FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, May 28, 2001

• 1637

[English]

The Chair (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.)): Colleagues, I'd like to call to order this meeting of the foreign affairs and international trade committee.

On your behalf, I would like to welcome Mr. Gennady Seleznev, the chairman of the Russian Duma. He brings with him a distinguished group of parliamentarians representing all parties in the Russian Duma.

He is accompanied by His Excellency Mr. Churkin, the Russian Ambassador to Canada. Welcome. Thank you very much for coming.

Normally, Mr. Speaker, in our House, in our practice here, we ask our guests if they could make a short statement of issues. Then we will turn it over to questioning from the members who have some questions they'd like to ask you. We hope we can get a discussion going between us.

I want to thank the speaker for having experienced two local Canadian events for us. The first was being scrummed on his way in here, which I think was a good experience, and then I noticed that he managed to make the chair collapse, which proves we need new chairs for this committee room. I want to thank him for that as well.

• 1640

Mr. Chairman, sir.

Mr. Gennady Nikolaevitch Seleznev (Chairman, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1650

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

We have a speaker's list. I'd like to start with Mr. Solberg.

Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): I'll be very brief, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

• 1655

Mr. Speaker, thank you for your presentation and welcome to all of you.

My question has to do with an international issue, with the issue of nuclear disarmament and missile defence. There seems to be keen interest on the Russian side, and I think on the American side, for reduction in nuclear weapons, which is welcome. I wonder if you'd say a few words about that. Maybe you could also comment on the issue of missile defence and what the Duma's position is with respect to missile defence.

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

Mr. Monte Solberg: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to defer to my colleague.

Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance): Still on the issue of national missile defence, I'm wondering whether on the issue of the 1972 ABM treaty there are any circumstances under which Russia would consider reforming that treaty to allow for missile defence of some kind.

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1700

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. O'Brien.

Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Following on the questions on NMD, since I chaired our defence committee the previous two years, it's still a topic of great interest to me. I have a couple of questions, if I may.

We had testimony from a Russian professor—I forget his name just now—before our Standing Committee on Defence and he predicted that in the end Russia will make a deal with the Americans on the ABM treaty. What do you think is the probability of that?

Secondly, it seems pretty obvious, to many Canadians at least, that President Bush is going to go ahead with some form of NMD. Given a choice between a unilateral American-controlled system and a system headquartered at NORAD, which would involve Canada as the bilateral partner, if I could ask you, sir, which of the two would you find preferable, as a Russian?

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1705

The Chair: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if maybe I could go through my list here of about five deputies to ask questions, and then you could ask back your way. We're here until six o'clock. Is that all right?

I have about another three deputies who would like to ask questions, and then we'll try to get an exchange going.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: There's just my question with regard to unilateral American control or NORAD control.

The Chair: We'll see if we can get that one in.

[Translation]

I trust you understand the problem, Mr. Dubé. They want to ask us questions as well. Therefore, I would appreciating your putting your questions as quickly as possible.

Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): I hail from Quebec and I am a member of the opposition. Two years ago, I accompanied the Secretary of State for Science and Technology on a visit to Russia. One of the issues that was very much in the forefront at the time, and still is today for that matter, was the situation in Chechnya. We also hear a great deal about this matter here at home. Could you tell me if you are considering holding any kind of talks with Chechnya?

• 1710

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1715

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Keyes.

Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to add my voice to the chorus of thanks to you and your delegation for attending our committee.

Before being elected a member of Parliament for Hamilton West over 12 years ago, I spent 15 years as a news reporter. You spoke of a very busy schedule and that you will be passing a number of laws. There is one proposed amendment to the media law that I hope your federal assembly will not pass. For the benefit of my colleagues, the proposed law would obligate journalists to reveal their sources to police whenever asked.

We hear the stories in Canada that the last truly independent national newspaper in Russia has to carry out regular sweeps of its offices to look for eavesdropping devices, and the top reporters are being watched by security cameras—some of them have even been beaten. Given your statement that there are no laws in your country that would prevent business from investing in your country, and you said you have a commitment to wipe out corruption in your government, might I suggest that news reporters can be your strongest allies? We may not even like them much here in Canada, but still, they're your strongest allies. It's called freedom of the press. Please tell me that journalists won't be silenced by your government.

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1725

Mr. Stan Keyes: So then you have no plan to pass this proposed law that would require journalists to reveal their sources?

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

Mr. Stan Keyes: Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Thank you.

I still have three members on my list but our guest asked if he could ask us a couple of questions. Maybe we could let them ask a few questions, then at the end we'll go back to our list, if that's all right.

So you had some questions, I think.

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

Mr. Nikolai Petrovich Kiselev (Deputy Chairman, State Duma Committee on Economic Policy and Entrepreneurship, Agro-industrial Group of Deputies, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: I don't see, Mr. Kiselev, any of our members jumping to answer your questions, so perhaps I will pick up the challenge.

I will say that the committee regularly holds hearings on the issue of food shortages, and every year we have a committee hearing around World Food Day, in which we hear from witnesses from the agricultural sector. The evidence we have heard tends to focus on the problems of food distribution and the problems arising out of the World Trade Organization, the disputes between the European Community and the Americans over subsidization of food products, and the effects this has in Third World markets. And Canada generally is in favour of liberalizing world food markets.

Our committee has travelled across this country and heard evidence from our farm communities because they are concerned about being closed down by present conditions in world food distribution. So I think you would find a resonance with our members of Parliament to discuss with Russian colleagues what we could do and how we could work in common on that issue.

I would be happy to make that recommendation to the chair of our agriculture committee, which actively pursues these matters, and we'll see if we can, perhaps through the Canada-Russia association, of which Mr. Richardson is the co-chair and Senator Prud'homme is the co-chair, put together a small group to work on that. I was going to ask the chairman about how your access to the WTO is coming, but it may well be that in the context of the World Trade Organization we could do something as well.

• 1730

That's not a very precise answer to your question, but it's the best I can give. I certainly think there's a willingness in this country to look at it. I will say to you that I can speak for my colleagues here on the committee that probably from the international trade dimension of our work, the most complicated and difficult issues we've had to look at are those around agriculture, and this is true whether we're talking to our American colleagues or our European colleagues. So we would be happy to work with you on them.

Mr. Nikolai Kiselev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Aleksandr Aleksandrovich Sizov (Member, State Duma Committee on Commonwealth of Independent States and Relations with Compatriots, Member of the Motherland-All Russia Faction, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: Does the parliamentary secretary to the minister want to...?

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If I understood the question, it's how Canada is assisting, or trying to assist, international trade generally. While there is any number of ways, of course, we're one of the countries that is pushing hardest for a new round.

No? I misunderstood that?

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: Can I answer that, Pat? I think they'd like to know the type of work we do.

• 1735

Two years ago, for example, prior to the ministerial meeting of the WTO in Seattle, our trade minister asked this committee to travel across the country and make a report to the government on what we believed, as parliamentarians, the policy should be—not the government policy but parliamentarians' policies and recommendations.

Mr. Chairman, I'll give you a copy of that report, which we'd be happy to share with you. You'll see the type of work the committee has done.

As well, we have a trade subcommittee for this committee that concerns itself with issues involving trade. That committee has done a report on the free trade of the Americas prospect in recent times.

We also as a committee held hearings recently concerning the Quebec Summit, which relates to the free trade of the Americas issue.

Presently, for example, a group of our trade subcommittee members will be going to Washington, before Parliament rises, to talk about a lumber dispute we are having with the United States. As well, our trade committee has just completed a trip to Europe, where they met with European counterparts to talk about trade opportunities between the European Community and Canada.

So the parliamentary committee is very active in matters of trade. The way in which we work is that we travel, we meet other parliamentarians, we meet with members of the Canadian public, and then we recommend matters to the government. The government, I would say, generally accepts our recommendations—not 100%, but they generally accept them. That's the way this committee functions.

We've been, I would say over the last five years, quite effective in making our views heard about issues of trade.

Mr. Stan Keyes: And not just policy.

Mr. Aleksandr Sizov: [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: Quite often the way our committee system works is that, for example, if it was a law that was amending a law relating to agriculture, it would go to the agriculture committee. If it was fisheries, it would go to the fisheries committee.

We do get involved in amending the laws in some situations. For example, when Canada acceded to the new World Trade Organization, we had to amend some 68 different laws involving banking, agriculture, everything. Those all came before this committee to be considered. Normally, specific laws in specific areas go to the committee of the department in question. We look more at the issue of the trade policy, at what kind of policy Canada should have.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Mr. Chairman, maybe you want to illustrate that we also deal with international issues such as what the committee is dealing with now on international boundary waters.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Stan Keyes: We receive the legislation and the committee vets the legislation. It goes across the country and sometimes internationally. We take the government's proposed bill and make the appropriate amendments and then it goes back to the House of Commons, as part of a long process.

Then, not to exclude our colleagues in the Senate, of which Mr. Prud'homme is a member, the whole process is repeated one more time in the Senate for what we call in Canada “sober second thought”.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: I might also indicate, Mr. Chairman, that the structure of the committee is that both ministers, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and also the Minister for International Trade, appear before us from time to time.

We have the term “parliamentary secretary”. I am the parliamentary secretary for trade. There is a colleague, Mr. Paradis, who is the parliamentary secretary for foreign affairs, and we both sit on this committee. So it's very much a joint effort.

The Chair: Mr. Emelyanov.

Mr. Mikhail Vasilievich Emelyanov (Deputy Chairman of the State Duma Committee on Property, Yabloko Faction, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1740

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Dubé, followed by Mr. Keyes.

Mr. Antoine Dubé: I am not a member of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. However, I do sit on the Sub-committee on Human Rights and International Development.

Generally speaking, I agree that in order to keep abreast of a subject, it's not enough to merely read press releases. Sometimes, nothing beats asking direct questions of other parliamentarians. Furthermore, when speaking off the subject, it is always wise to exercise caution. I won't say anything more about the Balkans because, as you know, it's not a simple issue. Like many other people, we too rely on information gleaned from various sources and it's not as simple as it appears. I wouldn't want to say anything that might add fuel to the fire, so to speak.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Keyes.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Thank you for the question.

I think we take pride in our media here in Canada always projecting the balanced point of view—whatever world events happen, whatever the story may be, from whatever part of the world.

That comes about in 90% of the cases or more, because they are reporting to Canadian citizens who demand that of their media. If there was a dispute somewhere in the world where the media may be projecting a biased point of view from one side of the story, you soon find the community that is being unfairly treated by the media in this country coming forward and voicing their concerns—writing letters to the editor, speaking to their members of Parliament, speaking to senators to represent their voices in the Parliament of Canada.

It's very difficult in this country to project a biased point of view from one side of the story without raising the ire of the community that lives in Canada from the other point of view.

The Chair: You might be interested to know that during the time of the Kosovo intervention, this committee together with the defence committee held regular hearings. We heard from all representatives. We heard very strong voices from our own Serbian community in Canada who very clearly, obviously, objected to what the country was doing, and took a very strong line in opposition to the position that the Canadian government was taking. We heard those positions and took them into consideration.

I think we all agree with you concerning what is presently taking place in the Balkans. I had the opportunity to go to Macedonia a couple of years ago. Clearly nobody wants to see that country dissolve the way other events have.

We watched Mr. Djukanovic and what is happening in that part of the Republic of Serbia as well.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Those sensitivities come right down to the lowest common denominator—the representative in the hometown. Because if we're talking about Macedonia, if we're talking Serbs, if we're talking about the Jews and the Palestinians, we have them in our ridings.

It boils right down to your community. They're ever watchful to make sure that you're presenting a balanced point of view, that you're not necessarily coming out too strongly on one side over the other, because the member may be misinformed.

The Chair: Could I go back to Ms. Augustine for a question? Then Mr. Moore.

• 1745

Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also want to welcome the chairman and the delegation.

I notice that Mr. Safronov is a member of the State Duma Committee on Culture and Tourism. I'm very interested in that topic, and would like to hear from you how your committee approaches the whole issue of culture in the Parliament. What are some of the policies? What are some of the examples of the work of the committee? Perhaps you could speak to the issue of culture.

Mr. Vitaly Aleksandrovich Safronov (Member, State Duma Committee on Culture and Tourism, Communist Party of the Russian Federation Faction, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: Mr. Moore, then maybe me.

Mr. James Moore: Very good, thank you.

Given the increasing view, particularly in Russia, that individual productivity is the source of collective prosperity, and the prospect of a session to the World Trade Organization, there's concern here through a story that had prominent place in one of Canada's two national newspapers regarding NoreX Petroleum Limited.

Investor confidence in Russia, it would be safe to say, is very low. As we go into discussions regarding the World Trade Organization, the treatment of companies like Barrick Gold Corporation, Archangel Diamond Corporation, and specifically NoreX Petroleum Limited.

• 1750

Alex Rotzang, who is the chief executive officer of this company, came before a Senate committee about a month ago. This was reported in the Globe and Mail one week ago. Commenting on the fact that in 1990, 35 Alberta companies were active in Russia and today only NoreX and one other company are, he said:

My strong opinion is that Russia is not welcoming to investors. Their understanding is that investment is something like, “Bring your money in, get out, and never come back again.” They are saying that they are welcoming investors, but I don't see anything in practical terms that is done to even allow investment to function properly.

Given the desire to have more free trade and the desire, I would assume, to join the World Trade Organization, how will you address the policy deficiencies and public relations problems these sorts of cases have brought up, and what specific reforms are you going to bring to bear?

Mr. Mikhail Emelyanov: [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: Madame Romanchuk.

Ms. Antonina Ivanovna Romanchuk (Member, State Duma Committee on Budget and Taxes, Unity Faction, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: I will give you what is called a sibylline answer, I think. The government's official position is clear: until we have been asked by the United States to participate, there is no reason for the Government of Canada to make a policy decision on whether to participate or not. We have not been officially asked, and so, to some extent, we are still at the discussion stage.

• 1755

In the discussion stage, I think it would be fair to say opinion is divided among two groups of people. There are those who feel strongly that if the United States decides to go ahead with this program, Canada's security has largely been linked with that of the United States' for some 50 years, through NATO, but also through NORAD and other arrangements, and it would be natural for us to participate in that program, and that this would be a natural part of our defence since we are very closely allied with the United States, which is our closest ally and neighbour and a country with which we have very extensive economic links.

The other opinion, which many of us also share, is that we understand the purpose of NMD. I put this, if you like, to my American colleagues last weekend when some of us were meeting with them, and I would say some of them—Senator Leahy was one—would say basically what I am saying now, that if the purpose of NMD is to increase security, it must increase security, and if in fact it leads to an increased arms race, such as that Chairman Seleznev proposed to us earlier, then it will not be increasing security, it will be increasing insecurity. That is, therefore, what we are trying to wrestle with in the Canadian Parliament: will this increase security or not?

To some extent that will depend on the reaction of our European partners, on the reaction of Russia, and on the reaction of China, and we must look to all of those. Before the Government of Canada makes a decision, the Prime Minister has said there will be a debate in our House of Commons. I suspect there will be a consultation with these committees, probably with the defence and foreign affairs committees, and then a decision will be made by the government, after fully canvassing what I would call those two points of view. So we haven't made up our mind yet—that is the short answer—but we're debating it.

I'm going to quickly ask a question of the chairman. We're allowed to go for a couple of minutes over, I'm told. Protocol will keep you there. I know you're pointing at two minutes.

Could you tell us very quickly how you see the role of the CIS parliament?

Second, you mentioned AIDS as being a health problem. You know Canada is cooperating with Russia on the AIDS issue, and we'd like to help as much as we can. What we read in our papers is that your prison system is creating a huge AIDS problem for many people. Is the parliament looking at that to see what they can do about it?

Mr. Gennady Seleznev: [Witness speaks in Russian]

• 1800

The Chair: I'm going to apologize to Mr. Richardson.... Okay, one question. I thought you wanted to go.

Mr. Igor Matveevich Khankoyev (Member, State Duma Committee on Health Protection and Sports, People's Deputy Faction, State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation): [Witness speaks in Russian]

The Chair: One would have to be a complete expert in the relationship between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, but I think we expect that with the chairmanships of the key committees in the Senate being in the hands of the Democratic Party, there would be somewhat more sympathy towards the United Nations. I think you will see the Senate more receptive to issues like arms control and other issues than it was when it was in the hands of the Republican majority.

I don't know what the result would be in respect of international trade matters. It could be either way. A lot depends on the individual chairs. The individual chairs are very powerful in the United States system, and quite often they don't respond to party lines. They can be quite individualistic in their approaches. I'm not giving you a good answer, but we're trying to figure that out ourselves at the moment.

Mr. Richardson.

Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I have been with our friends from Russia today, and I think back to when I was going to university and some of my professors were from Russia, after the Second World War. We had the chance to get the brilliance of those people who came to teach us at university level.

I notice that now you're getting control of the beautiful country you have, the natural resources that go with it, and the skilled labour force that's in your land. I hope to get to see it some day. The closest I got was being grabbed by the neck on the East German border, but it was a mistake on my part going into that area.

I think the world is there for you. There are such good operations, good education, good natural resources, and good contacts—and it is the biggest country in the world.

• 1805

I want to say that I thank you for the time with you today. I appreciate your country very much.

The Chair: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, we should end on that note, although I would like to leave our member from culture with one observation.

You know, CIDA was very happy to help with the Hermitage Museum. We have a very important exhibit from the Hermitage Museum in Toronto at the moment, at the AGO. You might be amused, Mr. Chairman, to know that this morning I got in the mail a solicitation for funds to help with the Hermitage Museum. So we're very interested in cultural events in Russia, and we'd like to help as much as we can.

We want to thank you very much for coming, Mr. Chairman. We appreciate it.

Senator Marcel Prud'homme (La Salle, Ind.): Thank you for allowing me here for the first time.

The Chair: Thank you, Senator.

We are adjourned.