:
I'd like to call the meeting to order.
I would like to welcome the witnesses today. As you well know, we are looking at discussing, and hearing from you about, your experience and any information you have to offer us with regard to the participation of women in non-traditional roles.
I want to welcome all of you today: the Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories, with Ms. Phaneuf; the Native Women's Association of Canada, with Ms. Calder; the Métis National Council, with Ms. Watteyne; the president of the Métis Women of Saskatchewan, Madam Bailey; and Denise Thomas, the vice-president of the Southeast Region of the Manitoba Métis Federation.
I'll just quickly let you know what we do usually at these things. You have 10 minutes. There are three groups. Many of you are in one particular group. Each of the three groups—i.e., the Métis National Council, the Native Women's Association of Canada, and the Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories—has 10 minutes to present to us. I will give you a flag when your time is ending so that you can wrap up. After that, there will be a question-and-answer series in which the members of the committee will ask you questions and you will answer.
We should begin with the Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories.
Ms. Phaneuf, welcome.
:
Good afternoon, everyone.
I've journeyed since Friday, because I stopped here and there. It's a long journey to get here, but I'm very happy to be here.
This year our council is just finishing up the Northern Women in Mining, Oil and Gas project. Along with our other duties, we have done a special project around non-traditional trades for women who are under-represented in the workforce.
I'll just start by giving a brief description of the project.
The Status of Women Council and their project partners introduced Northern Women in Mining, Oil and Gas, a project that attempted to answer the following research question. Given the current population of unemployed and underemployed women in the Northwest Territories, will a dedicated women-only, partnership-based, and strategic approach to training and development be successful in increasing the interest levels and participation and retention rates of women in industrial and trades-based occupations in the northern mining, oil, and gas industries?
Having almost concluded the project, we realize our research question was too long. Were we to do another project, we would actually probably shorten up that research question a little bit.
The anticipated barriers, or social challenges, for women to enter the trades-based occupations were lack of appropriate education and skills, often; sometimes the only primary caregiver; limited training opportunities; financial restrictions; perception and traditional perspective that trades occupations are not for women; and social issues around abuse and addictions. The top three barriers identified by applicants, and consistent with proposal research, were the lack of the right skills and education, financial concerns, and an image that it's a man's working environment.
In the project, we did three different types of courses. We did exposure courses, which were five-week courses offered mainly in the evening around carpentry. We did do two community-based projects. One was in Trout Lake, which is a community of 90 people, and we did an HEO, heavy equipment operation, course there. We also did a summer airport maintenance course in Hay River, which is a bigger community in the north, with perhaps 1,000 to 1,500 people. Both of those were very successful. The women who took the training are looking for additional training. Some are working, some are faced with daycare issues, but they actually passed the course while we were there.
We did a trades access program, which was an academic program that challenged women to enter the trades entrance exam. What they did is mostly an upgrading kind of education to help them pass the trades entrance exam. The intention was for the women to write the trades entrance exam and move into apprenticeship programs, and attain employment in the trades. Prior to the conception of the project, we had made some connections with the mining companies and they had intended on hiring women once they passed. They did hire three of the women, but with the downturn of the global economy, we're still waiting for them to hire more.
We also did a building trades helper program, which was a 12-week program. It was combined hands-on training with basic academics, and a Ready to Work North program. It prepared women for entry-level positions in the trades industry. We did have a lot of success around those kinds of courses, and the mines were very happy to hire them.
The biggest issue with the mining in the Northwest Territories is because of the two weeks in, two weeks out, so if mothers are single parents, it's often very challenging for them to find a place for their youngsters.
In the project we did a wraparound service, so women in the project were offered all different kinds of wraparound services such as upgrading, so if they were having trouble at school, they could go to a tutor after hours. We did referrals to get them into housing, and we tried to get them child care, all those kinds of things. In the north they have a student FSA program, which is like a student loan program where, if people work in the north, their loans are forgiven.
So they all got those. Personal counselling, housing advocacy, transportation...the women were given the funds to travel from the communities, which in the Northwest Territories can be very expensive. We gave them work clothing, phone cards, grocery gift cards, and anything to help them be successful in their programs.
In year one we had 37 applications; in year two, 43 applications; and in year three, 73 applications. Now that we're waiting for funding we have women on waiting lists trying to get into the program. After three years our program is beginning to be known in the north, so women are interested, but we're waiting for new funding.
On the challenges for our program, academic entry requirements for parts of the training made it difficult to recruit qualified candidates, so a lot of the women who applied did not qualify for the upgrading at Aurora College, which is a community college in the north.
The retention of women beyond the training into trade-specific apprenticeship programs was not always successful. Often that was due to child care or addictions issues. Participants in the programs did not seem interested in pursuing careers in the trades, despite the barriers being addressed. So probably the next thing we will research is why they entered. There are different ideas about why women do that. If they are in certain programs it might be a way for them to qualify for other programs. We're not quite sure why they would enter if they weren't interested.
The mining industry requires skilled professions and educational requirements. Traditional values and child care responsibilities pose significant challenges in filling these positions. A lot of that is due to the two weeks in, two weeks out. Of course the economic recession did not allow for new staff hires.
On the successes, 23 women successfully completed the Building Trades Helper and Trades Access programs. Women have written their trades entrance exams. Five women have attained employment post training and are still working. We have found with the program that although they may not have gone into trades-related programs, they are now working. They might be working at a library; it might not be with a shovel, but they are working. So in terms of that we've had huge successes.
Am I out of time?
I'll give you an example of one of the very first participants. When she entered into the program she had just moved from Nunavut and was couch-surfing in Yellowknife. After having all the wraparound services, she now works at BHP and is making a very good salary. Her 15-year-old son is also working. He works at Boston Pizza. This woman was about 43 years old and she had never really had gainful employment. Now she's working and her son is working.
She once said to me, which really touched me, that having her own money--being given that opportunity--meant she was the boss of herself now and she didn't have to rely on supports in the Northwest Territories for living or even to take care of her boy. She's very independent. She's been in the De Beers posters and in the paper. She's almost a bit of a celebrity in the Northwest Territories. She's gone from that level of dependency on government support to making close to $100,000 in three years. They're not all like that, but she was one of the very first women who applied. Throughout those three years the counsellors at the Status of Women have worked with her and encouraged her to remain in her employment.
So we're a little challenged as to what we'll do if we don't get the funding, because we've created a need in the Northwest Territories. Not only do women in the program come for advice, but women in the trades in general come for advocacy.
That's where we sit in the Northwest Territories.
Good afternoon, everybody.
My name is Carey Calder. I am a two-spirited Ojibway woman originally from northwestern Ontario, and I relocated to Ottawa about seven years ago. I am the manager of labour market development with the Native Women's Association of Canada, otherwise known as NWAC.
NWAC is one of the five national aboriginal organizations in Canada and the only one specifically representing aboriginal women. Our mission is to facilitate aboriginal women's meaningful participation in the development of legislation and policies that reflect the unique needs of aboriginal women.
We strive to highlight best practice models and policy using a culturally relevant gender-based analysis in all of the approaches to the work that we do. NWAC has led the development of the CRGBA, or culturally relevant gender-based analysis tool, which provides a holistic policy perspective on where aboriginal women stand on issues and is particularly relevant to identify desired outcomes and measures of performance.
For example, using the CRGBA, one might look at the social determinants of health that have been identified in Canada, in that just being aboriginal already puts you at a disadvantage but being aboriginal and female is a double disadvantage. So we have to take that into consideration when looking at policies and programs.
NWAC is the expert at applying the CRGBA lens to legislation and policy, so it is with great interest that we are able to participate here today and provide some comments on increasing the participation of women in non-traditional occupations.
Our key message today in using the CRGBA context is to appropriately support the participation of aboriginal women in non-traditional occupations: first, to ensure that aboriginal women have equitable access and are represented and reflected in non-traditional occupations; and secondly, that aboriginal women are under-represented in all occupations, yet we have rising rates of attainment in post-secondary in the business, health, and education fields.
Further to the first point, just to start, in order to increase participation we must ensure that aboriginal women have equitable access and are represented and respected in the non-traditional occupations.
Aboriginal women who seek a rewarding career in trades, industry sectors, and apprenticeships continue to face barriers that impact equitable access and participation levels. We must first address the existing barriers that are beyond the control of job seekers. We have to consider that gender-based analysis, and certainly a culturally relevant gender-based analysis, was not utilized when recruitment strategies were originally designed. The planning around how this might have happened or evolved wasn't part of the initial discussions, so now we have to find ways to ensure that women have access and are equitably represented in all these occupations.
It is not enough to simply state a target for participation levels, although that would at least be a start. We have to make sure that all avenues and doors are opened and that we are adequately prepared to meet the unique challenges of aboriginal women.
So it's things like, how are maternity leave policies built into career plans? Is it encouraged within those environments? How does it affect their seniority when they come back to work?
We need real strategies to address the racism and the sexism that still exists in these environments. Conversations held within male-dominated work environments are not always conducive to a healthy welcoming environment for women. So we must recognize that there may need to be a cultural shift within certain environments in order to increase the participation levels in a sustainable way.
In terms of some of the recommendations, we have seen a growing focus on getting aboriginal people, in particular youth, into trades through marketing and promotional campaigns. Yet this often lacks a connection with the employers. There needs to be real and actual opportunities for paid employment or on-the-job training, and employer commitments to apprenticeship agreements. This means shifting attention to the employers so that the demographic breakdown of their workforce is, firstly, shared, and that it is clearly understood. So how have they been performing in their own recruitment and retention strategies; and does the governing legislation, wherever those employers are located, also support the strategies they have in place? What is their demonstrated commitment to ensure aboriginal workers are well represented in the workforce? And more to the point, what specific considerations have been made for aboriginal women?
Secondly, one of our messages is that to increase the participation rates of aboriginal women in one particular sector, we must first look at the fact that aboriginal women are under-represented in all occupations, despite raised rates of attainment in post-secondary in the business, health, and education fields.
There's a noted decrease in the proportion of aboriginal women who are obtaining their trades certificates. For example, between 2001 and 2006 it went from 12% to 9%, and yet there's an overall increase in educational attainment based on the completion of college diplomas and university degrees. In 2006 aboriginal women were more likely to have a college and university credential than their male counterparts.
It's also important to note that the gap between aboriginal women and non-aboriginal women narrowed between 2001 and 2006. Basically what we're seeing is a trend toward aboriginal women who are demonstrating significant successes when it comes to post-secondary attainment. They're not necessarily always getting into the trade.
The recommendation based on that is that due to the fact that aboriginal women are under-represented in all occupations, we need to promote that opportunities appropriately be in place to ensure that demonstrated successes are then realized in actual employment. Focus employment initiatives for women in areas where they're attaining higher education based on where they want to be. Meet the need and the demand, which then provides the framework and the best practice models to apply in this area of work that you're doing. It's important that we not be reactionary in our responses to what is the sector of the day and try to stream people into certain areas.
In closing, we also want to address the term “non-traditional occupations”. The assumption there is that the reference here is to occupations within male-dominated environments such as trades, transport, and industry. It's critical to point out that women continue to be under-represented in management occupations generally. One could argue that senior management and decision-making occupations could also be defined as non-traditional for women, and that strategies, policies, and discussions in this area also need to be addressed. Strategies must provide models of inclusion of aboriginal women as full participants in the economic benefits that Canada has to offer.
Thank you for the opportunity to be able to present to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women and we look forward to our continued involvement in this area.
I'd like to begin by thanking all the honourable members for inviting the Métis National Council to appear before you today.
The Métis National Council represents the Métis Nation at the national level. It speaks on behalf of the entire Métis Nation. Women account for 50.6% of all Métis in the Métis homeland region of Canada, which includes the provinces of Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia. The 1996 census reveals that altogether there were a little over 170,000 Métis women in our homeland.
Our population is very youthful, with 25% of Métis women in the homeland region under 15 years old and 26% between the ages of 15 and 29. In other words, the majority of our Métis women are children and youth.
We come before you today largely to talk about their future. Many of us have made career choices imposed by our times and circumstances. Although we've seen rapid change in gender-based conceptions of female roles and occupations in our own lifetime, the task is far from complete and the results are far from satisfactory. Our hope is that through the work of this committee and the persistent efforts of our leaders in industry and government, we will create a more level playing field for aboriginal women in the Canadian labour market and a better, more promising future for our young Métis women.
It's important to put to rest one major misconception about Métis and other aboriginal women. It's a belief that we're not in the workforce. In fact when we look at it, the labour force participation rates of Métis women 15 years and older in 2006 was about 67%, which is above average for women generally in the homeland region. Overall, 62.8% of women are in the workforce. Even after adjusting for differences in age and profiles between Métis and the general population, Métis female participation rates are very close to the equivalent rates in the general population. Métis women are already integrated into the Canadian economy and it's a fiction to maintain otherwise.
The simple fact of the matter is that the economic integration has not led to equitable benefits. Our unemployment rates remain significantly high, and therefore the proportion of our working age population with a job is also lower than for the general population. But nothing illustrates the disparities between Métis women and the general population better than employment income.
The committee should be aware that based on the 2006 census, the average employment income of an adult male in Canada was $45,588 in 2005. Male incomes are really what we have to compare ourselves to if we are looking at gender equality. Unfortunately, we have a long way to go as far as the income of Métis women is concerned. We are at a mere $23,253 per year, which is 48.8% less than mainstream males.
Our submission contains a table that provides information on the differential between male and Métis female employment income for each of the provinces within the Métis homeland. It is interesting to find that the largest differential exists in Alberta. The province had a booming economy at the time of our last census, and boasted the highest employment income of any province in Canada. But the women were just totally bypassed. Our average income in Alberta was still only at $24,060 a year, so we weren't in any better shape in Alberta than we were anywhere else in the homeland as far as our income rates go.
There are also disparities in the income of Métis women relative to Métis men. The average employment income of a woman is also lower than women in the general population by about 20% in the provinces of Ontario and Alberta. In Manitoba and Saskatchewan it's about 15% lower.
It's not our intention to bombard you with statistics. If the committee wants any more information on this matter we'd be happy to supply you with all the data we have.
Although Métis women participate fully in the Canadian economy, on average we have been relegated to lower-paying jobs. The question is why, and what we can do about it. There are a huge number of factors at play here. We do not pretend to have all the answers for you today.
There's no question the gender bias in occupational choice and hiring decisions is fundamental to understanding any differential between working men and women. High dropout rates and poor education attainment levels are also factors in explaining poor employment outcomes. Persistent discrimination and stereotyping against women and aboriginal people, though hard to measure, also no doubt contribute to the raising of the bar so high that few make it to the top.
However, fundamentally we find that Métis women tend to find employment in the more menial, less remunerative occupations within occupational sectors occupied by women. Métis women are generally drawn to the same types of occupations as women in the general population. We show a significantly higher propensity for work in sales and service occupations, which account for 39% of the Métis in the experienced workforce, compared with only 30% of women in the general population.
Within the Métis homeland, our occupational profile follows a pattern common to all women, with concentrations in the service sector, in occupations such as retail sales, health, education, government, and administration. A detailed occupational breakdown would show that, compared with women in the general population, Métis women tend to congregate in lower-paying jobs within these sectors.
This is where we become very interested in the concept of women's participation in non-traditional occupations. This concept is usually applied to occupations that traditionally have been held predominantly by men.
The U.S. Department of Labor defines a non-traditional occupation as an occupation in which women account for 25% or less of the workforce. However, alternative definitions are possible, depending on how things are measured. We find that some occupations that are not classified as non-traditional for women in the general population become non-traditional for Métis and other aboriginal women. Definitions matter, and we urge the committee to examine this question in some detail.
The reason most often cited for wanting to increase the participation of women in occupations traditionally dominated by men is that this will lead to higher employment income for women and close the income gap with men. This is certainly our goal, but we believe that some cautionary notes are warranted, not to dampen enthusiasm for this enterprise but to make sure that we consider all aspects of the issue.
The fact of the matter is that society throughout history has always undervalued women's work relative to men's. Women are increasingly, in fact, entering into male-dominated occupations—slowly, but surely. For example, this is occurring in trades and other traditional labour-oriented occupations at the present time. Métis women are leading the way in penetrating these occupations in western Canada. Métis women account for only 1.6% of the female workforce in the Métis homeland, but they account for close to 7% of women working as logging operators and heavy equipment operators and are relatively overrepresented also in a range of trade and trade-related occupations, such as plumbers, pipefitters, and labourers.
We are far from convinced that this has had major impact on women's incomes. As women move into male-dominated occupations, it becomes more important than ever to ensure that women are paid equitably: equal pay for work of equal value.
A second point that the committee should consider is the importance of investing in education and skills development. The majority of jobs in this country do not require a university education, but they do require skills and experience. If we are trying to get more aboriginal women into the trades or into mining, forestry, and other resource occupations, or into higher-paying engineering, drafting, and information technologies, or into assembly line work, then we have to prepare them early, and particularly our young women, to enter these careers.
A number of initiatives could be undertaken to prepare Métis women to enter such occupations. First, many of you may be aware that the Government of Canada funds our aboriginal governments to provide labour market programs and services under what was formerly known as the aboriginal human resources development strategy, which has now morphed into the aboriginal skills and employment training strategy.
What you may not know is that the funding levels to aboriginal organizations under this program have remained static for over 10 years. The funding is critical. It enables our people, including our young women, to develop skills needed on the labour market. We urge the committee to recommend increased funding for this program and a stronger orientation for preparing women for non-traditional occupations.
Second, it is important to develop culturally sensitive programs that introduce Métis first nations and Inuit women to the potential of working in non-traditional occupations. How can women choose non-traditional occupations if they believe it is impossible for them to access these careers? No such program has been developed specifically for aboriginal people.
Third, we should not underestimate how significant an issue child care is to women generally and to Métis women in particular. Women are the caregivers. It is difficult for women, particularly with low incomes, to commit to a demanding career when they know that they will have to exit the labour force for extended periods to raise their children. Without adequate, accessible, and affordable child care, how can women be expected to enter challenging work environments?
For Métis and other aboriginal people, these problems are even more acute because of the high proportion of single-parent families in our communities. In the Métis homeland, some 15.1% of women over the age of 15 live in single-family households, and in provinces such as Saskatchewan the figure is even higher, 18.6%. Provincial child care subsidies are inadequate. We need a national child care system readily accessible to all women. Failing this, we would call on the committee to consider extending the first nations and Inuit child care initiative to Métis. This would enable our own organizations to begin to meet the needs of our young mothers.
Fourth, employers must be educated and given proper incentives to hire women, even in non-traditional occupations. The United States has had affirmative action programs in place for some time, and indications are that they have worked to increase the participation of women in non-traditional occupations. In Canada we should consider establishing employment equity standards and targets in non-traditional industries to encourage employers to hire women.
Finally, it is really important to overcome the gender and ethnic biases that poison the working environment for aboriginal women entering non-traditional occupations. We know that women can do as good a job as men. We know that aboriginal people can do as good a job as non-aboriginal people. But not only do aboriginal women face obstacles just to enter non-traditional occupations, we face all sorts of subtle and not-so-subtle discriminations in the workplace once we find a job in these non-traditional sectors. Among other things, we are less likely to be entrusted with responsibility or to be promoted. This will take time to change, but public authorities could also be more proactive in encouraging employers and co-workers to accept women and aboriginal women in the workplace.
Thank you for listening.
:
The program started with a proposal development team made up of community partners in Yellowknife and across the north. They worked with the college. We worked by doing enhancement courses to make the programs more relevant to women. We did things on budgeting, on what you do if you need child care, and on housing for single parents. They not only learned about the trades but they also learned about how to live and survive.
The intent was that we would get them all jobs. That did not happen. But as I said previously, because they got the self-esteem piece of it, and the life-long learning, it promoted their perhaps working in other areas.
We do wish to continue the program. The part that scares me the most about this project is that the women are still going to come to the council, because this project has made our organization user-friendly. So not only do the women of the project come, their friends come and their children come. We had to get crayons. And we do other kinds of programming for those women. It's not necessarily just upgrading.
Now we really have to think about a dedicated staff person in the Northwest Territories to continue that work. What happens is that sometimes people get discouraged. Because they've not worked for maybe 25 years, it's very difficult to all of a sudden leave their kids somewhere and go to a mine for two weeks.
So it's not only the working. It's the whole wraparound program that enables them to actually stay working. I think we'll probably keep that position there so that women in the Northwest Territories can just come to us.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good day to the witnesses. Thank you for coming here today. It was fascinating listening to you. We learned a lot about the problems faced by women living outside major urban centres. The experience of living in the regions is quite different.
As Ms. Thomas stated, “non- traditional“ means different things in different communities. It's not necessarily what we here associate with “non-traditional“, but these considerations can be important for women. I recall that when I travelled to Iqaluit in Nunavut, I noticed that all positions were held by White men from the South. All jobs, whether in the hotel or restaurant industry or in some other field, were, for the most part, held by non-aboriginal men who had very lucrative contracts. I wondered why these jobs were not occupied by women, given that in Iqaluit, many women are out of work and do not have the opportunity to develop these types of skills.
Since you work with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, I was also wondering if you discuss the various situations that exist in different communities to ensure that the programs truly meet the needs of the women that you are targeting.
I would also like to know if, in your opinion, it would be important to establish more long-term funding—since you did talk about funding—instead of resorting to project-based funding. Project-based funding does not necessarily target the same people as more long-term funding.
Ms. Thomas, Ms. Phaneuf and Ms. Calder, I'd like to get your opinion on this subject.
:
For us, as the Status of Women, it is very important. Probably the most important part of the project is the life-long learning and having the women working in sustainable positions.
I think our project will be deemed a success by the government, because we have learned that the wraparound services for the women are crucial for them to succeed. They are women we assessed for marginalization. We did not go and say, “Who is the best in the class? These are the people we're going to help.” We wanted to help the people who had been under-represented and who needed help. Even the assessment process was geared to those women.
For us, it's been a wonderful program. We have two government departments currently trying their best to fund us to continue the project. We did get funding for a pilot project. And you are right; three years is not long enough, because what it does is create a need.
Because we are an NGO, we won't stop doing the work. That work will fall on the shoulders of Lorraine Phaneuf, Annemieke Mulders, and all the women who work there, because we are not going to turn away women who need help and who we think we can help.
We had two project people, but the whole team is only a staff of six. Everybody worked on the mining project in some capacity.
:
For us, our journey with the federal government was very, very good. We did not really have the skill sets in the office to do their big cashflows. All of a sudden, it fell on the shoulders of...and it happened to be me. But they were very good with the partnership and with helping us build capacity in our organization. Our journey with them has actually been good.
We also had HRSDC. We were funded through the pan-Canadian initiative. We also got funding from INAC, which has the SINED fund. They helped with project management in terms of helping us figure out where we could get money and which would be the best departments to fund us.
For provincial partners, we had Education, Culture and Employment, which is the education piece in the Northwest Territories. For NGOs, we had the Native Women's Association, which we work very closely with all the time on other projects also. And we had De Beers, Diavik, and BHP, the three mining companies. We did have Irving Oil for a short period of time, but then negotiations were needed in other areas.
Our experience working with partners has been very good. I think it really added to the success of the project, because things we didn't have the capacity to do, others did.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for your wonderful presentations and your candour. It has been a very important and helpful addition to our deliberations and I do appreciate the advice that you've given this committee. I'm hoping that in our report we can indicate how very much we value that and how integral it will be in terms of addressing the needs of women, no matter where they work, whether it's inside the home--because we know that women work very hard in the home--or if they choose to aspire to work outside the home.
I have some little points of clarification. I hope you can help me. I'll start with Ms. Phaneuf, but anyone who has any thoughts, please jump in.
You talked about your training program being very successful, with 37 participants in year one and 41 in year two, and by year three, you were up to 73 participants. So very clearly there was a need and there was a real uptake.
Now, when you were talking about the funding, who funded you? Was it the mining companies plus Irving or was there another funder?
We've applied to the INAC folks, but unfortunately they can only fund us if we have a major funder because they can only fund a portion. They can't be the big funder. And we've applied to Status of Women Canada.
The federal minister, Helena Guergis, came to Hay River for our big opening. Maybe I'm being too boastful, but I feel she was impressed with the work we had done there, in seeing all of the community there for the opening of the course and all of the equipment there ready for the women. She had at that point urged me to apply for the funding for the corporate proposal. So we're just waiting to hear on that funding.
But if we don't get it, we're not going to stop. We're going to apply...you know, other funders will fund us. There is a labour market territorial fund, but it's very regional, so the communities would go in and we would probably have to apply for the money, and we could maybe help them implement the project and help them with the paperwork.
So it all depends on how the funding flows. It would be better if it just came to us, and then we can just help the communities when they need help.
:
One of the things we're noticing when we're talking about the participation of aboriginal women is that all aboriginal women tend to find professions that end up contributing back to families and communities. For quite some time we actually haven't done, and still continue not to do, a very good job, when we're doing census information, of capturing statistics of where we're already working and where we have been working. We tend to stay in our homes, sometimes caring for children longer but also caring for the elderly, and yet that's not being taken into account as being an actual certified personal support worker. With things like midwifery, traditionally if you're doing that but you don't have a mainstream certificate, that's not being captured.
So a lot of this work has already been done. As opportunities are increasing for post-secondary, we're finding oftentimes that the interest lies in health, education, and the types of fields we are already working in.
That's not to say that we don't absolutely need specific supports for women who are looking outside of those traditional roles. We do, but when we put the emphasis in the promotion to say, “Get a job in the trades”, or, like my pen says, “Apprenticeship is hip”.... But what does that mean, and how is that actually contributing back? So we are suggesting to really look at supports for what we are already working towards.
The other point I was really trying to make on that is that despite the fact that we are performing...and aboriginal women are exceedingly successful at getting their post-secondary when that opportunity is available to them. There are a lot of barriers to that opportunity being available, but when it is, there are not always employment opportunities at the other end.
We know we're still dealing with racism. We know we're still dealing with sexism. We know we're still dealing with sometimes lack of opportunities or, I guess, “checkmark-box-able” opportunities in some locations; it might be informal work that is available in their community rather than perhaps what would be considered a job on the census.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome to our witnesses.
What the witnesses are telling us is very interesting indeed. We have already heard at length from witnesses and organizations on the subject of non-traditional fields, and one thing bothers me. Generally speaking, aboriginal women seem to experience far more obvious problems that women living in urban areas or non-aboriginal women. Aboriginal women have problems getting access to training. Not everyone has access to projects like yours in the different provinces.
That raises some questions in my mind about the situation of the different bands across the country and also in Quebec. In some communities in Quebec, and indeed in the North, women are experiencing major problems and cannot find any work. Training does not appear to be an important tool.
I would imagine that given your knowledge of your communities, you could tell me if there was an even stronger mindset present among aboriginal men, one that discourages women from leaving their communities or reserves and pursuing an interesting career?
I believe you have some statistics on this subject.
:
I'll try to answer that. That's a really big question.
I think you are hitting on a really important point. Aboriginal women are performing at lower indicators when it comes to social determinants of health than all other Canadians, and it's not a matter of what aboriginal men are doing on reserve. And even if you were to look at that example, that's a very small segment of the aboriginal population. It doesn't include Métis and Inuit.
One of the bigger things that we've been looking at in the work that we've been doing is really connecting how, holistically, it is difficult to have one program or one strategy that doesn't address some of the other realities that we continue to face. So when aboriginal people and communities are performing at a different level, the comparisons no longer relate. Living in poverty, not having access to health care, not having access to food or shelter--these certainly change the priority of whether or not you're deciding to get into a certain profession.
We talk a lot about aboriginal youth being the largest part of our population right now, but who's having those aboriginal youth? Aboriginal women have been starting their families, raising their families, and not participating in some of the other stimulus programs that have been available. So by the time they're ready to get in there, did they have a chance to finish high school? Did they have a chance to go to post-secondary? At what point are they going back and starting their career? I think all of the different layers that contribute to the realities of aboriginal people is what you're seeing in just this one example.
That's a very big question. We could probably spend a couple of months just on that alone.
:
In Manitoba, we have a Métis women organization that's part of the Manitoba Metis Federation--she has a seat on the board--so anything for training for women, the organization does give a lot of support to the Métis women of Manitoba. We give them a lot of support.
Well, I'm with the mainstream Manitoba Metis Federation, and we have a spokesperson, so we give a lot of support to the women who want to get into the non-traditional trades.
We have a lot of success stories. One of the things that we brought here today is a book that profiles the impact of the Métis labour force development program, Métis Works. If we can, we can leave this book for your information.
One of the examples of what we've done for the education of the Métis women--and for students as a whole, but it's been really helping the women--is we have a program that's called Standing Tall. It copies Tu Tangata from New Zealand. It's a pilot project, and we have videos on this. It is really helping the students to get a better education because this is where the parents are working within the school system. Through our aboriginal human resource development dollars, we are able to bring in some students--I think they were all Métis women because I was signing their cheques--to work within the schools to help the parents to be more involved in the education system. So that was a real success story.
Of course, we did a partnership and we're very much hoping that we continue with the Standing Tall project. We were able to second a school teacher from one of our school divisions to work with us on this. We do give a lot of support to the women in our province, and we'll continue to do so. But for non-traditional trades I think our problem is that a lot of them are in these non-traditional trades and their wages are not equitable with the men's.
We also do community-based training. We held community-based training for such things as firemen, and such things as heavy equipment operators. We've done that. I see one of my women who is operating one of those big machines. We're really proud of all that.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, ladies. I think you've given us some significant insight into some of the issues.
There are a couple of things, and I'm going to try to bundle some of these questions.
First of all, I think we need to correct the record. The money for the healing centres is now just coming from a different fund. There's $199 million coming through Health Canada, not through INAC. So it's a different funding source.
Ms. Calder, could you give us any percentages of women who are working in traditional roles from the aboriginal community, women who have gone into, say, nursing or teaching? Are there pay standards in the provinces so that women in those jobs would be accomplishing a certain income level?
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I found Ms. Brown's comments quite interesting. In Quebec, the SOCLE provides microcredit to persons looking to start up a business. I think that is very interesting, because in terms of employment opportunities, small businesses are probably the solution for the future.
Ms. Phaneuf, I was very interested to hear what you had to say about child care for women who want to enter the labour force. When I'm confronted with a problem, I see an opportunity. You mentioned cooperatives, and I was wondering if perhaps one solution might be to set up cooperatives managed by aboriginal grandmothers who would be paid for their services and at the same time transfer their values and cultures to the children in their care. Grandmothers always make the best babysitters, of course. If there is an opportunity to have well-structured child care services, then so much the better.
What about possibly setting up user cooperatives? Persons using day care services could determine the needs of these cooperatives and how they should be run. I like this idea, which could be an answer to your problems.
:
I don't know if it's literally someone slamming a door in your face, but it's what opportunities are provided. So building on one of the things about pay equity, if a certain amount of dollars is available for types of jobs, if those jobs are just the entry level and they're not getting the apprenticeship agreement, then they could be entry level labourers year after year. There's no question, just by their nature, apprenticeships are male-dominated environments. In many cases, it's about what opportunities are already there. So you're hearing about things because your uncle has worked there or maybe your dad. That's how things are; that's the network connection that apprenticeships were originally based on.
To get past that, sometimes, when we're talking about having women in non-traditional occupations, we're not looking for women to get into these fields to be one of the guys. We're looking for women to be working in these fields as women. We're now looking at how to increase the participation. If there wasn't a plan in place on how to deal with it or how that looks, there is an intimidation factor somewhere, and I'm not sure what we need to do. I guess that's the work you're doing, providing a road map on how things have to change to increase the participation.
I guess one of the questions I've been having with the committee, because I'm not aware of the work, is how much information you already have about retention for women in non-traditional roles to date. What are building on, based on recommendations from retention strategies thus far?
I didn't realize that specific work was being done with aboriginal women as part of this panel, but it would be interesting to see more work with the NAOs about what we can contribute to the work we've already been doing for over 10 years in the employment and training sector.
A little under five minutes are left, and I would like to ask a question of the panel.
It's recognized...and I think it's following up on Ms. Brown's question, the idea of women going into entrepreneurial jobs and going to banks. We know what banks have always said. I mean, some of the work done on indicators for women going into business is that banks have a gender neutral policy in which they require certain concrete pieces of chattel to lend money. It is well known that only certain women have the concrete pieces of chattel. Many women don't. So then they have to go to a male person, either the father or the brother or the uncle, to put up the piece of chattel for them.
We had brought forward, as the government of that day, something called women's enterprise centres, in which women could do the kind of microcredit that Ms. Demers was talking about. It was only for women to go to. It helped women to develop a work plan. It lent them tiny amounts of money if they wanted, and they didn't have to put up the usual chattel. They just had to have a good work plan, one in which the women's enterprise centres kind of shuffled them along.
Is that occurring still, and do you think that would be very helpful for aboriginal women?