SCYR Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Children and Youth at Risk of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, March 26, 2003

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1525

The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.))

Mr. Leslie Nelson (Community Coordinator, BC Federation of Aboriginal Foster Parents)

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1535

The Chair

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1540

Ms. Cindy Blackstock (Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada)

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1545

The Chair

Ms. Virginia Blackplume (Assistant Executive Director, Mother Bear Consulting)

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1550

The Chair

Ms. Virginia Blackplume

The Chair

Ms. Virginia Blackplume

The Chair

Ms. Virginia Blackplume

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1555

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Leslie Nelson

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1600

Mr. Larry Spencer

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Mr. Larry Spencer

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Mr. Larry Spencer

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1605

Mr. Leslie Nelson

The Chair

Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP)

Ms. Cindy Blackstock

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1610

Ms. Wendy Lill

Ms. Cindy Blackstock

Ms. Wendy Lill

Ms. Cindy Blackstock

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1615

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Leslie Nelson

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Leslie Nelson

The Chair

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CANADA

Subcommittee on Children and Youth at Risk of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

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NUMBER 010

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, March 26, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1525)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.)): Let me formally begin the meeting by saying we're potentially pressed for time because there may well be votes...depending on who's winning the bet.

    How much is our bet for, Mr. Spencer? Two dollars, yes. Mr. Spencer and I are betting on whether it's going to be a 30-minute bell before we have to be there, in which case we'll be able to--

    A voice: That's pretty high.

    The Chair: --or a 15-minute bell. I think we can count on our colleagues in the House of Commons to keep talking. They've never been known not to before, so we may have more time than we know.

    We are also deficient in the witness department to the tune of one, as far as I can judge, who has come from, or we hope has come from, Edmonton, Tracey Stevens from Mother Bear Consulting. Because of our pressure of time, we will begin.

    Let me set the scene for you. I know you've had a letter from the clerk. This committee decided some time ago that it would actually start to focus on issues concerning aboriginal children. We have the whole mandate of children and youth at risk and we've done other things. We now see, I guess, a triad of reports. Originally we were going to have a quadrilateral of reports--if that's a word--a quartet of reports.

    The first one was on aboriginal children on reserve from age zero to 6. That came out in June. We made two big recommendations. They were very successful. We had a good response from the government, so we are very cheered by that.

    As you will have heard, this middle report is on aboriginal children, really from conception, to be accurate, through to age 12, in urban settings. We've done a little juggling from probably the time we first got in touch with you. We've understood that it's a huge topic and to do it justice we must focus, initially at least, on urban aboriginal kids.

    I guess our last report will be going back, as it were, to on-reserve age 6 to age 12. So we're covering the urban aboriginal kids in one go.

    By June, we hope we will be able to come up with a series of recommendations. Even at this stage--I think we're still at the gathering information stage--we realize that the federal government is not the only player in Canada's cities, but we are a player. To the extent that it is possible that we can be more effective with other partners, we are looking to you for ideas on how to do that.

    With that introduction, let me welcome you both. I guess the batting order is more or less as it appears. We'll go with what we've got here. Since Leslie Nelson's name appears first, perhaps you would like to begin. We will then move on to Ms. Blackstock, and then move into questions for as much time as the people in the other place allow us.

    Mr. Nelson, welcome.

    Mr. Leslie Nelson (Community Coordinator, BC Federation of Aboriginal Foster Parents): Thank you very much.

    My presentation is on identified problems for services to aboriginal children off reserve, zero to 12 years old.

    The first is a compromised neighbourhood network to watch over the children when families move off the reserve. Off-reserve children are more likely to be taken into care. Off-reserve children experience greater discrimination. Parents of children off reserve have little parenting skills and less support for newborn and preschool children.

    Off-reserve families experience isolation, resulting in low self-esteem, lack of purpose, confusion of cultural identity and pride, and they are often confronted with situations of discrimination.

    There is a lack of mental health services; a lack of case management; inconsistent services due to migrant social worker staff who are providing services to isolated areas; a lack of in-home support for biological parents, and the support that does reach these parents is often delivered with the attitude that if children are not in care, the family is doing okay. There is no advocacy for families who are facing child apprehension. Agencies provide limited services due to lack of moneys to expand their client base. There is no child advocacy. The child advocacy office is closed and the Ministry of Children and Family Development now professes to provide child advocate services. This is not truly possible since most issues and concerns are with regard to their own ministry workers.

    There are no services for youth with mental health issues. Some agencies are telling foster parents that children in care cannot have counselling, regardless of assessment.

    There is a shortage of resources to address issues. There is a removal of funds from family support and child protection--in the Port Alberni region, that amounts to a staff cut from 30 to 7. In 2002, there was an overall cut of 23% to the funding of the Ministry of Children and Family Development and a projected cut of 23% more in the year 2003.

    The MCFD have an apparent insufficient response to FAS/FAE and a lack of action on their own plan. There is no respite for biological families. There are no resources that prevent children from ending up in care or becoming at risk. There is a lack of funding to provide initiatives that can provide healing for biological parents and aboriginal children. Foster parents are provided with ample moneys to care for children while they're in care, but that money is not available for biological families when the child is returned home. MCFD refuses to designate the fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, as is done in Alberta. There is a lack of family treatment programs. There is a lack of a decent aboriginal-focused employment strategy. There is a lack of support for young women at risk, including unplanned pregnancies. There is a lack of housing for pregnant or parenting teens that encourages and supports alcohol and drug-free lifestyles. Funding has been cut from the women's centre for meaningful programs.

    Mental health services are not available for children diagnosed with FAS/FAE, ADD, ADHD, ODD conduct disorders. Fifty per cent of clients are aboriginal children; 25 of 34 aboriginal children began accessing services when they were under the age of 12. Most clients have lost contact with biological families at two years or less. Most children in the mental health services experience multiple placements within the child care system. Common problems are: reactive attachment disorder, comprised cognitive ability, impulsivity, and a lack of regular home structure providing regulation.

    Isolated communities do not have pediatricians or good-quality doctors, endangering the wellness of infants. A point in case is Masset, Haida Gwaii. Biological families have to register children as “at risk” before they can access child care subsidized programs. The downtown east side of Vancouver has the lowest income, identified by postal code, in Canada. The aboriginal headstart program hosted by the Vancouver Native Health Society in that district had funding cut outright.

    This government must respond to these problems with more dollars. Any response that does not include an increase in funding will ignore the issues and continue to place aboriginal children and families at risk of further harm. These problems are real and cannot be addressed without greater funds for programs and social initiatives, such as improved housing, food programs for schools, better trained social workers and medical staff, and adoption of a national child care strategy, to name a few items.

    Canada is ranked sixth highest in the world for child poverty. This amounts to criminal negligence, and the problem is greater in the aboriginal community.

    Recommendations.

    Increase funding to centralized community centres such as the aboriginal friendship centres to develop and provide culturally appropriate programs for off-reserve single parents and low-income families. Develop more alcohol and drug treatment centres for aboriginal communities where aboriginal families are concentrated. Fund aboriginal control of and operation of drug treatment centres that provide a holistic approach to healing, with an emphasis on culture and heritage. Increase child care subsidies for low-income families and single parents. Respite and relief is needed for single parents and families who have children diagnosed with disabilities. Establish and fund an agency that can provide assistance to families seeking housing in rural areas.

    Community support in the form of family services: training in homemaker, social worker, and life skills for first nations people who want to enter into the field of social services; development of an initiative that can work with foster families and biological families to reunite children with their birth parents and siblings; advocacy and support for children in care; advocacy and support for families dealing with the issues of child apprehension, especially with the Ministry of Children and Family Development.

    Identify a strategy to provide counselling services, particularly for children in care. Give clarity to social workers on programs and services for children in care. Adopt a national children's agenda with the addition of decent, affordable housing for low-income and single-parent families.

    Accepted directions of the Canadian Policy Research Network: Formulate and adopt a policy that states specifically that family healing should be supported as a first response. Child poverty must first be recognized as an issue and seen as a solvable issue. Implement a national day care program that provides subsidies based on family income. Develop a flexible mental health intervention strategy to recognize FAS/FAE, ADD, ADHD, ODD, and other learning disabilities as recoverable illnesses. Increase funding to encourage qualified medical expertise to provide services to isolated communities. Increase funding for low-income families and families with developmentally delayed children to provide them with transportation to services and resources.

    Get better doctors in isolated communities. Improve guidelines that help families access child care subsidies. Respite and relief is needed for parents of special needs children and single parents. Subsidize medication and nutritional diets for special needs children. Increase access to tutorial support for low-income families. Provide food programs for children in schools. Increase children's programs, such as sports, arts, music, life skills, recreation, computer, etc.

    Counselling services are required that focus on healing for aboriginal children and families. There should be equal family payments for biological and foster families. There should be a universal child care strategy. There should be dietary allowances. Reinstate funding to the Vancouver Native Health Society for the aboriginal headstart program in the downtown east side of Vancouver. Increase the funding for the downtown east side aboriginal headstart program so that it can include proper nutrition and life skills programming for young, low-income, and single-parent families.

    Institute a national agenda to recognize and provide services to and for FAS/FAE children. Provide clearer communication between government initiatives and the community. Employment in the field of child welfare must be a paid service and not reliant on volunteerism, as being implemented by the provincial Government of British Columbia.

    That ends my presentation.

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    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    Just a word of explanation for the other members, because I have the advantage of having part of the presentation you gave. At the beginning Mr. Nelson gave a number of bullets that represented the views of different people in the community. If there was a certain element of repetition it was because he was making the same point but with different people. That may make matters a bit clearer.

    I suspect the recommendations you read out were from the same people, so they were also in sequence. That's why one heard, for example, two calls for a national child care strategy, which we might say we've made a modest start at with the last budget and with the recently signed agreement.

    I also want to welcome Virginia Blackplume. You can either maintain a distance from Mr. Nelson or sit beside him. Do whatever you like. Welcome to the table. I don't know whether you know each other or even like each other, but that's another issue.

    We'll now move on to Cindy Blackstock.

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    Ms. Cindy Blackstock (Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you, committee members, for the invitation to present at this important commission.

    I'll begin by citing some of the documents we've handed out. We've handed out a copy of the national policy review, which was authored by the Assembly of First Nations and the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. It's there for your reference.

    My presentation will be based on my speaking notes with the logo of the crow on the front. In the interest of brevity I'm going to skip past the mission and mandate of our organization to say that we're the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada. We represent the 125 first nation child welfare agencies located throughout the country, providing policy research and networking support to those communities.

    In reviewing some of the challenges for children and youth, we were going to present this within our specialized framework, which is in the area of the child and the family. But we'd like to emphasize that we feel there is a real call for an interdisciplinary type of response, as the impacts of colonization are multi-dimensional and multi-generational.

    Just to highlight some of the current concerns about child welfare, although there is inconsistent data among the provinces and territories, many of the honoured committee members have probably already heard that the provinces do not collect child welfare data in the same manner or using the same definitions. Therefore, we do not have accurate estimates as to the numbers of aboriginal children in the care system at this time.

    Based on best knowledge and interviews with provincial and territorial representatives, we believe that 40% of the 65,000 children in care currently in this country are of aboriginal origin. In provinces such as Manitoba, this reaches an astonishing figure of 78%. Although trend data is not available for off reserve, we know from our on-reserve statistics provided by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada that from 1995 to 2001, there has been a 71.5% increase in the number of status Indian children entering the child welfare system.

    I'd like to emphasize here that we are talking about the child welfare system. And of course there is a disproportionate representation of aboriginal youth within the incarceration system in Canada as well. That does not include those figures.

    In terms of stemming the tide of these children going into care, we feel there is a real call for holistic and interdependent culturally based services that are intended to ameliorate risk for children and maintain them in their family homes. These are known under various provincial child welfare statutes as least disruptive measures of targeted prevention services.

    An examination of those types of resources nationwide demonstrates that very few of those targeted prevention services delivered to aboriginal children and youth are culturally based or culturally appropriate, despite the high disproportionate number of aboriginal children and youth in the care system.

    It's critical that these programs be designed and run by people who understand the languages, cultures, and traditions of those they are helping. Unfortunately, the knowledge level of Canadians in general about aboriginal history and Canadian history is less than we would hope. Without that type of knowledge, it makes it very difficult for them to meet the needs of diverse aboriginal children and youth.

    The definitions of status and non-status, as you've heard from other presenters, and the on-reserve and off-reserve boundaries established by the Government of Canada continue to create unnecessary boundaries and barriers in service delivery. Too often, services are provided on the basis of where a client happens to reside versus what is in the best interest of that child and that youth in the family.

    We need more appropriate transition services for families moving on reserve and off reserve. We need to ensure there's a quality and equity in the services, regardless of where the first nations or aboriginal person happens to live within the country. That of course is consistent with Canada's commitment in “A World Fit for Children”.

    One of our final points is around the voluntary sector. Research indicates that the voluntary sector in Canada provides critical child, youth, and family supports. The research papers we have reviewed thus far show that those services are very rarely provided to the aboriginal community.

    The aboriginal reference group of the voluntary sector initiative has called for greater recognition by government and the philanthropic community of traditional forms of civic engagement, and also for greater collaboration between child-, youth-, and family-serving voluntary sector organizations and first nations and aboriginal child and family service providers.

    I'd like to stress we're talking about really affirming in a very critical way the capacity of aboriginal people to look after their own children, regardless of residency. There needs to be an implementation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, along with the recommendations specific to children.

    If we continue to try to deal with the issues of aboriginal children and youth by simply dealing with the services that manage symptomatic versus etiological causes, we'll be sitting here in another 30 years with those tragic numbers before us.

    I would encourage commission members in their recommendations to ensure that this comprehensive strategy be implemented that ensures all provinces and territories and first nations and aboriginal child care providers are keeping accurate and consistent data on the numbers of aboriginal children.

    Services should be designed and delivered pursuant to a community development framework that is designed and implemented by aboriginal peoples to address the multi-dimensional and multi-generational impacts of colonization.

    There should be a focused and sustained commitment by the Government of Canada to implement the substantive recommendations of RCAP, as the current lack of progress has impacts for aboriginal youth and children.

    Focused and sustained investment in supporting aboriginal concepts of civic engagement is required while developing the tools and knowledge necessary to promote collaboration between the voluntary sector and aboriginal communities.

    Recognition of the expertise of aboriginal child and family service providers is acknowledged. I was speaking in Kamloops to a first nations child and family service agency provider, and he noted that in the 44 years the province provided child welfare services in that area, they established only two aboriginal foster homes. In the three years since a first nations child welfare agency was formed, they've been successful in establishing well over 100 foster homes. So it's a testament to the type of success that can be achieved when governance is transferred to aboriginal people.

    There is also a need for additional focus programs targeted to aboriginal children and youth in the roll-out of universal programs. Too often programs are geared to fit the needs of all Canadian children while failing to address the inequities and the unique cultural context of aboriginal children and youth. Thus inequities arise out of the equal treatment of unequals.

    Our seventh point is on assisting government in the decision-making process. We recommend a special adviser on aboriginal children and youth be appointed to assist the great works of Senator Landon Pearson at the Prime Minister's Office and at the Privy Council Office to support progressive and responsive government policy recommendations.

    That completes my presentation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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    The Chair: Thank you very much for the very useful and detailed recommendations.

    Now we'll move to Virginia Blackplume, and we welcome Ms. Lill.

    Virginia Blackplume is from Mother Bear Consulting. I feel like papa bear up here. She's the assistant executive director.

    I'd just like to say to our recent arrivals, Ms. Lill and Ms. Blackplume, we don't know exactly when, but a vote is coming. Depending on whether you're going to bet with Spencer or Godfrey, the vote will either have a 15-minute bell or a 30-minute bell. I'm an optimist. I'm arguing for 30 minutes. If we get constrained in the questions, you will understand.

    Welcome, and I'm glad you're here.

    Ms. Virginia Blackplume (Assistant Executive Director, Mother Bear Consulting) As you know, I'm representing Mother Bear, and we are based in Edmonton, Alberta. We are a placement resource for aboriginal children from first nation and Métis communities, particularly from the northern Alberta reserves and settlements. The children in our care all have child welfare status. We operate a number of group homes, and we emphasize the children's cultural needs.

    In our presentation today, what I would like to address are basic needs, how they are met and how they affect children in that age category, or in any children. As you know, the number of children living off reserve who have child welfare status is extremely high. In Edmonton in 2000, over 60% of open child welfare files were for aboriginal children, many of whom have permanent guardianship status.

    I guess the difficulty with basic needs is how they are defined. There's a discrepancy between how the provincial governments meet the basic needs of a child in foster care versus a child at home. Basic needs are shelter, food, and clothing. For a family on social assistance, the moneys they get on a monthly basis are inadequate to meet all their needs. A family of a single parent with two children gets under about $1,000 a month.

    Under the Child Welfare Act, a parent who is unable or unwilling to meet the basic needs of the child is reason enough to apprehend that child and to place them in care. When a child is placed in care, the moneys to meet their basic needs, excluding shelter, are dramatically increased. The foster care rate calculated on a per diem basis in Alberta is about $483 for one child between ages zero and 6, which doesn't include their shelter. This rate is only to meet their food and clothing needs.

¹  (1550)  

    The Chair: Sorry, just to be clear, that's a rate per what?

    Ms. Virginia Blackplume: It's per child per month.

    For a child aged zero to 6, it's roughly about $16.10 a day to meet their needs, with the foster family receiving about $483 per month.

    The Chair: Sorry, $483 a month versus how much a month?

    Ms. Virginia Blackplume: For a single parent of two children, it's about $800-something to meet their shelter, food, and clothing needs.

    The Chair: Okay. All right.

    Ms. Virginia Blackplume: With the monthly cost, I guess the issue is that the definition of basic needs changes. When a child is in care, their basic needs are defined differently than when a parent has the child. So aboriginal children off reserve are more likely than non-aboriginal children to be apprehended for socio-economic reasons. The question for us is why does a foster home receive more money for basic needs, excluding shelter, than the child's natural parents?

    A related aspect is that the mother in the foster family is encouraged to stay at home to provide the child with a stable and secure environment, while the biological mother is encouraged to seek employment and/or education out of the home. If she is unable to secure employment or to gain entrance into an education program, the biological mother is viewed as unmotivated and as wanting to stay on assistance--even if her reason for staying at home is to take care of her children to provide them with some sense of home and family.

    The quality of life for a child in care is greatly improved because the government or the child welfare systems provide for their recreational and psychological needs, but these same moneys are not provided to the child when the child is in the care of its parents.

    The other aspect concerning basic needs and the amount of placement resources available is that much emphasis is given to placing children with extended family. In Alberta, there's a program called Caring Family, which is for extended family members who can take a child who comes into care. However, Caring Family rates are also different, which makes it difficult for some family members to be able to take their own relatives, because they just don't get the money needed to help support that child. The Caring Family rate in Alberta is $320. They are expected to provide the same service to a child placed in their care that a foster parent, who gets training, is required to do. So there is a disadvantage in the amount of money provided to meet basic needs in child care family placement, which exceeds the advantages to the child. As you can see, the rates for meeting the child's basic needs vary.

    A lot of these children end up in the foster care system in non-aboriginal homes. They are removed from their own culture and families, and some of them find it very difficult to return to their home communities, or even to their own people, whether off reserve or on reserve.

    When you are looking for placement resources for children, the other related challenge is the jurisdictional funding issue, which becomes a practical challenge for the social worker in placing children with a family. When a child is in care and there is an extended family living on reserve who can take the child, there is the whole issue of the money involved in providing for the basic needs of that child. Provincial systems do not have any processes in place to allow for money to be transferred to the reserve, because that's Indian Affairs' territory. So there's always this jurisdictional issue when you're trying to find a placement for a child but you can't find one, because the money cannot go to the reserve. The reserve won't take the file because there are no moneys going to them from the provincial systems. So because of funding issues, the child is then stuck off reserve, even when there's a family who can take the child.

    One of the things that needs to happen is discussion between the provincial and federal systems on how to transfer money to meet the needs of children, particularly aboriginal children who come off reserves and who can go back to their home community.

    Because of the nature of our organization, we recognize that there is a need for specialized placement. As you are aware, many of our aboriginal children have some kind of alcohol-related birth defect and have a high incidence of learning disabilities. One of the things we have in place is what we call a fetal alcohol home, where we are training the staff and gathering knowledge in this area of providing better services to children with special needs. A lot of the aboriginal children who are coming to us have great needs, and we're finding that a majority of them have fetal alcohol syndrome. So we are trying to address this need by developing resources. But again, we also need funding to help us provide for more specialized needs.

    I thank you for listening. That concludes my presentation.

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    The Chair: Thank you, not only for your presentation, but also to all the rest of you and to those who have come a great distance. We appreciate it.

    Mr. Spencer.

    Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance): I'm hearing some upsetting things.

    I'll start at the beginning with Mr. Nelson. You had quite an extensive list or detailed list of funding needs, which might have been addressed by the amount we passed last night in the House of $17 billion. You and I know, of course, that money doesn't answer every problem, but we also know that the lack of money creates a lot of problems.

    You mentioned funding cuts. I'd like to hear specifically who made the cuts? Were they provincial or federal cuts? What cuts are you referring to specifically?

    Mr. Leslie Nelson Our experience in reference to the cuts made by the provincial government to the Ministry of Children and Family Development is that in this last year, 2002, the cuts amounted to 23% of the budget for children, for child welfare, being cut, and then again in the year 2003--the fiscal year begins on April 1--that funding will be cut another 23%.

º  (1600)  

    Mr. Larry Spencer: So this is related to your provincial government more than to our federal government. Does your financial plight in Vancouver relate to the fact that you have a high number of aboriginal people and you are getting a lower percentage of the funding per capita than what's being given outside of Vancouver? Is that a true statement?

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: No, I wouldn't agree with that at this point. I think the cuts have been across the board to the entire child welfare ministry.

    I have an item here that refers to the funding that is provided by Health Canada for activities of the division of childhood and adolescence in the population and public health branch with regard to off-reserve aboriginal children and their families. It states here that the annual budget for the program is $35 million, which includes a recent expansion of $12.5 million under the early childhood development strategy for first nations and other aboriginal children.

    This was where the funding cut to the aboriginal headstart program in the downtown east side had happened. It was in this department, and that's federal.

    Mr. Larry Spencer: You mentioned also family healing programs. Could you list, off the top of your head, some of the things that you would like to see expanded, or increased, or added as family healing programs?

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: That's an extremely important item that we recognize as essential for aboriginal people, the family healing program. The view from the aboriginal perspective is a holistic view that addresses the emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and physical healing of an individual, so it encompasses the entire being of a person.

    We would be looking at healing that was directed at drug and alcohol treatment centres with an emphasis on culture and heritage. Also, we would be looking at holistic healing in the areas of FAS/FAE, ADDA, ADHD, ODD, and other learning disabilities.

    In my personal experience, having looked at a lot of different numbers and knowing of a lot of specific people who have ended up in the prison system, a lot of them have gone through the child welfare system as being in care. The numbers are very high, although I don't have those numbers with me, and I don't think there has ever been a study done as to how many children who go through care end up in prison.

    However, a lot of the children end up with severe social and economic problems that lead to that eventual place.

    Mr. Larry Spencer Would you think a part of this increased family healing program would fit into that aspect you mentioned about training aboriginal social workers? Were you thinking of some sort of specialized training designed specifically for the aboriginal community rather than mainstreaming through universities and colleges, something like the type of special schooling we do for carpenters and mechanics and that sort of thing? Are you suggesting we should consider a whole other level of training for aboriginal social workers?

º  (1605)  

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: My response is that the communities have to be specifically involved in identifying the training, as you can't make one program that fits all the aboriginal communities across the country. You have west coast first nations, whose cultural practices differ from nation to nation and from region to region. Alberta Plains Indians' cultural practices also differ. That response would have to come from the community. The coastal tribes generally have log houses that provide for holistic healing, whereas other nations have sweat lodges and other ceremonies that would be included in this type of development.

    The Chair: Thank you.

[Translation]

    For now, Mr. Gagnon misses his turn.

    Mrs. Lill.

[English]

    Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Thank you.

    I want to apologize for being late. I had to give a speech in the House of Commons. I'll have the opportunity to read your reports and your statements to us.

    We've had the very great but, I must say, very upsetting opportunity to hear from many presenters around the issues of aboriginal children living in the city. The statistics we're hearing and the conditions we're hearing about are astounding and very concerning.

    I just want to ask you some questions about the issue of FAS and FAE. We have heard here, and I've heard in other places, that there are real barriers for aboriginal women--any women really--but I have heard specifically about aboriginal women really being unable for many reasons to get the kind of assistance they need before a birth. It may be that they're afraid of the baby's apprehension by child welfare if they're seeking assistance around alcoholism, or there may be a lack of availability of treatment, a lack of resources to enable women to have treatment. I'd just like any comments on that.

    Is this a problem you're battling? It's clearly where the problem starts and has to be addressed, and I know women want to address it. I was just wondering if you could shed any light on that.

    Ms. Cindy Blackstock: I'll just highlight two success stories. One is that the first nations child and family service agencies in New Brunswick have worked along with health authorities, health officials, to develop a holistic and comprehensive response for fetal alcohol syndrome, including the revisiting of the tools used to assess fetal alcohol syndrome and respond to it. I would just recommend committee members look at that as an example.

    The other is West Region Child and Family Services in Manitoba. They were beginning the work of looking at how to turn the tide of fetal alcohol syndrome by providing women in the community information about prevention and also opening up the opportunity for them to access those services. When they sat together as a committee, they realized very quickly that simply going out to community members and providing them information about fetal alcohol syndrome was not enough. This is because in order to talk about fetal alcohol syndrome we need to talk about addictions, and in order to talk about addictions we need to talk about multi-generational grief resulting from colonization.

    Instead, they decided to develop a program around a cultural way of knowing that is called the story stick model. Very briefly put, there are a series of willows, and you would have things on the table and a community of women, and you would tell your life story by the way you would decorate that willow. You would choose one that struck you, for whatever reason, and you would begin at one end and continue your life story through to the end of that stick, using whatever types of things were on the table.

    For many of these women it was the first time they could piece the pieces of their life story together. It was the first time they could have a community of sharing of materials and conversation while they were telling their life story. But the choice of whether that would be a public or a private statement was theirs.

    The women were extremely engaged in it. They found it very fulfilling, and at the end of the two days they were asked to share their story stick as much as they would choose to share or not. What was astounding about the process in West Region was that many of the women who chose to share their stories for the first time were women who had rejected all other types of intervention.

    One woman who had a significant, horrific history got up in front of the group and said, “You know, this dark part of my story stick, well, I'm not able to share that, but this yellow piece, that's the day my daughter was born, and I'd like to tell you about that day.” That was the first time she was able to make that commitment and then hook into support systems around addictions. They then followed that up with support services for addictions counselling, with information on fetal alcohol syndrome, with prenatal care, etc., and found the women were much more engaged.

    Those types of excellent examples are saying that we need to start where community members are at in terms of receiving that information in order to create safe conditions, so they're open and responsive to the material coming forward and therefore able to really make a go at preventing these types of outcome for kids.

º  (1610)  

    Ms. Wendy Lill: That's just amazing and wonderful to hear about. Your expression “multi-generational grief resulting from colonization” is a very eloquent statement and one that will stay with us.

    I think this idea of the story stick project in the West Region is exciting. One of the questions I was going to ask was, what kind of money is available for that kind of model to be used across the country? I think there's new money right now. I think the Government of Canada has put some new money into FAE and FAS, but what does that mean? Is that going to actually find its way into very creative and healing projects such as this, in your estimation, and how can we make sure it does?

    Ms. Cindy Blackstock: I think one of the key pieces will be the criteria upon which that money is based. If there is an opportunity to have community-designed and -implemented programs, then I think you'll see the kind of exciting outcomes you saw in New Brunswick and in West Region Child and Family Services.

    If, however, there are a significant number of standards or a presupposition about what an appropriate program might look like, i.e. in terms of achievable outcomes we want to see, x number of pamphlets delivered, or whatever, then I think that in the end will restrict the efficacy of these types of programs.

    I would also encourage that there be some thought given to how the money will flow through. For example, as many of you know, in terms of provincial transfer payments, much of that money goes into general revenues, and we then all hope it ends up in targeted types of aboriginal services. However, there's no accountability for many of these dollars back to the federal government. I would hope to see those funds go directly to the aboriginal community versus through a federal-provincial transfer payment system.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: That's very important for us to know and to keep an eye on in terms of finding out what kinds of rules and regulations are in place for the program and the initiatives the government has announced. Also, the whole issue of how money flows through is always a big problem and a puzzle.

    I have one more question, if you don't mind. I also sit on the committee for persons with disabilities, and I have heard that women who give birth to children with disabilities and who live in remote regions or on reserves really have no choice but to leave. Just in terms of getting the kind of care they need, they have to leave their communities, their homes, and then they have to move into the city. I'd like comments on that.

    People are doubly penalized for having a child with a disability. That, in my estimation, is not a negative proposition, but in many ways they're facing the grief of leaving their communities and the support systems they have, and they're also finding themselves in an absolutely new place trying to advocate for a vulnerable person in their life. So if you could, please comment on that.

    Ms. Cindy Blackstock: As an opening, I'd note that we actually are going to be doing a study of children with disabilities in the care of first nations child welfare agencies, and in preparation for that I've conducted an extensive literature review.

    Regrettably, we can confirm your suspicions that many people are moving off reserve in order to access services. In many cases, it's just fundamental things such as that many reserves don't have paved roads. So for persons with wheelchair or movement disabilities, it can be very difficult.

    There is a story of a young woman who is in a community that's only accessible by ferry and planes around Vancouver Island, and in order to get up the stairs in her house she has to use her hands because she's a paraplegic. There are no moneys available for a wheelchair lift, and for the last 19 years that's how she's made it up to her upstairs bedroom.

    Some of the things we will be looking at are, one, to what degree are there culturally based services for persons with disabilities? Second, what are the issues of access? We've heard from a lot of our first nations child welfare agencies that some community members living in remote areas--I know that's not a focus here--actually have to hitchhike out in order to get to services because many of our families are impoverished and don't have access to a motor vehicle. The third piece we will be looking at is, what are the ranges of disabilities, and what were the traditional concepts of disability, and how might we strengthen those services and people's access to service in that piece?

    I'd be pleased to provide you with the research citations regarding your question if that would be helpful for you.

º  (1615)  

    Ms. Wendy Lill: That would be wonderful.

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: I would like to take the chance to build on some of the observations that we have witnessed in the province of B.C. The provincial government has implemented a policy that all people with disabilities have to resubmit applications to prove they have a disability. That document is in excess of 20 pages long. And the people who have disabilities are being asked to resubmit an application for disability benefits by filling out this document while services to them are being cut.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: I need to know, is this the disability tax credit or is it something else?

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: It is the disability benefits. It's not the tax benefits.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: So where is this happening?

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: In the province of B.C.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: This is all persons with disabilities in the province of B.C. who are undergoing this?

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: A review of their disabilities.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: All right. That's incredible.

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: It is.

    Ms. Wendy Lill: Just incredible.

    Mr. Leslie Nelson: As incredible as it is, it is happening.

    The Chair: I'm afraid I'm going to have to intervene.

    I have two bits of bad news to announce. First, I hate losing a bet to Mr. Spencer, but he was right. We only have 15 minutes.

    If you look behind you, you may feel this odd sensation that the lights are going on and off, and indeed they are. That tells us that there is a vote coming at around 4:30. You're not dreaming and the light is not broken.

    It's very frustrating for us to have to rush off and vote, and then if you knew how long we're going to be there you'd know it's really frustrating. Let me attempt to pull a few thoughts together, simply because I think it's important for our own thinking that we take advantage of what you've told us.

    Among the questions you raise, one of the things--and you may want to write back with the answers--is to what extent are the situations you're describing unique to aboriginal people or to what extent are they generic? In other words, when we're looking at children in care and children who are being taken in by family services, what are the disincentives to support families as opposed to the incentives to reward foster parents and all that sort of thing? I assume this is a generic problem that is accentuated by the specific socio-economic challenges a lot of first nations people face. I'm assuming that is the case.

    Our challenge is going to be--and Mr. Nelson gave us a long list of things to think about--to sort out the things that are beyond our...you know, that old prayer that God give us the strength to do the things we can, to recognize the things we can't, and to understand the difference. That's it for federal-provincial relations.

    We can't stop the Government of British Columbia from doing whatever crazy thing it may do in terms of reducing spending by 23% this year and 23% next year. And we shouldn't compensate them for that. That would be a reward for bad behaviour. It's one of the challenges we've had in all of our family and children's strategies, to reward good behaviour and not bail out governments for bad behaviour, if I may put it so harshly. So we're going to have difficulty.

    I think the sorts of examples Ms. Blackstock was giving us about what can be done are very helpful. I suspect as a little committee we're not going to be able to make the federal government institute the royal commission's recommendations or solve the housing problems of Canada and all the rest of it. What we can do is point out obvious flaws where government programs are working against the best interests of the people they're trying to help, or where they're in conflict with each other, as we discovered on reserve. That we can do.

    We might be able also to encourage--and I'd like you to take these thoughts with you and reflect on them--as we did in our on reserve, zero to 6 report.... We said on the one level, to the federal government, get your act together, and try to get it together, by the way, with all the other players, of which there are many. And there are more when you think of urban aboriginal kids, because there's the aboriginal community itself, the municipalities, the provinces, and ourselves. With no one willing to take the lead on this, it's much trickier than it was even on reserve, which is problematic enough.

    We also said we ought to set up some...I won't say model communities or best practices, but some pilot projects that would show us what it would be like if we could actually get it together. I like the good news stories. I think it's hugely important that we remember the bad news, but we would drive ourselves crazy if that's all we knew about. So we need to stay in touch with you, to refine your thinking on the part that is clearly ours, where we can, through some kind of creativity, some kind of catalytic action, get the players together to coordinate their efforts--recognizing that we're not masters of the provincial governments at the end of the day. We do what we can.

    On that attempt to summarize, at least from my own mind, some of the things I've drawn from your evidence, and with the hope that we can stay in touch and the apology that we have to skedaddle and set a new land record to get to the House of Commons to vote, we thank you for coming and we apologize for the things over which we have no control.

    Thank you so much.