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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Tuesday, September 30, 2003
| ¿ | 0915 |
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The Clerk of the Committee |
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The Honourable Gilbert Normand (Bellechasse—Etchemins—Montmagny—L'Islet, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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The Clerk |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Clerk |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.) |
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Hon. Gilbert Normand |
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The Clerk |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair (Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.)) |
| ¿ | 0925 |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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Hon. Gilbert Normand |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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Hon. Gilbert Normand |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte (Edmonton Southwest, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Chair |
| ¿ | 0930 |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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Mr. Dan Shaw (Committee Researcher) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
| ¿ | 0935 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brian Masse |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brian Masse |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brian Masse |
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The Chair |
| ¿ | 0940 |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin, Lib.) |
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Mr. Brian Masse |
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Mr. Brent St. Denis |
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Mr. Brian Masse |
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Mr. Brent St. Denis |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brent St. Denis |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Brent St. Denis |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
| ¿ | 0945 |
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Mr. Paul Crête |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology |
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EVIDENCE
Tuesday, September 30, 2003
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¿ 
(0915)
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum, so we can now proceed to the election of the chair.
I will accept nominations.
[Translation]
The Honourable Gilbert Normand (Bellechasse—Etchemins—Montmagny—L'Islet, Lib.): I would like to nominate Mr. Walt Lastewka for chairman.
[English]
The Clerk: Is it agreed?
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I'm going to invite the newly elected chair to take his seat after the election of the vice-chairs.
We'll proceed now to the election of the vice-chairs.
Ms. Gallant.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian Alliance): I'd like to nominate James Rajotte for the position of vice-chair.
The Clerk: Is it agreed?
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: Now we have the vice-chair on the government side.
Mr. Bagnell.
Mr. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): I nominate Dan McTeague.
[Translation]
Hon. Gilbert Normand: I nominate Brent St. Denis.
[English]
The Clerk: We have another nomination, of Brent St. Denis. Are there any other nominations?
So we have two candidates, Mr. McTeague and Mr. St. Denis, and we must proceed to an election by secret ballot.
My colleague, who is also a clerk from the House of Commons, will be assisting me in this.
I'll explain the process to be followed here. Each side of the table will be given ballots. You can indicate your choice between Mr. McTeague and Mr. St. Denis on your ballot. If no member receives a majority, then we need to go to a second ballot.
[Translation]
You may drop your ballots in this box.
¿ (0917)
¿ (0923)
The Clerk: Mr. McTeague will be the second vice-chair.
[English]
I would invite Mr. Lastewka to take the chair now.
The Chair (Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.)): First of all, let me see if I can call this meeting to order.
Thank you very much for your confidence, and congratulations to the two vice-chairs. I understand Mr. McTeague is stopped at an airport in Toronto. Something happened with his plane, and that's way he isn't here.
The item we have to look at next is our future business calendar. I did work from our last meeting a little bit with the clerk to try to frame what we're going to have. I was looking at having a future business meeting tomorrow, but a number of the people who aren't here are not available. So our regular meeting dates, I understand, are Tuesday morning and Thursday morning from 9 until 11.
I wanted to at least pass out a proposed calendar. We're still having to call people to appear in front of the committee--Mr. Legault. I'll just ask the clerk whether she has received a confirmation.
¿ (0925)
The Clerk: I'm still waiting on a reply.
The Chair: So we're still waiting on a reply from Mr. Legault. We've tried a number of times, but we'll just keep trying. I'm passing around an agenda, which we'll discuss on Thursday morning. So we'll do future business on Thursday morning at 9 o'clock.
Basically, what we wanted to do is to get Mr. Legault early because of the urgency, but there seems to be a problem. We're going to have to schedule maybe two items until we get that resolved. Our thought was that on the 7th we would do Mr. Legault or gas prices, one or the other. If Mr. Legault is available, then.... What we're trying to do is have him tell us the date. If he could give us a date, then we'll make some changes.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): I want to point out that Mr. Legault was available in the days following the adoption of the motion. Delays ensued as a result of procedural changes involving meetings dates and the chairmanship.
Mr. Legault recently returned from the Grand Prix event in the United States and I am confident that he will be available shortly. Since there is considerable fallout from this timely issue, I think it would be entirely appropriate to meet with this individual. Most likely we'll know then exactly what conditions need to be met in order for an 18th Grand Prix event to be added. However, we still need get confirmation.
[English]
The Chair: I understand that the clerk, immediately after our motion, tried to get hold of him, and they were playing telephone tag. So we'll let the clerk work it out with Mr. Legault's office.
The other thing is that.... On Mr. Legault?
[Translation]
Hon. Gilbert Normand: Could Mr. Legault come Wednesday afternoon instead of Thursday morning? You put a question mark after his name. I'd like to be here, since this was my suggestion. Thursday morning is pretty much out of the question for me.
[English]
The Chair: I understand there are a number of people from the committee away for Wednesday afternoon. Our regular dates are Tuesday and Thursday morning, and I understand everybody was planning to that. I have the same problem, Mr. Normand, so I'm going to have to be making changes myself. But that's the way it happens.
So we'll wait for Mr. Legault's answer to the clerk.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: It would be interesting to meet with him Wednesday afternoon or at some other time in the not-too-distant future, indeed, at the earliest opportunity, whenever he's available.
[English]
The Chair: You'll have to get unanimous consent, because we have to do the future business first. If it's agreed by the committee that if Mr. Legault is available... You're talking about this Wednesday afternoon, tomorrow.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: Yes, as soon as possible. The committee meets regularly on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Perhaps we could meet with him tomorrow, if he's available.
Hon. Gilbert Normand: According to the newspapers, a final decision about the Grand Prix will be made on Friday October 10. If we meet with Mr. Legault on Thursday, that doesn't leave us much time to react.
Mr. Paul Crête: However, he's scheduled to appear next Tuesday, October 7.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Rajotte, you're one of the ones who are not available Wednesday afternoon, and I know a couple of the other colleagues here are also not available.
Mr. James Rajotte (Edmonton Southwest, Canadian Alliance): I could be available probably on October 8, but I can't be available tomorrow afternoon. But if Mr. Legault can come tomorrow, I don't object to that. I just can't be here.
The Chair: So whoever is here, if he's available, we all agree on that.
Going further on the calendar, the objective was to have Minister Rock here. His timing is such that he would be available on October 9 from 8 a.m. till 10 a.m.--that's 8 a.m., not 9 o'clock--and I advised him of the four items that we talked about: innovation, Kyoto, communications, and CAPC.
The next item is Bill S-13. We should be receiving it in the next two to three weeks. I'm only planning for it there.
So there are two things there. We did say, when we were doing the main estimates, that we wanted to have a discussion amongst ourselves how the main estimates are proposed and how they're reviewed and so forth, but we never did have that meeting, so I'm planning to have that meeting, if at all possible, depending on how long and what Bill S-13 would take.
We'll move the meeting of October 22 to October 23. I will try to avoid having more than two meetings a week if at all possible, since we did a lot of work during the months of January, February, and March last year.
Yes, Mr. Rajotte.
¿ (0930)
Mr. James Rajotte: On Bill S-13, do you know how many witnesses appeared before the Senate on this bill? Maybe the clerk would know. Secondly, have we hinted at some of the genealogy societies to get them prepared for this? I know some of them have contacted me here and in my riding. I think a fair number of people would want to speak to that, though.
Mr. Dan Shaw (Committee Researcher): The Senate had meetings and at least four witnesses appeared and made substantive comments. They have been summarized, and this will eventually be passed to you. There could be four; if there are others, it's unknown to me. It's just a matter of providing a notice to the genealogy society and others who might want to appear.
The Chair: If you have people who have come to you and who want to be part of this when it comes to our committee, you should forward it to the clerk. Then we'll take a look at how many we have and we'll go from there. That's the only one where we might end up having three days to have them all at once and do the bill.
The objective was to get the information that we asked Mr. Shaw to get from our last meeting on the patent medicines. Can I just go through...
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: That's right.
[English]
The Chair: For November, one of the items we had talked about is that we need to hear from the Canadian Bankers Association on small business, on what's happening with loans and so forth. But as a prelude to that, the objective was to have the Canadian Federation of Independent Business appear. They've asked to appear before the committee, and we've put them off a bit. I felt strongly that we should have the CFIB first before we have the bankers association, so we could do it all in one week, all right? It's been a while since we had the Canadian Bankers Association.
The clerk also is looking at trying to get the other ministers on Kyoto. I've just put that in November. I've also put in the Canadian Foundation for Innovation and Technology Partnerships Canada.
Mr. Rajotte, what was the other group we wanted to hear from?
Mr. James Rajotte: On the innovation agenda?
The Chair: No.
Mr. James Rajotte: We do need to do one day on gas prices. I see you have that on the October 7, possibly.
The Chair: It will come to me.
Mr. Crête, did you have a question?
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: If Mr. Legault testifies on October 7, we'll have to put off our discussion on gasoline. I want to be certain that this item is placed on the committee's agenda at some future date, so that this matter isn't forgotten.
At our last meeting, I mentioned that I wanted one session to be set aside for us to discuss Shire and BioChem Pharma. The minister is currently looking into whether Shire fulfilled its obligations on the closure issue. I don't want this matter to be forgotten. Therefore, it should be an item on our future agenda.
Finally, unless I'm mistaken, the minister announced sometime last week that the Patent Act would be amended to facilitate the export of generic drugs to developing countries. Do we know if the government is planning to amend this legislation anytime soon? Given that we have no indication of this on the list, does this mean that the process will not be initiated until January?
Ministers Pettigrew and Rock have announced plans to amend the patented medicines legislation. Is this matter on the committee's agenda for October 28 and 30? Is the committee thinking about examining this legislative amendment after Christmas?
¿ (0935)
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Shaw, have you received anything on it? I have not received anything. I'm sure we'll be able to ask additional questions when the minister appears.
Mr. Masse.
Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP): I'd like to ask for the 25th and 27th. I think, especially after the Kyoto accord, it will be important to study the auto industry. We know it's the minister's number one priority and Kyoto has a big impact on the auto industry because of the requirements. I thought that would be a timely place to talk about this and to hear from the auto manufacturers and parts associations. I think the connection is very important because of the mandate. Lastly, we do have one in seven jobs in this country tied to the auto industry, and it's the minister's number one priority. The timing, I think, would be good.
The Chair: After your comments last week, I asked that he make a portion of his presentation on the 9th on CAPC, which has all those stakeholders together.
Mr. Brian Masse: Yes, it does have all those stakeholders together, but I believe it's important to have the actual witnesses come forth. CAPC is a working body. That's different from studying the auto industry. That's a position of the minister. It's not necessarily studying the industry.
The Chair: I thought we'd have the discussion first with the minister and CAPC and we could try to frame how we would do that going forward. I have a list of about 16 items that we've put together on it.
Mr. Brian Masse: I understand that, but I think this is the minister's number one priority. He's outlined that, and it has significant ramifications with the Kyoto accord. I understand that it's nice that the minister will touch upon the CAPC, but that's not studying the auto industry.
These two suggestions, on the 25th and 27th, came from a member who was just sitting for one day in the committee here. I don't think it was a priority, given the other suggestions that have been put forth by sitting members on that basis.
The Chair: Any other comments along that line?
Mr. Rajotte.
Mr. James Rajotte: For clarification, CAPC is the advisory council that the minister has set up on automotive powers.
The Chair: CAPC is the advisory council with all the stakeholders included, from the OEMs, the major suppliers, the secondary and tertiary suppliers, the unions, the provincial government, and the federal government. So they're all part of that total auto industry council.
Mr. James Rajotte: And will they be appearing before the committee?
The Chair: My thought was that we should hear on the 9th from the minister, then perhaps that would be a good place to start for the auto industry. I haven't framed it yet on how we would do it, because I haven't had a chance to talk to Mr. Masse.
Mr. Brian Masse: They only meet a couple of times of year.
The Chair: Their working groups are really ongoing, and I've attended some of the working groups. They're really almost getting into a business plan of the auto industry under that CAPC.
Okay, let's talk and let's try to frame how we would want it and then present it back to the committee. If you wish not to have the CFI and the technology partners here and if you want to put the auto industry in that.... I'm looking for somebody to nod one way or another.
¿ (0940)
Mr. James Rajotte: We know we're likely not going to sit past the 7th, at this point. I mean, those are certainly what the rumours are. I think we have to make some priorities here. Frankly, we don't support Bill S-13 and we don't think it's going to the committee that quickly.
If you even want to move the auto industry to the 21st and 23rd, that way the minister is there on the 9th, he's there the following week after the break.
The Chair: Is that okay?
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin, Lib.): I have a question on CAPC. Does it include the municipalities that have the auto industry? Is Windsor...
Mr. Brian Masse: There's a working group of mayors. I'm not sure about their full participation, but they have been invited.
Mr. Brent St. Denis: I'm not sure if it's appropriate. If there were a time or an inclination to include them, do you think it would be good to have those mayors involved?
Mr. Brian Masse: Absolutely, there's an actual group of Ontario mayors that have been advocating for auto policy.
Mr. Brent St. Denis: Would it involve the province? We may as well go the extra little step and include the municipalities, I would think, considering our interest as a federal government in local government.
The Chair: I would suggest that we have the people from the auto industry who are able to speak on it.
Mr. Brent St. Denis: I'm saying if you're going to have the province here...
The Chair: No. What I said is this. Mr. Rajotte asked what the CAPC is. The CAPC is an umbrella organization with all the stakeholders, including the province.
Mr. Brent St. Denis: Okay, then I'll amend my comments.
If you had intended to include the province, I would have thought it would be good to include municipalities. Perhaps you're going to restrict it exclusively to the main players.
The Chair: Why don't you let Mr. Masse and I and whoever is interested frame how we think it should be with the researchers, and then we'll bring it back to committee.
I think we would want the domestic group here, we would want the Japanese group here, and others might want to come. The parts people might want to come. They have two organizations, so we'll have to hear from both parts people and then go from there. They're the ones who have the answers. We'll frame it and then we'll bring it back.
Any other discussion?
Mr. Rajotte.
Mr. James Rajotte: Might I ask a question, Mr. Chair?
If, as expected, the House does not sit past November 7, what is the status of this committee and will this committee be doing any studies or dealing with issues? One issue I would like to undertake is the beef industry, and that would involve the committee travelling, obviously, to western Canada.
The Chair: If the House prorogues, everything comes to a full stop, including any expenditures by any committee and any organizations. If the House adjourns, that's different.
Mr. James Rajotte: Is there an expectation that it will prorogue or adjourn?
The Chair: Your guess is as good as mine. You might want to ask your House leader.
Mr. James Rajotte: I'm going to send a letter to Paul. I'm just kidding.
The Chair: Your House leader plays an important role.
Mr. James Rajotte: If the House leaders planned to adjourn the House with unanimous consent and if one party did not agree to that, then the government would have to prorogue. Is that right?
The Chair: That's correct.
Mr. James Rajotte: Okay.
The Chair: So now you can send your letter to House Leader Paul.
Having done what we've done now...I don't know if it was legally right to do. We might have to pass a motion. Do we need to pass a motion?
If you agree that we do it as revised--and my revision is that from October 21 to October 23 we would frame something for the auto industry--we would try to get hold of Mr. Legault, even if it were this Wednesday or Thursday morning.
Do we need another meeting on future business? No.
Do you want to move gas prices up to Thursday morning? I know some of our Ontario members are somehow busy on an Ontario election, I guess. It's election day.
¿ (0945)
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: I'm sorry, but perhaps we could keep the subject of gasoline prices on our agenda in case Mr. Legault is unavailable. I just want to be certain that this item is not relegated to the back burner.
[English]
The Chair: I promise you I won't lose sight of it. We will have the clerk try to make contact with Mr. Legault and suggest Wednesday afternoon, Thursday morning, or the following week. We can't have Mr. Legault dictating what our schedule is, so let's give it one last try and that's it. Okay?
All right. So we need not meet tomorrow, unless Mr. Legault.... The clerk will have to phone around to everybody; don't only e-mail us if it's Wednesday or Thursday.
Ms. Gallant.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: Mr. Chairman, we still have elections going on for various committees. You can see yourself that we're spread pretty thin to make sure everybody's where they're supposed to be. Would it be possible to start the meeting perhaps half an hour later rather than hold up Mr. Legault if he does indeed come this Wednesday?
The Chair: What you're suggesting is for us to start the meeting on Wednesday at 4 o'clock?
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: Yes.
The Chair: I think that would be okay. It allows for elections. I think that's a fair request. All right, we'll do that.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: Thank you.
Mr. James Rajotte: And gas prices on October 7.
The Chair: Bearing in mind that if we don't hear from Mr. Legault or if we meet with Mr. Legault, we'll start with gas prices on October 7. Is everybody happy with that? Okay.
Is there anything else?
The meeting is adjourned to the call of the chair.