:
I'd like to call this meeting to order. Welcome, everyone.
The meeting this morning is pursuant to the Standing Orders. We're actually dealing with two reports. The first report is “Chapter 4, Electronic Health Records” of the fall 2009 report of the Auditor General of Canada, and then also “An Overview of Federal and Provincial Audit Reports” from the spring 2010 report of the Auditor General of Canada. So we're dealing with electronic health records and the implementation of electronic health records in Canada.
The committee is very pleased, of course, to have with us, from the Office of the Auditor General, Ms. Fraser, the auditor. She is accompanied this morning by assistant auditor, Neil Maxwell, and Louise Dubé, principal.
From Health Canada Infoway, we have Richard Alvarez, the president and chief executive officer. He's accompanied by the chief operating officer, Mike Sheridan.
We also have, from the Department of Health, Dr. Karen Dodds, the assistant deputy minister, strategic policy branch.
So again, welcome to each of you. I'm going to break 10 minutes early to deal with the steering committee reports and Madame Faille's motion. I'll do the steering committee first.
Having said that, we'll go right now to opening remarks. We're going to hear first from the auditor herself, Ms. Fraser.
We thank you for this opportunity to present the results of two reports on electronic health records. As you mentioned, I'm accompanied today by Neil Maxwell, Assistant Auditor General, and Louise Dubé, principal, who are responsible for audits in the health sector.
Electronic health records, or EHRs, are intended to offer solutions to a number of persistent problems in Canada's health system, some of which may be attributed to the use of paper-based health records. It is expected that EHRs will allow health care professionals to be better able to share patient information, resulting in reduced costs and improved quality of care.
In November 2009, we reported the results of an EHR audit of Infoway and Health Canada, based on audit work completed to April 2009. As of March 31, 2009, Infoway had committed to spending or had spent $1.2 billion on this initiative. Some experts have estimated the total cost of implementing EHRs Canada-wide at over $10 billion, and Infoway concurs with this estimate.
We examined how Infoway manages the funds from the federal government to achieve its goal of making compatible electronic health records available across Canada. Overall, we found that Infoway has accomplished a lot since its inception and that it manages well the $1.2 billion in funds granted by the federal government to achieve its goal. There is good oversight of the corporation by the board of directors and Health Canada, the sponsoring department. Infoway has set the national direction for the implementation of EHRs by developing an approach as well as the key requirements and components of an EHR. It developed a blueprint or architecture for the design of the systems, and it developed strategic plans and a risk-management strategy. Infoway worked collaboratively with and obtained buy-in from its partners and stakeholders, which is critical for the success of the initiative.
[Translation]
We also found that Infoway approves projects, which it cost-shares with the provinces and territories, that are designed to comply with standards and that align with the blueprint. We noted that Infoway adequately monitors the implementation of projects by provinces and territories.
We reported that Infoway needs to make improvements in certain areas. Infoway's 2010 goal is for 50% of Canadians to have electronic health records available to their health care professionals. We found that Infoway needs to report more information on results, in particular, information on progress achieved towards its 2010 goal. To date, it only reports if systems are completed, not whether the systems are being used by health care professionals, or whether completed systems meet the requirements for compatibility. This information on system usage and compatibility would help Parliament and Canadians better understand progress to date.
We noted that Infoway's controls over executive pay, travel, and hospitality are basically sound, although it needed to improve its contracting policy.
Concurrent with our audit, six provincial audit offices looked at how electronic health records funded by Infoway and/or provincial governments are being implemented in their respective provinces. Each office has reported the results of its audit to its own legislature between October 2009 and April 2010. My provincial counterparts and I issued an overview of the federal and provincial reports on EHRs in April 2010.
In the six jurisdictions audited, the audits found that every audited jurisdiction had at least one core electronic health record system in place, and some provinces had almost finished implementing their EHR systems.
[English]
The six participating provincial legislative audit offices raised various concerns about EHR planning, with some noting recent progress. For example, three reported that the ministry started their EHR initiatives without having a comprehensive strategic plan. This increases the risk that the projects undertaken will not be consistent with the goals and priorities of the overall initiative and that the needs of the users will not be met.
With regard to the implementation of EHRs, participating provincial auditors general reported that the focus for each province has been to ensure compatibility within their respective jurisdictions. It is too soon to determine whether the systems in each jurisdiction will be compatible nationally.
Notably, my provincial counterparts found limited public reporting on progress. Provinces lack comprehensive information such as costs to date, baselines, and performance measures necessary to report progress more completely.
Infoway, the provinces, and the territories need to work together to develop performance measures and reporting standards for each core system of the electronic health record, so that Parliament, legislatures, and Canadians can better understand progress made and benefits achieved.
While progress has been made in developing and implementing electronic health records across Canada, continued collaboration between Infoway, the provinces and territories, and other stakeholders will be needed to address the significant challenges that lie ahead.
These challenges include the need to increase the number of primary care doctors using computerized records systems; to upgrade completed EHR projects that do not meet all the standards for national compatibility; to address the implications of differences in provincial and territorial laws regarding the collection, use, protection, and disclosure of personal health information; to track the total costs; and to fund the completion of the initiative. A key question is whether the 2010 goal will be met by the end of this year.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, given the significance of the investments made, the potential benefits, and Canadians' interest in health care, the committee may wish to ask Infoway for an update of its action plan developed in response to our November 2009 audit. Furthermore, all of the participating auditors general have suggested that legislative committees continue in the future to provide oversight to this initiative and monitor progress toward meeting the 2010 goal.
Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks and we would be pleased to answer your committee's questions.
:
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for providing us with this opportunity to speak to the committee today.
As you stated earlier, with me is Mike Sheridan, Infoway's chief operating officer.
Let me start by thanking the Auditor General of Canada and her audit team for what we believe to be a thorough, balanced audit report on electronic health records, which her office tabled with Parliament in November 2009 and then again in April 2010.
As the Auditor General notes in her overview report, the provinces' approach to electronic health records is unique. Their definitions of electronic health strategies, priorities, timelines, and approaches are distinctive.
As a strategic investor, Infoway has developed, in consultation with our jurisdictional partners, the key requirements, the core components, and a blueprint to guide—
As a strategic investor, Infoway has developed, in consultation with our jurisdictional partners, the key requirements, the core components, and a blueprint to guide the pan-Canadian developments of EHR. Infoway's strategic plan identifies those priorities, along with measurable goals and targets, and provides an agreed-upon road map for the development of the various components of the EHR that we fund.
Madam Fraser's overview report specifically states that “at the federal level the audit reported that Infoway was exercising due regard in managing funds from the federal government to achieve its goal related to the implementation of EHRs”. As a result, today every province and territory and the populations they serve are benefiting from a share of the federal government's investments through Infoway in the new information systems that will help transform health care.
Let me share with you just two examples. Our investments have helped to eliminate three-quarters of X-ray films and replace them with digitized images. Today some 40% of our radiologists report they are providing services to new and remote sites—that's incredibly important, given the large land mass of our country—and eliminating between 10,000 and 17,000 patient transfers per year.
Leveraging Infoway's investments, drug information systems are now in place in British Columbia, in Alberta, in P.E.I., and in Saskatchewan. Take the system in B.C., PharmaNet, which captures every prescription dispensed in pharmacies and provides alerts to pharmacists and physicians. In 2008, more than 55 million prescriptions were processed by PharmaNet, and 2.5 million significant drug interactions were identified. When you project that across Canada, this suggests that drug information systems could significantly reduce inappropriate prescriptions and identify more than 20 million significant drug interactions every single year.
The Auditor General made eight recommendations to Infoway in her November 2009 report to Parliament. Shortly after the report was tabled, Infoway sent its action plan to this committee as well as to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health. Our response to the eight recommendations encompassed some 40 separate actions, which were implemented by our self-imposed deadline of March 31, 2010, the end of our fiscal year. We also reviewed this action plan with the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.
Of the eight recommendations, five call for improving and enhancing our existing reporting, especially as we report to Canadians. In this regard, we conducted focus groups with the public across the country to ensure that our enhancements in reporting on availability, on adoption, on standards, our investment targets, and reporting variances in our business plan would be understood by those Canadians. The result of these focus group discussions helped us to improve and expand reporting on the key measures that have been integrated into our 2009-10 annual report, which will be published in a few weeks.
We have also assessed and strengthened our management controls over contracting for goods and services to reduce the risk of contract disputes, with the introduction of additional control points, advance notice of expiry dates to contract administrators, enhanced management signature procedures and processes, as well as required workflow modifications. We have supplemented these administrative changes with an internal communications and education program for our staff.
As recommended by the OAG, we have reviewed and modified our procurement policy with respect to contract amendments and extensions and have had the revised policy approved by our board of directors, and now it's firmly in place.
In response to the recommendation that Infoway should better document its analysis of project deliverables to support our decision to release funds, we have revamped our project portfolio management system and have modified and updated the processes and procedures to support the release of funds for deliverables in a consistent manner. All appropriate staff have been trained on the new system requirements.
We have also incorporated into our investment approval process for the core systems of the EHR the requirement to obtain results of conformance testing on the core EHR systems that we fund.
We believe that we have responded to the recommendations in a timely, efficient, and effective manner and have addressed the issues of concern raised in the OAG's audit report.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks. I'll be delighted to take questions.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chair, members, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to be here with you this morning.
[English]
I first want to thank the Auditor General and her staff for their very informative reports. Health Canada is pleased that they have undertaken the task of reviewing electronic health record initiatives. The process has provided all parties with useful feedback.
The federal government has invested $2.1 billion in Canada Health Infoway since 2001. In this context, the audits have provided confirmation and assurance that these investments are being managed responsibly and effectively.
[Translation]
Indeed, the audit of electronic health records provided an additional layer of due diligence, to support the recent release of the $500 million allocated to Infoway under Budget 2009.
I would like to take this opportunity today to speak in more detail about Health Canada's reaction to both the fall audit report, and the spring overview report.
[English]
As noted by Ms. Fraser, developments in the area of electronic health technologies are expected to be of great benefit to Canadians as they will enable better, safer, and faster management of patient information. Evidence of this is already being seen across the country.
Of course, establishing electronic health technologies is a highly complex undertaking, particularly in Canada, where 14 jurisdictions are individually responsible for the delivery of health care. This makes the results of the audits encouraging, for although they identify areas for improvement, they also emphasize many achievements. With respect to the Auditor General's fall 2009 report, Health Canada was pleased to note that Ms. Fraser recognized that Infoway has accomplished much since its creation, a point that she reiterated today. In this context, Ms. Fraser also underscored that provinces and territories are individually responsible for the pace of progress in their respective jurisdictions.
I believe this speaks to the importance of having an entity such as Infoway, which brings all parties together in a cohesive manner towards a shared goal.
[Translation]
The auditor general also recommended that Health Canada fully develop and implement its framework for monitoring Infoway's compliance with the funding agreements. I am pleased to tell you that, at the time of the release of the audit report in November 2009, the department had already completed implementation of its monitoring framework. This framework has been shared with the Office of the Auditor General.
[English]
This document is an evergreen tool that will be updated by the department on an ongoing basis to reflect the evolution of this dynamic initiative. I am pleased that the Auditor General highlighted this document, as I believe it supports Health Canada's proactive attention to accountability issues and due diligence in relation to the significant federal investments in Infoway.
The Auditor General's electronic health records overview report, which was released this spring, provided a unique opportunity to better understand the complexity of e-health activities at both the pan-Canadian and jurisdictional levels. In this context, I was pleased to note that it further underscored the progress that is under way across Canada. For example, implementing EHRs requires the establishment of a number of key foundational components. As noted by Ms. Fraser, every jurisdiction has at least one new component in place.
Health Canada was also pleased to note that the report highlights the important role that Infoway plays in ensuring that electronic health records are implemented across the country in a cohesive and standardized fashion. Indeed, the ultimate goal is to ensure that when Canadians move across the country, there will be portability of their health information. To this end, Infoway led the creation of a blueprint that lays out the design for a pan-Canadian EHR system. Infoway also leads the identification, development, maintenance, and application of standards, which are required to ensure that EHR systems will ultimately be able to communicate.
[Translation]
The report tempers these observations of progress by underscoring the variety of challenges which face all parties as we move forward. I would like to emphasize that these challenges are well understood by governments and Infoway, and that plans and activities are already underway to address each one.
I am also confident that the recent federal investment of an additional $500 million in Canada Health Infoway, will serve to accelerate action on many of these challenges, such as computerizing doctors' offices, insuring that systems will be compatible, and completing the establishment of electronic health records.
[English]
In closing, I would like to reiterate Health Canada's appreciation of these informative audit reports. We look forward to continued progress in the area of e-health, and I am confident that the audit findings will help to support us in this ongoing process.
I'll be pleased to answer any questions that committee members may have.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our committee.
The Auditor General's report on electronic health records is both reassuring and worrisome, I would say. It is reassuring with respect to Infoway's internal management, in fact it may be the most positive report I have read in this regard in the short time I have been on this committee.
I did however note a point of concern regarding internal management of calls for tender: contracts were being amended on numerous occasions, costs were increasing. Infoway has recognized the problem. It has committed to suggesting the necessary changes to the board for the fourth quarter of 2009-2010.
Was that done, Mr. Alvarez?
The short answer to that is yes, it was done. The longer answer to that is we had a board-approved policy that basically allowed us to go to market, which we did as an RFP, and basically get bids. What we didn't say in that RFP, which the Auditor General reported on, is that we could in fact have contract extensions. In the case that was quoted in the document, the scope of the project increased and it took a much longer period of time; therefore, the contract was extended, I believe, six times. We extended it without going back to market, because that was the board policy and it was okay for us to do that.
We've now made a change to that. When we go to market in an RFP, we make it very clear and transparent that there's the possibility of being extended any number of times. That way, people realize that when they are bidding on it.
:
That number really came out of a couple of studies that were undertaken—one by Booz Allen and the other by McKinsey. The number was premised on the fact that we're talking about the entire scope of the health care system—that is home care, long-term care, all the hospitals, doctors' offices, community doctors' offices, etc.
Today our scope is rather defined. When we got started, sir, we had $500 million from the government to work with. There was no promise at that point of any additional funds. Over time, we've had additional funds. So we are really cutting our cloth, defined on priorities. If there's no more money, then we would at least have done the community positions; we would at least have done some of the hospitals, the drug information, etc. If the money flows, we start to move it out into community settings.
But those are the numbers in terms of the 75%. Yes, we do fund 75% of eligible costs, but there is a whole host of costs the provinces have that we don't fund. So when you start to weigh what they're paying for and what we're paying for with federal dollars, it's normally about a 50-50 split.
:
Thank you for that insightful question. When I think about the job at hand, what information technology is going to be doing, it's really going to be transforming the health care system. It's going to be getting clinicians to work in completely different ways.
The challenge for us here is not a technological challenge, by the way; it's a people challenge. It's a chain management challenge of getting, in many cases, these clinicians who are not salaried, who are not employees of any facilities, but entrepreneurs and small business people, to adopt these new technologies. We've known from the start that the chain management and getting used to these systems is going to be the biggest challenge.
That is why we put in place a protection of the federal funds. We're a strategic investor, and the way we fund is once we get a signed agreement of what needs to take place, we provide 20% to get on with the job; we provide another 30% when the hardware and software are in, but we hold back 50% of the funds until we get take-up, until we get usage from the clinicians. From where I sit, we can put into place peer-to-peer groups, tools, and best practices of how clinicians should adopt this, but I can't make them adopt it. It has to be up to the territories and provinces to do that. That's why we hold back the money.
Will this happen? There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this will happen, that clinicians will change the way they are working. Is it slow? Yes, it is slow because there's a lot of learning to do, especially with clinicians who have been out of the system, have been out of school for the last 20 or 30 years. They are now finding new tools and how to use them. Clinicians who are in the system today will not come out and practise in Canada without these state-of-the-art systems.
:
On page 5 of the Auditor General's report, the eligibility criteria for projects are discussed, as well as the established architecture, the total funding granted for the Infoway, which is definitively determined when projects are approved. We also hear that the provinces and the territories must assume all risks of cost overruns.
Ms. Fraser, as far as I understand, the provinces are dependent on the federal government. For some time now, the Auditor General of Quebec has been pursuing a development project that is called the Dossier de santé du Québec. Have you had an opportunity to get acquainted with the report of the Auditor General?
Curiously enough, he is interested in the same matters as you are, at this time. He's criticizing the fact that the system is far from yielding the expected results. Have you any suggestions or expectations regarding the Infoway, so as to ensure a certain degree of leadership or so as to review, together with the provinces, the monitoring of various projects? We can see that the projects have been approved, but for some reason or other, the risks have not been correctly assessed.
:
Sure, and thank you for that question.
Basically, we put in place a safeguard mechanism: if there is no take-up or the take-up from clinicians is taking a while, then we hold back that money until they meet that goal. So we have a gated funding approach.
If provinces delay their project, it's going to cost more. But guess what? With our agreement with them, with federal funds, we limit what we're going to pay. Once we sign that deal and they want to take as long as they can, it's on their coin, not on ours.
With all of that said, if they fail, we fail. So we go over and beyond that by trying to put to them from time to time other options and other plans. In fact, if you see the auditor's report in Quebec that came out the other day, it basically said that Infoway put plans to the government in terms of how it can move forward; the government at this stage hasn't moved on those plans. But clearly it's a failure for us to sit here with federal funds and not be able to execute on them, because those projects are taking so long. At the same time, we don't want to waste those moneys if in fact we're not getting results.
:
The actions that we are taking, again, thanks to the new money from the federal government, will be actions to accelerate the adoption of automation at community settings in primary care, so both with physicians and with nurse practitioners.
Right now about six provinces have already moved ahead with this agenda, but the rest haven't. The provinces that have been particularly successful have set up offices between the ministry and physician associations to help doctors get computerized. We will be helping those provinces that haven't got those offices set up to do so by looking at best practices and making the best practices available. Provinces like Quebec and Newfoundland would be good examples. We will be encouraging them to sign up their doctors and nurse practitioners as soon as possible. We will be carrying half of those costs for the first two years. Again, we will be getting our funding.
We want to make sure that these systems, as they go in, are not used as doorstoppers or desk ornaments but that they are used in a meaningful way. So we will be putting in requirements that they have, for example, alerts and reminders in their system about contraindications around medication; adverse or negative lab results; the ability to provide reminders for chronic disease patients; the ability to receive the lab tests into their systems; and then the ability to move on to things such as e-prescribing. That's all very much part and parcel of our program.
We're also very keen about our blueprint, which Ms. Fraser mentioned several times. The blueprint is very simple. As we're building the system, we're building it around the individual, around the Canadian. We're not building it around the doctor or around the hospital. Those systems are of the past, and those have been closed systems. As patients moved around from one place to another they could never get hold of their tests, and therefore they had to repeat their medical histories. So it's very important for us now to build on all the investments we've made in the past and to make sure that these electronic medical systems in community settings are interoperable with drug databases, lab databases, and diagnostic databases so they can refresh the patient's history and get a full history of the patient.
I have just completed a tour across the country, meeting with the provinces and the territories, and the strategies and processes are being extraordinarily well received.
:
Okay. I know how complex it is. You're saying yes, you have incentives.
Mr. Richard Alvarez: Yes.
Mr. Derek Lee: Has the strategic plan benchmarked engagement of the sectors? Is that part of the plan?
Can I look at your plan, if it's there, and while I've got the microphone, can you tell me about the process of engagement of local health care components? For example, a doctor's office gets 5,000 client files. Would the doctor start on day one to begin inputting the new data on electronic health records, or would you expect a doctor or clinic to go back and convert all the existing records into electronic health care records? What have you built into your plan, your benchmarking, your measurement mechanism, in relation to that? What expectation does your plan have for those medical practitioners, whether it's a new person or a 78-year-old practitioner somewhere who's working part time?
:
Your earlier question was whether I could look at the strategic plan and whether it is there. If you look at my strategies, absolutely, it is there, and those strategies were just approved last week by my board.
In terms of how doctors go about the conversion, I talked earlier about the fact that we almost insist that governments and physician groups and nursing groups come together and form an office that will help work with the doctors to do a few things. First, they would select and qualify the vendors who provide these products, and then they would work with them in a change management perspective of how much data they need to convert, and, no, they're not converting all of their files.
This has been done before. It has been done very successfully in Alberta, it's been done in B.C., and it's been done in Ontario--to take from there those learnings of what they need to convert and how they need to convert it and make that available. By the way, it's not an organized process, so they don't just throw their papers away and start with the computer tomorrow. It does take a while.
:
I just have an issue following up on that, and I think Mr. Young is quite right here, that the benefits here are tremendous for Canadian society. I believe Infoway, according to the audit, is doing a very good job. You are well managed and well governed, and you administer your contracts effectively and efficiently.
But when you look at it on a Canada-wide basis, it appears that we aren't really doing that well. We're slow off the mark when you compare us internationally with other western countries, where, as you said, we are dead last. I believe some of the records indicate that 9% of clinicians are using this, according to the 2007 numbers.
So my question is—and perhaps we'll get Dr. Dodds involved in this question—who is responsible for taking this right to the next level? Infoway is not a heavily funded organization. I think you are spending your money wisely. But we are in a country with 14 different jurisdictions, and it is complicated. It's not an easy process, and I don't think we're making the progress that other countries are making.
We're using federal money to drive change, but when you look back at the 2004 agreement signed between the provinces and the federal government, our federal government hasn't done a good job of monitoring these agreements. While this doesn't have to do with the electronic health records, but with other issues, they basically let the provinces take the money, who stated they would not comply with the agreements or give the federal government the information and they got the money anyway.
So I guess my question is a general one. Who is responsible for taking this to the next level, which is so important for Canadians? Is it the Department of Health or Infoway? Can you give us some direction?
Perhaps, Dr. Dodds, we'll hear from you first.
:
Thank you very much for the question.
As both the Auditor General and Mr. Alvarez have noted earlier today, the federal government has given significant sums of money to Infoway over a period of time. I think that does show the understanding of the federal government that this does have benefits. It has been both Liberal and Conservative governments that have given funds. The benefits that can accrue to the system are apparent to different people.
I did ask my colleagues at Infoway just the other week. Mr. Alvarez said if you look at what we call EMRs, electronic medical records—that's what the community doctor, the family doctor, has in her or his office—Canada is dead last. I asked him if you looked at the EHR, the components drug information system, diagnostic imaging lab results, where would Canada stand? And the answer was that you would turn that around and Canada would be at the top.
Other countries have focused first on EMRs and they haven't necessarily taken a national approach. It's been a local doctor, and it's been that doctor and that doctor's patients who have had the benefit. What Canada has done, largely through Infoway's blueprint, has been to develop what I'll call the unsexy components of electronic health records.
And I'm very pleased with the latest $500 million investment. There is a big focus on the electronic medical records, because that is when physicians and Canadians will really see the benefits of all the foundational work that Infoway has done with the partners in the provinces and jurisdictions.
As Mr. Young said, that drug information database is not really useful until a doctor is using it when he or she is prescribing to a patient. Right now it's good at the pharmacy, but you also would like the physician to have that information when the physician is prescribing. You would also like to have the patient, himself or herself, be able to access that information.
So as we're now really accelerating that implementation of EMRs, I think you'll see the benefits accruing and you'll see more physicians moving to EMRs.
:
We absolutely are as a country. I've talked about the diagnostic imaging systems. In the diagnostic imaging systems we've now basically thrown away all those X-ray forms. About 70% to 80% are now digitized, which means, in fact, that those X-rays can be looked at from anywhere.
Let me give you a quick example of this. Several of our provinces now are completely digitized. We're just moving in that direction with Manitoba. Just a few weeks ago they finally got Churchill done. The day they had Churchill digitized, a child presented with injuries. Typically, they would have flown a jet out of Winnipeg to bring the child down, but they did the image and sent it down to Winnipeg Health Sciences Centre. They looked at it and said there was no need to move the child and this is what they need to do. The very next day another child presented, and this time Churchill thought they could actually work with the child up there, but they sent the image down. They looked at the image at the health Sciences Centre and said, we're sending the jet, bring the child down right away.
So there have been huge changes. We have 25% to 30% productivity gains with our radiologists. That's basically adding another 500 radiologists.
I talked about the drug information systems. Let's take Alberta. They're clearly at the leading edge. Alberta today has an electronic health record, and they have 20,000 users of that record on a daily basis. They've been able to build chronic disease management systems and registries very quickly on top of the electronic health record.
Take cancer surgery. We now have a system of cancer surgery where the clinicians are starting to record just the minimum data sets as soon as they do the surgery, as opposed to transcribing their reports. The change in that is the transcription reports used to basically take over a month to get them in hand. They can now get their reports after one hour of the surgery. They're reporting 100% of those items, and they're training our new doctors on best practice.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.
It's a generous report. I'm not sure I agree with it; maybe I've been tainted a bit in Ontario.
Let me go to the report. I understand that a comment came out at the end of June or early July 2009. According to Health Canada Infoway, of about 322 million doctor visits that we have per year, around 94% result in hand-written paper records. When we compare Canada's position in terms of our electronic health records, we find that in the Netherlands, 98% of health records are electronic; in New Zealand, 92%; in the U.K., almost 90%; in Australia, 80%. Only the United States fares worse than Canada. I'm confused.
We have an October 2009 report from the auditor in Ontario showing that instead of being near the head of the list, Ontario is near the back of the pack when it comes to electronic health records. Where is the Department of Health, or Infoway? It seems that we hand money over. There was a billion dollars in corruption that happened in Ontario. That is partly, I'm assuming, federal dollars; maybe partly it is provincial dollars.
My point is, quite honestly, that this started in 2001; we are now in 2010. We are behind the pack in just about everything that you talk about, although I know Ms. Dodds talked about the doctors and patients receiving a benefit in comparison with some of the other countries. I think in Ontario and Canada that's what needs to be a priority. In health care, patients should be about priority, and not systems, and not computers. They need to be a part of that; the patients come first.
I understand the significance of the electronic and the digital records. We understand the need for them. But quite honestly, I believe we have not been accountable for the dollars that have gone to the system. I just don't understand why now we're developing strategic plans, in 2010. I read somewhere here that in 2006 we revised the blueprint, five years after 2001. Please encourage me. It would seem that in 2001 we had an Infoway set up by the government that threw money out without direction, and it took until about 2006 to start to get some organizational part of it in place. There is no strategic planning; there doesn't seem to be much accountability. Provinces have been all over the map in terms of continuity.
So I ask you, Mr. Alvarez, and I would ask Ms. Dodds, and I would ask Sheila Fraser, the AG, to help me understand that actually this is a continuity, that there is compatibility, because I don't see compatibility mentioned in terms of the systems that are going in. We have provinces doing different things, and there are priorities.
That is a lot of questions, but I'm going to run out of time. That's why I put them forward. Don't be discouraged; I just need to understand it, because it has not gone well, from our perspective in Ontario.
There are a lot of questions there, and with all due respect, sir, I think there is a bit of tainting there of the province that you live in—and that I live in, as it happens.
For the record, none of that $1 billion that was spent in Ontario was federal funds that were wasted. For all the federal funds that went into Ontario we got absolute results. They have a world-class telehealth system, by the way, and we helped fund that telehealth system. A few years ago in Ontario, a senior would show up at a hospital and they would have absolutely no idea what medication that senior was on. We changed that and encouraged them to put the Ontario drug database, the ODB system, into the hospitals. As of last year, they had a million hits on that file; now they are actually looking at what individual medications they were on.
So we've had, with our federal funds, a lot of successes in Ontario. The moneys that were reported on were clearly moneys that we had no dealings with and didn't spend.
In terms of strategic plans, absolutely Infoway has from the get-go had a strategic plan in place. It manifests itself in terms of the priority areas and the programs that we would invest in. We had over 600 people involved in consensus building around the blueprint and the architecture as provinces began their work. Clearly, over time, as new technologies come along and as new learning comes along, you have to go back to revisit and refresh your plans or take them to a deeper level. That is exactly what we did six years on.
If you sat in Alberta and had an electronic health record with 20,000 users; if you sat in British Columbia and had a fully functioning pharmacy system; if you sat in Nova Scotia or Newfoundland and had all your community pharmacists on the system; or if you had an entire province digitized, I believe, sir, you would have a different opinion. A lot of progress has been achieved. I will say this: clearly, the larger the province and jurisdiction you are, the tougher the job is. It is tough for Quebec and it is tough for Ontario. Then, if you get hiccups in terms of management, hiccups in terms of governance, those plans take that much longer.
From where we sit, we can encourage them, we can incent them, but we can't do the job for them.
:
Thank you very much, Chair.
The proof is going to be in the pudding, as the Auditor General has said, concerning the follow-up, as to whether everything that makes for a fairly good picture today holds.
I have to tell you, Mr. Alvarez, you certainly give the impression of being someone who is very forthright and who knows his file. Notwithstanding that this isn't perfect, you seem to have a good handle on your organization. I have been impressed. The challenges here are serious.
I'm going to give Bev a quick heads-up.
Bev, if you want to do a follow-up question, I'm prepared to give you a minute or two of my time. You seem to have some good questions, and I will offer that time to you, as I'm just wrapping up here.
Again, I would just wish you the best, and we'll see when we do the follow-up how things are. But if it's anything like the impression you've given today, I'm feeling more confident than I might have before this meeting was held. Thank you for that.
I offer to my colleague, Mr. Shipley, the balance of my time, if he would like it.
:
Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.
I have just one question.
Auditor General, in paragraph 12 of your speaking notes you say “it is too soon to determine whether the systems in each jurisdiction will be compatible nationally”. I would have thought that at the start of this thing in 2001 there would have been some sort of plan that would say that systems had to be compatible. Here we are now, in 2010, and we're asking the question.
Is it not something that should have been there? It was just a sort of guiding comment, I guess, but it goes back to my concern about the lack of direction, the lack of accountability to move ahead. Nine years later, now, we're sitting at 50% of where we should be.
Your question came back as a basis to where did we start. I want to come back to one of the points that my colleagues made. Within Canada we started across the country in very different positions. Even within provinces, you start from different positions, with some hospitals having their own well-developed systems, maybe two decades old, and some provinces having none. When Infoway began, there was a vision and there was a goal. One of Canada's opportunities is that from the beginning the goal was national—to have information that moved nationally, which was identified with the patient and not with just the hospital or the physician. I think it is a significant goal, but it takes time to achieve.
Look at Denmark and New Zealand—they are examples of the time required in small countries. New Zealand has only two million people, and think of the geography. With a very federal system, it took them 17 years. It took Denmark 16 years. It took Veterans Affairs in the United States 16 years. So good progress is being made. There are areas of difficulty, but there are significant benefits. The audits have been extremely helpful in pointing out where things need to be strengthened; they have called attention to this issue.
:
There's a whole host of safeguards and principles that we've operated on from the get-go. One of them was that information systems of this nature should be coming out of the private sector. We are not funding governments to build huge bureaucracies to develop these systems.
The other issue is, we wanted to make sure of two things. We wanted to make sure we had a strong and vibrant software industry in Canada that could sell globally, given that some of the issues would be clearly on the leading edge. We also wanted to make sure that we could replicate these systems across the country, and that's exactly what we're doing. You can't take government systems and try to replicate them. Who maintains the system at the end? So the private sector has a role to play.
One of the differences that differentiated us from the efforts in England and other places was that we worked closely with the private sector, telling them where the puck was going to be: what the requirements are, what the standards are, what the availabilities are, when the provinces are going to be ready to start to tender out, to start to get their RFPs. This way they can bring their resources and their intellects to bear.
There's a major report by an international group, which reports on IT systems, that gives us high praise for the blueprint and how it's been orchestrated. The vendors have been working with that blueprint as they develop the system.
:
As I said, we've done a couple of studies.
On one of the things we did, again, as far as I know—and I've now been in this job for the last six years and I have a pretty good handle on it internationally—we're one of the only countries that has had a benefit measurement framework.
Not only have we taken these reports and said it's $6 billion and $7 billion—and we've heard it could be higher—but we wanted to put in place a benefit mechanism that asks whether we are getting those benefits.
We brought in some of the brightest minds from the research community, some of the international guys, and a lot of our guys in Canada. They designed a framework for us that has a variety of indicators. As we fund projects and these projects come on line, we then go back and systematically measure whether those benefits have been achieved.
I've talked about diagnostic imaging. We're about to publish one on drugs. For even the few provinces that we have, we're looking at benefits in the region of about $450 million a year. When you extrapolate that, it's well over $1 billion a year for Canadians. There are big benefits.
Again, as some of the other systems come on board, we'll be doing the same type of measurement work.
:
First, thank you for this opportunity. If I said it would be a real joy to come back, I may have been overstating the case—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Mr. Richard Alvarez: —but I will obviously be delighted to come back.
I will leave you with this. I often get asked the question, because of its great importance to the transformation of records: why is it taking so long? My response is, why is it taking so long compared to what?
When you think about our banking systems today, it took 10 years, from when the first bank got its general ledger in, to get the rest of its branches online. It took an additional 10 years, meaning 20 years in total, for the first Interac transaction; and it took an additional 10 years before you or I could access our own bank account at home. When you think that it took 30 years, or 20 years at minimum, for the banks to do that and you think about their credits and debits, and you also think about the number and complexity of transactions in health care, it's going to take a long while. I believe that in the next 10 or so years, this country will make tremendous progress.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Alvarez.
Dr. Dodds, do you have any closing comments? Okay.
Again, on behalf of all members of the committee, I want to thank you very much. The witnesses are excused.
Before I adjourn, there are two items I want to deal with. The first item, colleagues, is the approval of the minutes of the steering committee. They've been circulated.
I just want to highlight three things. One, of course, is that we are scheduling a hearing for the peer review in September. Because it will be done via teleconference with the principals who are in Australia, it will be done outside normal hours, probably in the evening—but you will be given sufficient notice.
The second item is that we are going to have hearings in the fall on the Auditor General's special report on the Canada Post Corporation and the Canada Science and Technology Museum Corporation.
Thirdly, the committee has authorized our budget to be presented to the Liaison Committee for our attendance at the annual meeting of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees, which is being held in Quebec City in August of this year.
So people have read those minutes. The chair would entertain a motion.