HAFF Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA PROCÉDURE ET DES AFFAIRES DE LA CHAMBRE

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, May 18, 2000

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order.

Colleagues, today we are doing the estimates for the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, referred to us from the House. We're delighted to have with us again Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the Chief Electoral Officer; Janice Vézina, the director of election financing; and Patricia Hassard, the assistant chief electoral officer.

Welcome, Mr. Kingsley and company. I assume you will have a statement to get us started on the agenda. If you're ready, let's begin.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley (Chief Electoral Officer): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning to all the members of the committee. I wish to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having introduced my two colleagues.

My last appearance before this committee on main estimates was on April 20 of last year. We have replied to all the questions asked at that meeting that required follow-up. This is, by the way, a little habit we've developed whenever we appear before a committee. If something is incomplete in my answers or in our answers, we follow up with written replies. This we have done for last year.

Members of the committee are aware that the agency has historically operated under two separate budgetary authorities, the administrative vote and the statutory authority. The administrative vote, or vote 20, which is $3.1 million this year, and a related amount of $592,000 for the employee benefits plan are the portions of our funding that you are considering now in committee, prior to reporting to the House. Essentially this provides for the salaries of a core group of our permanent employees. The budget related to the statutory authority of the chief electoral officer totals $29.9 million this year.

This presentation, however, deals with both the statutory authority and the administrative vote in an attempt to give you a clear understanding of what the office is all about and not just the small portion that I've reported under the administrative vote.

As part of my accountability to Parliament, I will highlight some of our recent achievements. Then I will say a few words about our plans and priorities for the coming year. This should take me about ten minutes.

We conducted five by-elections in fiscal year 1999-2000. One was held in Windsor—St. Clair on April 12, 1999, at a cost of $412,000. The others were held on November 15, 1999, in Hull—Aylmer, Mount Royal, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, and York West, at an estimated cost of $1.5 million for all of them.

In the autumn of 1999, Elections Canada, in cooperation with UNICEF Canada, offered the first national election for the rights of youth. This was done under the authority provided by subsection 8(2) of the act. Elections Canada's contribution to this election was $230,000. 1,918 schools registered for this vote across Canada and 187,757 students actually voted. Family was the right that was the most popular among Canada's youth.

With respect to electoral geography, after signing a memorandum of understanding with the chief statistician in 1999 to merge our geographic databases, we now possess the most detailed and current digital national road network in the land, as we reported to you previously. Both StatsCan and Elections Canada use the national geographic database for operational purposes, with considerable cost savings to the Canadian public.

Links between addresses and the national register of electors will greatly facilitate incorporating changes in polling division and electoral district boundaries into the national register of electors. This will be especially important for the next electoral boundary redistribution that will occur after the 2001 decennial census. So it's coming up very soon.

Geo-referencing will also enable us to produce lists of electors from the register for other jurisdictions with dissimilar electoral boundaries, further enhancing our ability to share the data on the register.

Elections Canada hosted the first worldwide meeting of election organizations, the global electoral organization network or GEO network conference, in Ottawa in April of 1999, at very little cost to Elections Canada, by the way.

Continuing our efforts to support demographic development around the world, Elections Canada also hosted a number of foreign delegations during the fiscal year. For example, we recently held a conference in Ottawa with the president/councillor of the Instituto Federal Electoral of Mexico as guest speaker.

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The national register of electors program is now in place and functioning and continues to progress as planned. The register is updated regularly with data from federal and provincial sources as reported here.

As you may know, data from the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency is a key source for updating the register. Data is provided only if tax filers consent by ticking a box on the front page of their tax return. I'm pleased to report that for the taxation year 1998, the consent rate improved from 80% to almost 83%, and for the taxation year 1999 we have received statistics for some 10 million tax filers so far, which indicates that the consent rate will increase again to over 84%. Canadians clearly support the National Register of Electors program. Just as a reminder, for the business case, we had predicated a 70% take-up rate. So beyond 84% is quite gratifying news.

A new national register of electors advisory committee was established in 1999, providing a forum to discuss with other jurisdictions, or stakeholders, our projects for sharing and using register data and for plotting the future of the register.

In terms of the business case for the national register of electors, the annual cost of maintaining the register was at least $700,000 lower than the projected $5.2 million. We continue to project that we will cut voter registration costs by some $30 million net for the next and subsequent elections.

During the last fiscal year, national register of electors data was used to establish a permanent register of electors for Newfoundland and Labrador. Elections Ontario also used national register of electors data to establish a provincial register. Data sharing began with the Ontario Property Assessment Corporation in early 2000 for the forthcoming municipal elections in Ontario. OPAC, as it is commonly known, was provided with a register extract to allow them to reduce the number of mail-out enumerations. I should say it allowed them to significantly reduce that number.

The national register of electors was used in the 1999 Ontario provincial election. The names of 7 million electors were provided to Ontario and data received from Ontario after their election have been used to update the national register.

We held regular meetings of the advisory committee of registered political parties. This has proved to be a most useful forum for continuous improvement and development of the electoral process within the law as it is written and in certain instances in helping shape what recommendations there should be to amend the law.

[Translation]

Now allow me to tell you about our priorities for the next 12 months. I'll be brief so we can soon go to your questions.

According to the Canada Elections Act, the amendments to the Act come into effect six months after Royal Assent, unless I publish a notice in the Canada Gazette at an earlier date.

Therefore, after Bill C-2 is adopted, providing it is adopted, we will have up to six months after Royal Assent to implement the change.

This will be a period of intense activity, since we have to update many manuals, forms, systems and instructional material for candidates, political parties and election officers, review all our communications and outreach material, and train returning officers and some of their key staff, such as assistant returning officers and automation coordinators. There is at least one returning officer in each office.

As I mentioned last October, I also intend to undertake awareness programs in a timely manner so that all interested parties know about the provisions of the new Act.

Please note that these activities are currently not funded for 2000-2001. The preliminary estimate is approximately $6 million, but this is not included in the estimates that we have tabled here today.

Elections Canada must maintain a constant state of readiness to deliver general elections, by-elections and referendums. This is a complex task, given that elections are not held at predetermined dates and, except for the act of voting, all of our systems are computerized, require updates for improvements in quality, and advancement in applications as well as in technology. I have declared September 1 of this year a convergence point for our plans in preparation for the next general election.

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We continue to automate the offices of our returning officers, in areas such as payment systems, event management, event results information and e-mail technology.

The first release of our new software, called “REVISE”, a system for the revision of the electoral lists, is now operational, with improvements to follow in the 2000-2001 fiscal year. The system was used successfully for the first time at this week's by-election in St. John's West.

Planning and pre-event preparation are not only critical for head office operations, but are key activities at the electoral district level as well.

In February, we asked returning officers to conduct a number of assignments, including the identification and tentative recruitment of key personnel, the targeting of geographic areas where increased elector registration initiatives will be required, and the review and adjustment of polling division boundaries and polling sites. These activities will be completed in August 2000 at a cost of $.5 million in 1999-2000 and $1.6 million this year.

As well, we attach a great deal of importance to training returning officers and key members of their staff. Training sessions are planned for August 2000 for returning officers, assistant returning officers and automation coordinators; this represents 903 people. The training will cover all new computer applications and a refresher course on the major activities in the electoral process, as well as the impact of the new legislation, if passed, on the activities performed by returning officers. The projected cost is $2.3 million.

In 2000-2001, we will continue to assess new sources of data to improve the quality, coverage and currency of the register. Based on a data assessment conducted in 1999-2000, we have recently signed an agreement with Canada Post to use data from their National Change of Address Program to update the register.

The voter turnout rate in the 1997 federal general election, at 67%, was the lowest since 1925.

Elections Canada's analysis of survey data compiled in the 1997 Canadian Election Study suggests that lack of awareness of the available voting opportunities was one of the many factors contributing to this decline. Other research points to a decline of interest in politics in many democracies, including our own, that is diminishing participation in all forms of political activity.

While Elections Canada cannot assume the role of “change agent” with respect to citizen attitudes towards politics, we are committed to providing all electors with the information necessary to appreciate and to participate in the electoral process. To this end, we continue to develop an outreach program aimed at those segments of the electorate where voter turnout has been the lowest: namely, youth aged 18 to 24, new Canadians, Aboriginal Canadians, persons with disabilities, people with limited mobility or literacy.

We are also exploring ways to reach out to the homeless to inform them about the voting process and to make it easier for them to have access to polling stations.

During the next fiscal year, we will continue to reflect changing realities and the evolving needs of the electorate in our planning. Among points of particular relevance is the impact of new technologies, such as the Internet, on governance, on electoral campaigns and on the way Canadians may be able to vote in the future.

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Last year, I invited you to visit Elections Canada's Electoral Geography Division to view the beginnings of the exciting geo-referencing project. I made a presentation to this committee on March 21, to explain what we have done to address concerns about the quality of electoral maps. We also presented prototypes of the maps we will producing for the next general election and obtained your valuable input.

Thanks to our mutual efforts, I now have the pleasure of informing you that I will be providing an overview map to each MP of their riding by the end of the summer.

These innovations and improvements are but a few examples of how Elections Canada strives to continuously improve services. Our objective is to enhance the level of confidence of Canadians in our ability to hold free and fair elections, thus strengthening Canada's democracy. As for the cards, this morning I saw the first prototype card to be printed using the new software which I described to you and which is now functional.

We at Elections Canada would appreciate hearing the Standing Committee's observations and questions about the information presented in our Main Estimates document.

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to make my presentation and I would invite you to ask the questions that you feel are relevant.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Kingsley. Your opening statement has covered a wealth of subject areas.

I want to congratulate you and your team for—I guess it's one of the simpler things—the map-making project that you... Some members were of the view that the maps prepared for the last election were a little on the weaker side as opposed to the stronger side, and now it appears as though we have a product that could actually be the leading edge of the best in the world.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: It is.

The Chairman: So you've moved that envelope along significantly, and I congratulate you for that.

I will go to colleagues now for questions. Mr. White.

Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance): Good morning, Mr. Lee.

The Chairman: Good morning, Mr. White.

Mr. Ted White: Mr. Kingsley, thank you for the presentation.

I have three short questions. The first one is to do with the returning officers and assistant returning officers. Can you tell me, are these people paid all year round, and if so, how much are they paid? Can you tell me whether or not their salary goes up at the time of an election or by-election? Can you also tell me whether you've ever done a cost estimate of changing the system from the present patronage appointment system to one where you would employ your own returning officers and deputy returning officers and also whether that would require an increase in staff?

My second question has to do with the voter education and awareness program. You mentioned the number of schools that took part in the vote. Can you also tell me how many schools did not take part in the vote? I don't know if you have that figure available. Can you tell me how many actually laid complaints? And can you tell me what you've actually done with the results of the vote?

My final question is related to the Internet. I notice that the parliamentary site here on the Hill now allows web surfers to put in a postal code and obtain the name of their member of Parliament. The question was asked when we were dealing with Bill C-2 at one time as to whether or not the Elections Canada site had that ability. I know you indicated that someone was working on that. Can you explain how it can be done on the parliamentary site but not on your own site—if it's not yet being done—and if it isn't being done, when will that be available?

Thank you.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

With respect to the pay for returning officers, returning officers are not paid on a regular basis unless they're performing tasks for Elections Canada. Those tasks include training, for example, for which we pay them the rate that is stipulated in the tariff of fees.

The tariff of fees is an instrument that details how everyone is paid who works during an election, including returning officers and assistant returning officers. The Chief Electoral Officer makes a recommendation to the Governor in Council, which recommendation is either accepted or refused outright, but the tariff of fees that exists is one that was recommended by the Chief Electoral Officer and accepted as is. It dates back mainly to 1992.

Returning officers, as I was saying, are not paid during events unless they're performing tasks. The tasks they're performing now—for example, in relating to parties and candidates about the location of mobile polls, the location of other polls, and all the work they're doing now—of course they will be paid for.

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If we want to revise something with them, if there is need for an additional training program during the time they're there, that we will pay for, but there is no standing fee for them.

With respect to the costing, if I, as the Chief Electoral Officer, were to be responsible for their recruitment and their selection, the only difference in cost would be the two or three people that I would have to hire at head office to run this. It has always been foreseen that the returning officers who are there now would not be replaced. We would replace them only as they left their jobs. We would live with the present appointments. That's not a problem. I've always said that, no matter who had appointed them in the past.

In terms of the schedule of fees, I have envisaged—and will be making a recommendation in the near future to the Governor in Council—an increase in the tariff, because none has really been forthcoming since the 1993 general election. That should be occurring right now.

With respect to the voter education program and the number of schools that did not participate, I cannot give you an accurate number. My recollection is that there were tens of thousands of schools that could have registered. I related to you that 2,000 did. The number of complaints, as such...

I just got a note: there were 16,000 schools that were eligible. The mathematics are simple: 16,000 minus 2,000, so 14,000 did not. We did receive a number of complaints, some from some school boards, some from one or two ministers of education in the provinces, relating to how we had gone about this, and I was able to explain to them how we had gone about it.

Was there another part of that question that I'm missing?

Mr. Ted White: Yes. What happened to the results?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: The results were posted on the Internet site that had been prepared for this, where the instructions on how to participate were elaborated, and that's it.

Mr. Ted White: Okay.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: They were just posted there, and they stayed there for a while. I suspect that site has now gone, but I'm not sure.

A voice: I think it might still be up.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: It could still be up, but it is not part of the Elections Canada site.

With respect to the Internet site at Elections Canada and access to the names of MPs and so on and so forth, that's just a matter of establishing a hot link with the Parliament of Canada site and having a heading that says that this is how you achieve it. I wouldn't want to just duplicate the information. That would be a waste of cyberspace.

Mr. Ted White: My specific question, though, was related to the postal code information. We had asked you—

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Oh, yes.

Mr. Ted White: —during Bill C-2 about that particular aspect. How does a person know which riding they're in and a postal code...

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I'm sorry. I thought your question related only to who is the MP for the riding. In that respect, we can tie into this site, the site of the House of Commons.

With respect to the other one, we are working on what is called a “search engine”, which would allow this to happen through the Internet site.

Do you wish to add something to this, Patricia?

Ms. Patricia J. Hassard (Assistant Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): Yes.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Patricia Hassard will add to this, with your permission.

Mr. Ted White: Yes.

Ms. Patricia Hassard: It's one of the projects I'm working on. I think this is one of those situations where you have to walk before you can run. Ideally, any Canadian elector would be able to type in—at home or on the phone—their postal code and then receive information about what riding they're in and, in fact, what polling division they're in and where their polling place is. That is our ultimate objective.

But in order to do the improved service to the public, what we're trying to do is create the poll-key search engine, which draws from a number of databases, make sure the quality is high, and provide that to our telephone inquiries system. That's our first objective, and that is our objective for September 1. After that, we will be looking at what you're talking about, but it is one of those types of projects that we believe we should phase.

Mr. Ted White: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. White.

I'll now go to Madam Dalphond-Guiral.

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Kingsley, ladies, thank you for coming here.

You told us that Elections Canada should always be ready for an imminent election and always "be prepared", just like the scouts. I should tell you that the same thing applies to political parties.

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We currently have a problem. Bill C-2, which was adopted in speedy fashion by the House of Commons, is still in the Senate. I'd like to hear what you have to say on this issue. When will the Senate have completed its work and when will Royal Assent be given?

You mentioned in your presentation that there was a maximum six-month delay to apply the new legislation, but that you could table a notice that would shorten the implementation of the bill. You have surely thought about the delay which would seem applicable to you and about how you would manage all of this. Could you tell us about your thoughts?

My third question deals with the tasks that the various political parties must assume, specifically the creation and the presentation of reports to the Chief Electoral Officer. July is coming up quite soon, in less than six weeks. I would like to know pursuant to which bill our reports will be presented. I imagine that it would be under the legislation that is currently in force. If, for example, the bill received Royal Assent on June 24, and you tabled your notice on June 25, it would be difficult to ask people to produce a report under the terms of the new legislation.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I will answer certain points and then I will ask Ms. Vézina to complete my answers.

As to Bill C-2, which is currently at third reading before the Senate, I have no idea when the Senate will adopt it. I really can't say anything about that. It is up to the Senators to do their work as they see fit.

Obviously, the issue is always the same: Elections Canada is an organization that is very date dependent. When the House of Commons takes the time required to do its work, it does so; when the Senate does so, it's the same thing. At a certain point in time, the Chief Electoral Officer is told: “Here's the new legislation. It is now up to you to implement it and you just have six months to do it.”

This leads me to respond to your second question. I mentioned in my text that I had settled on September 1 as a convergence date for all the planning and all the special projects which are currently in the works. Obviously, I am waiting for C-2 to become law before making any definitive statement.

Each week that goes by delays my ability to put C-2 into implementation by a week, but I can tell you what I intend to do, because I think that that is important for you to know.

Inasmuch as possible, I want to ensure that the new legislation will be in force in time for the next general elections. I don't know how I could deal with elections where new legislation has been adopted, but where the Chief Electoral Officer did not have enough time to complete his work, and where Canadians would then have to deal with an election under the old legislation. I must admit that I really don't like to think about it.

This leads me to say that I will do everything in my power to ensure that everything is ready towards September 1, including the implementation of Bill C-2. But I must admit that if it is delayed and continues to be delayed... No one can be expected to accomplish the impossible.

As to the third element that you raised, the case of the reports which must be tabled by July 1, namely June 30th next, this will be done under the current legislation since that is the only legislation in force. However, if the new legislation came into force between now and then, reports would have to be tabled under the current legislation.

And now I will ask Janice to explain the interim measures.

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[English]

Ms. Janice Vézina (Director of Election Financing, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): The section in Bill C-2 is clause 555. It explains the timing of the reports based on whether the bill comes into force prior to June 30 or following July 1. So in the case you've described, what Mr. Kinglsey has said is quite correct, that the reports due July 1 are in fact under the current act. So again, it will all depend on the timing of the passage for future years' reports, but for this July 1 it's under the current act.

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: I can't stop myself from sharing something with you. I find it rather unseemly—and I'm choosing my words very carefully here—that after the House of Commons dealt very quickly with Bill C-2, thus reflecting the urgency and the imperative need to get the matter dealt with the Other Place is proceeding at a snail's space. I'm not expecting them to be swift as the wind, but I think that to show concern for democracy, to demonstrate a certain respect for democracy, the Other Place should speed the process up somewhat.

I'm not asking my colleagues to nod in agreement with me, but I would tend to believe that I am not the only person around this table to be of this opinion and that there is a certain support for what I'm saying.

I have another question. Based on what you have said, you firmly intend to ensure that the next election will proceed under the new legislation. Am I to understand that you are going to have some extraordinary power over the Prime Minister, who is the only person who may decide when an election is to be held? If this is the case, I'm delighted to hear it.

Furthermore, where are we in the whole area of training political staff? God only knows that there is a lot of training provided by Elections Canada, but within the ridings, a certain number of people must be trained as well in order to ensure the fair and accurate expression of the citizen's will.

Experience has shown that where training is concerned, it is better to do it sooner rather than later and let people know what to expect. Are you telling me today that we can proceed pursuant to C-2 and that there won't be anything else? Or are you telling me that there will have to be two types of training, one for the old legislation and one for the new?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: All I'm saying is that I have put my team on alert. It is up to you to act as you see fit. I read the papers and I take that information into account. That is why I set September 1 as a target date for planning. If there were a general election before that date, we would be able to deliver the goods, but if this election is held afterwards, the process will be based on a certain number of new computer products that will allow us to better manage the election, such as the “revise” project.

Training will take place this summer, without a doubt. That is a concrete plan that I provided you with. We have reserved all the required rooms. It is the last major training session for all of the staff before the general election, whether it takes place in September or October of the year 2000, or in September or October of next year.

If ever there was to be other training, it would be a more specific type of training based on the new systems that we will have developed later on. That is still part of our plans. After September 1, we will be in the new planning phase. If we go until the spring, there will have been other improvements made.

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That is how planning is done. It's the only way to plan in a regime where one doesn't know when a general election may be called.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Kingsley and Madame Dalphond-Guiral, for putting on the record the complexity involved in planning for likely changes in the law. It's not easy.

I'll go to Mr. St-Julien, and then to Mr. Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Mr. Kingsley, first of all, I would like to congratulate your team for the excellent work they do in your offices; these people also provide us with very useful information regarding our ridings. And I would like to indicate that we have a wonderful collaboration with them and receive excellent service from them.

On page 11 of your brief, you mention 18-year-olds, new Canadians and Aboriginal Canadians. You never mention the Inuit, whereas we know that the term Aboriginal Canadian does not include the Inuit. In the future, we would appreciate that Elections Canada specify in its documents that the Inuit are also part of our system. That's just a little comment.

I now have a question on schedules 1, 2 and 3. On what principles are they based? You could respond in writing to the committee if you prefer. On what principles are schedules 1, 2 and 3 based? Or were they established based on geography, the number of voters, or something else?

In the Estimates and in your brief, there's mention made of electoral geography. We know that schedules 1, 2 and 3 do not deal with the geographical aspect, the percentage in square footage or in square kilometres as it relates to the population in the area; it doesn't mention electors. So upon what are schedules 1, 2 and 3 based?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: First of all, with regard to the first question or the first comment, there is no doubt in my mind that the term Aboriginal Canadians includes the Inuit. That is part of our plans. When we establish our links with Aboriginal groups, we also establish links with the Inuit. We have done so in the past. For the referendum in 1992, the question was written in 21 Native languages, including two Inuit languages, if not three.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Very well.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I don't think that there is any other parliamentary or government agency which has used as many Native languages. As well, we have an oral version of the question available in some ten other Native languages, including Inuit languages.

As to the famous schedule 3, the response is very complicated. Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I will give a written explanation to the committee as to the rules which set the basis for this appendix. I understand the importance of this issue to members. Because of all the changes which were made to the Elections Act, it has become of secondary interest at Elections Canada, but it is of great interest to the members of Parliament.

We follow the legislation to the letter, but it is so complicated that I can't remember it by heart. I don't think that either of my colleagues know it by heart either. So I would like to respond in writing and thus respond to the question asked by Mr. St-Julien.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: In the response that you will provide, it would also be important for you to tell us when was the last time that these schedules were revised.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We will send you that information. I will also share with you the results in order that you may be aware of what was done in each riding.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Perfect.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Thank you.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: I'd now like to get back to the voters' list for the general elections leading to the 36th Legislature. I have here the list that was produced by Elections Canada.

You often mention members' interests. As far as I'm concerned, the interests of the people are more important. As to enumerations in the ridings, we know that they are never 100% accurate.

In certain ridings the population is quite old; in others, the population is very young. And there's also the Aboriginal aspect, the Inuit aspect.

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I have your list here. You mentioned the population numbers for 1996; you have the final list of electors and the square kilometre area. Often, federal or provincial departments, even those in Quebec, use the 1996 Statistics Canada census to create a certain number of lists. They base their calculations on the census data of 1996, a process which lasted a week. As far as I'm concerned, this list is outdated in terms of how it represents the demographics.

I will use my own riding as an example, Abitibi—Baie- James—Nunavik. It covers 802,000 square kilometres, has a population of 95,000 individuals and 65,000 electors. It is the largest riding of all ten provinces. The smallest riding is that of Gilles Duceppe, of the Bloc Québécois. It covers nine square kilometres, has a population of 96,000, as does mine, and 72,000 electors. I know that in the greater riding of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, the census is 100% accurate. We are low on the number of electors and that is reflected in the budgets. When the budgets are created at the House of Commons pursuant to schedules 1, 2 and 3, that is reflected. How is it that Elections Canada does not use the census data to create these schedules?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Part of your question, if I have understood it correctly, goes back to the previous question about how schedules 1, 2 and 3 were established. I would like to cover that in the answer I will provide you in writing, because I do not have that information at my fingertips.

As regards what you call enumeration or the census, you are aware that with the permanent electoral list, Elections Canada no longer does census enumeration, generally speaking. Elections Canada does not depend on Statistics Canada to establish the voters' list. This data has nothing to do with that. They use the data that was collected during the 1997 general election, with the updates that have been done since. It goes even farther than that.

With the candidates, the parties and your representatives, our returning officers are currently identifying areas where mobility is high. They are currently identifying places, like apartment buildings, where mobility is high, places where there are new urban developments, areas where there are lots of seniors or students so that we can target our efforts during the next campaign. That way, we will be able to obtain the names of these people during the review process. We will call it a registration form. We will use the word "registration", because the word "revision" doesn't mean anything to most people. That is what it is in the end.

So we don't rely on what the other departments have done. We do it ourselves, based on what you tell the returning officer, in the event that you run in the next election, based on what the other candidates say and based on our own knowledge. The work is done in the field by the returning officers. That is why it is important for people in the riding to hold these positions, and that is covered in the Act.

Finally, as you say in English, the name of the game is doing the review during the election campaign and working in very close co-operation with the returning officer so that we can get all of these names. We plan to use additional measures so that the authorized revising officers can automatically add the names and go door-to-door in these areas that we have targeted, or that returning officers will target with the candidates, so that we can make sure we have as complete a list as possible.

Moreover, bear in mind that the federal Act, which is extremely wise in many cases, includes registration, on polling day, for people who have been left out despite all of these efforts.

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I can assure you that during our advertising campaign, we will tell people to show up with minimal identification, not with a voter's card since we don't have any, but with a minimal identification card. We will also have a list to make the job easier.

As regards the list, if I've understood the second part of your question correctly, I can assure you that we were aiming to create a list that is as complete as possible and better than the one that existed when we went door-to-door.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: I have one last very short question. You say that you do not rely on the other departments, but one thing is important in rural areas, in regions that are isolated from large urban centres: you never mention in your lists how many municipalities there are per riding.

Some say one mayor, one city. I know that there are some ridings that are nine square kilometres and only have one mayor's office. Some large isolated rural ridings have 68 mayors in 68 municipalities. That is demanding and that is reflected in the House of Commons in the members' budgets, regardless of the political party.

We should have a list for each area, so that we know how many municipalities there are in each federal riding.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I have heard the member's comments, and I will come back to that point in my written response.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: That's good, thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Kingsley, you mentioned training for the returning officers and the essential members of their staff.

Have you ever thought of applying that to the political party's official agents, especially since this is a new Act? That is one of the suggestions I wanted to make.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: As regards political parties, they were invited to go to Elections Canada, in the event that the Act is adopted between now and June 9, to attend a day-long information session on the new Act.

It is valuable not only for the five political parties that are registered and represented in the House of Commons, but also for the two or three other parties that have requested to be registered for the next election, so that all parties, existing or budding, benefit from this knowledge. It is up to the parties to decide how many people and whom they will send to these information sessions.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Will the sessions be held in the regions or here, in Ottawa?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: It is a session that will be held with the Advisory Committee. That is part of the answer.

The other part is that there will be particular sessions, though our financial sector, at the start of the event. We will go to each region of the country to provide training, in the official language requested by the elections officials who work for the political parties, so that we can update them on the financial aspects.

As for the other aspects, I will have to see if other training sessions could be offered to these people. I thank you for the suggestion, as for the time being, nothing else is scheduled.

When we meet the political parties during the training session on the bill, if it is adopted, we will ask them their opinion, how to proceed with the official agents for the parties in the regions, to see what they suggest and what we can agree on. I thank you for the suggestion. We will follow up on it.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In Canada, we have two official languages, English and French, but in urban centres like Toronto, there are people who don't speak either of these languages. They are newcomers, immigrants.

There are many in British Columbia, for example, who only speak Chinese or another Asian language. What do you do to try to provide them with information on elections in Canada?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: During an election campaign, and even beforehand, since I foresee the need for some advertising to inform Canadians, we advertize in the newspapers and on the radio in languages other than English and French. That allows us to reach Canadians of Chinese descent. We advertize in about 30 different languages, the 30 most-used languages, so that we can provide Canadians with information on the right to vote, the election day, etc. We provide basic information on the Canadian electoral process.

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Mr. Yvon Godin: You mentioned the low voter turnout among young people. I would like to make a suggestion in that regard. Why not make an effort to go into colleges and universities and set up an advertising program targeting young people? They could be introduced to it when they complete their grade 12, for example, or even during grade 12, and then in college and university.

It would raise their awareness for the rest of their lives and enable them to understand what an election is all about and how important it is. It is not about politics, but about going into the classrooms to directly explain our democracy in Canada, especially since we know that we will have an election soon. It is in the air. We read the newspapers. As members, even we don't know.

I think that would be a suggestion to reach young people.

A voice: It will be soon.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, it's coming. We are not getting farther away; we are getting closer to an election.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I could not agree with you more.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We plan to set up special projects for young people before they finish their secondary schooling. We are going to go to existing channels so that it becomes, as much as possible, part of each province's curriculum, since education is a provincial jurisdiction.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I have another question. During the election in St. John's-West, we saw that people were not registered with Elections Canada. Earlier on, you mentioned minimal identification. Why not allow these people who are not registered to take an oath? That would make the process much simpler, because we really had problems in St. John's West.

[English]

Ms. Patricia Hassard: I think one aspect in Bill C-2 that may address your question is the ability to vouch for a spouse where there is no suitable identification. That will still exist. And the practice of vouching will be available across the country, rather than only in rural ridings.

We're also looking very closely at the whole question of identification requirement for voters. It's a new policy that we are developing. We'll make some changes in terms of voters who do not have a permanent residence. We will be looking at the list of dormeurs in shelters and proposing that be used as proof of address.

We are looking very carefully at those requirements to try to make them as flexible as possible and still maintain the integrity of the system. It's something we've discussed at some length with the advisory committee of political parties, and we have a draft proposal to make to them in June.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Monsieur Godin.

I will now go to Mr. Kilger, Mr. Pickard, and then back for some second rounds.

Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, Lib.): I pass.

The Chairman: Okay. Mr. Pickard.

Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Thank you very much for coming today, Mr. Kingsley and staff.

I'm interested in the area or the role you are taking in looking at groups that I could suggest are possibly disenfranchised. We talk of the youth, we talk of new Canadians, we talk of the disabled, we talk of people with limited literacy. Do you have reasons why these people are disenfranchised or represent low percentage voter turnout, however you wish to examine that, and are you trying to implement means by which you can eliminate barriers?

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Obviously, with the disabled or homebound people, it may well be the barrier of getting the vote out. But in other cases, it seems to me that you may be taking on a role in which I'm not sure you can be the agent of change for large groups, because this may be a cyclical thing in Canada where at one point we may have a higher voter turnout and at other times a lower voter turnout, depending upon the differences people see in the political system and the political structure.

Things do change. People become more remote from issues that may be debated. As a result, is it really the role of Elections Canada to try to move that percentage up, or is it more the role of the political system in the country to make sure the issues are out to the public and heard well? Maybe the political parties should be reaching out more, if that is the case, and they may not be doing their jobs as well as they should. But the reality, from my viewpoint, is how much of a change can you create by focusing on youth or focusing on various groups? In some cases, does that affect how you can reach out generally to the whole public?

In general terms, if we're declining in votes it's a political process that isn't working as well as it should. Is it really the role of Elections Canada to try to change that?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: In my introductory remarks I was indicating that I view this as a problem, because I think it is a problem—it's a personal view, but it's reflected by many people—that has many facets. As you say, some of them relate to how people relate to politics or how politics relate to people or how political parties relate to people.

What I was trying to allude to is the fact that under the act I do have a responsibility to reach out to Canadians and educate them about the process. What we're trying to do is to find smarter ways of doing that. In other words, to me it's not acceptable that a Canadian who is a shut-in, who could have voted by special ballot, did not vote by special ballot because he or she did not know they could vote by special ballot. I view that as something that is not acceptable and on which I have to find a method to reach out more.

With those people, we reach out to the groups that usually represent them. For shut-ins it's not always easy to know who represents them, but sometimes they'll belong to another group and we establish linkages with those groups. The Association for Community Living is an example. Our efforts were recognized when a national award was given by them two years ago. But we continue to reach out to groups like that to find out—and we're trying to do this with aboriginal groups as well—what is the best way for us to frame a message that will reach that population so that we will be able to convey our message about the electoral process. That's what we do.

Mr. Jerry Pickard: Thinking about that, though, you need the reason why they are low percentage. I think in cases where people are homebound, there's a very obvious reason why, and there are things we can do to accomplish that aim. But I'm not sure it's so obvious with youth or with aboriginal peoples or with new Canadians as clearly as it is with shut-ins.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: This is why I think it's important to reach out to the people who represent them, where it is possible to do so. We need to ask them what is the best way to reach the people they represent for the kind of message we're transmitting. And that's what we're doing. In other words, we're trying to gear the message about the importance of the electoral process, their right to participate, different instruments that are available to them to facilitate the vote, and make sure they understand that. That's what we're trying to do.

Mr. Jerry Pickard: Okay. So this is an in-process means that you're working at right now, rather than having specific solutions for those problems that exist.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: That's right.

Mr. Jerry Pickard: Okay, thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Pickard.

Now to second rounds. Mr. White.

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Mr. Ted White: Yes, thank you, Mr. Lee.

With respect to voter turnout as a whole, not restricted to one particular group, I would just make the observation that if you look worldwide, it seems to me the more responsive a government is to the will of its voters, the lower the voter turnout. In Switzerland, for example, 17% on average turn out to vote. In Canadian municipal elections 14% turn out to vote, because the government is very responsive. On the other hand, if you look at dictatorships, they have extremely high voter turnout because it's compulsory to go.

So I would make the observation that I'm not too worried about voter turnout, because the lower it is, the more democratic the government. I'm just giving you an interesting thing to think about there and to draw your own conclusions from.

My question is with regard to Elections Canada international projects, missions to other countries. How is that paid for? Does it come out of the Elections Canada budget? Do you have to cover the cost of the staff time for that? Do the other countries help contribute or does it come out of other government departments within Canada?

As well, to follow up on the earlier question about the schedule of fees for returning officers and deputy returning officers, is that list of fees published anywhere such that we can get hold of it, or is it a secret list that's only seen by the Governor in Council?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: This is a very public document, sir, and it's available. I don't know if it's on the website, but certainly it's available. I would be more than happy to share it with this committee at any time.

Mr. Ted White: Then I would request a copy of that.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: I'd be more than happy to provide it to you.

With respect to the funding of international activities, very few people at Elections Canada actually go out and do work on the international scene. For the very few who do, their salary comes out of the main allocation. The travel and other expenditures generally are met by another party, either another government department or sometimes an international association, such as IDEA, which is Stockholm-based, or the United Nations. La Francophonie, for instance, for whom I'm doing work right now, is paying for my travel and my lodging and so on and so forth.

When there are missions that involve a lot of people we utilize former returning officers or people who used to work at Elections Canada. At Elections Canada we are refunded by whichever is the sponsoring agency. If it's CIDA, then we're paid for everything that we pay for. If it's United Nations, then it's United Nations. We do not pay for that.

The rates are recommended by me but they are set by the agencies that do the funding. We try to establish some kind of rationale on the rates so that there's no overbidding.

Whenever I pay, then, I'm reimbursed fully.

Mr. Ted White: Thank you.

The Chairman: Madam Dalphond-Guiral.

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Mr. Chairman, I have a short question.

In your presentation, you said that at the start of the year, you had asked returning officers to draw up an inventory of areas where it would be appropriate to have “elector registration initiatives”. I imagine that if you got the ball rolling at the start of February, the work must be nearing completion.

Could you send the various political parties information regarding the number of revising agents—I do not know what they will be called—that will be required? That way, we will be in a position to find people who are able to do the best job possible. We know that the less time we have to find people, the harder it is.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: As regards the anticipated number of people, we are currently in the process of determining the number for each riding, with each returning officer, based on the work that has already been done, as you say.

I will ask them to send the information on to the parties, the members, and the candidates as soon as it is available to make the job easier for you, so that you know if you need 30 or 300 people, because that is a significant margin. I appreciate your recommendation.

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: My friend opposite will need 300.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Okay.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you, madam.

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Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: The suggestion is well founded and we will act on it accordingly.

Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Godin, we're into the second round.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like to ask a short question. You are aware that Lorne Nystrom tabled a bill in the House on proportional representation. I would like to know how interested you are in that, and I would also like you to share your ideas with us if you can.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: We held a day-long session on the topic with the political party advisory committee, and the results are posted on the Elections Canada Internet site. We talk about different models, their advantages and disadvantages, and the role of Elections Canada. That is where we are at for the time being.

[English]

The Chairman: Well done.

I have a very short question.

In your opening statement, Mr. Kingsley, you indicated savings of approximately $30 million in the construction of the voters list in an election. I think that's what you said, that there were savings of that nature.

We're all delighted around the table here and in the House to see savings, and those are substantial, but is that $30 million a net figure, net of the other costs of creating and maintaining a list, or is that actually the true net savings after the other costs are absorbed?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: The $30 million savings that were alluded to in my opening remarks are directly attributable to the fact that we will be utilizing the register instead of door-to-door enumeration. Those are net savings that take into account the $5 million or so that we utilize every year to maintain the register and operating costs. In effect, the $50 million gross savings translate to $30 million. That was the business case that we exposed to you, and we're doing better than the business case.

For those of you who are interested, the last general election and enumeration cost $201 million. The next election will cost $1 million less, including all of the rate increases and all of the additional polling sites because of increases in populations. That's in part a reflection of that $30 million savings.

The Chairman: Well, that's great. For all of us who vote the money, those kinds of savings, substantial as they are, are very gratifying. Thank you for outlining that to us.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Julien.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Mr. Chairman, can Mr. Kingsley tell us when we will get an answer to the questions I asked?

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: Since I only have one question to answer, I should be in a position to do it very quickly. Let's say you will have an answer within two weeks.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Kingsley: If my staff tell me again that I have promised something impossible, I will get back to you with the new date.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you very much.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you. I'm sure Mr. St-Julien is satisfied with that response.

If there is no further discussion, I will put the question on vote 20 of the estimates.

It is moved by Mr. Kilger that vote 20 under Privy Council, less the amount voted in interim supply, carry.

(Motion agreed to)

PRIVY COUNCIL

Chief Electoral Officer

Vote 20—Program expenditures ...... $3,065,000

(Vote 20 agreed to)

The Chairman: Thank you.

We have a little bit of business. I would like to ask for a steering committee meeting on Monday, May 29, at 3:30 p.m. That is the date of the return of the House after the one-week break. This would be a steering committee to focus on the work that will follow later in the week.

On Tuesday morning our business is the consideration of a draft report on the work of the legislative counsel and confidentiality, but on the steering community we have to get our heads around the future business dealing with the Standing Orders, etc.

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Seeing no objection, I'll take that as agreement, colleagues. The clerk will advise all of us.

Seeing no further business, we can adjourn. Thank you.