SCYR Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Children and Youth at Risk of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, April 30, 2003

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1525

The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.))

Hon. Landon Pearson (Advisor on Children's Rights to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Senate)

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

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1530

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1535

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1540

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1545

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance)

Hon. Landon Pearson

Ms. Andrea Khan (Policy Analyst and Researcher, Office of the Honourable Landon Pearson, Senate)

Hon. Landon Pearson

Mr. Larry Spencer

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1550

Hon. Landon Pearson

Mr. Larry Spencer

Hon. Landon Pearson

Mr. Larry Spencer

Hon. Landon Pearson

Mr. Larry Spencer

Hon. Landon Pearson

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1555

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer

The Chair

Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP)

Hon. Landon Pearson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Hon. Landon Pearson

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1600

Ms. Wendy Lill

Hon. Landon Pearson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

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The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Hon. Landon Pearson

The Chair

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski (Director, Marymound North)

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1615

The Chair

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome (Co-facilitator, Young Parent Program, Rainbow Youth Centre)

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Ms. Kim Wolbaum (Coordinator, Young Parent Program, Rainbow Youth Centre)

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The Chair

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Mr. Larry Spencer

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Mr. Larry Spencer

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Ms. Kim Wolbaum

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Ms. Kim Wolbaum

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1640

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Kim Wolbaum

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

Mr. Larry Spencer

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

The Chair

Mr. Sébastien Gagnon (Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, BQ)

The Chair

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Ms. Kim Wolbaum

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1645

The Chair

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

The Acting Chair (Mr. Sébastien Gagnon)

The Chair

Ms. Wendy Lill

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

Ms. Wendy Lill

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1650

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

Ms. Wendy Lill

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

The Chair

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1655

Ms. Kim Wolbaum

The Chair

Ms. Kim Wolbaum

The Chair

Ms. Kim Wolbaum

The Chair

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

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1700

The Chair

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

The Chair

Ms. Kelly Ostrowski

Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome

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1705

The Chair

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CANADA

Subcommittee on Children and Youth at Risk of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

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NUMBER 013

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, April 30, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.)): Let me bring us to order here. We're doing a doubleheader today, but the subjects relate very nicely. We are going to be returning to our study on urban aboriginal children from ages zero to six after Senator Pearson's presentation. These will be the last witnesses before we come back next week to look at drafting instructions.

[Translation]

    Mr. Gagnon, welcome.

[English]

    I think it's very appropriate that we should start our meeting with Senator Landon Pearson, who is a friend and colleague, but that's not the only reason she's here.

    Landon Pearson has had a lifetime of advocacy work for children. We met first in her previous professional capacity, when I was involved in the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research. She was working on children's issues and has been for many years--and international children's issues.

    The context of today's meeting is Senator Pearson's work as a special representative of the Prime Minister and the foreign minister on children's issues, a mandate she's held I think since Mr. Axworthy, and that's a few foreign ministers ago.

    As part of that I'm going to let her explain what brings us together, the UN process, and the UN summit. But I just want to put on the record how much Canada is in her debt. I don't know what we would do if Landon Pearson weren't there representing kids. She has a wonderful newsletter that I recommend to you. Is it called Children on the Hill?

    Hon. Landon Pearson (Advisor on Children's Rights to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Senate): It's called Children & the Hill. The child care centre is called Children on the Hill.

    The Chair: That's why I got confused.

    It is a wonderful summary of legislation and developments.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: It's on my website: www.sen.parl.gc.ca/lpearson.

    The Chair: Okay. We welcome L. Pearson.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: Thank you, J. Godfrey, and thank you for the opportunity.

    John and I agreed it would be useful for me to come to the committee to present to you about the National Plan of Action and the process, the National Plan of Action for Children. It's very important and is an opportunity for me to actually solicit your assistance. The National Plan of Action is also an important avenue for the work you do here, so there's a double reason for my being here. 

    Two of the members of the committee, John and Mr. Spencer, were at the special session on children...

    The Chair: Indeed, Karen Kraft Sloan would have been there if she could.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: So it's part of an ongoing process.

    I thought I'd just give you some background on the National Plan of Action for Children. Last May, at the United Nations General Assembly Special Session on Children, the leaders of the world's governments committed themselves to creating a better world for children.

    These commitments are described in full in the outcome document from the UN Special Session on Children, which is called A World Fit for Children. This is a document that I'm making available to all of you in both languages. It's a very nicely put together document because it contains not only A World Fit for Children , which was a negotiated document from the Special Session on Children, but also “A World Fit for Us”, the children's statement to the special session, which they wrote themselves.

    It contains the millennium development goals that we all should be aware of, because Canada committed to them in 2000 along with all the other countries. It contains the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the two optional protocols. One is on war-affected children and the other is on child prostitution and the sale of children. So it is quite a useful little booklet.

    To help them fulfil their promises, that is, promises we all made having signed.... I don't think Mr. Spencer, John, nor I were present at two o'clock in the morning when it was finally adopted. There are other moments when you stay late, but it was finally adopted by the General Assembly in the context of a special session, and was therefore adopted unanimously by all the nations who are members of the United Nations. Canada takes its commitments seriously. Unfortunately, not all countries do the same.

    We agreed to prepare:

national...action plans with a set of specific time-bound measurable goals and targets...taking into account the best interest of the child...and in conformity with all human rights and fundamental freedoms.

    That's in paragraph 59 of A World Fit for Children.

    Following that, the Prime Minister of Canada asked the Honourable Anne McLellan, Minister of Health, and the Honourable James Stewart, Minister of Human Resources and Development, to accept joint responsibility for developing Canada's National Plan of Action. The Prime Minister then asked me to act as his personal representative to lead this process.

    Over the last few weeks I've been holding a number of dialogues on children's issues, and there are more to come in different parts of Canada.

    A team of government officials, some of whom are here today; non-governmental representatives; and especially young people--we are thrilled with the young people--are continuing to develop Canada's National Plan of Action, based on what people are saying, writing, and demonstrating.

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    By the end of December 2003, our National Plan of Action will be submitted to the United Nations, and we will be held accountable on a regular basis in sort of four- to five-year blocks subsequent to that.

    It's important to recognize that the plan of action is supposed to take into account what we've already done and look forward to ten years on the goals. The goals that are in A World Fit for Children are also forward-looking, so it is in conformity with that.

    In order to develop our National Plan of Action so it will make a real difference for children, it's essential that we work with as many interested Canadians as possible. We need to hear from various levels of government, legislators, non-governmental organizations, parents, concerned individuals, and most importantly, from boys and girls and adolescents.

    The question is, what should a world and a Canada fit for boys and girls under the age of 18 look like? This describes it in generic terms, and we're trying to transform it into a Canadian vision.

    Guided by the Convention on the Rights of the Child, our National Plan of Action will build on the solid foundation that already embodies our commitment to children. I've been around for quite a long time and I'm glad to say that I think we're doing a lot better than we did 20 years ago. We're not doing ideally, but boy, we're doing a lot better than we were 20 years ago. So we have a foundation.

    It will also address emerging issues and look forward to the future. Canadians of all ages now have the opportunity to work together to protect and promote children's rights, while discussing and building Canada's vision for children for the coming decade.

    An important message at the special session was that children must be a meaningful part of the process of developing national plans of action. Governments were urged to involve children in planning, implementing, and monitoring them. So far, young people have been working closely with our process--I can describe that a bit later if anybody wants to know--to make sure their voices are heard. Their participation at every stage of this process is essential. It keeps the process honest when they actually have an opportunity to take part.

    So many Canadians of all ages have already let us know what they believe needs to be done and how it should be done. In December last year, I wrote a letter to the general community that's interested in children and children's issues asking for input. The response has been both extensive and singularly thoughtful. I've been very encouraged by the quality of the response we've had from across the country from all kinds of people.

    This preliminary feedback has informed the development of further questions for discussion. In developing the plan to prepare the National Plan of Action, we've tried to have an interim process where we're getting information, building with it, sending it back out into the community, getting it back, and so on. So far this has been working really quite well.

    Among the priorities that have already been identified, which will not be a surprise to any of you, are quality of education, of course; improved health care; eradication of poverty, which of course ranks extremely high; aboriginal children, naturally, which is what you're studying yourselves; children with disabilities, naturally, which is also one of the issues you've been looking at; early childhood care and development; children's participation; child protection issues; and a clean environment. These all rank high among identified problems.

    It's encouraging to find consistency in the views that have come forward, in the sense that if we develop a plan that responds to them, I think we'll have people who are prepared to work together with us on these issues.

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    Our National Plan of Action is currently focusing on four themes. They're based partly on what Canadians have been saying, and also on our domestic and international commitments to children.

    Specifically on the National Children's Agenda, you may remember its development was terminated in 1999, I think. Its framework calls for children to be: physically and emotionally healthy, successful at learning, safe and secure, socially engaged, and responsible. That's what it represents. It's been accepted by the provinces and territories, so it's a working framework.

    The other agenda that is driving the way we've put it together is what's in A World Fit For Children, which is quite specific. Overall, the principles that drive it include the best interests of the child, non-discrimination, participation, survival, and development. These provide the framework for our actions concerning children, including adolescents.

    We've had quite a lot of discussion about the term “children”. It's generic but there are many people, particularly young people themselves, who say, “I'm 17 and I don't consider myself a child. I'm a boy.” or “I'm a girl.” So we like to think that “children” means all human beings under the age of 18, as defined by the Convention on the Rights of the Child. But it really means boys, girls, and adolescents. Adolescents don't always like to be called adolescents either, but they feel more comfortable not being called children. You know what I mean. They have different issues, and they have to be addressed as well.

    The first of the four themes of our National Plan of Action is promoting healthy lives, including combating HIV/AIDS. In A World Fit For Children HIV/AIDS is a separate theme, but the young people who told us what they were interested in said if you were going to look at the issues around AIDS and you were going to look at the issues in Canada, they wanted to include in that a strong emphasis on reproductive health and issues around sexuality. That's the first theme.

    The second theme is providing quality education. The third theme is protecting against abuse, exploitation, violence, and neglect. The fourth theme is enabling social engagement and collaboration. That's really the theme of inclusion, partnership, developing resources, and so on.

    The document we create is to be a response to A World Fit For Children that will have some kind of consistency with the responses of other countries. We're trying to follow a fairly generic framework pattern, so when evaluations are done on how far the country has come in the ten years since the world summit, there'll be a capacity to do that by having categories that mesh among the many reports that are developed by different countries.

    Our NPA should include specific time-bound and measurable goals that are arrived at through a process that is child-centred, multi-sectoral, collaborative, and focused on the long term. Our commitment to children and the protection and promotion of their rights needs to be regularly reviewed and reported on. This is monitoring that can be done at many levels, via government and non-governmental organizations alike.

    We are setting up the dialogue process, which I hope you will engage in as well before we actually get into the writing phase, which will be toward the end of June. The goals of this process are: to set priorities and determine emerging issues and opportunities for action; to identify institutional mechanisms for the promotion of the rights of the child, including greater public awareness of the Convention on the Rights of the Child; to identify mechanisms for monitoring progress and reassessing priorities; to identify ways of mobilizing new and additional resources to ensure that the rights of each and every child in Canada and abroad are promoted and respected; to establish a model for future involvement in policy development processes for children that is child-centred, multi-sectoral, forward-looking, and collaborative.

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    As I've said, the process is already well underway but haven't yet heard from many parliamentarians or legislators, although I've been in communication with the provinces and territories. I have written to the premiers and I've had very positive responses. They've designated names of people we can connect with there. So I think it's seen as a common task. As you may remember, John and Larry, there were representatives from four provinces at the special session itself. So there is an interest from the provinces in this process as well.

    The fact that I haven't heard from many legislators is partly why I'm here in front of you today. I wanted to inform you about the process that's currently underway, but more importantly, I really wanted to seek your contributions, both as a committee, maybe, and as individuals.

    I can give you more specific details, but that's the general outline of where we're going. We envisage a document that fits with this. It would be same size, but of course it would be red and white. I don't think we'd necessarily call it “A Canada Fit for Children”, but that's the sense. It would contain the document and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. It would be a parallel volume to this that people could refer to constantly over the next few years to see how were we moving on this particular issue, and so on.

    I'm sure you're probably interested in some of the issues that have already been identified, and particularly the emerging issues. But I'll leave that to your questions.

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    The Chair: Just on a technical note, in terms of what the committee might do to contribute to the process, I don't know how we would incorporate the work we have already done or will be completing by June.

    In other words, if you have a specific interest in aboriginal children, as you've mentioned, this committee produced a report about on-reserve kids from ages zero to six last June, which the government responded to in the fall. Do we take it that you know about it and we don't have to do it in a formal sense?

    Hon. Landon Pearson: You don't have to do that in a formal way. I'm really seeking your agreement that we can adopt the recommendations and goals you've set out in that.

    I think if we go back even further, didn't you do a report on children at risk?

    The Chair: We did, and I think we might want to just check our own records for reports we've done in the past. Some have addressed early childhood issues, and some have come to pass. We recommended extended parental leave and maternal benefits, and so on.

    If you wouldn't mind, Julie, please make sure we go over the record and send things to Senator Pearson's office, where appropriate. I'm sure we haven't changed our minds.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: Andrea Khan is the person in my office who's helping with the writing, and so on.

    The Chair: Right. So we'll do that, with the permission of the committee--I assume we haven't changed our minds. We will also give you our report hot off the press in June, if it's not too late.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: It won't be too late because we'll be collecting material until the end of June.

    The Chair: That report--it's like writing the trailer for Ms. Ostrowski's movie--will be focusing on urban aboriginal children from ages zero to 12. There are interesting dimensions there.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: As you know, the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, of which I'm a member, is doing a study on urban aboriginal youth. We're not looking at your age group; we're looking at the older age group. So between the two committees, I think we will have exposed many of the issues and some of the solutions.

    The Chair: We're hoping to connect with that committee. In fact, we tried to arrange--without success, unfortunately--a joint meeting so we could share notes. However, we will keep doing that.

    Mr. Spencer, you had a preview last night in New York. Do you have any questions or comments for Senator Pearson?

    Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance): I don't have that many questions. It appears that you're taking quite an organized and detailed approach, and that's good.

    Is this going to be presented at the end of this year to a session at the UN? Is that the idea?

    Hon. Landon Pearson: That's the idea. Technically, it probably goes to the Secretary-General as part of the collection. Andrea knows the exact route. It may go through UNICEF.

    Ms. Andrea Khan (Policy Analyst and Researcher, Office of the Honourable Landon Pearson, Senate): I think it goes through UNICEF.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: UNICEF has been given the responsibility for monitoring the follow-up to the special session. So the report will probably go to UNICEF.

    From our point of view here in Canada, it will hopefully become a government policy document. That has its own process of cabinet attention, and all that kind of thing. We haven't got there yet.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Are there any concerns, and is there any way you have attempted to address these concerns or we could address these concerns, over the new Divorce Act legislation that talks about the best interests of the child, as we do here and as the UN document does? That Divorce Act legislation really doesn't address the rights of anybody--neither the parents nor the child. It simply refers to the best interests of the child.

    Is there any concern over that document lining up with some of these goals?

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    Hon. Landon Pearson: I think the use of the term “best interests” covers that to some extent. But have you even started on the Divorce Act? Is it in committee?

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Well, it's been thrown at us. I'm not sure. They throw stuff at us, it goes by, and we don't know where it goes. It's kind of like a boomerang; sooner or later it comes back.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: That's right.

    I'd be interesting in sharing with you--because I know you'd be interested, Mr. Spencer--the child rights resolution that has just passed through the UN Commission on Human Rights. It now has a very new and very strong statement on the family.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Is that in anything we have here?

    Hon. Landon Pearson: No. We just got hold of it, but we can give you the reference. It's dated April 22, so it's very new. This is the resolution that went through the Human Rights Commission in Geneva just recently. I was quite pleased with this statement:

Recognizing that the family is the basic unit of society and as such should be strengthened; that it is entitled to receive comprehensive protection and support; that the primary responsibility for the protection, upbringing and development of children rests with the family; that all institutions of society should respect children's rights and secure their well-being and render appropriate assistance to parents, families, legal guardians and other caregivers so that children can grow and develop in a safe and stable environment and in an atmosphere of happiness, love, and understanding, bearing in mind that in different cultural, social, and political systems, various forms of family exist;

    So that's a phrase that's now gone into this annual resolution on children's rights. It also has a whole section on the rights of children in parental separation, and so on, which we can leave with the clerk and have it shared with you.

    It says:

To take all appropriate measures, especially educational measures, to further promote the responsibility of both parents in the education, development and raising of children

    But beyond that are the common responsibilities parents have for the upbringing and development of their children. It's in a section called “Identity, family relations and birth registration”. Birth registration luckily is not a problem in this country.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: I guess I have an overall concern that in our country what's happening in the name of individual freedoms sometimes, in my opinion, totally disregards the best interests of the children involved.

    Where we're talking about the needs of the children, do you see us being weak in the area of really talking about parental responsibilities; the responsibilities of those who are bringing children into this world; the responsibilities of those who are caring for children, regardless of that particular definition of a family?

    Hon. Landon Pearson: I think one of the strongest recommendations that has come forward in our consultations is the need for much better parenting preparation and support for parents, particularly parents of young children. I think there's certainly recognition that it's probably harder to parent now than it was when I was a parent of young children, and that we need to rally far more resources to help young people who are having children recognize the responsibility they're undertaking. This need comes from right across the spectrum.

    An organization in Toronto called, Invest in Kids, did an interesting nationwide study on parental attitudes. The good news is that parents think looking after young children is about the most important thing they do. The bad news is they don't know what to do. They don't know how to do it.

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    The Chair: I have to interrupt because this is a beautiful...it's not a segue, but we have time.

    I think it's entirely appropriate that I should mention we've just been joined by some future witnesses. By the way, Senator Pearson, you are welcome to stay, of course.

    From the Rainbow Youth Centre we have Kim Wolbaum and Nadine Egler-Wiome, who are respectively the coordinator and co-facilitator of the young parent program. How do you like that? We do this so well.

    I was watching them nod.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: So you were actually warning me to be careful how I say this.

    The Chair: Not at all. I was just reinforcing the messages and saying I feel like the entrepreneur here.

    Perhaps we might move on. I don't mean to cut you off, Mr. Spencer.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: That's fine. We have other people.

    The Chair: Wendy Lill, do you have anything you want to add or ask?

    Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): I want to thank you for coming here. We want to talk about a document that talks about a Canada fit for children.

    I'm looking at the 1989 UN Convention of the Rights of the Child. I know there was an all-party resolution to eradicate child poverty by 2000, right here in Ottawa. It appears that one in five children is living in poverty now, and that's really a shame and a disgrace. So we have not succeeded in that.

    I'm very concerned about all of the issues facing kids now. There are many health issues, such as children's cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, problems with sterility, the increase in autism, and the increase in fetal alcohol syndrome. We weren't really faced with the issues of obesity and inactivity 20 years ago.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: Right. That's been signalled as an emerging issue.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: We have the issue that's really been brought about by enormous cuts to support programs for the provinces, in terms of social services, education, and health. We see the provinces cutting educational supports for kids with disabilities. There are thousands of kids with disabilities who are languishing in classrooms and have basically been dumped. Under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, they are not getting the kinds of supports they need to have a country fit for them.

    As we know, the AFN is here right now. We are having very powerful hearings before us. This country is not fit for native kids--the housing situation facing kids, the water. We hear from native mothers all the time that living is making their kids sick. You know, I really can't feel too good about how we are doing right now. If we had a report card, I don't think it would show we were doing very well for our children.

    There are certain government MPs who have actually moved the issue along to a certain extent, and I appreciate it a great deal. But from where I sit as a New Democrat I'm very concerned about homelessness; that at least one-quarter of our kids are living in poverty; and about the disabling qualities of their lives.

    So how is that going to fit into a nice little book like this? Are we going to see that in a book like this? Otherwise, I don't think we should waste the paper. I'd like it to show where we are not succeeding and what our challenges are.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: I think the challenges will be very clearly laid out, because you haven't said anything we haven't heard from other Canadians who are coming forward.

    I think it's an opportunity for me to say there's a sort of double task here. One is our responsibility domestically. The other is our responsibility internationally. We are also looking at issues around trafficking of children, the sexual exploitation of children, war-affected children, and our programs in child protection.

    I've just come back from two weeks in Mexico, where I visited a centre for children's rehabilitation. I know one gets very discouraged about our country, but my goodness, if you were a Mexican who had a child with disabilities you would be in a very difficult situation.

    I think our best task is to keep identifying and try to keep moving forward. In solving all these problems, resolving these problems you move forward and you move back. I think that's going to be historically our question.

    You get SARS, which suddenly absorbs whole amounts of resources. You get other things that happen--the environmental deterioration, which is not just our fault, and so on. We have to remember that we're living in a global community. We can share a vision of where we should be going, and then hope that other people will take the opportunity to keep pushing.

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    Ms. Wendy Lill: I have to agree with you that this country is looked upon as a model, in many respects, so that gives us a great deal of responsibility. We have to work harder and we have to be exemplary in our behaviour.

    We know that our relationship with aboriginal Canadians is not good; it's known around the world that it's not good. I'm wondering about one of the recommendations that was made to us by a witness that a special advisor on aboriginal children and youth be appointed to assist the Prime Minister's office at the Privy Council Office; really put somebody right in there who will make the point every day that we're not doing very well.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: I'm a fan of those ideas.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: You'd recommend that.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: You need someone who is constantly moving the issue; who understands it in all its multiple dimensions; whose interest is the best interests of the child; and who can see all the things.

    I've been working with Mary Simon on a foundation for Arctic children, and it's same kind of thing. It's necessary to have these institutions that can focus on ways that are for the children, and not all the other kinds of issues around them.

    Children will still be in difficulty as long as we have poverty and so on, but even solving poverty, as you know, is not the only answer. Rich people have children who are having a hard time too. So we have to really try to find what the fundamental issues are that enable children to be strong, healthy, responsible, contributing--and artistic. That's another whole issue. I didn't talk about that, but it's something we'll be looking at.

    I know you want to move on.

    The Chair: Let me just ask a couple of questions. One is on how you will deal in the response, in the little book, with the unique needs of aboriginal kids, whether they're on reserve or off reserve. How you're going to handle that is the question.

    The other one--I love the irony, and I have to confess this is the work of Julie over here--points out that a certain Senator Pearson put forward a proposal for a commissioner for Canada's children. Had it existed--I don't know if you would have a job or not--it would have helped in the coordination of strategies to respond to A World Fit For Children.

    This is a cheeky question. Are you going to recommend that the proposal go forward as a coordinating mechanism? It would take a certain amount of chutzpah, but it would be logical.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: Well, it's in here. One of the recommendations in A World Fit For Children is that countries establish mechanisms for promoting the rights of children. Certain countries have ombudsmen or commissioners.

    What mechanism works best for a Canadian federation? It may be a council rather than a commissioner, but it's emerging from everybody. Many people who've written to us have said we have to have some kind of focal point for children at the national level.

    So that's the answer to that. We hope this will emerge so powerfully that we can make it the recommendation.

    On approaches around aboriginal children, I've been very interested in what we've been learning in the Senate committee on urban aboriginal youth. We've found that a lot of young aboriginal people are very imaginative, entrepreneurial, and definitely creative. They're looking at a different vision of being aboriginal from some of the older people.

    With the quality of education and some of the imaginative programs we've seen in Edmonton and other places, I'm getting quite encouraged about what's happening with young people. There is so much potential in the young aboriginal population that I think our framework will be looking more in that direction. What are the things that are working, and how can we promote them? How can we break down some of these ineffective ways of funding, and so on, and make them much more enabling, instead of taking all your time to fill in...? I can see you understand what I mean.

    So those are the kinds of things we'll be looking at. I think we'll be looking at the aboriginal people of Canada as a great asset. What can we do in the future to promote that asset?

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    The Chair: I think that's a great note on which to bring this part of the proceedings to a formal end.

    I know you have many obligations, and of course you're perfectly welcome to stay as long as you like.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: Andrea is going to stay. Do you mind staying, Andrea?

    The Chair: It's most appropriate because the specific subject today is urban aboriginal kids aged zero to 12 who are children of adolescent mothers. This brings together our two committees and the work we do in a most appropriate way.

    We want to thank you, Landon, for coming. It's always a treat and it's fun working with you.

    Hon. Landon Pearson: Thank you.

    I'll be really happy to hear from any of you individually, if you want to get in touch.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Let's shift gears and welcome our next three witnesses. Why don't we proceed in the way it's arranged in our batting order. We'll start with Kelly, if we can. Welcome.

    You can see how all of this stuff hangs together. Tell us about yourself, Marymound North, and the work you do.

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski (Director, Marymound North) Thank you.

    It's actually an awesome segue. I took it from the Internet and read it on the plane on my way here from Thompson, Manitoba. I made all kinds of notes on how it relates to the type of work, and I think it answers some of the questions you had.

    I first want to thank you for the opportunity to give witness to you today. I applaud your request that I consider strengths, challenges, and needs because I think that's language that must be used, rather than continually looking at problems.

    Needs are far more universal, as they relate to urban aboriginal adolescent parents and their children. I've been involved with that particular target population for just over 20 years--I date myself a little.

    I'm the director for Marymound North in Thompson, Manitoba. Marymound is a private non-profit agency that provides a range of therapeutic and educational services to individuals and their families. It's a Good Shepherd-sponsored organization. The Sisters of the Good Shepherd are in most countries of the world, representing about 600 different agencies.

    There's a very high population of aboriginal young people being served through Marymound, who strive to overcome a range of personal difficulties including abuse, depression, family problems, and special educational kinds of needs.

    In Thompson, where I have been since 1984, we operate a multi-use facility for children between the ages of zero and 17. It covers everything from emergency to short-term transitional kinds of services for children and their families. More recently we've been looking at developing more specialized resources.

    In 1994, Marymound, along with three other organizations, submitted a proposal for funding from the Brighter Futures Initiative announced by Health Canada through their community action program for children. We formed a project that we call Futures, which I'm going to talk a little bit about.

    This is a multi-site project that addresses helping with choices and consequences around teen pregnancy. Thankfully, as of April 1, 2003, we were successful in our renewal application to receive another three-year block of funding.

    It's a very unique project, in that it involves a partnership with two other organizations. We used to have three others, and we may be looking at a third partner. Although Marymound as a sponsor is a lead agency, it incorporates the values and philosophies of each unique partner. So it isn't just driven by Marymound. There's equal say in that partnership on how funding is going to be spent, and that kind of thing. I think it's really key for what you're looking at. I believe that has been integral, and is why the project continues to be very successful.

    It began and continues to operate as a very grassroots kind of approach to delivering services to that target population, which I believe is also very key. I'd just like to say that in addition to the budget we receive through Health Canada, we receive in-kind contributions. I think that speaks to the partnership level. So if we get $204,000 to operate that program every year, it costs almost double that to administer it.

    I'm certain that through the dialogue portion of this meeting you may have more specific questions about the inner workings of the project. I'd like to comment on the strengths and successes, in reaching the target populations Futures works with.

    Futures is reaching participants who are facing multiple risk factors. Of our participants, 88% are aboriginal young people living off reserve; 75% are living in low-income families or are on social assistance; and 100% of the participants are at risk of becoming pregnant, are pregnant, or are parents of children between the ages of zero and six. Certainly there are older children than that, but that's our mandate within the CAPC funding.

º  (1610)  

    The very basics of grassroots programming and services has the staff engaging in developing rapport with participants in a very meaningful and trusting way for them. It's very basic. It doesn't come from a “we know best approach” or a “we know best attitude”. The programs and the groups are very much participant driven: what's important to you; what's going to be helpful to you; what are the strengths you have; how can we build on that? I believe that is key.

    Other successes include multi-site programming through the satellite sites connected with the Futures partners. So at Marymound we have a satellite site and a Futures site. Wherever our partners are there is a site, and that increases community coverage.

    Home visits and meetings in informal community sites are beneficial. We meet with participants where they're most comfortable. The extent of the partnership is also successful. It has evolved and grown over the years. An effective partnership takes a lot of work, not unlike an effective marriage, I think.

    Community support for the project is comprehensive and impressive. Cross-agency collaboration within the city has also been helpful, so a lot of reciprocal arrangements are made. We may provide a session that touches on the needs of young people in the crisis centre, so their participants will come and child minders will work together--that kind of thing. There's a lot of that kind of support and reciprocal arrangements.

    On training of the staff, Futures demonstrates a commitment to a continuous learning environment to refine and strengthen staff's ability and knowledge.

    On using the population health approach and being evaluated by that, please don't lose that language. Over the last 15 years we've heard that language. It's more federal, and I think it's coming around a bit more provincially. Provincially it needs to be a bit more on board. It truly does look at what makes each of us healthy, in terms of those 12 determinants. We are evaluated based on that, and so we should be.

    Futures is also committed to the determinant of education, and we have an alternative classroom for grade 9 students at our main site. There's an off-campus classroom, and most of the students in there are parents themselves. All of them would be considered at high risk of becoming young parents.

    In our local high school, teen parents are provided with a credit for their participation, as a result of successful lobbying of Futures. So on high school completion, kids get a credit for going through some support and parenting classes, and that kind of thing.

    I really look forward to what you guys have to say. I hope we can do some networking after.

    High school completion is considered a primary goal when working with youth who are at risk of pregnancy, are pregnant, or are parenting. Healthy lifestyles, parenting skills, and accessing resources are absolutely integral to the teens' lives, and certainly to the lives of their children.

    I've just listed in point form some of the challenges. I'm not sure if you want me to go...

º  (1615)  

    The Chair: I suggest we bring this out in the dialogue if we can, so relax. I think we should move along briskly from Thompson to Regina, and hear from our other guests.

    We welcome both of you and invite you to make some opening remarks. Then we can get into a discussion all the way around.

    Have you met before? No. This is why we're here--to bring you all together from across Canada. Why we have to be doing it in Ottawa I'm not sure. But anyway, go ahead.

    Welcome both of you.

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome (Co-facilitator, Young Parent Program, Rainbow Youth Centre): Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, honourable members, fellow agencies, and observers.

    There is no greater resource for a nation than its children. Each generation brings new ideas and creative approaches to meeting current needs and moving toward future goals. However, the pandemic of adolescent pregnancy and parenthood in Canada continues to put many children at risk.

    Vulnerable and endangered children are often reared by families who lack the stability and support necessary for survival in our ever-changing society. Nevertheless, adolescent parenthood isn't a new phenomenon, nor is it the critical issue. The critical issue today is being a parent at this time and in this place.

    My name is Nadine Egler-Wiome, and this is Kim Wolbaum. Together we coordinate the young parent program at the Rainbow Youth Centre in Regina, Saskatchewan. We've been invited here today to speak with you on the strengths, challenges, and needs of off-reserve aboriginal children.

    We're going to approach the subject using the principles and beliefs of our program, which is based on the awareness that the health and well-being of children most often, if not always, depend on the health and well-being of their parents. Thus to focus on the children ultimately means focusing on their parents.

    We're here today speaking to you not only as front-line workers, but more importantly as the voice of our participants from the young parent program--young aboriginal parents who desire growth and change for themselves and their children. In preparation, we sat down with them and asked the question: “What key issues are you and your children facing as young, urban, aboriginal parents?” Their responses were reflective and thoughtful. Unfortunately, they also reconfirmed what we've already learned about their lives.

    We know that you are already familiar with many of the issues that young people face today. So we've decided that in the next few moments we're going to focus more on their less predictable thoughts, concerns, and ideas for growth and change in Canada.

    The young parent program participants spoke about young urban aboriginals who are “living the life as they know it”. They are parenting as they were parented, coping as they see their parents cope, and meeting financial needs in the same way they know their parents' financial needs are being met. As these things are often passed on through the generations, young urban aboriginal parents are coping with poverty, isolation, homelessness, reduced support systems, addictions, violence, deculturalization, low self-esteem, and little self-worth.

    These conditions can often render them financially and emotionally incapable and unable to meet the multiple demands of their infants and toddlers. As parents attempt to focus alongside these issues, children learn survival mode as a viable way of life.

    When speaking with young parents, the issue of isolation seems to be the one that continually came up as a footnote to almost every other issue. Young urban aboriginal parents often subsist with few supports, which is a concept that's not congruent with aboriginal culture. Working with aboriginal parents, we've often heard that it takes a community to raise a child. It's a wonderful little phrase, but unfortunately many young people don't have that sense of community or families around them in an urban setting. Many of their families and a sense of community are out on the reserves, which they're often kept apart from because they're living in poverty. There's no vehicle or access to a telephone to keep them in contact with their support system.

    Many would perhaps suggest there should be ample supports for young families when living in a city, and isolation shouldn't be an issue. However, there are many barriers to accessing support systems in the city, including awareness of the supports, transportation to the supports, program fees, and childcare.

    Contacting community resources can often be more challenging than we'd like to believe. Knowing how to find community supports often requires a skill level that isn't there for people with lower literacy and lower education levels. Low self-confidence also proves to be a major barrier that goes hand in hand with the lower skill levels, as people often feel inadequate and incapable of making positive changes in their lives. Our participants spoke about a sense of isolation that accompanies hopelessness and helplessness in not knowing how to put your children into childcare, or even how to go about looking for work.

    Isolation can also be an issue for young people who are aware of community supports. There are often stigmas attached to these services. For some there's the belief that community services tend to only work with young aboriginal people who are poor and incapable of functioning without the intervention of a social service. There's also the stigma that parenting courses exist solely for low-income people--the idea that being poor means you can't be a good parent. While these stigmas are perhaps not true, they are keeping young people from accessing useful support systems.

º  (1620)  

    When reflecting on the comment, “living the life as you know it”, we can also acknowledge the considerable demands that are being put on young people today. At the Rainbow Youth Centre we have often been witness to many children who are expected to take on the responsibilities generally known to adults. Often 11-year-olds and 12-year-olds show up at the centre with younger siblings, nieces, nephews, or cousins. In speaking with them, it is evident that children are acting as the caregivers of other children for extended periods of time.

    Society often asks why teenage pregnancy continues to be an epidemic among aboriginal youth. Could it be that this is another way they're living life as they know it? Could it be that perhaps they're having babies so they're less alone? We've heard that it's a need to be loved and have someone to love you back. We've been told it's for a sense of importance and a sense of purpose. Perhaps this is one way to have something they can truly call their own.

    At this time I'd also like to mention that as a tribute to the young parents who have been involved with Rainbow Youth Centre, we would like to acknowledge their strengths. We appreciate the genuine care they have for their families and their children. We marvel at their determination, when wading through red tape that's often involved in the services they have to seek. We validate their courage in asking for guidance and support, despite the stigmas that are attached to the services.

    Most of all, we admire their ability to envision a brighter future for themselves, their families, their children.

    With that I'd like to turn the floor over to Kim.

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum (Coordinator, Young Parent Program, Rainbow Youth Centre): Thanks, Nadine.

    Now that you've heard a brief overview of some of the issues that are faced by young urban aboriginal parents and their children, I would like to continue by speaking a little bit about our young parent program and what we do to address these issues. I'd also like to share with you some of the recommendations our participants, fellow staff members, and Nadine and I came up with to assist young urban aboriginal parents in creating healthier homes for themselves and their families.

    The young parent program began as a response to the self-identified needs of young parents who were attending the Rainbow Youth Centre. They expressed an interest in the Rainbow providing a skill and support program for young parents. This program targets young parents who desire change or growth for themselves and their children. We concentrate on empowering parents through group exercise, networking, problem-solving, and enhancing parenting skills.

    While building on their existing parenting skills, parents can develop confidence and foster personal strength through modelling practice and support. Our young parent program attempts to address and overcome the barriers that many young parents struggle with when seeking community supports. In an attempt to break down some of these barriers, our program provides child care and transportation for participants who want to attend.

    Another unique aspect of our program is that we welcome and encourage fathers to take part. It is to the advantage of a child to have both parents ready and willing to be attentive to their needs. There seems to be a misconception that young aboriginal fathers do not want to be involved in their children's lives. However, our program has seen otherwise.

    On many occasions we have been in contact with many men who are seeking support and information on parenting. Unfortunately, there isn't a program designed especially for fathers in our community. In fact, we are one of the very few programs that invites men into our parenting groups.

    As our program encourages the concept of co-parenting, we are building support systems and helping reduce the barriers of isolation. Nonetheless, the young parent program has struggles of its own. We are in constant battle with time, money, and resources. We are very enthusiastic about our ever-increasing numbers; however, this increase also demands a waiting list and there is need for additional funding.

    As it stands alone, the young parent program is not capable of fully addressing all of the interests and needs of people who would like to attend. On that note, we'd like to share with you some recommendations that would further address the needs of young urban aboriginal parents and their families.

    Our first recommendation is to create more parenting programs and supports in urban communities. Many young parents have not had the opportunity to learn effective parenting skills from healthy adults. We view this as an opportunity to break the cycle that has been passed down through the generations. It's a cycle we've all been aware of for quite some time: people living life as they know it.

    Our second recommendation is for the development of more parenting programs especially designed to address the needs of young fathers. It is imperative for our community to create parenting groups that focus on the issues of fatherhood.

    Our third recommendation is for more transition-to-work programs. The Rainbow Youth Centre offers a highly successful employment strategy program called “On the Road to Employment”. This program has continually proven to make a difference in the lives of youth and their families by offering skills and training that are otherwise inaccessible. This type of program helps young people overcome the obstacles that often get in the way of health and well-being.

    Our fourth recommendation is for more in-home support programs to ensure that young families have regular and consistent support, especially when isolation is an issue. We believe that by giving more dollars to family support programs, less money would be required for foster care and child protection services, as they would be used as a last resort.

    Our fifth recommendation is for additional respite spaces in child care centres for children aged zero to three. The development that occurs in a child under the age of five is critical learning that lasts a lifetime. When children reach the age of three they are eligible for many different programs offered by the community. However, up to age three many children of at-risk parents are denied the types of stimuli that are necessary to encourage the best possible growth and development of the child. By ensuring respite spaces, these critical years will not be lost.

    Our sixth and final recommendation, as expressed by our young program participants, is that young urban aboriginals be encouraged to attend multicultural centres, such as the Rainbow Youth Centre. A participant spoke about the value and uniqueness of attending programs in a multicultural environment. They are incredibly beneficial, as these centres aim to teach cultural respect by creating understanding and building acceptance. They spoke about the value of taking part in programming that was not racist or biased, and gives them the opportunity to learn from different people with different values and experiences.

º  (1625)  

    On behalf of the Rainbow Youth Centre we'd like to thank the subcommittee for inviting us here and giving us the opportunity to address some of the issues aboriginal youth face and the need for change in urban communities.

    When thinking about future generations we hope that one day, when young people speak of living life as they know it, they will be speaking of a life of true health and happiness.

    We hope that our thoughts, views, and ideas have been of help to your research.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: I'd like to thank all three of you very much. It's very helpful, and it's good to get two perspectives. There's a common theme, but the last two witnesses brought a different dimension. We're also very grateful for the homework you did in getting young people to talk directly. I think that was extremely helpful to us.

    Let me just move right along then to anybody over here. We're a fairly informal group, as you see, so anybody can pitch in.

    Do you want to start, Mr. Spencer?

º  (1630)  

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Sure, I'll start.

    Thanks to Kelly. She can relax. We have not had a fatality yet within our committee witness group. They all have survived, so you can expect to be able to do that.

    Wendy is probably more familiar with what's going on up there. I'm very happy to meet some fellow Reginans here. I am proud of you and your presentation and the things you have brought out here. You've brought out some points that I haven't heard mentioned by very many people. I'm extremely glad to hear that coming from you.

    The Chair: Have you been to their place?

    Mr. Larry Spencer: No.

    The Chair: That was my next question. Of course, that's your assignment.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: I will definitely do that. As I sit here I wonder if Kim is related to the big tall Wolbaum who went to high school and played football at Thom Collegiate with my youngest son. We'll leave that for another discussion.

    I was really impressed with your promotion or understanding of the need of fathers' involvement, because I see so many of the things that are happening. I think that's one of the things that is so extremely important. One of the keys to strengthening any society and any family-based thing is to recapture the responsibility that fathers should recognize and have.

    I'm curious as to just how you're going about that. Tell me a little bit more about your program for fathers and how you're encouraging them.

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: When we run our program, right from orientation we generally have to invite the young women to go home and encourage their partners to come. They often don't come on the first day, but as the program continues they come with their partner.

    We basically encourage them and say, “It's going to be easier if you're both on the same page. You're going to be able to parent better. You're going to have less conflict between the two of you if your partner is also present because you won't have to explain the skills you're learning or give some further explanation of the things you're doing”.

    Not all of them are comfortable coming in though. One thing I have been faced with a few times within the last few months is fathers calling us up and seeking support and resources separate from their partners. There are often custody issues or something, where they're looking for support as single fathers. There's really nothing out there, and the comfort level isn't always there.

    That's why Kim mentioned the need for programming specifically for them, so they have that comfort space where they can be with just other fathers, to really talk about some of the issues.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Do you have older fathers or any men involved in assisting you with instructions to these young men?

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: We don't have any at the current time.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: We'll have to talk about that.

    Breaking the cycle of life as they know it is extremely important. That's where I've invested about the last 30 years of my life with people, in general. It's so easy for us to become trapped in our situation and feel there is no way out and no way of changing it.

    What's your main approach in trying to take them out of that situation? Are you primarily working on attitude, or are you trying to point them to practical steps? I'm presuming you use a combination, but where do you sort of map that out?

º  (1635)  

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: We focus on life skills, empowering them, and giving them the skills to make changes in their lives. They're often unaware of how to do things like find proper housing. They're trapped. They're not sure how to do it. We empower them and give them the resources and the strengths.

    We also work a lot on self-esteem, because they often have very damaged self-esteem. It's hard to move forward and change when there are self-esteem issues.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: On your funding needs, does your funding come through the same service provider in Regina that deals with the early childhood...?

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: Do you mean the early learning centre?

    Mr. Larry Spencer: Yes. Are you dependent on applying through that same group for your funding?

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: Yes we are, through CAPC.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: You are somewhat limited.

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: We're very limited.

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: We're running a program that has a waiting list. We run parenting programs twice a week, and there are office visits and home visits--all the support that's needed. It's very hard to meet the needs of these young parents with one-and-a-half staff.

º  (1640)  

    Mr. Larry Spencer: So how many young parents are you dealing with and how long is your waiting list?

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: As it stands right now, there are 42 parents we are working with, plus their children. We have people calling daily wanting to join the program. We just don't have enough space. By taking on too many people we can't do the one-on-one counselling that's much needed, as well as the parenting group. We're always struggling.

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: It is very sad because we receive a lot of referrals from social services through the courts, through protection. I find it even more difficult when young parents call up on their own behalf. For example, I had one young mother call me up and say, “I'm having such a hard time with my aggression. I'm getting so angry with my little three-year-old. I don't know how to deal with this. I need your help”.

    Fortunately, in her case we were able to bring her on board. But others have found the courage within themselves to reach out for that support and we've had to say, “Sorry, we're in the midst of a program and have no more spaces to offer you”.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: I have one question for Kelly. You mentioned something about $104,000 for a program and that it costs double to administer it. I didn't understand what you meant by those two figures.

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: We get approximately $204,000 a year to administer the Futures program. On a yearly basis, when we look at the in-kind contributions, office space, supervision, perhaps my time, collecting that kind of data over the years has told us it costs almost double what our actual contribution is on a yearly basis to administer the program.

    My partner from the Burntwood Regional Health Authority is a nurse who provides programming. It sounds like we have some very similar kinds of things operating. So people will come to Futures, but they will never go to get that prenatal care from a health centre. They just won't make it there, but they will through other CAPC...because relationships have been developed.

    We had one young person who would only have her prenatal visits done in the Futures support worker's office in the facility where my office happens to be. She's a child who grew up in the system, and going into that building represented far too much pain and that kind of thing for her.

    But just to get back to your question, administrative costs, office space, all those kinds of things that represent the actual costs of running a program but are in-kind that support the Futures program--the cost is almost double that.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: So where does that come from?

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: Through in-kind.... Part of the uniqueness of the partnership is that different partners recognize they have a staff person in their facility who can carry out some of the work within each individual centre, but very specific to the CAPC-mandated target population.

    It's an agreement, and it kind of evolved into that. I don't think we knew that's what it was going to look like when we first began.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Mr. Gagnon

    Mr. Sébastien Gagnon (Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, BQ): Thank you very much for appearing before our committee. It is very important for us to have you here because it helps us to understand the issues. I will try to talk slowly because in my province we tend to speak very fast.

    Very often community groups have a hard time connecting with their target population. In your case, I understood that demand for your services is greater than what you can absorb. In your view, what would be the proportion of people who have problems and who do not get support? In our previous hearings, people often said it was hard to reach some groups of needy people, especially in an urban setting.

[English]

    The Chair: It's a question about unmet needs.

    Would you like to start?

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: As Kim mentioned, we have about 42 participants right now in our program. The community we tend to serve is highly populated. Unfortunately, we don't have statistics here today, as we were told before coming that you had ample statistics and didn't need any more.

    Looking at the fact that we're meeting with about 40 participants, the number of people we see on the streets, and the number of people who come to the centre just for the supper program with their children alone, I'm going to take a guess and say we're probably reaching 5% to 10% in that community alone, simply because of all the isolation issues I mentioned.

    Would you say that number is about accurate?

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: I'd say it's a bit higher than that, at about 20% of the community.

    We're well-known in the community. We're quite a popular centre. We have a variety of programs, so there isn't really a need for us to reach out to them because they all know about us and trust us. Some of them have been coming there for supper since they were five. Now they're 19 and they're pregnant. We're often like their family.

    It's a family environment so they come to us. We would do more reaching out, but we're overpopulated now.

º  (1645)  

    The Chair: Kelly, when you hear the question how does it strike you?

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: We're bursting at the seams as well. A lot of people know about our program, but as far as reaching marginalized people, there are tons who just aren't touched. Absolutely.

    There are mobility issues. If you have a parent of several children who are young and her own adolescent daughter is at risk, it's difficult to get to the place. There's an awful lot of poverty. It's an absolutely huge issue, so there's an awful lot of marginalized people who we're not reaching.

    If we could, I guess you would see the same thing. You could double what you were doing and get more participants and it still wouldn't be enough.

[Translation]

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Sébastien Gagnon): Thank you for this answer.

    As you know, many community groups like yours lack resources to do the job. So it is important to be able to demonstrate the unmet needs that are there. I am happy that you could provide this information.

    What I am going to say may sound somewhat partisan, but I want to note that our government has a budget surplus year after year. It is important for you to let us know about your needs, as MPs, but you also need to make your own representations in order to access additional resources. I believe it is our role, as members of parliament and setting aside all partisanship, to understand the issues and to provide the resources that are required.

    So I encourage you to keep up the good work since you are achieving good results. But do not hesitate to make the representations required in order to increase the funding that is made available to you.

    The Chair: You will have the support not only of opposition members but also of government members who sometimes stand in opposition to their own government.

    But that is another issue.

[English]

    Wendy Lill.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: Thank you.

    It's really wonderful to have all three of you here. It sounds like you're dealing with the same population, to a certain extent.

    The comments I've heard over and over are on isolation, being without supports, and hopelessness. One of the findings of the Canadian community health survey was that 21% of off-reserve aboriginal people reported major depressive episodes in the year before the survey. We're talking about teenage mothers who are isolated and depressed. As you say, they've often come out of abusive situations.

    What would you say about the services that are available for persons with mental health problems? Are they culturally appropriate? What's happening on the ground with mental health services for young aboriginal people in the city?

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: For those who come to our program with mental health issues, that's not an area we address. Unfortunately, generally with social services they're steered in the direction of the actual facility for mental health, which I think a lot of them just step back from. The ones with disabilities really aren't getting the help they require, just because of the simple fact they're intimidated by that building.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: Depression isn't necessarily an identifiable disability--well it could be; it could be a bipolar disorder. You're saying they're afraid of the services that may be offered and just stay away from them.

    I have certainly seen, where I come from, that for some people to get any kind of assistance they have to be in the court system. That's the only way there's anything available for them. They can't see a psychiatrist unless they've created some kind of violent episode, and then they'll get seen, maybe. So we're looking at a real crisis, obviously, in terms of mental health services for young aboriginal women and....

º  (1650)  

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: The identification of mental health issues would certainly be beneficial. I think there should more intervention at the school level and more resources for those aged seven to twelve.

    Right now there are two pregnant 12-years-olds in Thompson that we're aware of. The Futures staff has said that by the time they're 13 they're having sex and it's too late. You really need to look at what kinds of resources can be brought into the schools for those aged seven to twelve. Along with that we need better detection and better identification of mental health issues.

    Kids are walking out of school as early as grade four and not going back because people are missing the boat. So add to poverty all the issues around education and lack of it. I think more is being done within our community around off-campus classrooms and that kind of thing. But all of the resources that are there need to be strengthened.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: I'm actually interested in one specific thing around this in-kind funding. I worry about the fragility of both of your centres, because things get cut and priorities change.

    You say you're very dependent on all sorts of other groups kicking in their support. What happens if suddenly a couple of them are not able to support you? Are you satisfied with the support you're getting from the federal government? Do you feel it's going to be realistically there for you? Is it in jeopardy?

    I guess I'd like to know how both groups feel about the community action program for children, CAPC. Is it meeting your needs for the jobs you're trying to do? How would you strengthen that program? Those are my last questions to both of you.

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: In my role as sponsor, the other facility I work with is child welfare. Children are placed there that are in need of protection and that kind of thing, so I work primarily hands-on with those children and those families. As a sponsoring organization, there's a team of people who work within the project itself and there's a site. So Marymound's funding isn't threatened. If CAPC weren't there we would still operate.

    We have a value base that dovetails. Any young person within the child welfare system, and certainly the ones we see in our region, are at risk of becoming young parents, which is why we have a satellite at our office.

    We have an excellent rapport with our consultants from Health Canada. They're 500 miles away and do things by site visit, so a good relationship with them is very important. The unfortunate thing is that the funding comes in three-year blocks. All of the staff of Futures didn't know if they were going to have jobs until maybe February, when we got confirmation. We had a pretty good idea, but there was still that element of, “I don't know if I'm going to have a job, and we don't know if we're going to be able to be here for our participants beyond three years”.

    It obviously took many years of research to look at why you got to the Brighter Futures initiative in the first place. I'm not talking about lessening the reporting requirements or the evaluations, or any micro or macro kinds of evaluations. Keep all of those things in place, but certainly look at longer term funding than just in three-year blocks.

    The Chair: I'm going to take the chairman's prerogative to perhaps provide the last line of questions.

    What I enjoyed about your presentation was the complexity. There's usually something wrong with easy answers. I was particularly interested in the weight you placed on trying to take life as it's being lived, turn it around, and make it a positive thing.

    There's no getting away from the fact that we have young moms. There's no point in saying, “You shouldn't have done that”. It's a little late. The challenge is to somehow take this experience, move forward with it, and try to make it something positive.

    I guess one's immediate reaction is to say, “Boy, they were already in trouble and now they're in worse trouble because they have somebody else who they're responsible for--a child”. But you also said one of the reasons they may have decided to have a child was for companionship, love, or whatever else--to reduce isolation. Then you talked about the young fathers too.

    I guess I'm trying to construct a scenario through your experience in which somebody actually turns it around says, “Do I become a more responsible person because I am a parent?” Can you then take that and say, “I want to do the right thing for this child.” and make that an experience? Furthermore, can you say, “I'm going to try to bring along the partner because we want the kid to have two parents whenever possible and turn that into a positive experience”?

    First of all, that's being a bit normative. It's a bit like saying it's better to have two parents than one, and it's better that they both be there.

    Are there actually cases where people's lives have worked out for the better because they went through this experience; where they had to grow up fast, but they grew up in a way that was positive for them and positive for their future? How do you make that happen?

    How do you react to all that? It's a very vague observation.

º  (1655)  

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: Can I give you an example?

    The Chair: Sure.

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: When I began working with the program I was working with a participant who was 19 years old and pregnant. The father of her child was in jail because he dragged her out of her house, beat her up, and stabbed her while she was pregnant. She almost lost her baby. She was living in horrible housing, where there were prostitutes on her corner every night. She was drinking and doing drugs, and wanted to have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption.

    She was about five months pregnant when I began to work with her, when she joined the program. We got her involved in parenting programs and were a support for her. In the end she stopped doing drugs and drinking throughout the rest of her pregnancy. She had her child.

    The Chair: Was the child okay?

    Ms. Kim Wolbaum: Yes, the child was healthy. There's nothing wrong as far as we know to this point--no FAS or anything.

    She's now living in a healthy environment, a healthy home, with no prostitutes around. She's working for the government and making more money than we do. She is healthy. She has also spoken to other moms about abuse, being involved in that situation, and getting out.

    I don't think we did it. We just supported her in reaching her goals and empowering herself. Before she went to the government she worked at Rainbow. We hired her, and then she got a better-paying job.

    So that's how she got there. We're not magicians. We don't fix things, but we empower people, build on their strengths, give them the courage and supports they need, and offer them the resources they need. She's amazing.

    The Chair: That's making the best of a very bad situation. Just as we would want to stop fetal alcohol syndrome, absolutely--it's the world's most preventable disease--I suppose by the time they come to you they are on their way to having a baby.

    But what can one do beforehand, given the fact it's probably not improving their life chances generally to have early pregnancies, in terms of getting to the population that is likely to have these kids, and taking a population health approach, which we know is the one that works with larger numbers of people? What are the lessons we need to teach earlier?

    Kelly.

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: That's a pretty loaded question. I believe subsequent pregnancies are being delayed and they're having healthier babies because of programs like ours--babies without developmental insults like FAS, etc.

    So I think it's helpful when we look at lessons learned and consider them when you look at regular programming and when they support your funding, because they're not really statistical. They're nice stories, and our consultants are very interested in hearing those kinds of things, much like the story you just shared--lessons learned, success stories, and building on them. It's really building on their strengths.

    I'm not sure if I'm really answering your question.

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    The Chair: It's interesting that we looked at various programs earlier, for example, the aboriginal head start program, which functions both on reserve and off reserve.

    We know from the literature on head start programs generally--not this one because it hasn't been in business long enough--that when you do the longitudinal survey and follow up on the group with the high intervention rates, things like teenage pregnancies rates drop. The drop-out rate drops. They do better through the life course because we got to them at that stage. Of course, we always want to help people whenever they are in trouble, but it sure seems to indicate that earlier is better in a lot of these things.

    You are our last witnesses before we have to sit down and start figuring out what all of this means. One of the things we heard from a previous witness the last time we were out, maybe two weeks ago, was to consider family services, childcare, or working with parenting courses as essentially both a hook to bring people who are in trouble into a helpful and caring environment, and a hub for a group of other services. I thought I heard you both say that sort of thing. It's a way of putting the child and the parent at the centre, but realizing we have to reach out and get them into good housing, in the example you gave, Kim.

    I think we're noodling with what that actually would mean, in terms of a policy recommendation or as a way of trying to produce some coherence in cities. So if we put the family and the child at the centre and create a family-enabling environment, so to speak, we can then actually work off into the areas of employment, training, respite care, and all the rest of it.

    Would you encourage us to pursue that as a kind of organizing principle?

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: Absolutely and without a doubt.

    The Chair: That's where you get this consortium of services you relate to can and refer people to, so it's not just about--

    Ms. Kelly Ostrowski: I've been in the field of child welfare for almost 22 years now and it's not a very empowering system--or the perception is that it's not. So many of our young people would not knock on their door for service because there's that underlying fear that their kids are going to be taken away. Many of them have been raised through the system themselves, so why should they trust it?

    Over the long run, what's making a difference are voluntary grassroots organizations where there's that element of trust, as you said, and there are meaningful relationships and those kinds of things.

    If I use the example of the facility I work in, I have double staff around the clock and children live there for a couple of days, a couple of hours, several months, or sometimes a couple of years. Some of the staff are developing more significant lifelong relationships because they are more strengths-focussed and family-focussed in their work.

    In individual relationships you see people change, grow, and develop. That's what we see. It hasn't been put into any statistical format, but we know what works: significant, meaningful, family-centred kinds of approaches.

    Ms. Nadine Egler-Wiome: I think the approach that works is the one where you focus on empowering and not enabling; where you help people build from where they are and develop their self-esteem, so they can do some of these things themselves; where you help show them they do have the stuff within them to go out.

    It's not so much reaching out for--pardon the term--services, as for the assistance, guidance, and support so they can find a way to build up their own futures and take care of their own children and families themselves. It's not going to be a crutch, where they will continually have to go back to services for an extended period of time, but where they learn and find a way to get out of that system and do it on their own.

»  (1705)  

    The Chair: There's a very useful linguistic distinction between enabling, which suggests dependency, and empowering.

    I must say it's been a great afternoon having you here. I think we had a terrific setup with Senator Pearson, and now we will move from the broad to the specific.

    Thank you for your participation.

    Members, we shall start considering what all this means next week. So thank you very much.

    This session is now adjourned.