My name is Richard Stursberg. I am the head of English services for the CBC, including television, radio, websites, and so on.
Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to come and talk with you today. I understand that you've invited me here as head of CBC's English services to discuss our March broadcast of this year's Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame gala.
In order to do that, I think it's important to provide you with some context about how we at English services contribute to Canada's shared national identity.
First, as you know, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an arms'-length crown corporation. Its mandate, as well as the independence of its programming decisions, is spelled out in law in the Broadcasting Act.
[Translation]
I want you to know that, as Canada's public broadcaster, I believe we have a special role to play providing opportunities for French- and English-speaking Canadians to share their culture, their views, and their experiences. No other broadcaster is this country does this. At CBC we do it every day.
[English]
I'm not talking about symbolic or token gestures to put one culture in front of the other. I'm talking about sharing cultures in a meaningful way. I'm talking about taking creative ideas from one culture and adapting them for the other in a way that works for the audience and in a way that respects both cultures and the broadcast medium.
[Translation]
That why CBC and Radio-Canada work together in joint projects of deep cultural significant to both cultures: Documentaries like Hockey, a People's History, or the mini-series on Trudeau, and Lévesque. These are not some cheap translation of another language's programs. They are created together, from inception to broadcast.
When we produced the sitcom Ciao Bella!, a lighthearted look at the experiences of an Italian-Canadian woman living in Montreal, we shot every episode twice: Once in English, once in French. The completed series run on both CBC Television and la télévision de Radio-Canada.
Every day our foreign correspondents give a Canadian perspective on international events—filing their reports in English and French. No one else does that. On election nights, and for significant nation-building events, CBC and Radio-Canada work together to offer the best national perspective Canadians can get. In the last two years alone, we have jointly produced over 200 specials.
[English]
At CBC English services, we continually look for new ways to bring French culture to English Canadians in a way that will resonate with our audiences. In 2004 we launched the half-hour weekly show Au Courant, with Mitsou Gélinas. This show is dedicated to telling English-Canadian audiences about what French Canadians were talking about that week.
[Translation]
In fact, I had the pleasure of being President of Telefilm Canada and when we produced Denis Arcand's feature film, Les invasions barbares, Mitsou was part of the film cast. That is how I ended up having the pleasure of meeting her. It was therefore my idea to invite Mitsou to be the moderator of this show.
[English]
We chose Mitsou because she is an artist some English Canadians are at least a little familiar with from her career as an actress and as a pop star.
[Translation]
On CBC television in the past three years alone, we have broadcast French-language hits like Les Boys, Grande Ourse, and Seducing Dr. Louis (La grande séduction), as well as 36 other French-language titles representing almost 70 hours of programming.
Since 2002, our Newsworld documentary stream, The Lens, has commissioned and broadcast more than 30 documentaries with our colleagues at RDI or with other French-language broadcasters. We co-produced the award winning Culture-choc/Culture Shock, where emerging anglophone and francophone journalists share their perceptions of the experiences of other Canadians as they travel across the country.
[English]
On our English web radio service and on Sirius Satellite Radio we offer a segment called The French Connection. On this show our host, Craig Norris, holds a music exchange with our colleagues at Bande à part at Radio-Canada; they introduce new music to each other and to our audiences.
Several times a year, CBC Radio 3 and Bande à part host live events together, bilingual concerts with musicians performing in French and English. We did this last month during Canadian Music Week.
[Translation]
On CBC English radio, the successful C'est la vie continues to offer English Canadians a window into the lives of French-speaking Canadians from across the country. It has celebrated the career of diva Diane Dufresne, talked to a new wave of young, political filmmakers, traced the origin of poutine, and celebrated French love songs. One of its most popular segments is Word of the Week, which introduces anglophones to distinctly Canadian French words and phrases. The English radio program À propos broadcasts nothing but French music and French artists from Canada and around the world.
Last fall, CBC Regina and Radio-Canada put together Mon pays, My country, a bilingual evening of country music featuring Brad Johner, Donny Parenteau, Véronique L'Abbé and Louis Bérubé.
[English]
We have broadcast Marco Calliari performing at Festival du Bois in British Columbia; Brigitte Poulin and Silvia Mandolini, two of Montreal's hottest new artists, performing the Canadian premiere of Le souvenir de l'oubli by Montreal composer François Rose; and Terez Montcalm singing in French and English at the Franco-Manitoban Cultural Centre. The list is extensive.
Canada Live broadcasts live concerts from every region of the country; one-third of that content features French artists. It was Canada Live, in fact, that broadcast the entire Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame gala.
[Translation]
Now let me say a few things about the songwriters' gala. CBC has hosted the gala for the past three years. The actual program is long—over three hours. Every year, we have broadcast the entire three and a half hour program on CBC Radio 2—you can do that on radio. It was also broadcast on CBC Radio One. Every year, we also take an edited version of the show—cut from three and a half hours down to 44 minutes—to broadcast on CBC Television. That edited program features artists that are popular with our audience. That's what we did this year.
Now, I understand that songwriter Claude Dubois was upset that he was honoured at the gala but was not part of the broadcast on CBC English television. I'm sorry he feels that way. And I'm sorry for the perception in the Quebec media that we at CBC English services were insulting French artists. That was not our intention. For all of that, I am really sorry.
But frankly, to call us racists and anti-French is outrageous, and I am a little surprised that members of Parliament, who were quick to express their desire to investigate our broadcast, did not speak out against that kind of attack. It is beneath us as a country; it is insulting to the people across CBC's English services who work in all the ways I have described, to try and find ways to showcase the Quebec culture to our English audiences in a way that works. That's not an easy task, and to call them racists is wrong and unfair.
[English]
Remember, we at CBC English services are making programs that are by definition for English-speaking audiences. If they don't understand our programs or can't relate to them, they won't watch them. It's as simple as that.
So we find ways to adapt French culture in ways that they will watch: stories like Rumours, our version of the French hit comedy Rumeurs; or our current hit Sophie, set in Toronto instead of Montreal, as is Les hauts et les bas de Sophie Paquin.
We will continue to look for those kinds of stories, for ways to showcase French artists, for ways to tell English Canadians about what's going on in French-language communities, for ways that CBC and Radio-Canada can work together to bring the best to Canadians. We do it because we believe in it.
Now I'd be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
:
Mr. Stursberg, thank you for coming today.
I have been working for the unity of this country for 25 years. For 25 years, modestly and humbly, I have been trying to build bridges between the communities. Your role is not to tell us that members are at fault because they were too quick in asking for an investigation. It is most certainly not our fault when an event has been held to celebrate singer-songwriters... Your job does not consist solely in pleasing an English audience. It is to demonstrate—and you'll probably talk about Mitsou and poutine again—that the purpose of this event was to celebrate what this country represents: two languages, several cultures, including francophone culture and anglophone culture, and the founding peoples of this country.
My citizenship is inclusive in that regard. You can talk to me about all the events that you hold, and we congratulate you on that. However, one specific event is a responsibility. When we ask for an investigation, it's because we want to know what is going on and we want to see the other side of the coin.
I am a fan of Claude Dubois. To be frank, I was insulted. There is also Raymond Lévesque. I am not a separatist, my culture is non-partisan. This is like me asking to take a photograph of us and asking you to stand in the background. That way I can cut it up and take what suits me.
I don't want to hold a cross-examination of CBC today; I want to understand what happened. Put yourself in our shoes. If we were to tell anglophone singer-songwriters that because we only had 44 minutes we were going to cut everything that was anglophone because we francophones only listen to music in French and didn't need it, what would you think? It's a little insulting, Mr. Stursberg.
You can produce a program that includes everyone. In 40 minutes you can give equal representation to the French segments because these performers did exceptional work. The idea is not to tell you that you didn't take your responsibilities in other areas. We're not dealing with a Don Cherry syndrome today. We're talking about this event because we want to understand what happened.
It took two days of people up in arms before you apologized. I wasn't a member of the committee but from what I understand it's because of this that an investigation was requested. I would simply like to know if next year you're going to do the same sort of dirty work. If there are singer-songwriters and a gala is being held, then you'll be able to tell us that... The idea is not to please the audience. Radio-Canada/CBC's mandate is to showcase what is happening in our country.
Next year, if there are francophones, will we still be treated as second-class citizens or are you going to make sure that, as your mandate dictates, francophones and anglophones will be on an equal footing?
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Stursberg, thank you for coming today.
I would also like to thank my colleague, Daniel Petit, who put this topic on the committee's agenda. It was perfectly justified.
Mr. Stursberg, I'm going to try and analyze this issue as objectively as possible. From the perspective of identity and culture, I think that what I have heard you state is very harmful. Allow me to explain.
First, you say that your viewers were made up of anglophones and that you had to respect their culture and avoid offending them from that point of view. That was the issue. If I look at this from the other end of the lens, I see that Quebec pays 25% of the taxes provided to CBC, and francophones living outside Quebec also pay their share of the funding allocated to CBC. The issue is not viewers, the issue is respect on the part of a gala whose purpose is to showcase music, song, music composition and the performers who are the standard-bearers of that music.
You tell me that you produce documentaries, that's well and fine but this program was not a documentary. The purpose of this show was to present culture, Quebec, Franco-Canadian, Acadian, Anglo-Canadian cultures all together in order to show Canadian taxpayers, regardless of where they live, this extraordinary variety of artists.
Mr. Dubois stood up and banged his fist on the table. I don't think he was only doing it for himself, he was also doing it for the principle. You were surprised that the media reported this. Listen, the issue is not the media. This is striking! When we found out about this, we felt excluded.
I'm going to give you an example that will explain why I perceive CBC the way I do. It's unfortunate and it has to change. When the 1972 Summit Series was going to be produced, Foster Hewitt spent some time at the Soviet Union's embassy in order to learn how to pronounce the names of the Soviet players. It was a very good exercise. Yet, throughout his career, he never learned to pronounce the names of Jean-Guy Talbot, Yvan Cournoyer or even Jean Béliveau. La Soirée du hockey arrived in 1976 in Western Canada. Before then, we used to listen to CBC. We couldn't see ourselves in the "Djang-Gaille Tâllboat" and "Djînn Ballâvô". CBC is still like that. We don't see ourselves in this machine, we don't see our culture, our points of reference. When there was going to be a Radio-Canada station in Saskatoon, everyone talked about "CBC French". I never, ever, saw CBC referred to in Quebec as "SRC anglaise".
You want to meet the needs of your public. Fine, but showcase reality. Why was the word "racist" used? Because we were excluded. Excluding individuals implies taking one group and not taking the other. In this case, francophones felt excluded and we're pointing it out to you. Don't tell me that you do other programs; I know that and that's fine. But when you produce a show whose purpose is to showcase music, you must make the effort to ensure that a quarter of your 45 minutes of programming will reflect a quarter of Canadian taxpayers who are francophone and who have the right to be represented in these types of programs.
I read the articles. They appeared in the month of March, not so long ago. Have you started giving serious consideration to a better representation of the cultures throughout the Canadian territory during the next gala show?
Thank you, Mr. Stursberg, for appearing today. I wanted you to come today, to have the CBC here today, not to rehash the events concerning the songwriters gala and singer Claude Dubois, but rather to take the opportunity that issue highlighted to talk about how you're fulfilling two mandate items of the 1991 Broadcasting Act.
Before we go on to that discussion, I think something needs to be responded to, and that is that you can't have it both ways. You can't say on the one hand that your programming decisions are independent and then demand that members of Parliament respond to criticisms that some third party made about your independent programming decisions.
You stated earlier on that you're independent in your programming decisions, but then you also stated that you were surprised we didn't speak out against Mr. Claude Dubois's remarks. If your programming decisions are independent, then people's comments on them aren't really our responsibility, especially if they're not parliamentarians and are simply citizens.
That being said, the reason I wanted you here today is to talk about how you're fulfilling two items in the 1991 Broadcasting Act. In particular, subparagraph 3(1)(m)(iv) reads that your programming should include “the particular needs and circumstances of English and French linguistic minorities”, while subparagraph (vi) reads that your programming should “contribute to shared national consciousness and identity”.
In light of that, I think you've highlighted some of the things the corporation has been doing to fulfill that part of the act—the television show Sophie, and some of the other initiatives you've undertaken in recent years—but I think there are a lot of people who often wonder whether there isn't more that can be done.
I think about things such as newsgathering. I can't tell you how many nights I've watched the national news on the CBC's main television network, and then I watch the same national news on Radio-Canada, and they could be from two different countries, frankly: the topics, the focuses, are completely different. I think that while there have been some efforts to gather the news jointly, and I have seen that, in many cases it doesn't happen. That's one area in which I think the corporation could do a better job of fulfilling its mandate.
The other thing I've often been aware of is this. Radio services are fairly efficient, fairly cheap—they're not incredibly expensive—but in many parts of, for example, Ontario, you can't get the main French-language radio station. If you do, it's on the AM band, and the reception is awful. There's another example of how there's a cheap, efficient, effective way to deliver French-language services on radio that isn't happening right now. In my part of southwestern Ontario, it's almost impossible to get French-language services on a radio station from Radio-Canada.
Those are just two things I would point out where a better job could be done in fulfilling subparagraphs 3(1)(m)(iv) and (vi) within the 1991 Broadcasting Act.
Maybe you could respond to those two issues.
:
Sure, we would like to extend our radio services in both French and English. We were asked, actually, to make a proposal as to how to do this by, I think, if memory serves, originally the heritage committee. And we did; we tabled a report with them two years ago proposing exactly some means of doing that. So we totally agree.
I totally agree with you as well--as I agree with every member of the committee, which is why I'm a little bit struck by it—that the CBC has a fundamental responsibility to reflect and interpret both great cultures to each other. I totally agree with that. I totally agree with the premise of every single question here. I totally agree. And that's why, as I mentioned, we put such a long effort into figuring out how to do these things together and how to make this interpretation, but in a way, as I was saying earlier on, that actually works, given our different audiences and our different cultures.
I say this personally; I wanted a show called Au Courant , and I wanted Mitsou to do the show, because I wanted a show that was going to actually provide a window into French culture every single week. It was my idea to redo Rumeurs and to do it as Rumours; and the same thing with Les hauts et les bas de Sophie Paquin.
When it comes to journalists, we also agree with you. Many, many of our international journalists actually now report in both languages. I have to tell you, though, that finding people who can work in both languages is a challenge because it presupposes a level of fluency that's rare. But we completely agree with that. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we've done over 200 different pieces together in the last little while.
My colleague Sylvain Lafrance and I are jointly responsible for a fund within the organization that is dedicated to this very purpose, which is to make things that will work well in both French and English. So I completely agree.
My only point in all this, and I think it's an important point, is that we have to do this in a way that is congenial from the point of view of the audiences. If we do things that the audiences don't like or don't understand, we're not making any progress. They'll just say, “I don't know what that's about”, and they'll turn it off.
So how that actually helps the situation, I don't know. What I think helps the situation are programs that people find interesting, entertaining, and stimulating, that they want to watch, but explore these issues in a way that is--
Good morning, Mr. Stursberg.
We asked you to appear here today to try to determine what happened at the Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame gala. Naturally, you saw that there was quite an uproar, that a lot of people were complaining in the newspapers of Quebec and the rest of the country. Questions were raised about this show.
I think you've understood our questioning. It's because it is the hall of fame gala, the height of Canadian culture, and you are under an obligation, as an institution, to respect linguistic duality and multiculturalism. You have to; it is part of your mandate. Personally, I don't think you lived up to your mandate as far as this particular show was concerned. When you invited all of the artists to participate in those 44 minutes, you could at least have had the decency to broadcast the francophone artists.
You say your audience didn't want to see francophone artists on TV, but I don't agree with you. Personally, I am able to watch TV in English. How do Americans convey their culture to us? Through their music, through their culture, which is constantly being broadcast. How can we influence anglophones? Through our culture. It's a two-way street. You say that in Toronto, people only wanted to see anglophone artists, but that's not true. You can't get inside the heads of all Canadians. Some English Canadians want to hear our artists. You're dividing everyone into two camps. Those responsible for the gala decided not to give us a single minute out of 44 minutes. That is really insulting. It is for that reason alone that you are here today.
You also say you broadcast the full three hours of the gala on Radio 2 and an hour or two of it on Radio One. If you come to the Quebec City area, you'll see that no one listens to Radio-Canada radio, even in French. So don't try to tell me that was the right medium. What I want is television. It's the most important because it's modern. I don't mean to say that radio isn't, but television is important. I want to see my artists dancing, singing and expressing themselves, and I want the other cultures to be represented too.
My question is straightforward. In answer to a colleague's question, you seemed to be saying earlier that you were going to repeat the same format at the next hall of fame gala. Are you going to cut our artists' performances again, or are you going to hold some meetings with a view to a change in attitude? I am criticizing you, but I don't mean to criticize you personally, it's the CBC. I want to know if, of those 44 minutes, you're going to give us at least one minute. That's the minimum we're entitled to, given that we provide 33% of your budget.
Thank you.
:
Can you explain to me, then why you didn't ask them to cut out the French parts from the beginning? You knew that you didn't want the French parts to be broadcast on CBC television.
Why didn't you simply save money, since you weren't interested in showing the francophones in your show? Did you simply do this to save face and to give people the impression that perhaps they might have the opportunity to show their talent to the anglophones and the rest of Canada? Did you simply film everything to save face?
At least the francophones being filmed would have known clearly that they had no chance of breaking into the anglophone world. That's what we see.
That is the reality of many families in my riding where one parent is francophone and the other is anglophone. If one member of the family watches a show in French, the other does too. Another time, they might both watch an English show. Is it not exaggerating a little bit to say that your audience could change the channel? Your audience is also made up of families where one person is francophone and the other is anglophone. Furthermore, in some cases, anglophones want to learn more about this.
How do you expect this country's cultural diversity to be reflected if you start from the premise that anglophones will change their channel? Anglophones might be interested in watching prize-winning artists. These aren't new artists who just happen to be there. We are talking about the Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame.
Don't you think that anglophones would be interested in this, just as francophones are interested in learning about anglophone artists? Don't you think that Canadians, be they anglophones or francophones, might be interested in learning and knowing about something else, even if the CBC and you might be less open?
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Stursberg, here are my observations. First, you work for a public company. Francophones in Canada represent about 25% of the population. There is a critical mass in Quebec, but there are also francophones elsewhere throughout Canada. Consequently, they must see themselves reflected in a music hall of fame that reflects the entire country, Canada, 25% of the population of which speak a different language and have a different culture than that of English Canada. They must be included in a gala that wants to represent all of Canada.
It can't be any other way. It's as if we decided to show some goals in hockey because so and so scored them and not show other goals made by those who speak a different language or have a different culture. That wouldn't work.
Here, we're talking about songs; we're not talking about an English show where all the texts are in French. It's about songs, and a song can be in any language. When the band Kashtin or the Naskapis from the North Shore sang, they did so in their language, which is Montagnais. I saw them sing on the CBC and on the SRC. They weren't edited out because they didn't speak the language of the public station.
The message you're sending us—and I'm a sovereignist—is the rejection by English Canadians of Quebec francophone, Franco-Canadian, Acadian culture, and so on, during a gala of the Canadian music hall of fame. That message is wrong. I have English-speaking friends who are as interested in what is happening in French music, be it from Quebec or Acadie, as what is happening elsewhere in the world or in Canada in music.
As a result, there must not be such a barrier, please. Francophone Quebec taxpayers, just as much as anglophones, must see themselves reflected on television and on the radio, during a broadcast of the Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame gala, which must reflect the two official languages communities in Canada: the Quebec nation and the Canadian nation.
Stop saying that people don't want to see it. It's not true. It's public television. If they want to watch private Canadian, Quebec, American or any other television station, that's their right. But if they stopped to watch the Songwriters Hall of Fame gala, they're entitled to see both the Eva Avilas of the world, who sing and talk Spanish, French and English, and the Claude Dubois, even if they are less well known, in your opinion. You have every interest in exposing people to all artists.
This is not a question, it's a comment. I hope that you are going to take note of it for the next gala. In any case, the minutes of this meeting will be available.
Mr. Stursberg, as a corporation you have two broad responsibilities that you have to fulfill as part of your mandate. Certainly I think you've been underfunded in recent years, but that's not what we're talking about today. Today we're talking about your mandate and how you are fulfilling it.
Broadly speaking, you have a mandate to fulfill that reflects the diversity of the country--as it's stated in subparagraph 3(1)(m)(viii) of the Broadcasting Act, to “reflect the multiracial and multicultural nature of Canada”--but you also have a responsibility to reflect the linguistic duality of the country and to build a shared national consciousness and identity.
My view is that you're doing some of that well, but you're not doing other parts of it well. I'm a Toronto-area member of Parliament. I listen to CBC Radio One all the time and I watch the main television network all the time. I think especially in the last four or five years both those products, Radio One and the main television network, have really started to reflect the diversity of the greater Toronto area. I think CBC has done a very good job in that regard. But when I think about the other part of your mandate, which is to build this shared national consciousness and identity—an integral part of which is the linguistic duality of the country—I think in that regard, in the greater Toronto area, you've completely neglected that part of your mandate.
Other than the occasional program here and there, you would have no clue that Canada is an officially bilingual country, that its federal institutions are officially bilingual. You wouldn't have a clue of that if you were to listen to Radio One or to the main television network as a resident living in the greater Toronto area. The newscasts at the top of the hour on Radio One are in no way linked to the newscasts at the top of the hour on La Première Chaîne. The National on the main television network each night is pretty disconnected from Le Téléjournal on Radio-Canada.
I think in that regard, as I said before, you're doing some things well, but in terms of bridging the linguistic duality of the country, you're not.
If I look at Radio-Canada in Quebec, I think the opposite is true. Obviously you're fulfilling your mandate when it comes to delivering French-language programming there. I think arguably you're much more successful as a corporation there than in English-speaking Canada because of the fact that we're living on an English-speaking continent. But in terms of reflecting the diversity, the increasing diversity of the country, I don't get the sense that's happening in French-language programming to the extent that it's happening in English-language programming.
I do think there are big areas for improvement, and that's one of the reasons we have you here today. I think when we go on a tangent about other issues, then people start getting prickly about that stuff. But I do think it's important that the corporation look at this stuff in the longer term, because this is going to be the big challenge facing this country, and I would hope that CBC would have a big role to play in bridging those solitudes and in trying to meet its mandate.