HUMA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND THE STATUS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

COMITÉ PERMANENT DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DES RESSOURCES HUMAINES ET DE LA CONDITION DES PERSONNES HANDICAPÉES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, October 16, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.)): I'm going to call the meeting to order. Welcome to the 32nd meeting of our standing committee.

The agenda is in front of you. However, before we get into the agenda, we have some new members of the committee and some returning members of the committee, and I thought it might be appropriate to have each member of the committee introduce themselves, introduce their riding, and perhaps tell us a little bit about what interests them most about this particular committee.

An hon. member: Is this recorded?

The Chair: It's recorded, so give us your best bio here.

Madame Folco, perhaps we can start with you.

[Translation]

Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Good morning, my name is Raymonde Folco and I am the Member for Laval West and Parliamentary Secretary to the Human Resources Development Minister. I think that explains my presence here, but I am also here especially because everything involving relations between the government and the Canadian population is of interest to me, especially the assistance the government provides and its responsibility toward the population.

[English]

Mr. Alan Tonks (York South—Weston, Lib.): Good morning, I'm Alan Tonks from the York South—Weston riding. I have sat on the committee before. I also sit on the environment and sustainable development committee.

From my background in municipal government, I think every member of the House should be required to sit on this committee. It's a good apprenticeship for knowing how things really happen in our communities. And I've enjoyed being on the committee.

[Translation]

Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.): My name is Diane St-Jacques and I am the Member for Shefford, in the Eastern Townships in Quebec. I have sat on the Human Resources Development Committee since last year, and my main interest may perhaps lie in finding solutions to improve the situation of people who unfortunately find themselves unemployed.

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[English]

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): I'm Eugène Bellemare from Ottawa—Orléans. My being here is a new experience for me and for you.

That's it.

Mr. Joe McGuire (Egmont, Lib.): I think Eugène should explain more.

The Chair: He subscribes to the “keep the expectations low” theory.

Mr. Joe McGuire: My name is Joe McGuire, from the riding of Egmont, Prince Edward Island. I'm normally found on the agriculture or fisheries committee, but I have an interest in the EI file that goes back many years. That, coupled with the future of our young people, is one of the reasons I'm interested in this committee.

Mr. Tony Ianno (Trinity—Spadina, Lib.): I'm Tony Ianno, Trinity—Spadina. I'm here because the chair is a great leader and also because I think HRDC is really the social safety net that the provinces sometimes don't supply, and we're able to make a difference in the country.

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Hi, I'm Libby Davies. I'm the NDP rep on the committee from Vancouver East. I'm the critic on social policy, housing, post-secondary education—it goes on and on—for our party. I've actually been on this committee since 1997. It has gotten progressively better, and I can't figure out whether it's because I'm getting too used to this place or whether it actually is getting better.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: You've been away, Libby, for a number of months; that's why.

Ms. Libby Davies: For the EI stuff, yes, my colleague, Yvon Godin, was here.

When I first got here in 1997, the committee was really dysfunctional. We actually have come more together here and focused on things. But I may just be getting too used to this place. At any rate, it's good to be back.

[Translation]

Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): I apologize for being late. My name is Monique Guay, and I am the Member for the County of the Laurentides, and labour critic for my party. In that capacity Canadian labour legislation is very important to me, as is pay equity for men and women. I am also very concerned by the conditions pregnant and nursing women encounter, and by precautionary cessation of work. I in fact tabled a bill on that topic.

So, I hope that we will continue to do good work and that we will ensure that people in need in the course of the next few months—and there will be a lot of them in light of the international crisis that is playing out—will have the help they need to get through the hard times.

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): Good morning. I am Paul Crête, the longest-sitting member of this committee. I believe I have been a member of the Human Resources Development Committee for about five years.

Obviously, I have a great deal of interest in all the activities of the department, because it seems to me that it is a department that implements one of the main responsibilities of the federal government, that of redistributing wealth in our society. I think that there is still a great deal of work to do. This committee allows us to appreciate, also, the frustrations associated with the slow rate at which attitudes change regarding certain things, and of experiencing the pleasure of seeing democracy produce results from time to time.

[English]

Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance): I'm Larry Spencer from Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre. That's in Saskatchewan. I was assigned to this committee, but I'm glad to be here. A majority of my constituency work revolves around issues that this committee will be dealing with, so I'm quite glad to be here. I've been recruited, in a sense, by some who say this is a really functional and good committee. I'm here to find that out.

Ms. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, Canadian Alliance): My name is Carol Skelton, and I'm the member of Parliament for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, in Saskatchewan, as Larry says.

I began on this committee—this is my first committee—and I've continued on. I am now the critic for the family for the Canadian Alliance. After experiencing what we went through this spring, I understand fully that this committee deals with family continually. I'm very glad to be back.

Mr. Joe Peschisolido (Richmond, Canadian Alliance): My name is Joe Peschisolido. I'm the MP for Richmond in British Columbia. Some might view it as a suburb of Vancouver, but I view it as an island and a community unto itself.

I'm the chief critic for the Alliance, or the official opposition, on HRDC. I'm honoured to be vice-chair of the committee. I like being here because it's a good committee. I've heard very good things about the work of the committee. I also believe the federal government has a significant role to play in skills training and in helping our working men and women. It's just a question of determining what that role is.

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I also believe the federal government has a role to play when individuals are in times of need, transitional times, be it students, be it those who are disabled, or be it those in the latter part of their life. I think it's great that I'm going to be part of this committee, dealing with those issues.

Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance): I'm Dale Johnston from the grand old riding of Wetaskiwin. That's in Alberta. A lot of people think it sounds like Saskatchewan so it must be somewhere there, but it isn't. It's in central Alberta, between Red Deer and Edmonton.

I'm going to challenge Paul for the deanship of the committee because I was here at the beginning of the 35th Parliament, in 1994, when I was assigned to this committee as the labour critic. I still am the labour critic. I don't know if that's because that's all I'm capable of doing or because that's what my leader expects me to do.

At any rate, I'm here for the labour component of this committee. I've seen that this is the largest expenditure by any department of the government, including health care or defence or any other. So to me this is a vastly important committee. It deals with people's lives and has implications for the tax structure in Canada. My interest here is manyfold, although primarily from the labour perspective.

Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.): My name is Anita Neville. I'm the member of Parliament for Winnipeg South Centre.

This is a committee I asked to be on. This is my second go-round on it. I came on last year.

Because I came in late—and I apologize—I don't know what my colleagues on this side have said, but I'm repeating some of what I heard on the other side. My own professional expertise or background is in skills training and post-secondary education, so it's an obvious natural fit. I've also had much interest and involvement in issues related to children, the children's agenda as well as disability issues. I'm very interested in those concerns.

I'm also very interested in issues related to the skills development of first nations aboriginal communities, particularly in the urban setting. That is a major concern in my community.

This is a committee, as many of you have said, that has many manifestations. I don't know that there's any I'm not interested in. I'm pleased to be here.

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.): My name is Gurbax Malhi, member of Parliament for Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, in Ontario.

I was first elected to the House of Commons in 1993, and now I'm the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Labour. I am interested in labour issues.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you.

I'm Judi Longfield. I come from Whitby—Ajax, which is just east of metropolitan Toronto on the shores of Lake Ontario. I joined this committee as a member of the subcommittee on disabilities. It's an area that has always been of great interest to me, but the affairs of the main committee are also of paramount importance to me.

I come here, as does Anita, via post-secondary education. I spent many years in that area, and also in the old Canadian vocational training—this dates me somewhat—back in the seventies, dealing with skills development apprenticeship and those kinds of programs.

I've come via...as parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Labour, so I'm also very concerned about labour issues.

For those of you who have talked about how well this committee has run, I suppose if it falls apart in the next little bit you have one person to blame, and that is me. I don't particularly want that label, so I'll do what I can to make certain this committee continues to act responsibly and in a very non-partisan way, as it has over the past little bit. I really look forward to working with all of you.

That takes us through the general area of who we are and why we are here, which brings us nicely into the agenda we have before us—the future business of the committee.

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I think everyone has the report from the steering committee. I'm open to suggestions on how you want to deal with this.

Yes.

Ms. Libby Davies: Is the steering committee still made up of members from every party?

The Chair: It is.

Ms. Libby Davies: I wasn't aware that we were actually notified of the steering committee. I can't remember. I wasn't there, obviously, so if we're all going to have steering committee meetings in the future.... For quite a while we didn't have them. We did initially, and then they seemed to fall off.

At any rate, I'm sorry I missed it.

The Chair: Well, if you were missed, if we failed to notify, it was an oversight. It won't happen again. We'll make certain. If I don't see you at the steering committee meeting, I'll get on the phone.

Ms. Libby Davies: All right.

The Chair: Any others?

Mr. Dale Johnston: Yes, Madam Chairman. I see from your report that it was resolved that the Minister of HRDC and the Minister of Labour would appear before the committee to discuss the current crisis as soon as possible after October 15. I'm wondering if we have a date that the ministers could accommodate the committee.

The Chair: Mr. Johnston, because this was a report by the steering committee, it was a bit presumptuous of us, before the main committee had adopted the report, to put out official requests. However, I can tell you that I have sent unofficial word to both ministers that we wish to see them. I would expect that once this report is adopted the official requests will go out. I would expect to hear back very quickly.

Mr. Dale Johnston: Just further to that, Madam Chair, I think the events of September 11 have probably changed a lot of our perspectives on a lot of things. I think it's of utmost importance that we hear from these ministers as soon as possible. I would look forward to discussing that further with the entire committee.

The Chair: Raymonde Folco.

[Translation]

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Since Mr. Johnston has raised the matter, I too have had the opportunity of speaking to the two ministers. It is clear that the two ministers will come before us to present reports and discuss certain issues. I don't see why they shouldn't. We haven't set a date because that depends of course on the availability of each of the ministers.

Around the table at the steering committee it was very clear, both on the part of opposition parties and the government party, that there was agreement on the fact that everyone would like to see the two ministers appear before the committee. There was no real debate on that in the sense that everyone agreed.

[English]

The Chair: Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: I have looked at the items put forward here for consideration for future business. I certainly don't disagree with any of them. They're either subjects that we've already had discussion about...and I think it's always good to continue. I'm particularly interested in the post-secondary education and in continuing to monitor how these service contracts are working, and whether or not students really are getting good service. The committee has gotten quite into that, so I think it's good for us to follow up.

On the guaranteed annual income supplement, I actually recently wrote a letter to the minister about this incredible situation. I forget how many tens of thousands of seniors are not getting the supplement they are entitled to. So I would certainly agree to our having a discussion about that.

I did actually want to put forward one other idea, which is why I'm sorry I missed the steering committee meeting. I believe this committee also has responsibility for the Canada Pension Plan. I don't know about other members around the table, but I have to say that the CPP stories we hear and the cases we deal with, particularly the disability claims, and the fact that there seems to be.... Well, I don't know whether it's an unwritten policy, but it's pretty clear to everybody that they basically have a 100% turndown or rejection rate. People are then forced to go through massive appeals.

I just feel that at some point there should be oversight by this committee on the Canada Pension Plan, but particularly as it pertains to people with disabilities—that is, people who are making claims for disabilities.

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Now, maybe that's something our subcommittee, if they are going to continue, could look at as well, but I think it bears some scrutiny. I would just be very interested to know if other members around the table...because I think it's a very non-partisan issue. We've never looked at it, but I would guess that probably most of our offices get these cases that are really quite horrendous in terms of the bureaucracy and the lack of compassion or accountability that people have to endure.

So I'd like to put that out as a possibility for us to look at as a committee. It maybe warrants some further discussion.

The Chair: Looking at the nods around the table, I certainly don't think anybody is in opposition to that. I think the only discussion would be whether—

Ms. Libby Davies: We can fit it in.

The Chair: —it goes to the subcommittee or whether it's something the main committee takes on. So certainly we can add that to future discussions.

Just before I go to the next speaker, I think we also have to be aware that the Employment Equity Act may very well be directed to this committee. We need to be prepared to deal with that if and when it comes. We actually talked about it at the steering committee. So I just want to draw attention to that.

Joe.

Mr. Joe Peschisolido: Madam Chair, I just want to echo the comments made by Madame Folco on the importance of moving ahead and having this debate, and the full agreement within the committee. We just have to figure out how to put it together in the next several weeks.

I'd also like to echo the comments of Ms. Davies. I think she's hit a very important issue. I'm sure a lot of the other members are getting the same thing in their constituency offices. So I'd like to echo that and follow up on the need to look at student loans as well.

The Chair: Mr. Johnston.

Mr. Dale Johnston: Madam Chairman, I think it's really important that we have a look at the student loans. For instance, my understanding is that you can get a one-year mortgage now for less than 5%, and I'm wondering what the low interest rate policy has done to the repayment of the student loans.

One of the problems we've seen over the years with this whole area is the non-payment of student loans and the amount of default we've had. Certainly the more compliance we can have, the better. If these students who are paying back these loans aren't getting the benefit of the low interest rate policies that are happening right now, that forces them into a position where they may have to go to another lending institution to borrow the money in order to get the lower interest rate to pay off their student loan.

I don't think that should be necessary. We should be making adjustments to the student loans or putting pressure on to make sure these low interest rate policies are passed on to students struggling to pay their loans.

The Chair: Good point.

Mr. Crête.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: I of course agree with the first recommendation to meet with the ministers as soon as possible.

At the steering committee the matter of the Employment Equity Act was raised. If memory serves, someone asked whether we could check if it was legally possible to refer this to a subcommittee. It is not mentioned in the motion. I don't know what the status of that request is.

I was wondering whether we were supposed to decide in committee what will happened to the subcommittees: the one on youth, the one on handicapped persons and the whole issue of work and the Employment Equity Act. There is no motion in that regard. I don't know if that is because the Standing Orders provide that this is automatic or whether we should add this to our motion.

My last comment is about the government's response on employment insurance. When we receive that response, it is quite possible that it will require a reaction from the committee. If all of our unanimous recommendations are rejected across the board or if some of them are accepted and the others rejected, it would seem relevant to include in our program the possibility of reacting to the government's response at that time.

[English]

The Chair: With respect to the subcommittees, I'm still waiting for a report from the whips. We can't constitute a subcommittee until such time as the members who wish to be on the subcommittee are added to the committee as associate members. I just haven't heard the status of that.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: For us?

[English]

The Chair: For everyone, yes.

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Those are two committees that have had precedence on this committee. I think we talked about there being two subcommittees. The possibility of a third subcommittee was probably a little more remote, so I think we need to deal with the two subcommittees first.

On the next issue, with respect to the minister appearing—her report on EI—I think the understanding always is that when a minister is prepared, and when the minister has tabled a response to any report that we've given, that would take precedence, and we would immediately readjust our agenda to fit that in.

So I think what we're looking at here, with the report of the steering committee, are those issues that will come in and fall into place around the things our committee is mandated to do. It doesn't preclude any of those other things.

I mean, this is just a rough thing. If something happens, we can change direction at any time. As I said before, the steering committee will meet far more frequently, so we'll get a better handle on what's happening and we don't have to put in place a year's agenda.

Yes.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: Unless I am mistaken, the deadline is October 25, the end of the 150-day period during which the government must table a response to the Human Resources Development Committee, and that is the only event for which we have a specific date in our motion. Wouldn't it be...?

[English]

The Chair: I guess I would expect that if the report is tabled, it would come after our at 11 o'clock meeting. It would probably be after government orders, so we wouldn't be able to deal with it on the 25th.

Mr. Paul Crête: Okay.

The Chair: I don't want to cut off debate, but I'm hoping that I might see a motion to adopt the steering committee.

Mr. Alan Tonks: I so move.

The Chair: Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: If we adopt that motion, will there be a further consideration of some of these other issues that have been raised—for example, the CPP one? How will we deal with that?

The Chair: You'll have to bear with me for a bit; the clerk has just indicated that perhaps you can make a second motion and we can deal with that immediately after.

Ms. Libby Davies: Okay.

The Chair: So we'll vote on the motion.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The Chair: Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: I would move a second motion, then, that the committee also consider a review—I don't want to use the word “study”, because that might be something that comes later—of the Canada Pension Plan as it pertains to disability. Maybe we can discuss at a later time whether it can go to the subcommittee or whether it will come to the full committee, or both; you know, they'll look at it first and then there will be a report back here.

The Chair: Okay. So either the main committee or the subcommittee will look at CPP disability.

Ms. Libby Davies: Yes.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The Chair: Is there any other business the committee wants to entertain at this point?

Seeing none, I'm going to ask the clerk to get those official requests out to both ministers and hope that we have a very speedy response.

In the interim, perhaps we could start on our study of the guaranteed income supplement. I've talked to the clerk, and she has made some tentative calls to people who might be prepared to come Thursday and start that discussion on the guaranteed income supplement.

As well, as I say, if a minister is prepared to come on Thursday, then obviously the minister will come and we'll bump the other off the agenda.

Is that all right with everyone?

Good.