HAFF Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, May 23, 2002

Á

1115

The Chair (Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.))

Á

1125

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Á

1130

Mr. Jacques Saada

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

Mr. Saada

The Chair

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jacques Saada)

The Chair

Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Á

1135

Mr. Bryden

The Chair

Mr. John Bryden

The Chair

Á

1140

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

The Chair

Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.)

Á

1145

Ms. Marlene Catterall

Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.)

Mr. Saada

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

The Chair

Mr. Illias Ali (Member of Parliament and Member of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party)

Mr. Al-haj Abdul Alim (Member of Parliament and Member of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party)

Mr. Al-Hajj Md. Jahed Ali Chowdhury (Whip, Member of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party)

Hon. Muhammad Jamiruddin Sircar (Speaker of the Parliament of Bangladesh)

The Chair

Hon. Sam Mpasu (Speaker of the National Assembly, Republic of Malawi)

The Chair

Mr. G.M. Lowe (Malawi Congress Party, National Assembly of the Republic of Malawi)

Hon. E.M.K. Mtafu (United Democratic Front, National Assembly of the Republic of Malawi)

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. Yvon Godin

Á

1150

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Dale Johnston

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

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NUMBER 065

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Thursday, May 23, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Á  (1120)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.)): I know we're a little late because of what's been going on in the House of Commons. Before I proceed to the agenda, I'll explain to you how I see this meeting going.

    As you know, we have these distinguished guests from Bangladesh and Malawi. Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. We'll introduce ourselves in a moment.

    Colleagues, I've invited our guests to sit with us at the table, and I thought we would proceed for 30 or 40 minutes with a regular meeting.

    As you know, we've had the steering committee meeting. There are routine things we need to do. In the steering committee, at least, it was agreed that if we came to something that looked as though it would be controversial and go on a long time, we would simply postpone it to a later meeting so we could eventually get to a discussion with our guests.

    So the idea is we'll have a short, almost demonstration meeting for the benefit of our guests. Then we'll close that meeting down and continue with an exchange with the two delegations, and with lunch, which will have arrived by that time. Then the meeting will conclude.

    But before we do all of that, I thought there would be an opportunity for us to have some photographs taken. My suggestion is--again I apologize that we've not been properly introduced yet--that members of the committee could stand behind the delegations and we'll have three photographs taken.

    One will be of our committee standing behind our guests, the two delegations together. The second will be of our committee standing behind the Malawi delegation. And the third will be our committee standing behind the Bangladesh delegation, if that's okay. The photographer is going to come into the middle of the table here. Do you understand that, colleagues?

    We'll proceed now, and I'll suspend the meeting for five minutes.

Á  (1118)  

---

Á  (1123)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Just a moment, Mr. Chairman.

    Perhaps you should consider splitting up your report and deferring until next Tuesday the item respecting private members' business, because I do intend to raise this matter.

    Mr. Chairman, I'm here this morning although I'm not a member of the committee. As a government member, I was asked to attend. I want to point out that I may be in a conflict of interest situation because I disagree entirely with one of the items in your report and I would like to discuss it as this time.

    If you defer consideration of this item until Tuesday, I could understand your doing as a matter of basic courtesy toward our guests. If you don't wish to defer the matter until Tuesday, I would like us to broach the matter now, before the vote.

Á  (1125)  

[English]

    The Chair: Mauril, might I suggest that the report is not your problem; it's the item under D, the letter to John Bryden and Mauril Bélanger? Could you raise the same point then?

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: No, Mr. Chairman, because the report notes the following:

That the Chair write to Mr. Mauril Bélanger and Mr. John Bryden to inform them that the Committee has declined their requests to appear before the Committee and that the Committee will be considering amendments to Private Members' Business.

    Mr. Chairman, I'd like to state my opposition to this decision.

[English]

    The Chair: Mauril, if I could again suggest respectfully, the draft letters will be considered under item D. Might it not be more appropriate for you to consider that?

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: These letters will be considered under item D. In other words, by accepting the report, we are go along with the concept and you are merely taking these letters into consideration.

    I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, but quite frankly, I can't let this go.

[English]

    The Chair: Okay.

    Michel Guimond, and then Jacques Saada.

[Translation]

    Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Chairman, I don't want to get bogged down in procedure, but I don't think my colleague Mr. Bélanger understands the gist of the report tabled by the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure.

    I did not attend the meeting in question as my party's representative, but I believe the chair is merely reporting on the items discussed at this meeting. If it will reassure Mr. Bélanger, I can tell him that as far as item D, “Committee Business” , is concerned, the whole committee could decide to tell the chair that the letter to be sent to Mr. Bryden and to yourself is unsatisfactory and we could vote on that. I think we have no other choice but to accept the report...

[English]

    The Chair: Colleagues, we have John Bryden here, as I mentioned, under the same item.

    In order to proceed with some of the business we want to do, I suggest someone amend the report by deleting the paragraph referring to Mauril Bélanger and John Bryden.

    Jacques Saada.

[Translation]

    Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to propose an amendment that would read as follows:

[English]

That the Chair write to Mr. Mauril Bélanger and Mr. John Bryden concerning their request to appear before the committee.

[Translation]

    This paragraph would remain in the report and the matter could then be debated fully.

[English]

    The Chair: Mauril Bélanger, do you want to comment on that suggestion?

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chairman, I could agree to your initial suggestion, which was to delete this item completely, but I can't speak for Mr. Bryden. It would be a matter of tabling the report, not of voting to accept it.

[English]

    The Chair: Would someone move my amendment that we delete that paragraph. I can't move it. You don't want to? Okay.

    Yes, Jacques Saada.

Á  (1130)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Jacques Saada: Mr. Chairman, the committee received the report for discussion purposes. If this item is deleted, there will be no possibility of our having a discussion. Something is wrong here. That's why I would prefer to mention it, without assuming that we will come to any sort of conclusion.

[English]

    The Chair: I tried.

    The amendment is Jacques Saada's amendment, that it be changed, simply referring to the letters without the decision.

    (Amendment agreed to)

    The Chair: Will someone move the report as amended?

    Marlene Catterall so moves.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Bélanger has a point of order.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Could you read the motion as amended for our benefit?

    Mr. Jacques Saada: Could I do the honours, Mr. Chairman?

[English]

    The Chair: Yes, Jacques Saada.

[Translation]

That the Chair write to Mr. Mauril Bélanger and Mr. John Bryden concerning their request to appear before the Committee.

[English]

    The Chair: Ms. Catterall.

    Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): In paragraph 3, the recommendation of the steering committee to this committee is

That the committee meet in camera on Tuesday, May 28, to consider results of the roundtable on Private Members' Business.

    First, I presume that what we will be receiving is a report from our researcher on the issues that were raised at that round table discussion, and I just wonder why we would be doing that in camera.

    The Chair: By the way, again, the steering committee's thought was that the report, Marlene, include a very wide range of suggestions. The idea was that there would be some negotiation about what is possible, rather than simply trying, as we've done in the past, to go through all those items and spend hours and hours on things when in fact there's no agreement. The thought was that it would be the whole committee in camera and that we would be able to negotiate and hopefully move forward on private members' business, rather than simply starting again with a very long list.

    Mauril Bélanger.

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chairman, I move to delete the words “in camera” from item 3 of the report.

    The Chair: Members, I have no objection. I have given the explanation.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Could we please have a recorded vote?

[English]

    The Chair: By all means.

    (Amendment agreed to: yeas 8; nays 3)

    (Motion agreed to)

[Translation]

    Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair:Go ahead, Yvon.

    Mr. Yvon Godin:Perhaps I should have spoken up earlier. My only problem is that Mr. Bélanger commented that perhaps he shouldn't be at the table because of a potential conflict of interest. That's his problem, and all of these motions also concern a problem of his.

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chairman, since I'm being quoted, I'd also like to point out that four other committee members are also in a conflict-of-interest position because they also sit on the sub-committee.

[English]

    The Chair: I understand the technical point, Yvon, but I am not sure it's significant.

[Translation]

    Mr. Yvon Godin: The only reason I pointed it out was because Mr. Bélanger himself mentioned it at the beginning of the meeting. Had he not done so, there would not have been a problem. He was the one who mentioned a conflict of interest.

[English]

    The Chair: I am sure the committee will see to it that Mr. Bélanger and Mr. Bryden, in various ways, can appear before our committee. You'll see when we get to the draft letter.

    On item B, which has to do with the televising of committee meetings in the House of Commons, and the report, you have the draft report. This is the 58th report of our committee.

    Essentially it recommends that the experiment we have been conducting in encouraging the televising of committees be extended--do you want to run your eyes over that report--until December 31, 2002. We will then re-evaluate the guidelines.

    It was discussed by the steering committee. There has been some activity in the televising of committees but not much. We think if we were then to say the experiment has failed and report back to the House to that effect, we would have to start all over again. If we were to report back to the House and say the arrangements we have for this experiment should become permanent, it would then be difficult to change them.

    So the idea is, we extend again, and committees can still be televised under these rules, until the end of the year.

    That's moved by Jacques Saada.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: If I can move to item C, again in the draft report, this has to do with associate membership in the liaison committee. The liaison committee is the committee of chairs of standing committees. It approached us; it wanted to have the vice-chairs of committees as associate members in order that it could more easily get a quorum. That's what this does.

    It is moved by Rick Borotsik.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: That brings us to item D. What I will do for this, the first run, is something that in fact the steering committee did not consider because we did not have it before us. This has to do with the new legislative committee.

    On Thursday, May 9, 2002, the House agreed to amend the motion for second reading of Bill C-55 by replacing the words “The Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations”, with the words “a legislative Committee”. Pursuant to Standing Order 113, this committee--that's our committee--has to meet within five sitting days that debate commences on a motion to refer Bill C-55 to a legislative committee and must then report a list of members to the House no later than the following Thursday. Consequently, we have until next Thursday, May 30, to report to the House on this matter, and I would ask the whips--all whips here--to bring their list to Tuesday's meeting.

    Do the whips understand that? We're going to deal with it Tuesday.

    That means, by the way, colleagues, that we have formally dealt with that matter within the time concerned.

    John Bryden.

Á  (1135)  

    Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, pertaining to this list of members for the legislative committee, can individual members suggest names to this legislative committee? In other words, do we have to go through the whip? Is that absolutely required? I don't mind, but--

    The Chair: The normal practice is to go through the whips--

    Mr. Michel Guimond: This is the reason you have a whip.

     The Chair: --and this committee receives lists from whips for all committees.

    Mr. John Bryden: Actually, I trust my whip, certainly, but I can't help but ask, Mr. Chairman, is that indeed in the standing orders? Are you saying, then, that an individual member of Parliament cannot make application to this committee to appear on a special committee being struck by this committee?

    The Chair: I'm advised that we are not bound by the whips. But the normal practice, John, as I have said, is we receive these from the whips and approve them. No doubt such lists can be amended. I'm sure you will study this matter.

    Mr. John Bryden: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: The next item before you is a draft letter from myself to the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada. By the way, this was at the suggestion of Yvon Godin.

    Yvon, would you like to speak to it briefly?

Á  (1140)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I'd like to thank you for the draft letter that is scheduled to be sent to Canada's Chief Electoral Officer.

    I'm extremely disappointed to see a preliminary report drafted in New Brunswick made public in this manner. The implication are already being felt in New Brunswick where all of the newspapers are talking about it. It has become fodder for public discussion. Not that I'm upset that people worked on this, but the report was made public before we had a chance to review and comment on it. As such, we were unable to do our work as MPs in our ridings and regions.

[English]

    For example, I have an editorial from a newspaper here that the name of the federal riding of Acadie--Bathurst is fine just the way it is.

    Now you can see what it has created. That's why I believe if people were hired to do a professional job, it's totally unacceptable that this was leaked. That's why I believe and hope Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley will do what needs to be done. I appreciate the letter that will be sent out.

    The Chair: You're comfortable with the wording of the letter.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes.

    The Chair: Our guests are likely confused about some of this, but this committee is responsible for the Canada Elections Act. This is an apparent leak of information, in connection with the reorganization of ridings--constituency boundaries--at the present time.

    It is moved by Yvon Godin that the committee send this letter to Mr. Kingsley.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: You have the letter to Paul Szabo. This concerns the late show. It says the committee has decided to take no action at this time, that present procedures and practices are appropriate, and that the problem has to do with good faith and cooperation rather than with procedures.

    It is moved by Rick Borotsik that we send this letter to Paul Szabo.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: I suggest we defer discussion on the letters to John Bryden and Mauril Bélanger until Tuesday's public meeting on private members' business.

    The next item is a motion from Dale Johnston, who will speak to it.

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I suggest you defer Dale's motion to the same meeting as well.

    The Chair: Let's see what Dale says. By the way, I think that is the plan, Mauril. You're ahead of us, as usual. Actually, we were ahead of you in this case.

    Dale, go ahead.

    Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance): I believe this motion can be dealt with when we deal with the whole matter of private members' business. So I have no problem deferring this to Tuesday's meeting.

    The Chair: Colleagues, it's agreed and will be so done.

    I'd like us to introduce ourselves, on the record. Then I will adjourn the normal meeting, but we will continue--the translation will continue and so on--in what will essentially be a private meeting.

    We will begin with very simple introductions, rather than remarks. I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, you will have some remarks.

    I'm Peter Adams, the Liberal member of Parliament for Peterborough, Ontario. I'm chair of this Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

    Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): My name is John Richardson. I'm the member of Parliament for the large counties of Perth--Middlesex, the centre of southern Ontario.

    Thank you.

Á  (1145)  

    Ms. Marlene Catterall: I'm Marlene Catterall, member of Parliament for Ottawa West--Nepean and chief government whip. I understand there are a couple of whips on the delegation, so I'm delighted to welcome you.

    Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.): I'm Tony Tirabassi. I'm the member of Parliament for Niagara Centre in the Niagara region in Ontario.

    Mr. Jacques Saada: I'm Jacques Saada, deputy whip of the government, and I'm a member of Parliament for Brossard--La Prairie in the province de Québec.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Good morning everyone. My name is Mauril Bélanger and I'm the member for Ottawa-Vanier, a riding located here in the Nation's Capital. I'm not a regular member of this committee. I don't think my colleagues would put up with my serving on this committee on a regular basis.

    I'm here because I'm very concerned about the way in which private members' business is managed. I'm sure most of our colleagues would agree that the system does have a number of shortcomings. A sincere effort is currently being made to rectify these problems.

[English]

    The Chair: We will now hear from members of the delegation from Bangladesh.

    Mr. Illias Ali (Member of Parliament and Member of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable members. I am Illias Ali, member of Parliament.

    I am very glad to be here. We are very appreciative of this, each of us, to know about your committee. Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Mr. Ali, welcome.

    Mr. Al-haj Abdul Alim (Member of Parliament and Member of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party): I am Abdul Alim, member of Parliament from Joypurhat District. I am also a former minister of communications.

    The Chair: Welcome.

    Mr. Al-Hajj Md. Jahed Ali Chowdhury (Whip, Member of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party): Thank you, gentlemen.

    I am Jahed Ali Chowdhury, whip, Bangladesh Parliament, government party.

    The Chair: Mr. Chowdhury, welcome.

    Hon. Muhammad Jamiruddin Sircar (Speaker of the Parliament of Bangladesh): Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members. I am Muhammad Jamiruddin Sircar. I am the Speaker of the Bangladesh Parliament, which consists of 300 members. Our population is 130 million. I was elected to the Parliament for four terms. I was minister of six ministries, and now I have been elevated to the office of Speaker.

    Thank you, Mr. President, and I thank all the honourable members. I am very happy to see your proceedings, and we have profited from this.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

    Hon. Sam Mpasu (Speaker of the National Assembly, Republic of Malawi): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    My name is Sam Mpasu. I'm a member of Parliament from Ntcheu Central, Speaker of the National Assembly of Malawi, but I'm here primarily because I'm chairman of the Parliamentary Service Commission. I'm glad to be here.

    The Chair: Welcome, Mr. Speaker.

    Mr. G.M. Lowe (Malawi Congress Party, National Assembly of the Republic of Malawi): My name is George Msuwa Lowe. I am a member of Parliament for Karonga Southwest in Malawi. I have come here as a member of the Parliamentary Service Commission.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: Thank you. Welcome.

    Hon. E.M.K. Mtafu (United Democratic Front, National Assembly of the Republic of Malawi): I am Elvey Mtafu, member of Parliament for Mulanje Bale in the south of Malawi.

    The Chair: Colleagues, you should know, Mulanje is a mountain. They get snow on the top sometimes, and I have been on top of it.

    It's a great pleasure to see you.

    Rick.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): My name is Rick Borotsik. I'm the member of Parliament from Brandon, Manitoba. We have no mountains. It's flat, flat, flat.

    The Chair: Plenty of snow.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: We have snow, however, but not on mountains.

    I'm the whip for the Progressive Conservative Party, and I would like to take this opportunity, on behalf of my party, to welcome you to Canada and particularly to Ottawa. We hope at some point in time to be able to reciprocate and see the lovely mountains.

    Thank you.

[Translation]

    Mr. Yvon Godin: My name is Yvon Godin and I represent the riding of Acadie-Bathurst which is located in northeastern New Brunswick along the Baie des Chaleurs and the Atlantic coast. I'm the federal New Democratic Party Whip.

    I'm delighted you could be here in Canada and I hope you have a pleasant stay. You'll have an opportunity to see this House at work and to see democracy in action in Canada. You got a glimpse of how things work this morning. Ultimately we always come to some kind of resolution and that's what makes things interesting. I hope you visit continues to be an enjoyable one.

    Thank you very much.

Á  (1150)  

    Mr. Michel Guimond: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the House of Commons and to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

    My name is Michel Guimond and I'm the Member for Beauport--Montmorency--Côte-de-Beaupré--Île-d'Orléans, a riding east of Quebec City. I'm also the Deputy Whip for my party, the Bloc Québécois.

[English]

    Mr. Dale Johnston: Good morning delegates. I'm Dale Johnston, the member of Parliament for Wetaskiwin, Alberta. That's the first riding south of the capital of Alberta, which is Edmonton. I am also the chief opposition whip.

    I and the Speaker had the honour of having lunch with the Bangladeshi delegates on Tuesday, and it's good to see you here again. Welcome.

    The Chair: Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know how you'd like to proceed now. You and the Speakers have some sense of what our committee does. You've heard that all five whips are on this committee, as well as a number of other party officers--the Prime MInister's parliamentary secretary, for example, and the government House leader's parliamentary secretary.

    Our committee is very central to the operation of the House of Commons itself....

    I've just been advised that I should technically adjourn the meeting. We're going to adjourn the meeting but continue with the translation.