SCCO Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS ON COMBATING CORRUPTION

SOUS-COMITÉ DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS POUR COMBATTRE LA CORRUPTION

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, November 21, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance)): Order. Good afternoon, everybody.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1) and (2) and the order of the committee dated Tuesday, May 8, 2001, today we will have a briefing session relating to a study on combating corruption in the public sector.

Monsieur Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Chair, when I read the title here it scared me a little bit. It says, on the Notice of Meeting, the “Sub-committee on Combating Corruption of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts”. Now, I'm on the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Is there corruption on our committee?

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: It's the same in French.

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): I see that.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: It must be a mistake.

[English]

The Chair: Well, at least we would hope there is no corruption on the public accounts committee.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I'm just wondering if we shouldn't say instead, “Sub-committee of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on Combating Corruption”.

I think this is misphrased or whatever. If we leave this go on, I think it would send out a wrong message to the public. We should correct this in both French and English.

The Chair: You make a very good point, Monsieur Bertrand.

Let me just for the record read the order of reference of the subcommittee. I think everybody has it. If not, the clerk is going to circulate it. This goes back to May 8, 2001. The terms of reference are:

That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts establish a subcommittee to explore issues related to the impact of corruption on the efficient delivery of public services, to consider the role of Parliament in combating corruption, and to support current efforts to create regional and global organizations of parliamentarians engaged in the fight against corruption;

that the subcommittee be chaired by John Williams and that it be composed of ten members...

The concept is that corruption on a global scale is a major concern.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I agree with everything you say; I just believe there's something wrong with the title.

The Chair: I'm open for suggestions, Monsieur Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Perhaps “Sub-committee of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on Combating Corruption”.

The Chair: Oh, I see where you're coming from, Mr. Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: If this is sent out in my riding, and people find out I'm sitting on this committee—

The Chair: On a corrupt committee, yes.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: —they're going to say, “Oh, it's corrupt”. And you being the chair...

The Chair: My goodness, what kind of allegations are you making?

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

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The Chair: So it's a subcommittee of the public accounts committee that is focused on combating corruption.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Perfect.

The Chair: C'est bon? Okay.

The witnesses today are both me and Mr. Luc Fortin, Deputy Principal Clerk of Parliamentary Associations. Since it's not possible for me to be at both ends of the chair, I would ask Mr. Desrochers to nominate Mr. Bertrand to take the chair for this meeting.

Actually, the clerk tells me I can just ask Mr. Bertrand to take the chair.

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Thank you.

This afternoon, appearing as an individual, we have Mr. John Williams, member of Parliament, and Monsieur Fortin.

Whenever you're ready, Mr. Williams, just proceed—now that we know you're not corrupt.

Mr. John Williams (Individual Presentation): I'm glad you pointed that out, Mr. Chairman.

First, it's strange for me to be at this end of the table, but it's a delight as well to speak about an initiative that is taking shape and growing quite rapidly, with enthusiasm, wherever I speak about it. I'm talking about an organization that is being proposed, the Global Organization of Parliamentarians against Corruption.

The mandate of this particular subcommittee is to consider the role of Parliament in combating corruption and to support current efforts to create regional and global organizations of parliamentarians engaged in the fight against corruption. It's this supporting of global organizations that I want to address myself to this afternoon, Mr. Chair.

This goes back to some number of years ago, when I attended a conference in Delhi sponsored by the World Bank and the Parliamentary Centre. It was a wonderful conference. We did a lot of things. The people there were of the calibre of retired Supreme Court justices, Central Bank governors, and ministers of finance, and the issue was corruption.

At the end of that particular conference, where there were many good recommendations and ideas, I asked how we were going to implement these ideas. There was no answer. It became quite apparent that there needs to be some kind of organization to provide continuity, to carry agendas forward between major conferences so that if a conference does have an idea and a recommendation, and people say, yes, we do want to support this, there is a mechanism to carry it forward.

From that came the idea, in conjunction with the Parliamentary Centre, to create this organization of Global Organization of Parliamentarians against Corruption.

Since that time we've had a number of delegations from around the world visiting us in Ottawa, and I've always raised the issue. In every case, without exception, it has been enthusiastically endorsed. Not only do they want it, they say, but they absolutely need it. Of course, we all know that in many parts of the world corruption is virtually out of control, and in some places it is out of control.

About a year and a half ago, after talking around the world with many people, the decision was made to just do it. From there we identified people in different parts of the world who...

For example, Senator Romero in Mexico is taking the lead to develop a regional chapter of the organization for South America. When I was down in Mexico City, I met with a number of parliamentarians from various countries of South America, all enthusiastically endorsing the idea and the need for parliamentarians to unite to fight against corruption.

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While governments are doing something about it—we have the OAS convention against corruption, the OECD convention against bribery of public officials, and so on—it needs to be more than just governments. Parliamentarians need to get involved.

Civil society is doing something—for example, Transparency International—and the business community is calling out for a cleaner and more open and transparent environment for them to do business in. But Parliament is the institution that holds governments to account and that ensures openness and transparency as best as possible.

We know of far too many parliaments that are subservient to their governments. Dictators and executives can do, with impunity, what they want, as they want, and when they want. That is how corruption gets out of control in a society, to the detriment of the entire society.

Yesterday I talked to a gentleman from Peru. We all know that Mr. Fujimori, although he was democratically elected, was a dictator. Now they're talking about trying to find a way to deal with the 1,600 mass graves they have found down there. They have developed this concept of a truth commission, based on what they did in South Africa, but they don't have the funding and they don't have the technical expertise to develop the commission as they did in South Africa. Nonetheless, there are still 1,600 mass graves that have to be dealt with and answered for.

In Africa there's an organization called APNAC, African Parliamentarian Network Against Corruption, which was started spontaneously from a conference in Kampala hosted by the Parliamentary Centre, an NGO here in Ottawa. That organization has been working and developing and growing to involve parliamentarians to fight against corruption in sub-Saharan Africa.

I am working with a lady, Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, a member of the European Parliament who wants to get a chapter going for the European Union. There is a gentleman by the name of Son Chhay, a parliamentarian from Cambodia, who wants to get a chapter going there. I got a call about a month ago from a gentleman named Ross Robertson, a member of Parliament in New Zealand who heard about GOPAC and asked how he could get a chapter going in Australasia. I was in Moscow talking to parliamentarians and to the Counting Chamber over there, and they said not to worry, they would get a chapter going in Russia.

We are now finding that corruption is recognized as a scourge of society, and that parliamentarians are now prepared to talk about corruption, about ways of dealing and coming to grips with corruption. For example, when I was in Mexico, the embassy said that two years ago nobody would talk about corruption in Mexico, but today it is very much part and parcel of “What can we do?”

I approached the Parliament of Canada, both the House and the Senate, and they approved the holding of a conference here in Ottawa from September 8 to 11 of 2002, at which time we hope to bring in 200 parliamentarians from around the world so that Canada can take the lead and demonstrate that parliamentarians around the world have to come together and fight corruption.

This initiative was endorsed by the Minister of Finance. He has brought out a policy to forgive debt for the heavily indebted poor countries provided these poor countries improve their governance and use the money to enhance their society—in health, education, and so on. So we are prepared to forgive money that would otherwise come to Canadians as a repayment of the debt, provided the money goes to helping the poor people in that country, not to helping the rich get richer. And it has been the people in power who have gotten richer. So the Minister of Finance has endorsed this initiative.

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As well, we've talked to the international development minister, and an application is going in to CIDA for funding to assist this program. The World Bank has been extremely supportive of this initiative. They've said they are prepared to help fund it as well.

No matter where I go, Mr. Chairman, parliamentarians say this needs to be done. Through the subcommittee we have here this afternoon, we in the Parliament of Canada can start to play our part to understand the motivators and the environment that allows corruption to grow. And if we understand that, we should be taking action to ensure that it doesn't grow.

We in the developed society are here to help those in the undeveloped world come to grips with corruption, because I think in large measure the difference between the developed world and the undeveloped world is the amount of corruption that exists in these countries.

That is where it's at, Mr. Chair. As I say, I want to engage this committee as an all-party committee of the House of Commons. Corruption is not a partisan issue. Corruption is about good governance, and we as parliamentarians should all be engaged in that.

Having given you that broad overview, Mr. Chairman, I'm now going to ask Mr. Luc Fortin to perhaps speak on the specifics of the conference. Then we can answer questions and get into a discussion about how we're going to move this agenda forward.

Thank you very much.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Mr. Fortin.

Mr. Luc Fortin (Deputy Principal Clerk, Parliamentary Associations, House of Commons): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What I can do today is give you the basic components of the conference. A lot of details will follow in the next few months. As you know, a conference of 200 delegates is quite a major conference, and it implies a lot of logistics and advance planning.

What I can tell you is that a budget was approved by the joint interparliamentary council that is responsible for Parliamentary Associations. An amount of $192,000 was approved by the Board of Internal Economy during the month of October to proceed with the organization of the conference.

The conference is planned for four days. Most of the sessions will be hosted on Parliament Hill during those four days.

I don't know if you mentioned, Mr. Chair, the support of the Parliamentary Centre. Perhaps you would like to say a few words about the support of the Parliamentary Centre for the conference itself.

Mr. John Williams: Yes, thank you, Mr. Fortin.

I forgot to mention in my opening remarks that while these areas of the world are each setting up their own regional organizations, at the conference next September these regional organizations will come together to create and adopt a constitution for the global organization. So it's going to be a global organization supporting regional organizations around the world.

The Parliamentary Centre, an NGO here in Ottawa, has agreed to act as international secretariat for the organization, and is providing significant assistance in the planning and so on. So the conference Monsieur Fortin is speaking about will be in conjunction and in cooperation with the Parliamentary Centre.

Mr. Luc Fortin: Should you have any questions regarding the organization or the budget, please ask. As I said, everything is not planned yet, but more things will follow. We're planning to send the invitations probably at the beginning of next year.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Thank you very much to our two witnesses.

You may proceed, Mr. Desrochers. I don't believe we have set any kind of time limit.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I'll be fairly brief.

First of all, I want to congratulate my colleague John Williams for spearheading this initiative. I've traveled a little since being elected to Parliament, specifically to Colombia and recently to Africa, and I have to say that all five of the world's continents are impacted by corruption.

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One thing I've observed is that often corruption problems are associated with a radical change of regime where a new government is unable, so to speak, to administer a democratic regime. Unfortunately, there always seems to be some kind of intermediary who steps in and takes advantage of that fact.

That was the message that emerged from a meeting I had two or three weeks ago with an association comprised of representatives of all African nations. Certain issues need to be addressed. Take, for example, the collapse of the former Soviet Union. From a sociological standpoint, this country was dominated first by a czar, then by a dictatorship and later by a very repressive regime. However, no thought was given to putting in place proper mechanisms when the government of Russia was asked to embrace democracy. The Soviets didn't even know the meaning of the word.

Therefore, this initiative will enable us not only to focus on the problem of corruption, but also to determine how far we have come in the process of instituting democracy, what with all of the changes that have transpired, particularly in Eastern Europe and in Africa.

This conference will serve as a forum for productive, valuable exchanges. Rest assured that I will help you any way I can to make this event a success.

Thank you very much.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Thank you very much.

[English]

Did you want to respond, Mr. Williams?

Mr. John Williams: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

I very much appreciate your comments. Democracy deals with accountability in government, which I speak about quite often. What, apart from one's internal conscience, keeps people honest, and what keeps society honest? Accountability.

I use the analogy of speeding to explain my point. All of us who drive I'm sure go a little bit too fast. I know I do. I set my cruise control at 10 kilometres over the speed limit, because if I meet the RCMP on the highway, I know they'll let me get away with 10 kilometres. If I travel Highway 401 in Toronto, I can go 20 kilometres over the speed limit, because all the traffic goes at 20 kilometres over the speed limit. Nobody gets a ticket.

But there comes a point when an RCMP officer says, no, that's too much, and pulls you over to give you a ticket. If you're going really fast, it's an expensive ticket, plus demerit points and so on.

So you say, well, if I go too fast, 40 or 50 kilometres over the speed limit, (a), I know I'm going to get caught, and (b), if I do get caught, I don't think I will like the punishment, because it'll be kind of painful, and expensive. So I don't do it. I'm motivated to keep my speed down. But I'm quite prepared to break the law a little bit, 10 kilometres, because I know I get away with it.

Corruption is exactly the same, Mr. Chairperson. If people think they can get away with it, they will do it. If people can speed a little, they will do it. If we don't have an independent and impartial judiciary, if they can be bribed, or if policemen can be bribed, then people will get away with it. That attitude becomes endemic in society, and it goes downhill from there.

It's not just bribing the policeman or bribing the judge. I was talking to a gentlemen yesterday, and from a $10 million grant made by an international financial agency, $70,000 went into the project and $9,930,000 went we know not where. It's gone. That is corruption.

We heard about Marcos in the Philippines with his billions around the world. That tax money was taken from the people, and it sucked the lifeblood right out of the economy.

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That is why these people are destitute, and that is why we have to get parliamentarians engaged. As parliamentarians we are the accountability institution that holds government to account. We have question period here every day, where the government has to account publicly for what it is doing. And that is the accountability.

In many cases it's openness and transparency that keeps the government honest, because they know society will not tolerate what they're doing. That's why dictators always operate in the dark, why they dominate the press and dominate the Parliament. Mr. Mugabe in Zimbabwe trashes farmers and so on and allows gangs to go out and kill people with impunity. He knows there is no accountability.

We have an obligation as parliamentarians, not just here but around the world, to engage and put that accountability on governments. If in Russia, in Zimbabwe, and all around the world we can raise the standard of accountability, hopefully the amount of corruption will go down.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

I too would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on this occasion. As you mentioned so well, there are countries in this world where, if you want to do business, certain amounts have to be held for kickbacks, even in this day and age. If this conference, which I'm very proud Canada is hosting, can turn things around and make sure, as you said, some of the money goes back to help the people, and not just to a few, then I think it'll be worthwhile. It's something we can leave as a heritage to the parliamentarians who come after us.

Mr. Murphy, do you have any questions?

Mr. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.): If I may, I'd just like to make a comment.

I want to echo the chairman's comments. I think this is an excellent initiative. Whatever value or assistance I can bring to the conference, I'd be certainly happy to do so.

One of the biggest advantages to the whole thing, as I see it, is bringing public awareness to the problem when you get a conference like this. If we can get 200 parliamentarians from right around the world, we're certainly going to get a lot of media attention. The more public attention the problem gets, the better, because that's what it needs right now—more scrutiny, more public attention. Hopefully democracy and accountability and rule of law will follow. The problem will never disappear, and we all know that, but hopefully it will lessen if proper procedures and methodologies are taken into account.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Mr. Williams, who's doing the work setting up the conference?

Mr. John Williams: There are three different things here, Mr. Chairman. There is a regional chapter, and, as I mentioned, we're setting up chapters around the world. In North America, which primarily is Canada and the United States—it will also include provincial legislatures—we need to create a North American chapter of parliamentarians against corruption.

At the conference next year, hopefully we will bring in the global organization, adopt a constitution, and have that running by next year. And there is a conference, so there is continuity. As I said at the beginning, when I was at that first conference, there were great ideas without any continuity. It just fell flat. So we need to have these regional organizations and the global organization as a continuous vehicle to carry the agenda forward and to implement the ideas.

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Now, this committee, I hope, will adopt the responsibility... I guess it's rather unusual for a parliamentary committee to get engaged in actually doing something rather than just talking about things. Parliament's real fundamental role is, as I said, to hold government to account, and here we're asking parliamentarians to unite. From this point forward, I want the initiative to be this committee's initiative, not any particular person's initiative. It's an initiative of the Parliament of Canada, of parliamentarians of Canada, to host the conference. It's going to be organized by the clerks of the House of Commons, under the direction of Monsieur Fortin, in conjunction with the Parliamentary Centre. But this is for parliamentarians to become engaged here in Canada, both in this Parliament right here and in legislatures across the country, and in the states and the federal government in the United States.

Now, Mexico is a bit north and south, and we'll have to resolve that. Are they in the South American chapter or the North American chapter? They're a bit of both. But these are issues we can talk about.

It's going to be a rather unique experience for a parliamentary committee to actually get involved in hands-on doing something rather than talking and filing a report—that's our opinion, tabled in the House, job done. This is going to be an ongoing participation of parliamentarians, to say we can understand why corruption is at a low level in this country, but to understand that, we have to ensure that we always continue to reinforce these mechanisms and turn our backs on the ones who do allow it.

We also have to spread our knowledge and assist Third World countries. We spend, I think, about $2.5 billion a year through development aid, and we want to ensure it's spent effectively and productively, going right to the poor people, providing education and health, right to the citizenry of these nations—no skimming off, no bribery, but productive investment.

So this is about engaging parliamentarians. From here on in, this committee, I hope, will accept that responsibility.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): I have just one last question on the constitution. Will the constitution be written up that weekend, or will the Parliamentary Centre be writing up the constitution before and sending it out to these different chapters? How is it going to be written up?

Mr. John Williams: There are two constitutions. There are the constitutions for the regional organizations, which hopefully will have a commonality to them. They'll be self-governing chapters, so they'll have their own constitutions, with perhaps a commonality among them. The constitution for the global organization will be written beforehand but it will have to be voted on by the organization next September. It's only after the constitution is voted on by the members of the organization, and adopted, that it actually comes into being.

Elections for the office-bearers will also happen at this conference. What we're envisaging is that each region, being self-governing, would have its own executive and board of directors. Each region would have three members on the board of the global organization so that there is worldwide representation. But while the constitution is being written and finalized before the conference, and then distributed and debated, there has to be, as you know, a meeting in order to have it adopted, and that will be next September.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): Again, I think it's an excellent initiative.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear!

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): I'm sure I speak on behalf of members when I assure you that you'll have our entire cooperation.

Mr. John Williams: I want to reiterate, Mr. Chairman, that from here on in it's our collective initiative, the initiative of the committee's subcommittee. We'll be working together as a team, sometimes on committee, as we are right now, in a public forum, as the agenda develops and moves forward. Sometimes it may require, to get things done... You know how it is; in any organization you have to do a certain amount of work off the Hill and report back. This will be the forum that we keep reporting back to.

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Again, I thank you very much for your kind words. I'm so glad to hear that the committee is prepared to accept this responsibility. I know I look forward to working with colleagues from all parties—because this is a non-partisan issue—to move this agenda forward.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Robert Bertrand): The subcommittee is adjourned to the call of the chair.