SNAS Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION
Subcommittee on National Security of the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Thursday, April 29, 2004
| ¿ | 0910 |
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The Clerk of the Subcommittee (Mr. Georges Etoka) |
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Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair (Mr. Tom Wappel (Scarborough Southwest, Lib.)) |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, CPC) |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Wayne Easter |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
| ¿ | 0915 |
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Hon. Wayne Easter |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
| ¿ | 0920 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Derek Lee |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Wayne Easter |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Wayne Easter |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Wayne Easter |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Subcommittee on National Security of the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness |
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EVIDENCE
Thursday, April 29, 2004
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¿ 
(0910)
[English]
The Clerk of the Subcommittee (Mr. Georges Etoka): Honourable members, I see a quorum. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(1), we're going to proceed to the election of a chair. If I have more than one nomination, according to the rules we have to go to a secret ballot.
I'm ready to receive nominations.
Mr. Lee.
Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): I nominate Tom Wappel as chair of this subcommittee.
The Clerk: Mr. Lee is nominating Mr. Wappel.
As there are no other nominations, I declare Mr. Wappel elected.
Mr. Wappel, would you please take the chair?
The Chair (Mr. Tom Wappel (Scarborough Southwest, Lib.)): Thank you very much, for however long this lasts.
We have routine motions. I'm told by the clerk that the usual procedure is to adopt the same sorts of motions used by the main committee. That's fine.
The first one would be on the services of analysts from the Library of Parliament.
[Translation]
That the Subcommittee retain the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the Subcommittee in its work, at the discretion of the Chair.
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee: I so move.
The Chair: Is there any discussion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: The next is a motion to receive and publish evidence in the absence of a quorum. Who would like to move this?
Mr. Derek Lee: I so move.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Lee.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: The next is on the time limits for witnesses' statements and questioning.
Mr. Derek Lee: I so move.
The Chair: It will be ten, seven, and three.
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, CPC): What's ten, seven and three?
The Chair: It means ten minutes for the witness, seven minutes for the first questioner, and three minutes for other questioners.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Now we are on to the payment of witnesses' travel and living expenses.
Mr. Derek Lee: I so move.
The Chair: Everybody seems to be accommodating this morning.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: We have a motion on the distribution of documents with translation.
Mr. Derek Lee: I so move.
The Chair: Mr. Lee moves.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: The next is on working meals.
Mr. Derek Lee: That is so moved.
The Chair: Mr. Lee so moves.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: We have a motion here that deals with staff attending in camera meetings, so in other words, no one, other than the members of the committee, can attend in camera meetings unless authorized by the subcommittee.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: On in camera meetings' transcripts, one copy of the transcripts--
Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): I so move.
The Chair: Mr. Easter has so moved.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Next is a motion on private members' business bills. They are to be placed on the agenda and their sponsors are to be invited to appear before the committee. This is pursuant to the rules.
Hon. Wayne Easter: I so move.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Easter.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Our next motion is the 48-hour substantive motion rule, the notice of substantive motions.
Mr. Vic Toews: I so move.
The Chair: Moved by Mr. Loubier--or was it Mr. Toews?
Mr. Vic Toews: Did a member of the opposition move it? What a day! Oh, oh!
The Chair: Mr. Toews has so moved.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Are there any other motions or any other matters?
Mr. Lee has new business.
Mr. Derek Lee: I want to put on the record that this subcommittee is carrying on work that began about 14 years ago when the CSIS Act was reviewed. At the time, the government did not want any committee looking at national security issues.
Members of the House, represented by a number of members—I'll just mention some of their names: Blaine Thacker from Alberta; Bob Horner from Ontario; Wilton Littlechild from Alberta; Ken Atkinson; Derek Blackburn of the NDP—decided there must be a committee. It was in the report on the five-year review that there should be a committee, and the best way to do it was to set up a subcommittee.
The work of the subcommittee has essentially carried on in that mould for more than a dozen years. The focus of the subcommittee was on spending efficacy and management efficacy in security intelligence-gathering analysis and product, and the second piece was civil liberties.
The committee has done a good job of that. As this committee carries on in that tradition, we're not sure whether it has the support of the government ever, but it's certainly a parliamentary exercise, and the work of the members now will continue it.
I want to suggest that, because of the likely imminence of a general election and a dissolution of the House, there may be just one or two opportunities for the committee to get some work done in the next little while. I want to propose that the first item of business be taken right from the mandate of the committee—that is, the estimates—and that the subcommittee call next week, at a date that would be convenient to members and the witness, Mr. Ward Elcock, the director of CSIS, which is one of the core institutions gathering intelligence.
If that were possible, then the committee could do that business next week, and do it in the face of uncertainty about what might be available for work in future weeks.
That is a suggestion. I'm prepared to move that the committee call the director of CSIS to appear on estimates next week, at a time to be arranged. I'm prepared to move it if I see a consensus around the table. If not, I'll just let it stand.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Lee.
Let me put something on record. I want to thank you for your long-time service as the chair of this subcommittee. For those who don't know the history, Mr. Lee has been here from the very beginning—at least since he was elected in 1988—and was instrumental in keeping the idea of a subcommittee alive in the face of known opposition from the bureaucracy, from some previous chairs of the justice committee, and from one or more previous solicitors general.
Derek, through just the perseverance of his will, insisted that this committee should remain, should continue, and should develop a relationship with the security intelligence establishment—and, if I may say so, a degree of trust, given that this is a partisan place—so that we could try to get to the bottom of some of these issues that would otherwise remain in a clouded fashion.
I think certainly the committee and the country, quite frankly, owe Derek a debt of gratitude for the work he's done over all these years. I thank you for that, Derek. It certainly was a pleasure for me to be involved with you in the formative years, until the justice minister and I parted company after the gun control legislation. I'm glad to be back, and so here I am.
Mr. Lee has suggested a work plan for next week that would be one meeting on the estimates with the director of CSIS. Presumably, his idea here is to show the flag, that the committee is up and running and we're interested.
Then I suppose we're going to be having a Sunday watch each Sunday for the next few Sundays to see whether an election is called. If it isn't, then I guess we'll decide on a work plan. If it is, well, then away we go.
Is there any discussion on Mr. Lee's suggestion of calling the director of CSIS on estimates some time next week? Is it agreed?
Mr. Easter.
¿ (0915)
Hon. Wayne Easter: I think it's important for the committee to do it as quickly as possible, because Ward Alcock's appointment, as you know, is up for replacement.
As a former Solicitor General, I want to say that I think the committee is a great idea. The whole issue of security is very broad and wide-ranging, and into every facet of Canadian life now, so it's important that a parliamentary committee be established that can be involved in this area.
The Chair: I'll work with the clerk and the researcher...
[Translation]
Yes, Mr. Charbonneau.
Hon. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, I'd like to mention the consultation paper on a national security committee of parliamentarians tabled by the minister in early April. The form that the consultations will take has yet to be decided. The matter could be debated in the House of Commons or in the Senate. Or, a joint Senate and House committee, a special committee or our subcommittee could hold consultations.
I wish to remind you that this is an important issue and that the government hopes parliamentarians will, one way or the other, express their views on this consultation paper. I urge you to add this item to our work agenda, depending on the time we have available, or at the very least, to go around the table to see if we wish to consult on this matter or if we would rather the question to be debated elsewhere. I'd like this issue clarified as quickly as possible.
The Chair: That's a very good suggestion.
[English]
I think we'll discuss that as a full committee as we see how our time is. Our clerk reminds me that the justice committee, in full committee, is working hard on trying to produce a report. There's only so much time, and members are busy, so we're going to try to fit in a time where we can see Mr. Alcock, and then, yes, we'll go with Mr. Charbonneau's suggestion because that is a very important committee. Really it's the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness offering to the House of Commons to investigate any number of methodologies that could be used to improve our security intelligence system in Canada. I think it's very important that we be involved in that. Certainly I'm interested in being involved in that.
Yes, Mr. Lee.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Charbonneau is very correct. I'm glad he's mentioned this. If there is not an election imminent, this subcommittee should sink its teeth into the document made public by the minister.
I also wanted to mention as well, as most members will know, that the same minister has referred to the main committee, the justice committee, the issue of section 4 of the Security of Information Act. This is an issue that this subcommittee might well sink its teeth into too if there is time, because the main committee, at this point, has not had the ability to deal with that issue as well. So I mention the section 4 review as another item of potential future business for this subcommittee in collaboration with the main committee.
¿ (0920)
The Chair: As chair, if you felt you didn't have the time, you could get the main committee to send that issue to us as a subcommittee in any event.
Mr. Derek Lee: All right.
The Chair: So we have a general idea of what we're going to do. We'll try to do it in as cooperative a manner as possible so we can get as many people here as possible. We'll just keep an eye out, go from week to week, see what happens.
Mr. Toews.
Mr. Vic Toews: Mr. Chair, there was just one other issue. All the other business is taken care of.
Is there a vice-chair of this committee?
The Chair: There is no vice-chair of a subcommittee as far as I know.
Mr. Vic Toews: Thank you.
The Chair: Is there any other business?
I'm looking forward to being the chair. I appreciate your--
Hon. Wayne Easter: I've chaired subcommittees in which we have had vice-chairs. If you want a vice-chair then--
The Chair: Listen, I'm easy. The clerk said there's nothing preventing us from having a vice-chair. Would we like to have a vice-chair?
Hon. Wayne Easter: It's not standard, but I know on several subcommittees there is.
So, Vic, if you--
Mr. Vic Toews: It gives the chair a break, just in case he's not here, and he can go to the washroom and stuff like that. I would nominate Mr. Anders.
The Chair: If there are no problems, then it's carried.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Congratulations, Mr. Anders, as vice-chair.
Hon. Wayne Easter: We can set our own destiny, and if there is a problem, too bad.
The Chair: That's right. Good for you.
Excellent. Thank you very much. We'll see you next week.
This meeting is adjourned.