LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, December 2, 2002

¹

1535

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

º

1635

Hon. Wayne Easter (Solicitor General of Canada)

º

1640

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Wayne Easter

Inspector Robert Boulet (Executive Diplomatic Protection Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

Mr. Scott Reid

Insp Robert Boulet

º

1645

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Wayne Easter

Mr. Marc Tremblay (General Counsel and Director, Department of Official Languages Law Group, Department of Justice)

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marc Tremblay

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marc Tremblay

º

1650

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marc Tremblay

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

º

1655

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marc Tremblay

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marc Tremblay

»

1700

Mr. Wayne Easter

The Chair

Insp Robert Boulet

The Chair

Insp Robert Boulet

The Chair

Insp Robert Boulet

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Wayne Easter

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

»

1705

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marc Tremblay

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marc Tremblay

»

1710

Mr. Wayne Easter

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marc Tremblay

The Chair

Insp Robert Boulet

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

The Chair

»

1715

Mr. Wayne Easter

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Marc Tremblay

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Easter

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Easter

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marc Tremblay

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

»

1720

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Insp Robert Boulet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Wayne Easter

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Wayne Easter

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Wayne Easter

The Chair

»

1725

Mr. Wayne Easter

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

---

NUMBER 004

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Monday, December 2, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1535)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Order, please.

    Mr. Easter, thank you very much for appearing before us today. On behalf of the committee members, I wish to express our thanks to you and your office for having been more than accommodating with two or three days' notice. I know you've changed many things around in your agenda this afternoon to appear before us, and we're much obliged.

    This is the first--perhaps the last, or maybe not--meeting on an issue that has been brought up by one of our members. It concerns the issuing of unilingual tickets by the RCMP in the national capital region.

    Minister, we'd invite you to make your statement, after which we'll proceed with the usual session of questions. I gather you may be here for only 45 minutes or so, so we'll do our best.

º  (1635)  

    Hon. Wayne Easter (Solicitor General of Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be here for half an hour, I believe.

[Translation]

    Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. [Editor's note: inaudible]... this afternoon.

[English]

    Mr. Chairman, I'm limited in what I can say, given some of the information. I'll just go through the reasons for that.

    Justice is currently conducting a review of existing agreements with provinces under the Contraventions Act with respect to language rights. Justice also advises that several cases involving almost identical facts are currently before the Commissioner of Official Languages for review. It does, I think, as you would recognize, create some problems in terms of how much liberty we have for what we can discuss.

    In any event, as minister, I'm of the strong opinion, even though there may be some things that we may not be able to get into in the kind of detail you would like, that a minister should be obligated to come before the committee and to hear what you have to say, as well. I firmly believe that is an important part of a minister's responsibilities. For that reason, rather than not come for soft reasoning, I decided it was important to be here.

    With me is RCMP Inspector Rob Boulet, who will answer questions, and our legal adviser, Marc Tremblay.

    I have a short statement, Mr. Chair, and then we will move to questions. I want to spell out in my statement the facts as they relate to the ticketing issue and the bilingualism question. I'll go through the points.

    The RCMP operating in the national capital region is fully committed to official bilingualism and providing services to the public in both official languages. The RCMP works with the Commissioner of Official Languages and continually reviews programs and resources to ensure that service delivery meets the requirement of the Official Languages Act. They also ensure that bilingual staff are fully integrated into RCMP law enforcement where required. This includes the national capital region.

    I have been advised that the RCMP complies with the appropriate provincial legislation regarding the issuance of tickets in a manner consistent with the law.

     This compliance is not only applicable in Quebec but is equally carried out in all provinces across Canada. I've been assured that bilingual guidance is provided on tickets in Quebec, and that RCMP officers enforcing traffic laws within the national capital region can provide services, as requested or needed, in both official languages.

    The government is committed to public safety and service delivery in both official languages. To this end the RCMP, as our national police force, provides bilingual law enforcement, while respecting the requirements of both federal and provincial laws.

    With that, Mr. Chair, I will open it up to questions. I know you're dealing with a specific issue, so Mr. Boulet, Mr. Tremblay, and I will do our best to answer the questions you have.

    Thank you.

º  (1640)  

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Reid for seven minutes.

[Translation]

    Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Good afternoon,  Minister. I would like to welcome you to our committee and congratulate you on your new position as Solicitor General of Canada.

[English]

    I want to just run over a review of the line of questioning I undertook in the House of Commons. In response to a question I asked on November 1, your parliamentary secretary said, “The RCMP complies with provincial legislation regarding the issuance of tickets.”

    In saying that, I think he was referring to the Contraventions Act, subsection 65.2(2), which states:

The Minister may enter into an agreement with the government of a province or with any provincial, municipal or local authority

regarding such matters as the form of tickets.

    The Official Languages Act, section 22, reads as follows:

Every federal institution has the duty to ensure that any member of the public can communicate with and obtain available services from its head or central office in either official language, and has the same duty with respect to any of its other offices or facilities(a) within the National Capital Region;

    It further states, and I'm now reading section 82 of the act:

In the event of any inconsistency between the following Parts and any other Act of Parliament or regulation thereunder, the following Parts prevail to the extent of the inconsistency:

    It then cites part IV, referring to communications with and service to the public. I note, for your information, that section 22 of the Official Languages Act is under part IV.

    I would argue that this presents a prima facie case that the relevant part of the Contraventions Act has no force or effect, which means it is unlawful under the Official Languages Act for tickets to be issued anywhere in the national capital region in other than both official languages.

    Would you agree with me?

    Mr. Wayne Easter: I'll turn it over to Mr. Boulet.

    Inspector Robert Boulet (Executive Diplomatic Protection Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Mr. Tremblay might also wish to assist.

    On the specifics of your question, the RCMP provides the tickets in the direction agreed upon in agreements between the Minister of Justice from the province of Quebec, as well as the Minister of Justice for the government. So that is what we act upon in that manner.

    As mentioned by the minister, the oral interaction between the officer and the civilian, of course, is in a bilingual format, and in the choice of language of the civilian.

    Mr. Scott Reid: I understand that. This is with reference to the language of the tickets themselves. I have copies of the relevant tickets here, and they are in French only. By contrast, the tickets issued on the Ottawa side of the national capital region are bilingual in form, unless I'm mistaken.

    Have they been changed? Or are they still in the unilingual French-only form today?

    Insp Robert Boulet: That is correct.

º  (1645)  

    Mr. Scott Reid: They are still. Okay.

    Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Chair, perhaps Mr. Tremblay could also respond.

    Mr. Marc Tremblay (General Counsel and Director, Department of Official Languages Law Group, Department of Justice): I'd like to take us back a couple of steps. There are a couple of legal propositions that you're advancing, Mr. Reid.

    The first point I would like to make is that the Contraventions Act does not only provide for the conclusion of agreements with the provinces; it provides, first and foremost, for a legislative basis for the incorporation by reference into federal law of provincial legislation. Incorporation by reference is a well-known and often-used technique whose validity has been recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada on a number of occasions.

    Mr. Scott Reid: But does that, or does it not, cause it to therefore not be in conflict with the act in a way that causes section 82 of the act to override any legislation? I think that's the relevant question. It seems to me that unless you pass in the Contraventions Act something saying that the agreements the federal government may enter into with the province with regarding to ticketing override the Official Languages Act, it doesn't matter what the Contraventions Act says.

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: If there were indeed a conflict between one and the other act, that provision of the Official Languages Act, section 82, would indeed have effect. However, we need to go back to other case law, and I'll take you directly to it at this point.

    In a number of cases, the courts have dealt with arguments to the same effect, that in the context of either a police action or of the court process more directly, there were various rights, either under the Constitution or the Official Languages Act, that came into effect. And in effect, what the court has told us is that under our constitutional regime, given that we have section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867, as one of the fundamental tests in our regime, there is a distinction that must be made between the judicial process, which includes, for present purposes, information indictment tickets. They have all been held to be documents or processes that are linked not to the issue of services, although they may otherwise have been qualified as such, but that are dealt with under our constitutional order as part of the judicial process.

    Mr. Scott Reid: Wouldn't what you're saying be a contradiction to the reasoning of Judge Blais in his decision of last year, in which he concludes that when tickets are being issued, they in fact have to be...? He was citing an example. It was a little bit different. It was provincial officers issuing tickets for federal offences, rather than the reverse, as I understand it. I'm assuming you're familiar with this case.

    Doesn't that effectively mean that the Official Languages Act simply overrides other considerations, in the case of contraventions and the issuing of tickets? Isn't there already a precedent to this effect?

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: With respect, Mr. Reid, the Contraventions Act decision of Judge Blais of March 2001 did not deal directly with the issue of language of tickets. To my knowledge, it did not. That may be because in Ontario we have a legal situation that prevails, in which the province has judicial bilingualism, in effect, through its provincial legislation.

    The court did deal with two relevant issues or two similar issues. Again, you're quite correct in pointing out that it did, in some respects, tell us that when the federal government is offering services and is using the provinces as third parties acting on its behalf--that's the legal jargon that's used in the Official Languages Act--when we're using the provinces to offer our services, we, the federal government, must ensure that the public's right to services in either English or French is respected, be that through agreements or legislation, however it may be.

     The court also had a ruling on sections 530 and 530.1 of the Criminal Code, but they stand on a different footing. I would argue that is the parallel to be drawn here.

    Section 530 has a relative cousin under the Criminal Code provisions in section 841.3. The provisions deal with language rights in the judicial context. In the Contraventions Act case, Justice Blais did find, in a separate finding from the one that had to do with services, that the Contraventions Act regime needed to guarantee that the quasi-constitutional rights provided for in the Criminal Code, insofar as prosecutions in Ontario were concerned, would have to be maintained.

º  (1650)  

    Mr. Scott Reid: I have one last thing. I'm looking at section 195 of the decision. I do note that part IV of the Official Languages Act is actually referred to, as well as the relevant sections that you cited of the Criminal Code.

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: It is, for two separate propositions. One has to do with services and the other has to do with sections 530 and 530.1. You have both a finding on language of services and continuation of the services pursuant to part IV and section 25 of the Official Languages Act, and a finding based on section 16 of the Charter and a continuation of sections 530 and 530.1 of the Criminal Code.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Reid.

    Mr. Bellemare.

[Translation]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Inspector Boulet, have you received directives requiring you to issue tickets in one language only in Quebec?

    Insp Robert Boulet: The RCMP acts in accordance with an agreement that was signed between the Quebec Department of Justice and the federal Department of Justice. The agreement clearly stipulates that we are to prepare the reports on offences on forms provided by the province; these forms are drafted in French only. So that is the procedure we are following at present.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I want to congratulate Mr. Reid for his presentation and for the good research work he did to prepare it. I am going to avoid dealing with the issues that he has already raised.

    In the West, are tickets issued in both languages or in just one language? For example, do Alberta and Saskatchewan have agreements with the RCMP to issue tickets in one language only?

    Insp Robert Boulet: It depends on the province. In Manitoba, for example, tickets are in both languages, whereas in Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, they are in English only. These are areas where the RCMP is working on a contractual basis.

    In that regard, agreements were reached between the Department of Justice and the provinces, and the RCMP must follow the legal procedures of each province where it is involved. Some provinces, like New Brunswick and, if I remember correctly, Nova Scotia, issue tickets in both languages.

    Allow me to further clarify that tickets aside, RCMP members are able to serve people in both languages or can, thanks to procedures that are in force, obtain bilingual service quite quickly.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Inspector, under what authority does the RCMP issue tickets in Quebec, in the National Capital Region?

    Insp Robert Boulet: The RCMP provides services to the NCC and, as you know, the NCC owns land that is located in both Quebec and Ontario. The RCMP provides services on this land specifically.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: So you issue tickets for violations of municipal regulations on NCC land?

º  (1655)  

    Insp Robert Boulet: For offences under the National Capital Act. However, we establish a link with the Contraventions Act.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: My question is for Mr. Tremblay.

    The RCMP acts on behalf of the federal government, and the NCC is a federal body. But if the RCMP gives a motorist a ticket, shouldn't federal rules be followed since the incident took place on federal land? The RCMP comes under federal jurisdiction, and the offence committed involves a federal agency. Why are you required to use forms from a body that is not federal, in this case the province of Quebec?

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: This is a very important question, Mr. Bellemare. If I may, I'm going to go back to the notion of incorporation by reference.

    The reason why we use not only provincial tickets but the province's ticketing system could be summarized in one word: "federalism". The Supreme Court, the courts and our Constitution all agree that federal-provincial cooperation is justified. Otherwise, two or three different acts or regulations could apply to the same area.

    The courts have told us that it is possible for the federal government to adopt legislation that would set speed limits for the promenade du Lac-des-Fées. Federal legislation would be in force, but at the end of the federal road, the provincial Contraventions Act would suddenly apply. As for the driver, he would not necessarily be aware of the fact that he's moved from one system of law to another. For these reasons, the court has told us that incorporation by reference of provincial legislation is a legitimate constitutional objective, which means that the federal government can use provincial legislation in force in a given area or territory, notwithstanding the field of jurisdiction. That is what the federal government has done with the Contraventions Act.

    Above all, the Act permits the use of regulations that incorporate provincial acts by reference. In this case, that means that the provincial Code of Penal Procedure and the Highway Safety Code have been incorporated into the federal Contraventions Act, so that a single system of law applies to an area and that the rules used are the Quebec ones.

    Moreover, the court has told us that even in cases where the person involved and the legislative system were subject to federal jurisdiction, it was legitimate to proceed this way, but that it would lead to certain consequences, in other words, that the applicable provincial regime would be put in place in each province.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Do I have time for one last question?

    The Chair: Quickly.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: What would prevent the RCMP from issuing tickets in both languages in Alberta and Quebec?

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: The Contraventions Act regime is what makes that impossible. I am not the official responsible for the matter. Moreover, I am only here today to accompany the minister; I am not the Minister of Justice.

    I can however tell you from the outset that the objective of the Contraventions Act regime was primarily to decriminalize driving; in fact, in the past, the onerousness and the consequences of the Criminal Code could apply to issues as common place as a parking ticket at the airport, even though the person who has been caught illegally parking their vehicle would not have considered the matter trivial. In addition to decriminalizing these offences, the government wanted to relax the rules, in the spirit of cooperation between the federal government and the provinces. Since the provinces already had contravention systems and their own legislation and regulations, they encouraged us to sign these agreements. In fact, the provinces were at the origin of the amendments to the Contraventions Act of 1996.

     They wanted to avoid overlap in the contraventions system. Therefore, the federal government accepted the idea of a contraventions system that would serve two purposes.

    Having said that, the Minister of Justice must take into account Justice Blais's decision of March 2001. Negotiations are underway with Ontario with a view to accomplishing what Justice Blais wanted in this regard with the province. In terms of legal theory, there is the rule of stare decisis and other rules which are such that a decision applies only to the facts themselves. Therefore, under these rules, this decision applies only to Ontario. However, the Department of Justice is looking for a comprehensive way of respecting the spirit of this decision for all Canadian provinces where the Contraventions Act is in force. This work will be done later; we are currently focusing our efforts on an agreement with Ontario, and based on what I have heard, everything is going well.

»  (1700)  

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: On Mr.Bellemare's question, as I understand it the RCMP is bound by the provincial legislation in force in the province in which the ticket is issued. Specifically with regard to Quebec, provincial legislation is clear that any tickets issued under the Contraventions Act are to be in French only. I think I'm correct on that.

    The Chair: Thank you.

[Translation]

    Mr. Boulet, would it be possible to obtain a copy of the agreement that you mentioned that pertains to the Canadian and Quebec Departments of Justice and, if possible, the NCC?

    Insp Robert Boulet: Certainly. With Mr. Tremblay I could...

    The Chair: I would like you to send it to the committee clerk.

    Insp Robert Boulet: I don't have a copy with me right now.

    The Chair: Just send it to us.

    Insp Robert Boulet: Very well.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Guimond, you have the floor.

    Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    This is the first time I have been to the Standing Committee on Official Languages, or rather our new Standing Committee on Official Languages. I'm convinced that if Mr. Reid convinced the committee to study this particular case of traffic tickets, the committee will pay the same amount of attention to all cases where there has been a failure to comply with the Official Languages Act as well as any other issues pertaining to the rights of the francophone minority in Canada, although it may mean that the minister will have to travel, particularly since this is apparently the first time since 1987 that a Solicitor General has appeared before the committee.

    I would like to tell you that I will be reporting the matter to Mr. Sauvageau and I will tell him to concern himself with the agenda for the next few meetings. We will be able to provide you with tons of examples where there has been a failure to comply and where francophone rights have been disregarded here, in Canada.

    Mr. Boulet answered a question that had been raised by Mr. Bellemare; I had intended to ask this very same question. If I were to receive a traffic ticket written in English only in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, or in Whistler, British Columbia, would it be indicated anywhere on the form that this ticket was also available in French? It should be noted that the traffic tickets issued in Gatineau Park do indicate that a copy of the ticket written in English can be obtained at no cost. Is that not right?

    Insp Robert Boulet: That's right; however, according to my information, this is not the case in the other provinces...

    Mr. Michel Guimond: No?

    Insp Robert Boulet: No, it is not indicated anywhere on the traffic tickets that a copy in French can be provided.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: Ah, but...

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: That, of course, is with the exception of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, I believe, where they are bilingual.

    A voice: And Ontario.

[Translation]

    Mr. Michel Guimond: I am sure that Mr. Reid will take up this new challenge.

    My training as a lawyer prompts me to ask questions for which I already know the answer. This approach enables us to ascertain the credibility of witnesses, although this credibility is not being challenged. How many RCMP service points are there throughout Canada?

    Insp Robert Boulet: Service points?

»  (1705)  

    Mr. Michel Guimond: How many service points or detachments are there throughout Canada? Perhaps the term "service point" is not appropriate.

    Insp Robert Boulet: The last time I checked, there were about 400 service points or detachments. As for service points, we also have several units within the detachments, depending on their size and the number of members who have been assigned there.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: Could there be 753?

    Insp Robert Boulet: Yes, that is possible. It's been a while since I read...

    Mr. Michel Guimond: How many detachments are obliged to provide bilingual services?

    Insp Robert Boulet: I can't answer that question.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: Could the answer be 204?

    Insp Robert Boulet: I do not know the exact figures.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: I should have testified myself. What percentage of the detachments in Quebec provide truly bilingual services?

    Insp Robert Boulet: I don't have these figures with me.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: I understand that, Mr. Boulet, and I'm not blaming you. You weren't expecting to be asked these questions. In baseball, sometimes we are thrown some curve balls over the home plate and we strike out after the third throw, but would you be so kind as to send this information to the clerk, who will ensure that it is forwarded to the committee members? That will provide some food for thought for all of the committee members and for Mr. Reid, as to the next steps.

    As for law enforcement in Gatineau Park—and I can tell you that I already know the answer because I have already been pulled over in one of these places— if I were pulled over on land belonging to Mirabel Airport and I am a Quebec resident and I am on Highway 640 which goes by Mirabel, or if I were on land belonging to Dorval Airport or yet again on a military base, in what language would the traffic ticket be written?

    Insp Robert Boulet: In Quebec, if it's a federal law that's being enforced and the RCMP is providing the service, the traffic ticket would be in French.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: So the traffic ticket case of interest to Mr. Reid is not specific to the National Capital Commission. The answer would have been exactly the same if this had occurred at Dorval Airport, at Mirabel Airport or on a military base. On a military base, the military police may issue the ticket, but in what language would it be given? Perhaps Mr. Tremblay could answer this question.

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: In order to answer your question, we would have to turn to the regulations of the Contraventions Act to verify which federal laws and regulations are listed in the schedule of this legislation. Before the Contraventions Act came into force, we used to have a system, a system whereby there were legal proceedings under the Criminal Code, which was cumbersome and entailed criminal sanctions, and which governed all prosecutions for federal violations. When the Contraventions Act came into force, a certain number of violations were decriminalized and dealt with out of the court system. Certain federal regulations were listed. I will give you an example of something that I'm bit more familiar with, namely the Contraventions Act as it is applied in Ontario. At the Ottawa Airport, the regulations pertaining to parking at the international airport have been included in the schedule of the Contraventions Act. Consequently, it is the Contraventions Act system and not the Criminal Code system that is enforced. Tickets are therefore issued under the provincial legislation. To go back to your question...

    Mr. Michel Guimond: Can I stop you there? Does that mean that it is the Ottawa-Carleton police force that issues tickets on the land belonging to the Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier Airport?

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: It is not the incorporated regulations that enable us to do that, but rather the agreement with the province. This is a two-step system. First of all, the provincial legislation has to be included in our legislative system so that it becomes a federal law. The Ontario Summary Convictions Act consequently becomes part of the federal convictions system by being listed in the Contraventions Act and a certain number of federal regulations that may be covered by this system are implemented.

    As for the second part of the system, once the ticket has been issued, it doesn't go anywhere. You have to process it. Therefore an agreement with the province is required and the province, through this agreement, agrees to begin proceedings for violations of these federal regulations.

»  (1710)  

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Chair, as I indicated at the beginning, part of my reason for coming--and it's interesting to hear that I'm the first solicitor general before this committee in a long time--was to get a feel for where the committee is at in terms of whether there is any way...first of all, whether the RCMP should be issuing bilingual tickets, and second, from the Department of Justice's point of view, whether in fact it can be done.

    But I certainly understand where Mr. Reid and Mr. Bellemare are coming from. They seem to be indicating that there should be bilingual tickets.

    I'm having some difficulty understanding where the member for the Bloc is coming from. Is he really in favour of bilingual tickets, or is he saying he stands by the legislation in Quebec, where they say the tickets should be in French only? I'm just wondering if the member could tell me where he really stands on the issue.

[Translation]

    Mr. Michel Guimond: I didn't know that it was up to me to answer the minister's questions, but I would like to say that tickets issued on Quebec territory comply with the provisions of the federal Contraventions Act, which stipulates that RCMP officers must obey provincial law, notably the Quebec Charter of the French Language. Whether you like or not, there is a Charter that protects the French majority in Quebec, which is a minority on the North American continent. That's why the way this was done is correct. Minister, I challenge you to tell us to do things differently in Quebec. You'd really have a great time with that.

    Let me close by asking Mr. Tremblay whether the approach for federal bridges located in Montreal, the Champlain Bridge and the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, would be the same as that used in airports.

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: I don't know the answer to that question because once again, this would be subject to verification. Let's draw a parallel with Gatineau Park. You've probably heard about the fact that there is an NCC regulation which has incorporated the provincial highway code and which applies on federal land. I suppose bridges are federal land. We would then have to check which legal system has been applied to them. I presume, but this is only an assumption, that the appropriate provincial legislation has been applied to each of these federal bridges.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Boulet.

[Translation]

    Insp Robert Boulet: I'm told that in the past, the RCMP looked after the bridges. But now under the new agreement, what Mr. Tremblay just indicated is in fact correct: the system that applies here, with the Contraventions Act, also applies to bridges.

    The Chair: Mr. Simard, please feel free to comment, and then it will be Mr. Godin's turn.

    Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

    I guess I'll just make a comment here. Being from Manitoba, I just assumed every ticket issued by the RCMP across Canada was bilingual, so this is kind of a surprise to me.

    I'm assuming--I'm not sure, of course, as I can't speak for them--that you would probably get the same kind of resistance in Alberta that you would get in Quebec. Our neighbour is Saskatchewan, and Alberta would probably have the same kind of resistance.

    It's not an easy issue. You could probably try to impose bilingual tickets. Having bilingual tickets across Canada would be ideal, but I'm not sure it's that simple, from what I've heard today. I guess our committee should actually look at this and come back with a recommendation.

    The Chair: Do you wish to respond, Mr. Minister?

»  (1715)  

    Mr. Wayne Easter: No. I think the information that the member has indicated is accurate.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Godin, you have seven minutes.

[Translation]

    Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I feel that this committee has a responsibility to ensure that the Official Languages Act applies throughout Canada, especially when it comes to the services of the RCMP, which is a national police force, and especially when this takes place in the National Capital Region. You can't argue one thing on the one hand and say something else on the other.

    This really surprises me, because when you file a complaint with the RCMP, it's federal, although its services are leased by a province. So minister, do you see anything in the upcoming agreements that could be part of a negotiation that might lead to a friendly agreement? I don't think French will be lost in Quebec because an anglophone receives a ticket in his or her own language. I don't think it's the responsibility of Quebec to teach French to anglophones because on the other side of the bridge, in the capital... I can't see how that could happen.

    We're talking about minorities. If francophones outside Quebec had that attitude, like the anglophones who are the majority, we wouldn't get very far. This is an issue that should be examined I think, and we should also see what recommendations can be made to the department regarding the negotiations that take place with all the provinces. It doesn't bother me if it's written in both languages as long as I as a citizen can get it in my own language, because it is after all a ticket.

    You also said that you had to be there to enforce the law. We're not talking about the law. We're not talking about somebody who is driving 75 kilometres an hour in a 50 kilometre an hour zone. We're talking about the language used with a person who is being provided with a service. There is a difference between the law, the Highway Code and the service that may be provided.

    Insp Robert Boulet: Is there any particular question here?

    Mr. Yvon Godin: My question is this: can you tell us what the RCMP intends to do in its negotiations with any of the provinces and could it report this to the committee?

    Insp Robert Boulet: Any steps taken by the RCMP, especially here in the National Capital Region, will be taken jointly with the Department of Justice with regard to the Contraventions Act and the agreements. When there are discussions on the agreements, we will attend and put forth our ideas. It is not up to the RCMP to initiate discussions on new agreements in the National Capital Region, but we are prepared to participate.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Therefore, it's up to the Department of Justice to sign these agreements and you will then follow the orders that you receive.

    Insp Robert Boulet: Yes.

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: We can tell you that in June 2002, departmental representatives contacted their colleagues in the Quebec Justice Ministry to indicate that there had been complaints of this nature and to begin preliminary talks. Therefore, the work has already begun.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Is that all, Mr. Godin?

[English]

    Mr. Easter, we're running short of time.

    Mr. Wayne Easter: We're running very short of time, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: There are three members who have asked for a quick second round.

    Mr. Wayne Easter: Can we do it in five minutes?

    The Chair: We'll try.

    Mr. Reid, Mr. Bellemare, and Mr. Guimond, you have a couple of minutes each.

    Mr. Scott Reid: Yes. I'll try to be quick, Mr. Chair.

    The tickets that are currently issued by the RCMP in the national capital region, and I guess throughout Quebec, are the result, I believe, of an agreement that was signed under provisions of the Contraventions Act in 1996, section 65. Were the tickets that were issued prior to that date bilingual or unilingual? That is to say, were unilingual tickets introduced under the watch of this government or were they issued by the RCMP prior to that time?

    Mr. Marc Tremblay: Prior to the Contraventions Act regime applying by way of regulation and agreement, all prosecutions for federal offences would have taken place. Actually, I should say any prosecution, because as a matter of fact there were very few, if any, given the dire consequences attached to such prosecutions. But if there had been any, they would have been governed by the Criminal Code provisions. And as the Criminal Code provided then, and do today, a bilingual ticket is required by law.

    Mr. Scott Reid: That's the question. Thank you.

    The Chair: Mr. Bellemare.

[Translation]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: My question could be summed up as follows. The RCMP has a duty to communicate with all Canadian citizens in both official languages. When you issue a ticket, that is a communication that you have with a Canadian citizen, and that communication should be made available in both languages. The issue of the ticket itself, from a legal standpoint, concerns the province involved, but I'm interested in the communication itself.

»  (1720)  

    Insp Robert Boulet: I can answer, Marc.

    As we mentioned earlier, the RCMP offers bilingual service. All members of the RCMP who take part in activities related to traffic in this region and in most of Canada can offer bilingual service. In the National Capital Region, our members may address a driver in one language and depending on the initial contact, switch to the driver's language. Communication takes place in the language chosen by the driver.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: But the communication on the ticket itself... The ticket is a written communication that you're issuing and you're issuing it in a single language.

    Insp Robert Boulet: The ticket is in the language mentioned in the regulations that must be followed in that region, but the verbal communication is always bilingual.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you.

    The Chair: Mr. Guimond.

    Mr. Michel Guimond: I have two short questions for the Solicitor General. Apart from the RCMP and Correctional Services, are there any other administrative entities that report to you, Minister?

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: Certainly there are. There's the RCMP, Corrections, CSIS, and the Parole Board, as well as the review agency.

[Translation]

    Mr. Michel Guimond: When you were briefed at the time you took up your position, were you made aware of the official languages situation in each of these organizations or have you not yet had time to do that?

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: I haven't had time to consider a number of things, but I think in this particular area that we're talking about today, the issue of tickets, as you can see, given what Mr. Tremblay has said and what some of the questioners have said, with the split jurisdictions, with the Contraventions Act, and so on, it is a complicated issue. That's in fact one of the reasons I came.

    My first impression was that the tickets were bilingual, or that's what I was of the opinion of at one point in time. Obviously they're not, and there's a reason for it, as I think Mr. Tremblay laid out. As I indicated at the start, there are a couple of reviews taking place that we can't get into comments on, but certainly my purpose in being here is that I want to know what the committee's view is, to see if there is a way around this particular issue that meets the needs of the majority and to see if it can be done within the confines of provincial and federal law.

    So that's why I'm here, to seek your advice.

[Translation]

    Mr. Michel Guimond: You say "To seek your advice". You are the minister; you're no longer in one of those chairs. You're the minister and we expect you to provide us with answers. There is one person here that thinks differently from the rest when it comes to the situation of the Quebec Charter of the French Language.

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: That wouldn't be the first time around a committee table that one member thinks differently from the rest. That's the nature of this place. But as I indicated, I've tried to lay out the facts as they exist in the current situation, and we'll certainly be looking forward to feedback from the committee. We would welcome that input.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Easter.

[Translation]

    We will now adjourn this meeting.

    Minister, thank you once again for having juggled your schedule in order to be with us here today. Some members of the committee may wish to examine this issue in greater depth, given that it is quite technical and complex, but this will not be done before the House resumes in January or February.

    Mr. Boulet, please don't forget to send the clerk the information that Mr. Guimond and I have asked for.

    I thank you again and look forward to seeing you soon.

    Mr. Easter, I can assure you that we will not wait 14 more years before we have the Solicitor General appear before the Official Languages Committee.

    Thank you.

»  (1725)  

[English]

    Mr. Wayne Easter: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[Translation]

    The Chair: The meeting is adjourned.