FAIT Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, February 17, 2004

¹

1530

The Clerk of the Committee

The Hon. Dan McTeague (Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, Lib.)

The Hon. Diane Marleau (Sudbury, Lib.)

The Clerk

The Clerk

Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, CPC)

The Clerk

Hon. Diane Marleau

The Clerk

Mr. Stockwell Day (Okanagan—Coquihalla, CPC)

The Clerk

Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.)

The Clerk

The Clerk

The Clerk

The Chair (Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.))

Mr. Stockwell Day

The Chair

Hon. Dan McTeague

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ)

The Chair

The Hon. Diane Marleau

The Hon. Dan McTeague

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

Mr. Georges Etoka (Committee Clerk, House of Commons)

The Chair

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, CPC)

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP)

The Chair

Ms. Alexa McDonough

The Chair

Mr. Deepak Obhrai

The Chair

Mr. Deepak Obhrai

The Chair

Mr. Stockwell Day

The Chair

Mr. Gerald Schmitz (Committee Researcher)

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

The Clerk

The Chair

Ms. Alexa McDonough

The Chair

Ms. Alexa McDonough

The Chair

Ms. Alexa McDonough

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Gerald Schmitz

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade

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NUMBER 001

l

3rd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Tuesday, February 17, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1530)  

[Translation]

    The Clerk of the Committee: Members, I see that we have quorum. Pursuant to Standing Order 106, the first item on the agenda today is the election of a chair. I am ready to receive nominations for that position.

    Mr. McTeague, go ahead.

    The Hon. Dan McTeague (Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, Lib.): I move that Bernard Patry be chairman.

    The Hon. Diane Marleau (Sudbury, Lib.): I second the motion.

    The Clerk: Moved by Mr. McTeague, seconded by Ms. Marleau, that Mr. Patry be elected as chair of the committee. Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt this motion?

    (Motion agreed to)

[English]

    The Clerk: The next thing is the election of vice-chairs. There is one vice-chair from the government side and one from the opposition. I'm open to nominations.

    Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, CPC): I'd like to nominate Stockwell Day.

    The Clerk: It is moved by Mr. Casey that Mr. Day be elected vice-chair for the opposition.

    Hon. Diane Marleau: I second the motion.

    The Clerk: Thank you.

    Now the vice-chair for the government side.

    Mr. Day.

    Mr. Stockwell Day (Okanagan—Coquihalla, CPC): I nominate Ms. Marleau.

    The Clerk: That is one nomination. Are there any others?

    Ms. Redman.

    Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): I nominate Bryon Wilfert.

    The Clerk: Are there any other nominations?

    We'll proceed to an election by secret ballot, according to Standing Order 106(2).

¹  1532  

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¹  1536  

    The Clerk: No one having been elected, we will now proceed to a second ballot.

¹  1536  

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¹  1539  

    The Clerk: I declare Madam Marleau as vice-chair, government side, of the committee.

[Translation]

    I invite the chair to take his place.

    The Chair (Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.)): Thank you very much.

[English]

    Thank you very much for the vote of confidence. I think we have a lot of work to do.

    With your permission, we are going to go through the procedural motions. You have all received them before we started the meeting. I am going to go with the motions as they were established in the beginning.

[Translation]

    We are going to discuss the procedural motions.

[English]

    The first one is a motion establishing a subcommittee on agenda and procedure.

    Mr. Day.

    Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Chairman, is there a mechanism whereby we could move all of these motions at once, if people agree?

    The Chair: Yes, if we have unanimous consent. You've read it before; I fully agree.

    I'm going to read them. They include motions on establishing a subcommittee on agenda and procedure; services of analysts from the Library of Parliament; receiving and publishing evidence in the absence of a quorum; time limits for witnesses' statements and questioning; payment of witnesses' travel and living expenses; distribution of documents with translation; purchasing documents; working meals; staff attendance at in camera meetings; in camera meeting transcripts; gifts for foreign delegations; establishing a subcommittee on human rights and international development; establishing a subcommittee on international trade, trade disputes, and investment; and notice of substantive motions.

    Do we have unanimous consent to accept all of these motions together?

    (Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

    Hon. Dan McTeague: I ask the indulgence of the chair, as I have not been on this committee before for any length, but I have noticed in some of the other committees I've dealt with that there has been a distinction, under notice of substantive motions, between 24 hours and 48 hours. I take it that the committee is operating under the assumption of 24 hours, but I wonder if the committee might also want to consider the prospect of 48 hours, given that we will be dealing with a lot in a very short period of time. Other committees do it as well. It has not caused any difficulty in the past, but it's entirely up to the committee. I put that forth to be considered here now.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Mr. Bergeron, you can begin the discussion of Mr. McTeague's motion.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): I'd like to comment on the point Mr. McTeague just made. Mr. McTeague is new to our committee, and I just want to bring it to his attention that the 24-hour rule has always worked well for the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I want him to know, because he doesn't seem to know, that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade is probably one of the least partisan committees here on Parliament Hill, so there is no reason to have any reservations about the 24-hour notice, which has always worked well for this committee. I therefore move that we maintain, as has been the practice of this committee, the 24-hour rule, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair: Ms. Marleau, go ahead.

    The Hon. Diane Marleau: You are right, people have always worked well together.

[English]

    We have always worked extremely well together, so I don't see any real problem with continuing.

[Translation]

    The Hon. Dan McTeague: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't questioning that. I just wanted to clarify things. I know that there is no standard rule and that each committee may proceed as it sees fit. I prefer and I accept that that is the way things are done.

    The Chair: Mr. Bergeron, go ahead.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a quick question to clear something up in my mind about the motion to establish a Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Unless I am mistaken, during the previous session, there weren't so many members on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Am I wrong?

    The Chair: The number hasn't changed. The only difference is that one opposition party is no longer there, and you know why, of course. Currently, there are the chair and the two vice-chairs, so one Liberal, one Liberal vice-chair and one vice-chair from the official opposition, the parliamentary secretary, a representative of the Conservative Party, a representative of the NDP and...

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Was that the former composition?

    The Chair: Yes, that was the former composition, I believe. I think so.

    But you also have to understand that all of the decisions taken at the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure must be subsequently ratified by the entire committee and that there has never actually been any voting as such on the subcommittee.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: I know how it works. I just wanted reassurance, because I had the feeling—and perhaps I'm mistaken—that there weren't so many people on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. You seem to be telling me that the composition is precisely the same; at least, you said “I think so”.

    The Chair: The clerk tells me that we used to have a member of the Canadian Alliance and a member of the Progressive Conservative Party, but now, we have two members from the new Conservative Party, Mr. Stockwell Day as vice-chair and another member of the new Conservative Party. So the two parties have been put together. All right?

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: And there were in fact two additional representatives of the Liberal Party?

    The Chair: Yes.

[English]

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: We have a couple of business things to do. In a minute we will distribute a document.

    We have received a note from Christine Fisher, who is the parliamentary exchanges officer. Mr. Micunovic, who is the President of the Parliament of Serbia and Montenegro, will be here with a delegation in Ottawa next Monday and Tuesday. The Speaker has asked us if it will be possible to meet with these people.

    If you agree, we could pass a motion that the chair will look at this. If it's not a regular meeting, we could have a working lunch with this delegation. Is it agreed?

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Will that be on Monday?

    The Chair: They're going to be here on Monday and Tuesday. I have asked Ms. Fisher to find out what their schedule is. It's quite important. If they have lunch already scheduled with the Speaker, we cannot have lunch with them. But we will try to arrange something that will suit them, if we all agree with this.

    Some hon. members: Agreed.

    The Chair: So it's agreed that we will have lunch. Good.

    We have another motion concerning relations with countries of the Muslim world. I will read it to you. We will receive it. It is:

That the Committee resume its study of Canada's relations with countries of the Muslim world, begun in the second session of the 37th Parliament, pursuant to the Order of February 6, 2003.

That the evidence, briefs and documents received during the Ottawa proceedings and information received during travel by the Committee in relation to its study of relations with countries of the Muslim world during the second session of the 37th Parliament be deemed adduced by the Committee in the current session.

    That is just to be sure that what we receive in the beginning...we're just going to keep going with this.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: We don't have this one.

[Translation]

    Mr. Georges Etoka (Committee Clerk, House of Commons): It is being distributed now.

    The Chair: We are going to distribute them one by one.

    It reads as follows:

That the committee resume its study of Canada's relations with countries of the Muslim world, begun in the 2nd Session of the 37thParliament, pursuant to the order of February 6, 2003.

That the evidence, briefs and documents received during the Ottawa proceedings and information received during travel by the committee in relation to its study of relations with countries of the Muslim world during the 2ndSession of the 37thParliament be deemed adduced by the committee in the current session.

    (Motion agreed to)

[English]

    The Chair: For your information, the clerk just gave you some subject-matter motions of the committee's second session. Those motions were passed before. I just want to know if you want to reintroduce them. They are:

That, during the annual appearance of the Ambassador for disarmament, pursuant to Recommendation 2 of the Committee's December 1998 Report, Canada and the Nuclear Challenge: Reducing the Political Value of Nuclear Weapons for the Twenty-First Century, representatives of the Canadian Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons be also invited to appear;

That the invitation of December 11, 2002 from the Auditor General for the Committee to consider Chapter 3 of the December 2002 Report, Special Import Measures Act: Protecting against Dumped or Subsidized Imports be referred to the Subcommittee on International Trade, Trade Disputes and Investments;

That the Committee hold hearings as required to consider the North Korea question.

    As adopted on May 27, 2003:

That the Committee study the issue of Missile Defence and hold meetings with witnesses prior to the June adjournment.

    As adopted on September 18, 2003:

That the Committee consider the case of Mr. Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen presently detained in Syria, and cases such as the death of Ms. Zahra Kazemi while in custody in Iran and that of Mr. William Sampson, recently released by the Saudi Arabian authorities, and that the Minister of Foreign Affairs and other responsible Ministers, if necessary, and appropriate officials be invited to appear before the Committee;

That consideration of issues relating to the Rwanda genocide in Rwanda be referred to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development.

    As adopted on October 28, 2002:

That the request of the Falun Dafa Association of Canada to appear before the Committee be deferred to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development;

That the request of the Rassemblement canadien pour le Liban, RCPL, to appear before the Committee to present its study on human rights abuse and democracy in Lebanon be referred to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development.

    As adopted on February 6, 2003,

That the Committee undertake a study of Canada's relations with the Muslim world;

That the Committee continue to monitor the Iraq issue and that, as required by circumstances, the Chair from time to time organize hearings to which the Minister of Foreign Affairs and appropriate officials and concerned non-government organizations and individuals be invited to appear;

That in relation to the Committee report, Partners in North America: Advancing Canada's Relations with the United States and Mexico, the Committee undertake to hold trilateral meetings with members of the Foreign Affairs Committees of the United States and Mexican Congresses after the tabling of the Government Response, pursuant to Standing Order 109;

That the request from Amnesty International for the Committee to consider relations with China in view of human rights concerns be referred to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development.

[Translation]

    Those are the subject matter motions of the 2^nd Session of the 37^th Parliament. We can adopt them again.

[English]

    We are not going to have time to discuss this. Regarding the timeframe for the next six or seven weeks, our priority will be to finish our study regarding the Muslim world, if we all agree.

[Translation]

    Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Chairman, I think that the study of relations between Canada and the Muslim world could take up almost all of our time, not to mention the fact that we could get tied up with unforeseen events. So, I would restrict the committee's work to our report. Let's not lose sight of that goal, or else we won't get a report produced before the dissolution of Parliament.

    As for the two subcommittees, I would just leave it up to them to deal with the issues that concern them, and they will gauge how much time they have to deal with whatever tasks they consider to be priorities. I would hold the rest in abeyance until further notice.

    The Chair: Mr. Obhrai, you have the floor.

[English]

    Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, CPC): I want to go over another point here, not on the Muslim world. But what is the status of the subcommittees? Are we going to constitute them, and are they going to go ahead? Are they going to be moved forward?

    The Chair: It's not before the committee right now.

    The only thing I must tell you is that we will adopt a motion regarding the subcommittee, and when our whips are ready, the two subcommittees will be formed. As Mr. Bergeron just mentioned, the question to be referred to both subcommittees, the one on international trade and the one on human rights, could be adopted because they are going to go.... They will decide what they want to do, or whether they want to do something or not.

[Translation]

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order. I just want to point out that we have just—with the omnibus motion we passed earlier—established the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development and the Subcommittee on International Trade, Trade Disputes and Investment. All that remains to be done is to choose the membership of these two subcommittees, they have been formally established today.

    The Chair: Right.

[English]

    Is that fine, Mr. Obhrai?

    Ms. McDonough.

    Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I would just like to raise a question that is informational at this point.

    In relation to the first item under the subject matter of motions, it speaks of the annual appearance of the Ambassador for Disarmament, and then goes on to indicate that the representatives of the Canadian Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons be invited to appear before the committee in conjunction with the ambassador. If I'm not mistaken, although it refers to an annual appearance, I don't believe the Ambassador for Disarmament appeared at all this past year. I feel like a bit of a broken record because I keep raising it. I'm completely supportive of the recommendation that we concentrate on the continuation of the study with respect to Canada's relations with the Muslim world, but I also think it's critically important that we try to fit that meeting in with the Ambassador for Disarmament and the representatives of the coalition sooner rather than later.

    I'm not even sure whether such a meeting took place the previous year; it may have before I joined the committee, but I'm wondering if we can address that question.

    Secondly, I recognize that the issue of the Rwandan genocide is referred to the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development, but I think it's appropriate for us to indicate, as we come up to the tenth anniversary of the Rwandan genocide, that we would want to do something to put the spotlight on it and focus on what are the lessons to be learned from it, as part of the “Rwanda revisited” initiative that's being taken across the country and under the United Nations.

    The Chair: Thank you, Ms. McDonough.

    I really feel that when the subcommittee is formed by the main committee, when the people meet for the first time and name their chair, it could go along with the genocide of Rwanda. I think it has already been referred there. If you want to take it back to look at it I think it would be a great idea; I fully agree with you, but it's going to be up to the subcommittee on human rights to decide about this...if you agree.

    Fine?

    Ms. Alexa McDonough: And on the disarmament ambassador?

    The Chair: On disarmament, there are not that many days left. We in the full committee are not going to be able to meet before next week.

    For the new members, what I intend to do is to proceed, and we are going to distribute—

    Mr. Deepak Obhrai: I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

    How do we know it's only six weeks? The election may be delayed.

    The Chair: Mr. Obhrai, I was just talking about the Easter break.

    Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Okay.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    The Chair: Now, I will ask the clerk and the research staff to distribute to all the new members the notes they are going to need to read before we go ahead. I think they are quite important. And I must say that a substantial draft of the report on relations with Muslim countries should be ready for distribution to the members as early as next week. I just wanted you to know about this. If you all agree to this, we are going to distribute the notes. I think it's important to do so.

    Now, regarding anything else, we received a letter from Rights and Democracy concerning an appearance in front of the committee in regard to Canada's relations with the Muslim world. We'll see if we can fit them in, to maybe get one round table in between...just a last round table.

    A voice: And the five-year review with them.

    The Chair: Yes, and the five-year review with them.

    It might be possible to spend an hour or two with them.

    Mr. Stockwell Day: Who is that with, Mr. Chair?

    The Chair: That is with Rights andDemocracy. It's located in Montreal. It's one of the largest NGOs in Canada.

    Mr. Gerald Schmitz (Committee Researcher): Mr. Chair, there is a statutory requirement to have a review every five years because it was created by Parliament and it is funded out of....

[Translation]

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Chairman, did we agree to refer to the two subcommittees all matters that concern them?

    The Chair: Yes.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Thank you.

[English]

    The Chair: In the letter from Mr. Lloyd Lipsett of Rights and Democracy there are two points. Point one is a five-year review of Rights and Democracy. It's an obligation of the House of Commons by law. The second one concerns relations with the Muslim world. I don't think we will be able to do both, but if it is possible, I think we need to do them separately.

    The Clerk: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the five-year review, of course that would be referred to us by the House. It's not something we would initiate on our own, although I see that they are interested in coming.

    The Chair: That means that the second point is in order right now, whether it is possible to have them appear before the committee.

    The last one is a letter we received from the Canadian Committee for Democracy in Iran. They would like to appear before the committee. If it's possible, we will do so, and if it's not possible, we're not going to do so.

    Ms. McDonough.

    Ms. Alexa McDonough: I have a point of order. Are we at this point proposing that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure take up all of these matters and come back with a recommendation to the full committee?

    The Chair: No. Right now we have a quorum for the full committee, and we will decide right now. If we wait until next week to get a subcommittee set up and after that hold another meeting, we're not going to go anywhere. That's the reason.

    Ms. Alexa McDonough: I just want to make sure that the issue of the Ambassador for Disarmament and the Canadian Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons will be back on the table.

    The Chair: Sure. I will ask the committee whether it adopts that motion. We'll see whether or not it's feasible. But it is back. If there is a possibility, we're going to look at this.

    Ms. Alexa McDonough: Who's “we”? The whole committee?

    The Chair: The committee.

    It all depends. We didn't meet with these people.

    We're going to look at how many days we can meet before the Easter break. We are meeting on Tuesday afternoons and Thursday afternoons. That's our slot. We might try to get some time on Wednesdays. The first and the third weeks of March are breaks. That means we will be left with one week in February and three weeks in March before the Easter break. That makes four weeks altogether.

    I agree with what you've mentioned. We could put it in the minutes today just to be sure it's there, but I cannot promise you it will be done.

[Translation]

    Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): We could postpone... [Editor's Note: Inaudible].

    The Chair: Ah, good! Mr. Bergeron.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: On the point you just raised, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Canadian Committee for Democracy in Iran, I don't think it would be helpful or even appropriate to hear these people at a meeting dealing specifically with their claims; perhaps we could hear them in conjunction with our study on Muslim countries. That way, we could give them the opportunity to be heard on...

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Schmitz.

    Mr. Gerald Schmitz: As I'm sure many people are aware, there will be a very critical election in Iran on Friday. Most of the members of Parliament that the members who were in Teheran met with have been disqualified—not all of them—and have been at times quoted in some of the news reports. There is substantial commentary. There is a section on Iran in the draft report and so on, and there will be suggestions for a statement or recommendations by the committee relating to the current political crisis in Iran.

    The Chair: Fine.

    Are there any other issues?

[Translation]

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Chairman, if you don't mind, my colleague from Mercier, Ms. Lalonde, is unfortunately not feeling well and couldn't be here. She asked me to submit two notices of motion, which I will read right now. We can debate them later.

    Here is the first motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the Committee study, in light of the recall of the Ambassador to Denmark, the conditions that would have permitted members of Parliament, during the review of his nomination, to avoid for him the shame of being recalled and the tarnishing of the image of Canada's diplomats.

    I submit that to you.

    The other motion from my colleague from Mercier reads as follows:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee examine the crisis in Haiti and request the permission of the House to set up a mission to that country in order to evaluate the situation and to advise the government on its future decisions concerning the political process, the violation of human rights, the risk of escalation of the situation and what Canada could provide.

    The Chair: Are you volunteering to go to Haiti?

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Personally? Yes.

    The Chair: You have tabled them. Please give them to the clerk.

    Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Here they are.

[English]

    The Chair: Are there any other issues?

[Translation]

    Everything has been done. Thank you very much, once again, for your confidence in me.

    The meeting is adjourned.