting us here.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank you guys for coming out and telling us a little about our problem. It's a huge problem.
When I was growing up, scalpers were underground at the site, so you knew who they were. It was easier to control and clamp down on them, but the digital age has changed everything. You don't know who you're dealing with, or which country they come from. Even if we change the technology, it always seems they come up with a way to get around it. That's been a challenge for many years. As we get better, they get even better, so it's always a cat and mouse situation.
From your perspective, what can we do, not only legislatively but as part of investing in the technology. I know many people who have bought fake tickets. The site looks legitimate. You can't tell the difference. All of a sudden, they buy four or five tickets for the family. They show up and it's so sad. It's a fake ticket. What kind of technology can we implement to damper that effect? What can we do?
Education is everything, but sometimes, when you're going on a site that looks exactly like a reputable site, that becomes a problem.
It's not a question of expense. I think it's a question of willingness to engage in that.
There is no fraud that I know of in tickets that you buy from a legitimate box office at major venues. If you buy a ticket from us or from Ticketmaster, you're going to get in.
The problem comes when you buy it from the secondary market. There, the only way to do it is to have oversight on the transferability. If you buy from a secondary market, they have to be connected to the primary market in order to validate that the ticket can be shared, it exists and it's valid. We do that. Ticketmaster does that also.
The technology exists. It's used in the major venues but it's not used everywhere, and it's not a question of costs. It's a question of education. It's a question of willingness to engage in the problem, to recognize the problem. It's not the venue's problem, in a sense. They didn't do anything wrong. They have to engage. They have to be educated so that they can engage.
On the consumer side, they should know better than to buy from Kijiji or whatever website. I've heard hundreds of times of somebody coming into the building and they can't get in. The person behind me, let's say, the husband, has the ticket. The lady behind says, “I told you, Sam, not to buy these tickets from that source.” I don't know how many times I've heard that. People know that they're taking a risk. In that sense, not all of them but some people know that they're taking a risk. Education on the public side is extremely important.
I don't know. I think I would disagree a bit with that. Artists don't like it when their fans can't get in the building, and also in fraudulent resale none of that money is being directed back to the artist. They're being completely cut out of the food chain, and that is not okay.
It's hard. Artists work with promoters and venues and their management teams to try to figure out the best way when it comes to on-sales and fan clubs to make sure the tickets are getting into the hands of the actual fans. It's tricky. There is a lot of pressure on artists right now too, and you're so right about fair market value. A lot of artists do not price their tickets at what they are worth. Look at the Tragically Hip. People were selling those tickets for upwards of $5,000 to $10,000 for the final show in Kingston, and they were getting it, no problem. If there had been another 100,000 tickets they would have sold. If there had been 200,000 tickets they would have sold. This is the supply and demand issue, which will never go away.
Actually, Taylor Swift is a good example of an artist who has leveraged the notion of dynamic pricing and has increased her ticket prices again to attract the real fans to make sure those tickets are getting into their hands, but to also decrease the incentive for fraudulent resale.
There is a lot of pressure on artists to increase their prices and they won't do it often, and then this is part of the consequence of that. It is something that the industry has to navigate and manage, and also I would say, representing the live music industry, we don't like it at all when money leaves the industry either. It's not good for promoters and venues.
It's a hard enough business as it is. It's one of the riskiest businesses you can be in. There are never any guarantees for the promoter. There is very little opportunity for them and they are incredibly entrepreneurial, in many cases, small businesses in this country who work really hard to connect artists with fans. Ultimately we look to the partnership we have with ticketing companies and other members of the team with the artists to figure out the best strategies to decrease the potential for fraud on every major show.
I would like to add, however, it is important for this committee to note that for high-demand shows, we're talking about maybe 1% of all concert tickets sold in Canada in a year. That, of course, attracts the most attention because all of us want to go to that show, but there is a lot of concert activity that is much less impacted in this country by this issue.
Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation.
My name is Philip Vanden Brande. I am the senior manager of public and media relations for Groupe CH, as well as the company's spokesperson.
Through its live entertainment divisions evenko and L'Équipe Spectra, Groupe CH is Canada's leading event promoter and festival producer, presenting over 1,500 shows and major festivals yearly, such as Osheaga Music and Arts Festival, Festival international de jazz de Montréal, Francos de Montréal, Heavy Montréal, ÎleSoniq, '77 Montréal, Montréal en lumière, Nuit blanche à Montréal and others.
Groupe CH events attract millions of happy fans every year, hundreds of thousands of whom come from outside Quebec and Canada, generating tens of millions of dollars in economic windfall for the community. Groupe CH also manages several venues in the greater Montreal region, including the Bell Centre, Place Bell, MTELUS, Corona Theatre, l'Étoile and l'Astral. With its artistic agencies, evenko and Spectra Musique, the company also devotes itself to the professional development of several Canadian artists.
Groupe CH also holds a major stake in the activities of Groupe Juste pour rire, which organizes the biggest comedy festival in the world every year. The festival Juste pour rire/Just for Laughs Festival is internationally renowned in the French and English comedy markets.
I will begin with a bit of background.
Concert ticket sales practices have evolved since the beginning of the digital era. Exclusive presales are often offered to the artist's digital community, to some credit card holders, or to the subscribers of certain newsletters.
For instance, evenko provides exclusive offers of $20 tickets to the subscribers of its newsletter during national concert week. Subscribers of the Festival international de Jazz de Montréal newsletter also receive special offers for the indoor concert series. Digital ticketing systems have also evolved in leaps and bounds over the last few years thanks to the innovations of technological providers, who have equipped their platforms with digital waiting lists and anti-fraud mechanisms to block bots. Generally, the scope of Groupe CH's activities allows us to work with reliable ticketing partners, who are able to invest important sums in anti-fraud research and development.
I will now share our findings with you. All these advances have made it possible to increase Canadians' access to their favourite artists. In Quebec, the access of citizens to live entertainment has notably been increased by the strengthening of the provincial Consumer Protection Act in 2011 and 2018. The company supported the additions to this new law completed in 2018 and is happy about its underlying egalitarian motivation. However, its enforcement relies on limited government resources, which deserve to be improved.
In order to comply with that law, Quebec ticket resellers must ask for producers' permission to resell tickets on their platform. However, these platforms can create confusion among buyers, by often mimicking the visual look of the original ticketing service. They hinder consumers' search for information by sometimes even appearing before authorized vendors in search engine results. The high prices displayed by these resellers may undermine the trust of Canadians towards their entertainment industry, while also affecting artists, potentially hurt by their fans' inability to find tickets at a fair price.
It is important for us that Canadians have simple, efficient access to live artistic performances. Concert tickets are experiential consumer goods that give access to unique irreplaceable entertainment. We encourage Canadians to always purchase concert tickets from the official source, which allows them to avoid fraud risks. Our company directly makes available to the public a large percentage of concert tickets via our official box office. Limited quantities must still be contractually reserved for the artist's entourage or other artistic partners. When those tickets aren't used, they are sometimes put up for sale to the public.
We care about the complete experience of consumers, which should be enjoyable from the purchase of tickets to the end of the performance. However, the great popularity of some artists implies that some shows can sell out very quickly. Financial and logistic considerations limit the number of performances that can be produced, even when demand is overwhelming for a popular artist.
The problem of ticket resale at inflated prices is also fuelled by fraud. Some resellers manage to bypass the anti-fraud protection mechanisms to purchase batches of tickets that are then resold for profit, with the help of bots. The latter cause inconvenience to our ticketing systems, despite the technological measures implemented by our partners.
We are also regularly faced with ticket counterfeiting, which causes distress to some consumers when they arrive at the venue with unusable fake tickets. These swindled buyers are under the wrongful impression that they got them from an authorized vendor. In reality, they were fooled by individuals or platforms that didn't clearly display their reseller status. This kind of a situation directly damages our reputation, by using our brand and our credibility for the wrong purposes. We actively collaborate with the police when such cases are discovered.
In light of our findings, here are our proposals.
First, we encourage governments to use every measure at their disposal to guarantee that Canadians can primarily deal with the official vendor of an artistic performance. Furthermore, the official point of resale should always come up first in search engine results.
Second, since denial of admission at a venue caused by fraud causes dissatisfaction and frustration for Canadians, we encourage all secondary resale platforms to adopt a full refund policy.
Third, we prompt governments to crack down on cases of fraud. This includes ticket counterfeiting and transactions with bots. If the identity of the owners of resale websites were more widely disclosed, it would certainly be easier for the police and courts to crack down on fraud.
Last, we want resale platforms to clearly indicate that they are not the original ticket source.
Thank you very much. I am available to answer any questions you may have, in English or in French.
Madam Chair and members of the committee, my name is Paul Nowosad. I'm the general manager of StubHub Canada.
StubHub was founded in 2000 and was later purchased by eBay. Our offices are based in Toronto, where we have nearly 170 employees as part of the eBay, Kijiji and StubHub businesses.
It is my pleasure to be with the committee today to discuss our business, the global event ticket market and issues impacting fans' access to live performances. I appreciate the opportunity to present StubHub's belief that a transparent and competitive market is in the best interest of fans.
StubHub revolutionized the secondary ticket market. We took a market that traditionally operated on street corners, without consumer protection and, for the first time, provided a safe, transparent alternative for fans to buy and sell tickets online.
Today, StubHub is a global business that operates in more than 40 countries, and we are proud to provide our customers with the highest standards of customer protection anywhere in the ticket market. Our commitment to the customer interest is why we have earned the trust of fans and have more than 2.4 million registered users in Canada. Our StubHub website and customer service is available to all users in both official languages.
Our users are protected by our industry-leading fan protect guarantee, which assures that in those rare instances a problem occurs with a transaction on our marketplace, ticket buyers are provided comparable or better replacement tickets to the event or, when that is not possible, a complete refund inclusive of fees. Our fan-first philosophy is paramount to our business.
StubHub is a proud partner with major leagues, universities, teams, venues and artists around the world, including the Toronto Blue Jays. We prioritize investing in our fans, in the communities where they live, and in the music, theatre and sports landscapes. Last month StubHub enhanced our Toronto Blue Jays partnership by creating a fan experience at their exhibition games in Montreal. As part of this event, we were proud to bring the young athletes from amateur baseball associations to the game.
Today, we are hosting a free concert during Canada Music Week in Toronto. We're including in this benefit the kids from the MusiCounts program. We are a supporter of MusiCounts and their mission to bring music education to kids across Canada.
Our mission at StubHub is simple: Connect fans to the joy of live events. StubHub creates additional choice in the marketplace and enables fans to transact on their own timelines, and we provide a trusted platform to purchase tickets in cities or countries where users are less familiar. We believe that a fair, secure and competitive ticket marketplace unequivocally supports the interests of fans. Competition in the market provides fans greater access to the events they want to experience and the ability to purchase tickets at a fair and market-driven price.
As the committee studies the issues of ticket access for Canadian fans, StubHub strongly encourages you to examine the industry holistically, and to tackle a range of issues that are impacting fans today. Increasingly, the primary and secondary markets are blending. In many instances, artists' teams, venues and ticketing companies are participating in both the sale and resale of tickets. Further, there are an increasing number of anti-consumer, anti-competitive ticketing policies and restrictions in use today that infringe on a customer's rights and interests. These restrictions can come in the form of government policies, ticket issuer practices or misused technologies.
As we begin to discuss some of these issues, let's first take a look at bots to unfairly procure tickets. StubHub supports and will continue to support legislation prohibiting the use of bots. We strongly believe the legislation in this area should be comprehensive and inclusive of a range of issues impacting fans' access to tickets.
While bots are often blamed as the sole reason fans have difficulty accessing tickets, it's important to note that another major factor exists as well, specifically that a large percentage of tickets actually never are released for sale to the general public.
According to a study undertaken by the New York Attorney General in 2016, an average of 46% of tickets go on sale to the general public. The remaining tickets are held back for industry insiders, artists, clubs, credit card pre-sales and other sources. For top shows, this average falls to 25% and has been reported as low as 12%. In Canada, the National Hockey League commissioner stated that over 90% of the tickets to the 2016 World Cup of Hockey were already sold in advance of the general on-sale.
Providing fans information on the number of tickets available for sale, when these tickets will be offered and at what price, will create a clearer picture of event accessibility. It is a critical part of any discussion on ticket access. It will also help inform customers' purchasing decisions.
Another market trend that impacts customers is the increasing use of restrictive terms, conditions and technologies to control what fans do with the tickets they have rightfully purchased. In some instances, these restrictions prevent ticket purchasers from transferring or reselling tickets altogether, eliminating the opportunity to give tickets away or resell them, even in an effort to recoup funds if they cannot attend an event. In other instances, restrictions are designed not to eliminate transfer or resale, but to control it and eliminate competition in the ticket marketplace.
It is critical that fans have the option to purchase a freely transferable ticket at the initial point of sale. Several jurisdictions in Canada and the U.S. have proposed or adopted laws protecting this right. By ensuring that consumers have choice, they are empowering fans and protecting a competitive ticket market. When companies compete on a level playing field for the business of fans, fans win.
A final market trend that impacts Canadian consumers is the deceptive URLs to mimic the box offices of venues, teams or artists, when in fact they're actually resale sites. This practice is harmful to consumers and harmful to legitimate resale marketplaces as it perpetuates a negative image of the secondary ticket market.
In closing, StubHub is committed to an open dialogue with government, regulators and industry stakeholders to continue to improve the industry and preserve a healthy and competitive ticket market for fans.
Thank you for the opportunity to present to your committee. I look forward to answering any questions you might have.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for coming in this afternoon. It's much appreciated.
I'll start by sharing an experience I had on StubHub recently. I've had some good experiences, but this experience was a tough one.
I went to buy tickets to a Morrissey concert. I'm a big Morrissey fan. However, the show sold out across Canada, for the sake of argument, in 30 minutes or an hour, or whatever. I was on the phone. I was trying to buy my tickets. I couldn't get a ticket. When I had a chance to buy two, by that time, they were gone, and so on and so forth. I was extremely disappointed.
One hour later, there were tons of tickets available on StubHub that, I'll be honest, I was still quite happy to buy. I paid a lot more than face value for them, almost double, but I bought the tickets.
I wasn't able to go to the concert, unfortunately for me, and I went to resell the tickets. I could resell the tickets and I thought at the time, “Because I had such a hard time buying the tickets, it's going to be easy to resell them.” I posted them for resale and that was all good. Then I went on the site, and there tickets all over the place for sale. I didn't sell them, because there were all kinds of other tickets for sale.
You did, too?
Thank you. That adds to my impression that the issue concerns the industry and consumers and less so heritage.
In addition, as we are talking about heritage issues, I will take 20 seconds to tell everyone, given the urgency at Telefilm Canada and in a spirit of cooperation, that I would like to give notice of motion for the following motion: That the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage invite the Acting Chair of the Telefilm Canada Board of Directors, the Executive Director of Telefilm Canada, as well as representatives of the francophone film industry to update us on the many recent departures from Telefilm Canada's management team and on its expenditures and priorities in 2019-2020.
If the committee would like to vote on the motion right away, I would be delighted. It could do so if I get unanimous consent. Otherwise, we will talk about it again next Thursday.
My question is for Mr. Nowosad and Ms. Dooley.
About two years ago, Paradise Papers contained the name of a Quebecker, Julien Lavallée, and much was made of it. Julien Lavallée is a super ticket scalper. He gets his hands on thousands of tickets by just snapping his fingers. He probably took all the Morrissey tickets Mr. Long was trying to get.
I think that you tried to calm things down concerning Mr. Lavallée. Is he still one of your incumbent suppliers, even today?
It's a collaboration and needs to be a collaboration in order to work well. In the last panel we heard a lot about how we can best enforce the bots laws. The fact of the matter is that the governments charged with enforcing those laws don't have the information they need in order to prosecute the bad actors.
The sites that are being attacked by bots are primary ticket sellers. StubHub is attacked by bots as well. We do our own part to try to shut down that activity. It's incumbent upon all of us, however, to collaborate with government to say, here's the information you need to go after bad actors.
Certainly there are some jurisdictional issues involved. Where are these bad actors located? When the harm is attacking Canadian consumers in whatever province they live in, however, there's an opportunity for enforcers to go after those bad actors wherever they live.
StubHub regularly collaborates with law enforcement when we detect fraud on our site, whether it be payment fraud or just fraudulent activity in general. It's a commitment we make across the entire eBay business. It's something we pride ourselves on and it's something I think we can encourage the rest of the industry to do.
Certainly there's a major responsibility from a technological standpoint. As StubHub, not necessarily in Canada but in other markets, is entering into the primary space, we're investing significant resources into learning how we can combat fraud attacks on our site as well.