JUST Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 29, 2002

»

1700

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.))

Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Mr. Derek Lee

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Mr. Derek Lee

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Mr. Derek Lee

The Vice Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Vietnamese Minister of Justice) (Interpretation)

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1710

»

1715

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

»

1720

Mr. Derek Lee

»

1725

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation)

»

1730

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

»

1735

Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ)

»

1740

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Mr. Derek Lee

Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation)

»

1745

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc

»

1750

»

1755

¼

1800

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay)

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights

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NUMBER 093

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, May 29, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

»  (1700)  

[English]

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.)): I call the 93rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order.

    Mr. Lee.

    Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.): Colleagues from the Subcommittee on National Security, I want to report our consideration of vote 10, the estimates for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. We are reporting back to the main committee as our first report. We've considered them, and we're reporting them back as is.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): So you're tabling that report with the committee?

    Mr. Derek Lee: That's correct.

    The clerk has a copy. It's been signed. I understand this committee will not be formally reporting back to the House. The committee will go with the deeming provisions of the Standing Orders. That's just fine. But I did want to complete our subcommittee work, and record it on the record. So we've reported it.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): Fine.

    Is there any debate or discussion? So it's received.

    Second item.

    Mr. Derek Lee: The members of the subcommittee have been advised of a very, very interesting conference of the International Association of Airport and Seaport Police. This is happening in New York and New Jersey on June 24 to 27.

    From both the opposition and the government side, several members of the subcommittee would very much want to participate and attend the conference. In the past, the committee has arranged on a random basis for its members to attend conferences relevant to the committee's work. I don't have a motion to move, but I want to—

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): We also don't have a quorum.

    Mr. Derek Lee: Yes, but I want to get it on the record, and ask the committee to consider approving and taking steps to authorize travel by members of the subcommittee—let's say for a maximum of four members—to this conference in New York on June 24 to 27. The registration fees are very high, at $750 U.S. for non-members of that group.

    I haven't taken this up with the chair. I just wanted to get it in....

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): So you're tabling a motion. We've received the motion. Then presumably you'll bring it back up when we have a quorum.

    Mr. Derek Lee: Yes, let's describe it that way.

    The conference is on June 24.

    Mr. Sorenson is anxious for expedited consideration.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): I just thought Mr. Sorenson had changed sides.

    Mr. Derek Lee: So we will bring this up at the first available meeting. Take this as notice. I'll leave a copy with the clerk.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): We take it as notice. Thank you.

    The meeting is suspended.

»  (1701)  

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»  (1707)  

    The Vice Chair (Mr. John McKay): I call this meeting to order and welcome our colleagues from Vietnam.

    Welcome to Canada. This is unusually warm for Canada, but I know, having travelled in Vietnam, that this is nothing at all, that you probably feel quite cold.

    Remarkably, both myself and Mr. Lee have both been in Vietnam. I was there about three years ago, and Derek about two years ago, I think.

    Mr. Minister, and your delegation, you're more than welcome to our committee.

    I understand you wish to make a statement, which we'd like to listen to, and then we'll try to explain the work of the committee. I want to apologize in advance, because we may have a vote in the House and we'll all have to leave to go and vote.

    In any event, please make your statement.

    Thank you, and welcome.

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Vietnamese Minister of Justice) (Interpretation): Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Vietnamese Minister of Justice) (Interpretation)Thank you, Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen. It is my great honour to speak before you today. My visit has a specific objective.

»  (1710)  

    Today is the fourth day of my visit to Canada. The four days have proved to be very useful for me. There are two or three more days remaining in my visit to Canada and I hope that I will have more interesting days in Canada.

    My visit to Canada has been sponsored by the United Nations Development Program, in order to assist Vietnam in building up a legal framework for reforms that have taken place in Vietnam since 1986.

    In the last three legislatures, more than 300 laws, ordinances, and resolutions of the National Assembly have been adopted. I can say that those years have been very productive in terms of the law-making agenda. And the number of laws and ordinances adopted in the last 15 years is three times more than the total number of laws and ordinances adopted in the previous 40 years. We consider those activities as a part of our reform process.

    In terms of substance, I think the legal framework has created an environmental framework for the operation of a market economy with a socialist orientation and for building a rule of law in socialism, a rule-of-law state for the people, by the people. However, what we have achieved is only the initial result of our reform process. Vietnam is one of the poorest countries in the world, among the 40 poorest countries in the world, and we are in transition. We have a number of problem issues arising, and the task before us in the next 20 years is to bring about a Vietnam that is modern, civilized, industrialized, and that integrates into the international community.

    In terms of legislative and judicial activities, even though we have achieved a degree of progress, we need to intensify our efforts. With assistance provided by UNDP, United Nations Development Program, the World Bank, and other countries in the world, we are assessing the current status of the legal system in order to develop a strategy for the development of our legal system in the next ten years. And the priority areas are to build up the elements necessary for a market economy, improve the professionalism of state apparatuses operating under the rule of law, maximize economic resources in terms of the priority of integrating into the world economy.

    The future legal system will certainly be better and improved substantially. As we often say, we will have a fair and open legal system. In order to be a market economy with a socialist orientation it requires strengthening the rule of law.

»  (1715)  

    We are trying to accomplish the assessment of our current legal system. An assessment report has been tabled to an international conference, with the participation of many donors—bankers in other countries, from Europe and Asia, as well as from North America.

    One of the tasks in implementing our future strategy is to learn to be aware of the experiences of other countries where they have accumulated a number of experiences in building a market economy. In those cases we have found Canada, a member of the G-7 group, where 40% of the GDP comes from trade—export and import activities—and where trade with the U.S. has been very, very dynamic.

    We are trying to integrate into the international community life, and we understand that is a big challenge for us. However, our political inclination is to be proactive in international integration.

    One of the steps of this process is the bilateral trade agreement with the U.S., which has been ratified by our National Assembly. We are negotiating for WTO membership and hope to become a member in a couple of years.

    In that context we think of Canada, from which a major experience is in terms of trade.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): Thank you, Minister. We appreciate your statement.

    We in Canada of course are great believers in the rule of law.

    I think it would be appropriate that we share some of our experiences and tell you what it is we do at this committee. Then I'm going to call on my colleague, Mr. Lee, to make a few comments on his experiences in Vietnam.

    The mandate of this committee is to review the actions of the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General. If you were the Minister of Justice in Canada, you'd have to come here.

    We can also initiate studies or be mandated by Parliament to initiate studies.

    At the present time we're dealing with matters pertaining to corporate liability and an act to amend the Divorce Act. Recently we dealt with the youth justice bill. It took us almost seven years to get that through. We dealt with a terrorism bill that was very controversial, extremely difficult legislation for this committee. We've dealt also with an animal cruelty bill that is also fairly controversial.

    We are also undertaking a review of the mental disorder provisions in the Criminal Code. This applies to situations where people are unfit to stand trial, or where they have some form of mental disorder that renders them incapable of committing a crime. We also look after correctional services and have recently completed a study in that area.

    It's a brief window to all of the things we do. This is probably one of the busiest committees on Parliament Hill, if not the busiest. We find a lot of the issues that come before us very difficult. The atmosphere in the committee is a good one, notwithstanding the fact that we come from a variety of parties.

    If I may, I'll call on Mr. Lee.

»  (1720)  

    Mr. Derek Lee: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and a very warm welcome to the visitors from Vietnam.

    As you know, Canada is very supportive of the initiative of the Government of Vietnam to modernize its legal structures and laws. I know we exchange views from time to time on issues of economic development, human rights, and the rule of law.

    As the chairman has pointed out, I had the pleasure of visiting Vietnam and participating in seminars related to the development of your electoral system, your election, and the system of governance within your National Assembly.

    The subject of your visit is an enforcement of judgments, international economic integration, and dispute resolution. This is what we've been told. This particular committee does not do dispute resolution, but many of the institutions we supervise have their own dispute resolution mechanisms. Some of those include the regular courts in our judicial system. We have a Human Rights Commission that does dispute resolution. We have a commissioner for information and a commissioner for privacy for citizens, who can do dispute resolution in those areas. We have a complaints mechanism for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. There was even a correctional investigator to deal with disputes involving inmates of our prisons.

    Canada, in our system, has built many dispute resolution mechanisms into each of the institutions of government. I suppose occasionally, when there is no dispute resolution mechanism, the matter becomes political. We as politicians sometimes take up the issues at our committee or in the House of Commons.

    I'll stop there. I hope you will have a successful and fruitful visit to Canada. I believe you will probably visit other countries as well. I hope you're having a good tour.

»  (1725)  

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): Minister, we would be pleased to entertain questions or we'd be pleased to ask questions. Possibly other members of your delegation wish to intervene or other colleagues on our committee. I think this is an opportunity for us to exchange information and questions.

    Maybe you can start off. Perhaps there are some inquiries you have of us as to how this committee actually functions.

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation): Mr. Lee, I have been informed by the vice-chairman about the operation of this committee, and its operation and activities so far have been very interesting to me. I am pleased to see the common interests of our National Assembly and your House of Commons.

    I've just spent one hour observing the question period of the House, and I'm glad to say our National Assembly sometimes has the same reaction to the government as the MPs in Canada. As an MP of the National Assembly of Vietnam and a member of the cabinet, I think the members of cabinet in Canada have just gone through a tough question.

    I just want to raise one issue. For example, you just mentioned about a bill regarding border management, a border management bill.

    An hon. member: On terrorism?

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John MacKay): The same thing? Yes.

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation): Okay.

    One of the issues of concern to our National Assembly in Vietnam, for example, is land belonging to the whole nation, and the land law in Vietnam needs to be changed very soon in order to facilitate the operation of a market economy and to make clear the regime on ownership. In this regard, Canada has had much experience.

    Another issue that I mention here is the civil code of Vietnam, which is being revised. I'd like to inform you that when we were drafting the first civil code of Vietnam, we translated the Quebec civil code into Vietnamese. Since coming to Canada, we have been mentioning the convergence of common law and civil law. That is the reason we want to learn about Canada's experiences. One of the questions we might raise here is, in combining the two legal traditions, what difficulties do you often face?

    In Vietnam, to some extent we continue to be a civil law country, not only because of the fact that we have been influenced for a hundred years by the Napoleonic Code, but historically Vietnam has a civil law tradition.

    In the 15th century we had a code containing 722 articles. Recently, Harvard Law School translated this code into English for teaching purposes in America, and the dean of Harvard Law School praised highly this code that was adopted in the 15th century in Vietnam because the code had included a number of very progressive ideas and principles that can be compatible with the current rules.

»  (1730)  

    However, when we signed a bilateral trade agreement with the U.S., which has a very developed common law system, one of the issues that confronted us is how to make use of the common law advantages in the trade area at least in such a way to allow our lawyers and our businesses to be not unfamiliar with the operation of common law in the U.S. Our businessmen are not only operating in Vietnam but also need to be able to operate in the U.S.

    Another issue of concern to us is that at the beginning of the process of doing business with the U.S., while the ink to sign the bilateral agreement was not yet dry, we already faced obstacles. A high tariff was put on our catfish, despite the fact that the U.S. always stresses the liberalization of trade.

    This was also used as a tool, for example, in imposing the high tariff forest deal on Canada. In Hanoi we have read about the softwood lumber case.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): I hope you're more successful than we are in negotiating with the Americans.

»  (1735)  

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation): I'd like to inform you that one Canadian lawyer advises us that in settling business with the U.S. we must try to avoid conflict or displeasure.

    Seeing that we are a small country, it is very difficult to face a dispute with the U.S. Moreover, American businessmen are very litigious people who have a lot of lawyers. Given these facts, we are not in an easy condition or context. Therefore, we would like our Canadian colleagues to share experiences in doing business with the U.S. in order to ensure the mutual benefits for the two countries.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): I think you'll find that Canada is not nearly as litigious as the United States, and you might find a more comfortable legal home in Canada than you would in the United States.

    When I was in Hanoi I met with our representatives in the embassy, and they were doing a lot of translating and codification of Vietnamese civil law. Indeed, that was quite a project on our part to try to help the Vietnamese update their civil law.

[Translation]

    Mr. Lanctôt is a member from Quebec

[English]

    and he comes from a civil law jurisdiction. Robert, do you want to comment at all?

[Translation]

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ): You can already see the difference: the language is different, and the perception as well. You have already noted that there is a great difference with regard to justice. We do not work with common law, but with civil law.

    Thus, not only is the language different, but also our laws and our justice. In these matters, civil law is applied and not common law. Besides, we made a big change, because we also used to have the Napoleonic Code in the beginning. We now have a renewed and very up-to-date Quebec Civil Code.

    Let me explain the other reasons why we are here in Ottawa. We belong to a sovereignist political party and our candidates only stand for elections in the 75 Quebec ridings. Our candidates do not stand for elections anywhere else in Canada. The majority of Quebec members belong to the Bloc Québécois.

    I hope that you will come to visit us at the Quebec National Assembly to note the cultural difference. Quebec is the only place in the Americas where the majority of the population speaks French. There's also a large contingent of anglophones, who work with us and whom we respect. What we are aiming to do here is more or less what I am trying to do now, namely to show that there are differences. We are also working for sovereignty, and the interests of Quebeckers are our top priority. We also want to demonstrate, during our discussions with the members of Parliament, that it would be to the advantage of both parties if Quebec became a country just like Canada and the two countries could work on an equal footing towards common goals to do what is needed to ensure our international success. This is the objective that we're pursuing.

    These were the comments I wanted to make today. Thank you.

»  (1740)  

[English]

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): Colleagues, is there... Chuck.

    Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    On behalf of the Canadian Alliance, which is the official opposition in the Canadian Parliament, I'd like to welcome you to Canada and specifically to this justice committee. My colleagues around this table here all come from what we call eastern Canada. I'm actually from British Columbia. I'm not sure which route you took to get here, but if you flew out of Vancouver or into Vancouver, you probably flew over my house.

    I've served on this committee since 1997, since I was first elected, and I've found it to be a well-functioning committee. We certainly have our disagreements and differences of opinion occasionally, but by and large I feel very privileged to serve with my colleagues on this committee, because we do get some work done, contrary to what some people would like to believe.

    You mentioned that you spent an hour in the House. I'm assuming that was during question period, which unfortunately many of our constituents view as what we do here--what they see on the news of question period. I would submit that the real work, at least as far as I'm concerned, is done around a table like this.

    I'll just conclude my comments by alluding to what you mentioned: the problems or some of the perceptions you have in dealing with the U.S. and tariffs. As you may know, the primary resource in British Columbia is the forest industry, and we in British Columbia are bearing the brunt of the softwood lumber problem right now. It's costing thousands of jobs in my home province. So I can definitely sympathize with some of the issues you're talking about, and if you folks happen to figure out a way to deal with it, we'd be glad to talk to you about it.

    Thanks very much, and welcome.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): Derek.

    Mr. Derek Lee: I was going to ask, is it still the case that in Vietnam it is still a one-party electoral system? Is there one political party representation in the assembly?

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation): Within our national assembly, in addition to the members of the party there are non-party members. The other members represent religious groups and ethnic minority groups. We have more than fifty ethnic minority groups, but not all groups have representatives in the National Assembly.

    During the reform process we encouraged people to take the initiative to stand for elections. In this regard, we have policies and guidelines to democratize our legislative work in order to allow our National Assembly to be the real representative of the people, to be the highest audience of Vietnam.

    In each session of the National Assembly, at least two days are devoted for questioning the members of the cabinet, including the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. Those question periods are covered in full by the Vietnamese television, so that a group in any corner of the country may observe the questioning. I think that time is very exciting for Vietnamese.

    Through the question and answer sessions, many constituents raise questions through their MPs in order to pass a question to the member of the cabinet. Many MPs answer questions and also raise issues of responsibility of the cabinet members.

    At the end of 2001 our National Assembly revised the Constitution. One of the very important amendments is the rights of the MPs to raise issues relating to liability, removal, or dismissal of the cabinet members and other officials appointed by the National Assembly. This was to raise the role of the National Assembly and to enhance the responsibilities of the cabinet members.

    Today I had time to observe one hour of the question period of your House. I have seen the replies from the government side. I appreciate the fact that Prime Minister Jean Chrétien stood several times to answer the questions, and MPs were not easygoing toward the Prime Minister. So that shows the very democratic nature of your House.

»  (1745)  

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): We certainly are vigorous at times, yes.

    This is a justice committee, and it also looks into issues pertaining to human rights. One of the issues that comes up to us has to do with religious rights. From time to time we hear of difficulties in Vietnam with respect to minority religious rights. I wonder if you would be prepared to comment on how religious minorities are treated in Vietnam.

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation): As I mentioned earlier, we have more than fifty ethnic minority groups in Vietnam. Apart from the Viet or the Kinh, they're a majority in Vietnam. This is a tradition of the Vietnamese people that is different from other countries. There have been no such religious wars among Vietnamese ethnic minority groups.

    They see the North Vietnamese as though we have no spirit to fight against invaders. We live side by side with China, and that is the practice. There is no regime in China that has not attacked Vietnam, and not only in order to occupy more land. We stand firmly up to now because of our solidarity policy.

    During the Li dynasty a thousand years ago—or more precisely, 700 or 800 years ago—there was a policy that is in place now, the policy of being soft towards the distant people; that is, the people who live far away from the centre, near the borders. The princess of the king had been offered in marriage to a wise man of a minority group in order to enrich the country.

    In the wars of Vietnam, France dominated Vietnam for more than a hundred years, and the French tried to divide Vietnam in order to maintain their domination. In order to fight against such a policy, we introduced the policy on national solidarity. That is solidarity between the majority and the minority groups, and among the minority groups. Our former president, Ho Chi Minh, who introduced the policy and slogans of solidarity, is recognized for that.

    In the renovation process, if there were no solidarity policy, we could not have accomplished such a success. From the time when the country each year had to import more than 100 tonnes of rice, we initiated the liberalization policy among the farmers, Vietnam has become one of the largest rice exporters in the world, the second-largest after Thailand.

    I may talk about the same situation in rubber, cashews, coffee. Those agricultural products are very much linked to the ethnic minority groups. We are number three in the world in terms of coffee exporters. In cashews we're number one, etc.

    In the first place, I want to say that the information on discrimination and poor treatment of the ethnic minorities on the grounds of belief or freedom is misleading or incorrect. There are even people who want to politicize issues. Ethnic minority groups in Vietnam live in remote areas, mountainous areas. In the renovation years we have pledged variety for those people.

»  (1750)  

    It is not accidental that the United Nations has ranked Vietnam first in the world in poverty alleviation, and the World Bank, the IMF, and other international financial institutions have given priority in funding our policies to alleviate or eliminate poverty, particularly in the areas where the ethnic minority groups live.

    Discrimination is something we all know of in our thinking. Of course, certainly there might be government officials in some localities who fail to perform effective government policy on ethnic minorities, but we cannot consider those single acts as the government policy.

    I've just finished a meeting with Mr. David Kilgour, and I talked about all the issues regarding central highlanders, of whom there was talk about their mistreatment or discrimination. But I would like to stress and confirm again here that the central highland is the place where birth was given in the struggle for our country, including in the northwest region, where a lot of ethnic minority groups live, and the central highland area. I would like to say there are very close links, blood links, between the government and the ethnic minority groups. So that is natural.

    A lot of people following the regime know that holding a position in the government must bring respect back to the place. However, there are cases in which people try to mislead the situation.

    For some, there is a physical movement of people from one place to another. When China attacked Vietnam in 1979 and the tension at border areas lasted for a couple of years, a great number of ethnic minority groups moved from the north to the central highland. Of course, when they arrived there they tried to take over the land.

»  (1755)  

    The land in the central highlands of Vietnam is very unique. It is very good for cultivation or planting rubber and coffee. When we opened up for a market economy, farmers from many corners of the country tried to come to the central highlands to grow rubber or coffee. Of course, there was a problem with lands, as the central highlanders tended to live in a very backward situation. On the other hand, the farmers from other parts of the country might have had better experiences. They came and bought the land from the central highlanders, who were very eager to sell the land and then to move to the remote jungle. Therefore, 10,000 hectares of land devoted to rubber and coffee plantations have been developed.

    One may question whether it is the policy of the government to take over the land of the central highlanders, or a natural process of the operations of a market economy, or the movement of an ethnic minority from the north to the south, forced as a result of the direct impact of the tension between China and Vietnam. As you know, in 1979 China attacked Vietnam for some days. But the tension between the two countries lasted for many years in the border areas. In the war situation, people living near the northern border had to leave and move to the central highlands.

¼  (1800)  

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): I know you and your delegation are under a very tight timeline, and you have other people to see. So I want to thank you for your graciousness in coming to our committee and sharing this hour with us. It's always good when legislators can exchange views, even those from very different legal traditions. I want to thank you very much for coming. It has been most helpful.

    Dr. Nguyen Dinh Loc (Interpretation): I would like to thank the chairman and all the colleagues for this opportunity to exchange views and information. Through the exchange of information, I think we have a better understanding of each other. We always want to be a friend of the Canadian people, who, during the development of Vietnam and the development of peace, have shown sympathy. Hopefully, our cooperation will develop in our visit.

    I extend our invitation to you to visit the people of Vietnam.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. John McKay): Maybe we could do this in Vietnam sometime. That would be a travel budget.

    The meeting is adjourned.