HERI Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION
Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Tuesday, February 24, 2004
| ¹ | 1535 |
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The Clerk of the Committee |
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Hon. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP) |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Gary Schellenberger (Perth—Middlesex, CPC) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, CPC) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Gary Schellenberger |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair (Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.)) |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Clerk |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC) |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Gary Schellenberger |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.) |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Wendy Lill |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Chair |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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Ms. Christiane Gagnon |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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Hon. John Harvard |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Roy Bailey |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Wendy Lill |
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The Chair |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Christiane Gagnon |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Jeannot Castonguay |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Jeannot Castonguay |
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Hon. Paul Bonwick |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage |
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EVIDENCE
Tuesday, February 24, 2004
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¹ 
(1535)
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum. You can now proceed to the election of the chair.
[Translation]
Are there any nominations for the position of chair?
[English]
Is there a nomination for the chair of the committee?
Hon. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.): Mr. Clerk, I'd like to propose Sarmite Bulte as chair.
The Clerk: Is there any other nomination?
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): I would like to nominate Clifford Lincoln as chair.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): I have decided that I won't put my name forward. I won't seek re-election. That was my decision, not to run for chair.
The Clerk: So you refuse the nomination for the election of the chair?
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: Yes.
The Clerk: There is only one nominee. Is there any other nomination?
I now declare Ms. Sarmite Bulte duly elected the chair.
We'll now proceed with the election of the vice-chair for the government.
Mr. Gary Schellenberger (Perth—Middlesex, CPC): I'd like to nominate Dr. Castonguay.
The Clerk: Is there any other nomination for the vice-chair for the government?
I declare Mr. Castonguay elected.
We'll now proceed with the election of the vice-chair for the opposition. Is there any nomination?
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: I nominate Mr. Schellenberger.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, CPC): That's exactly what I was going to do, so that's great.
The Clerk: No other nominations?
Mr. Schellenberger is elected vice-chair of the committee on Canadian heritage.
Mr. Gary Schellenberger: Thank you.
The Clerk: I would now ask the chair to please take the chair.
Congratulations.
The Chair (Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.)): Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. It's truly an honour and a privilege to be the new chair of this committee.
I am indebted to Clifford and to his long service as chair of the committee. I know I have very big shoes to fill.
On behalf of the committee, Clifford, thank you so much for the wonderful job you've done as chair of this committee.
We have in front of us some routine motions that we'd like to do. I'm at the direction of the committee. Would you like to take these motions one at a time?
Hon. John Harvard: Can we not move an omnibus motion because it's routine work?
The Chair: Yes, it is routine.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: I just wanted to ask if they are exactly the same as before.
The Clerk: For the time limit for witnesses' statements and questioning, I took exactly the same information that was there for last year.
Hon. John Harvard: I move that we accept them in one cluster motion.
The Clerk: There is one amendment for the televised meeting with the minister to say that if it's possible to have a televised room, since they are limited.... I didn't want to stop the committee from having the opportunity to meet the minister just because we are tied with the motion of it being televised.
The Chair: Is everybody agreed?
(Amendment agreed to)
The Chair Mr. Harvard moves the omnibus motion. Could I have a seconder?
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC): I so move.
The Chair: Is it agreed?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: We have two motions in front of us. One is from Ms. Lill that the Minister of Canadian Heritage be invited to appear before the committee at the earliest opportunity. I believe this has been circulated to all members.
Mr. Gary Schellenberger: I'd like to waive the motion on the 48 hours.
The Chair: There's another motion from Mr. Schellenberger. So we would have a 48-hour notice requirement, unless members are prepared to waive this requirement.
Madam Gagnon.
[Translation]
Ms. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): I'm having a hard time following because you're speaking very quickly in English. I'd like for us to slow down a bit so that I can understand exactly what we're voting on, and how things proceed. Since I didn't have the motions, I'm missing some information. Are we now voting on Ms. Lill's motion?
¹ (1540)
[English]
The Chair: At this moment, Madam Gagnon, we're asking if members are prepared to waive the 48-hour notice requirement of the motion. That is what we're looking at right now. We have a motion by Ms. Lill, and we also have a motion by Mr. Schellenberger that we've just received.
I would like to know--and again, I'm at the service of the committee--whether we are prepared to waive the 48-hour time requirement.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: Which one is Mr. Schellenberger's motion?
The Chair: I don't know. I don't even have a copy.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: It's the one there. I didn't know it was his.
Hon. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): It's the one that starts off with “That whenever the Main Estimates”?
Hon. John Harvard: That's Mr. Schellenberger's.
If I may speak to Wendy Lill's motion, I don't mind waiving the 48-hour notice, mainly because we'll get the minister when it fits her schedule. I don't think the 48-hour notice is really going to be relevant or play any role. We can submit our invitation to the minister, and I'm sure they'll work out a time when she can come. Does that make sense, Wendy?
The Chair: Ms. Lill.
Ms. Wendy Lill: That makes sense.
I just want to say that I was really disappointed with the response we got for our work, and I think it's important to make that very clear to the new minister. The whole issue of foreign ownership is a very serious issue that is now facing us.
I don't have a sense that this minister has the background she needs in some of these areas, and I think we can provide that for her. So I would say sooner rather than later. It's not just a pro forma visit we're asking for. It's to help her get some sense of what this committee has found out over the last couple of years, in terms of cultural sovereignty in broadcasting.
Quite frankly, we can ask for a better response to that report. I suggest we do that.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: I would like to back Ms. Lill. We are now facing a new circumstance with a new minister, where we have a report that has been left almost in limbo. I agree that the response, for reasons we know, was very summary. Now we have a chance to find out how far the minister has looked at our report and to promote it and push it, especially in the key area of CBC foreign investment, etc. The sooner we can have the minister here the better.
The Chair: I apologize, but before I ask Madam Gagnon, I would like to invite the researchers to sit at the table and pass the motion.
Hon. John Harvard: I assume our 48-hour notice has been waived.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: That's the first order of business.
[Translation]
Ms. Christiane Gagnon: I agree that the new heritage minister should appear before the committee. We can ask her questions. However, I would like us not to restrict ourselves to the Broadcasting Act because there are other issues that I would like to ask her about. I'm referring to the entire problem surrounding libraries and archives. I would like to see where she stands, how she sees the issue of insufficient funds, and how the department intends to successfully implement an action plan in these three areas of heritage conservation.
[English]
The Chair: It appears that we've stopped talking about the substance right now. We're still dealing with the 48-hour issue.
Do I have consensus to waive the 48 hours?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Mr. Bonwick.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: I would just suggest that we've agreed on all of it and we can move on.
The minister will respond in a very timely fashion, I'm sure. It's a new committee; it's a new minister. She's going to be very interested in hearing what we have to say. We can talk about whatever we want when we're there. Hopefully, lots of time will be made available to us.
Hon. John Harvard: The motion is not limiting. It points out three particular areas. If Madam Gagnon wants to raise anything, that's her business. Let us just invite her.
The Chair: The motion is moved by Ms. Lill. Is there a seconder? All those in favour? Opposed?
(Motion agreed to)
¹ (1545)
The Chair: Thank you.
On the second motion.... Excuse me, I'm just reading it for the first time.
In fact, I've just been advised by the clerk that there are two motions. One has to do with the minister and the main estimates and the other is the Auditor General. I understand that chapter 6 of the Auditor General's report deals with heritage issues.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: Madam Chair, it's shown here as one motion. Can you slice them off?
Hon. John Harvard: I think we should....
The Chair: Are we also waiving 48 hours' notice on these motions?
Hon. John Harvard: I'm prepared to waive the 48 hours on the first one, but not on the second one, and it has to be unanimous.
The Chair: All right. We don't have unanimous consent on that. With respect to the first one, is there unanimous consent on moving on the first motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Any discussion? Then I'll put the motion on the table.
It is moved by Mr. Schellenberger and seconded by Mr. Bailey. All in favour? Opposed?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: So we'll keep the second one for the next meeting. Thank you.
Mr. Bonwick.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: Madam Chair, just as a point of consideration for the committee on future business. Regardless of the content of a particular motion, it would be my suggestion, in the interests of a cooperative working relationship, that we simply establish a set of rules. This particular time we gave support to Ms. Lill's requirement, but in future I think we have to abide by a set of rules. If it's 48 hours' notice, it's 48 hours' notice, and the committee, quite frankly, in my opinion, should not be slicing them off one at a time to decide if we are going to allow Ms. Lill to waive her 48-hour right and then not waive Mr. Schellenberger's 48-hour right. I think that's unfair, quite frankly, to Mr. Schellenberger that we do that. We got it out of the way. We decided no at this point in time, but I would suggest, just in the interest of cooperation, that from now on we just abide by the 48-hour rule, unless there is some incredibly extenuating situation that we have to take into consideration. John was right when he said the minister is going to come, period, so it's not a big deal. And it's not a big deal. It's just that I hate to see one member get favouritism over another.
Hon. John Harvard: I think Paul makes a very good point. I was agreeable to the waiver only because I didn't think it mattered any, but I think Paul is right. If we have a 48-hour notice we should follow it. Unless there is some extreme, extenuating circumstance, then we just follow it. I accept Paul's reasoning.
The Chair: Thank you.
Any other comments? Any other business?
Mr. Bonwick.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: I just want to provide the committee with a notice of intent on my part. I'll be circulating, giving you 48 hours' notice, of my intention to ask the committee to become immediately engaged with the department on the motion that was passed last November. It instructed the department officials to bring forward or to work with us in a collaborative fashion to bring forward draft legislation respecting the ratification of the WIPO treaty. We didn't have a favourable response. In fact, quite frankly, it was the exact opposite of what we had instructed or requested. I'm just simply advising the committee that I think this is something we can deal with in the short-term basket, and deal with in a very timely fashion.
The committee was unanimous on it in the last session. Unfortunately, one minister and one department were simply not prepared to cooperate with this committee. My hope would be, with new ministers and with a commitment through the throne speech, and the Prime Minister's response to the throne speech about Parliament being engaged to address this so-called democratic deficit, that the department and the ministers would be much more receptive to the committee actually playing a part in establishing policy rather than simply reviewing it once the department is done.
So I would ask the committee to give full consideration to moving forward on the work we may have to do on the topic of WIPO in the coming days or weeks.
¹ (1550)
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bonwick.
Mr. Lincoln.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: I'd like to ask for clarification with regard to the whole copyright issue. I understand from my discussions with the clerk previously that our order from the House on the copyright review died with prorogation. I wanted to clarify whether the order is automatically renewed or whether we have to go before the House. Is there a possibility that the House may transfer it to another ministry, like Industry? I hope not. Can you tell us exactly where we stand now?
I agree 100% with what Mr. Bonwick said. But at the same time, if we don't have an order to resume the study of copyright, then we have to wait for the House before we do. We have to find out also if the House will refer it to us or to somebody else. I want to find out where exactly we stand on the issue.
The Chair: I'll refer this to the clerk.
The Clerk: We received the report from the department in November 2002. It was referred to our committee and there was discussion at that point about which committee would receive it, industry or Canadian heritage. It finally came to the Canadian heritage committee.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: It was by order of the House.
The Clerk: Yes.
What happens now? Usually after prorogation a committee starts with nothing on the schedule. It is completely blank. Now that the House has been re-opened for two or three weeks, we have received one bill: Bill S-5 on the lighthouse issue. It was referred to the committee, but everything else has to be renewed.
On the basis of the Standing Orders, a committee could start a study by itself under Standing Order 108(2). However, because this is a statutory review, it would be preferable to have an order from the House to continue that study--and also, based on the fact that it's a shared responsibility between two departments.... It's not the Canadian heritage minister who is responsible for the Copyright Act; it is the industry minister. It would be better to have a reference from the House to pursue the study of the copyright statutory review--and also for the extension, because we received an extension from the House, but it also died at prorogation.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: What is the procedure now to get an order from the House?
The Clerk: My feeling is that some discussion with the government leader could be had to see what exactly he would like to do, since there is a political aspect to this. It is not only a procedural aspect because there are two departments involved. There should be further discussion, and I would be glad to share that with the chair before the next meeting so we can find a solution.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: I would like to suggest that the chair take it up with the leader and the ministers involved, because if we are going to do a review, it seems to me we should really get an order from the House almost immediately so that at least the researchers know how to prepare for it and they don't come here for nothing. I think it should be done right away.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Lincoln. I will do that immediately.
Mr. Bailey, you had a point.
Mr. Roy Bailey: Madam Chair, I'm not a regular member of the committee, but I have a suggestion. You have a new minister. No doubt you will be meeting again before the minister arrives. I suggest that in order to give some confidence to the new minister you should limit your topics and send them to her in advance so you can have your discussion when she's prepared to answer your questions. If you have a new minister come in and you're going to go all over the map with her, I think that's very unfair.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bailey.
Mr. Lincoln, I will definitely speak to the House leader immediately. It is imperative that we move on it. It was definitely this committee's desire to have that copyright legislation before us. And while we have technically started from scratch, we have certainly had our researchers here and we have the work...it would not be acceptable for the industry committee to see it. I will move immediately.
Are there any other questions or comments?
Ms. Lill.
Ms. Wendy Lill: When are we meeting?
¹ (1555)
The Chair: When are our meeting times?
The Clerk: The meeting times are Tuesdays and Thursdays, 3:30 p.m. until 5:30 p.m.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: Very nice. They really want to see us.
The Clerk: That's the agreement between the whips from...probably a year ago. There was a change among all the committees.
The Chair: Madam Gagnon.
[Translation]
Ms. Christiane Gagnon: It would be difficult for me to sit until 5:30 on Thursdays because flights leave at five o'clock. I'm here from Monday to Thursday and it would be almost impossible to change my schedule. I only sit from Monday to Thursday and I would have to leave by car or by taxi. It's complicated to find an available seat on Air Canada after five o'clock. I'm not very optimistic about this.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Bonwick.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: Madam Chair, you can explore other options, but I would simply remind the committee that all the whips agreed, and I believe there are three baskets of meeting times that are available. We, fortunately, in the last session had likely the very best one. Being 9 to 11 a.m., mostly, we got to leave at 11 a.m. We shouldn't forget that we all had colleagues in the last session who were meeting from 3:30 to 5:30 p.m. on other committees.
It was my understanding when they presented that to us some months ago that they were going to rotate these baskets so that we all had to do our unfortunate Thursday afternoons.
If there is any way the chair can search out something other than a Thursday afternoon, I would encourage her to do so, but in the same breath, when we did the 9 o'clock on Thursday mornings last year, some poor group was doing Thursday afternoons from 3:30 to 5.30 p.m. I think it's just our turn.
The Chair: I will definitely explore the possibility of changing that Thursday, because I know what will happen: we will never be able to get quorum. Again, if we are going to go ahead with the copyright study, we want to have the people who are up to speed on the issue there.
The clerk has told me that it won't be a priority, but let me see what we can do. We'll definitely try to change that time, and I agree with Madam Gagnon that it will be virtually impossible to have anybody here on a Thursday afternoon after question period.
Mr. Castonguay.
[Translation]
Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.): Madam Chair, as a new member of this committee, I assume that we're going to have to study the copyright issue. Members of the committee who were here before are on familiar ground. Can the new members of the committee receive the documents so that we can bring ourselves up to speed and up to the same level as other members of the committee?
[English]
The Chair: Absolutely, Mr. Castonguay. We will get some material to you.
Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: I don't know if I'm the only new member here, but it seems that it's a thick file.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: Just as a suggestion, Madam Chair, perhaps you could instruct Joe to meet with Monsieur Castonguay, to spend some time with him bringing him up to speed. I'd be happy to tell him everything he needs to know about it, but mine might be slanted. I suspect Joe might provide a little more balanced perspective on it.
The Chair: Jeannot.
Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: I might get the other side, beyond biased.
Hon. Paul Bonwick: Likely more balanced than mine.
The Chair: If there are no other questions or comments, the meeting is adjourned. Thank you very much.